AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

But then most or all story related content is solo, DE expects players to achieve quests on players on their own as an axiom, otherwise this wouldnt be the case, co op is more like a candy and extra 

That's irrelevant as players aren't coming to the forums to complain about what someone else did in their story related content.

The bulk of this game is in modes that can be played Co-Op. Story content accounts for a small fraction of what gets done in this game running at ~45 minutes per quest. 

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

Maybe go download the destiny forums and read.  These are the exact same reason that game is falling off the map.

Bungie thinks that if something is working too good they nerf it or remove it from the inventory.  Same crap different game.

This game was fun till I hit L2 because there was always something to do.  Now it's mind numbing. 13 planets or more with the same exact mission as a defense is a defense is a defense no matter how you slice it.  

Nerfing just reduces player interest and it's sort of a slap in the face to earn items and create builds only for them to just take them or nerf them.

I'm not going to spend time trying to create builds for guns and Warframes only to be told sorry it's working too good we're changing it.

Then again I am just one player so who cares right.  Trust me there are numerous players talking about the same thing and leaving.

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

Maybe go download the destiny forums and read.  These are the exact same reason that game is falling off the map.

Bungie thinks that if something is working too good they nerf it or remove it from the inventory.  Same crap different game.

This game was fun till I hit L2 because there was always something to do.  Now it's mind numbing. 13 planets or more with the same exact mission as a defense is a defense is a defense no matter how you slice it.  

Nerfing just reduces player interest and it's sort of a slap in the face to earn items and create builds only for them to just take them or nerf them.

I'm not going to spend time trying to create builds for guns and Warframes only to be told sorry it's working too good we're changing it.

Then again I am just one player so who cares right.  Trust me there are numerous players talking about the same thing and leaving.

Sounds more like you are looking for reasons to quit more than anything else mate, and you want someone to say some magic words to bring you back the same joy you felt when you first started.

I don't know what to tell you mate.

Maybe take a break , see if that helps.

[_LotusPrime_]

On 2022-08-29 at 7:06 PM, Padre_Akais said:

That's irrelevant as players aren't coming to the forums to complain about what someone else did in their story related content.

The bulk of this game is in modes that can be played Co-Op. Story content accounts for a small fraction of what gets done in this game running at ~45 minutes per quest. 

So whats your point exactly? Just because co op has been utilized more should mean aoe bad? Its ruining whose experince exactly, i would argue people that complain about aoes being used is a small but vocal minority, most people kinda get along in pubs to finish the misdion and that is if there is no host abondon at hand..         

 

You also didnt adres my point with DE already expecting players to hande content solo on axiom basis with the story content, this doesnt matter if story content is focused less than co op, one cant go far without being able to solo content, which also serves as a small proggression wall, which is good i think

 

On 2022-08-29 at 6:24 PM, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

aoe weapons are not the only way to take care of killing large groups of enemies there are many ways to kill hoards.  There are CC abilities for frames and lets you line up head shots as you like after dealing with exmus enemies firs.  there is multiple frames with area damage that are not being nerfed.  there are weapons like the Nukor which is not aoe by definition its a single target weapon that chainligntings to the next closest enemie in a certain distance.

 

All this argument equalls into 😭😭😭 they took away my ability to be lazy

Can you give a point without being sentimental.. 

 

The concern isnt the small nerf itself but the approach

[pinkxblack]

i dont understand that kinda point of view, you want a easy way go public, you want some challenge go solo, or you want both team up, there are rooms for everybody! well if only DE realize that...

[_LotusPrime_]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

1:  I can only go off of what i've seen from you since I do not know you personally.  The extremist perspective you present only logically makes sense to be held if you either a) have a very vested interest in said grouping of weapons or b) you are ignorant.  Those are the only two scenarios I can imagine where someone would seriously believe that AoE is going to be so harshly adjusted that it will no longer be a viable option.  If that is not actually you're stance then you should present yourself better.  Because saying things like "lets not kill the choice in the frigin game" certainly comes off as you stating that.

 

2: This point makes no sense because the changes being made are not targeted at making enemies themselves more interesting and fun to interact with.  Nor are they system wide changes to change WF's formulaic nature from solving a puzzle to gameplay that involves heavy mechanical skill.  The goal is to make AoE weapons on their own less effective.  However as i've pointed out twice already because this change is shipping along side a giant nerf to armor unless DE also stealth buffs enemy HP values the only thing that's changing for chad AoE players is having to armor strip first.  Which at most will need 2 casts in a vast majority of situations and you will not need to heavily invest into strength to make that happen.

 

3: Reining in AoE to a reasonable degree does not change that at all.  My point about advertisement doesn't literally mean what DE shows people.  What I mean is whenever WF drops a significant content release Youtube gets flooded with WF videos from dedicated WF players that will show off the game's sore points usually unintentionally.  And one of WF's only sins with actual gameplay (as there are very few) is how easy and effective it is to turn the game into a point and click simulator.  That's not entertaining to watch.  Nor is it something people would usually want to opt to do once they reach the peak of the game.  But many end up doing so because it's the most effective route to get to things they want.  DE wanting to change that is perfectly fine.

My usual weapons loadout is a bow primary, my tombfinger kit gun, and a katana zaw.  If i'm playing on Gauss it's usually the fulmin since it has both a full auto mode as well as a shotgun mode.  I used to religiously use Tigris prime and Vacor hek when I was a lower MR but shotguns as a whole outside the tenat plasmor have fallen off pretty hard.  For me it's less about enjoying shotguns as a weapon in the game and more I like punch through as a weapon characteristic and Shotguns are the most known for it outside of bows.

I didn't include the shard system in my points because I can't imagine getting one shard is going to have a huge impact on most frame's gameplay.  Once enough time has passed to where 5 shards are reasonable for people to have then yeah i'd say it's fair to include them in builds.  Most people at this point should have Arcanes, focus, and subsume being used to some degree.  So the change to the armor system should be immediately felt by most players.

1 - still bad faith

2- i dont get what makes you think people that defend aoe cant armor strip or slash proc... Literally not even a point you just make a strawman and attack it

3-warframe has always been an easy game if one knows how to damage and never been much enjoyable to watch unless its a New open world with a new mechanic or thing to be excited about. What ever DE does they wont be competing daily views on twitch or youtube streams against moba or fps genre its simply not possible, some games are Just not built for that 

[Rakosta_Kai]

11 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

So whats your point exactly? Just because co op has been utilized more should mean aoe bad? Its ruining whose experince exactly, i would argue people that complain about aoes being used is a small but vocal minority, most people kinda get along in pubs to finish the misdion and that is if there is no host abondon at hand.. 

My point is the same one you read and commented to a few posts up and it hasn't changed.
It's even got numbers next to it and everything...

You are free to espouse any opinion you like but none of them, so far, have the benefit of being supported by facts.
Facts are what actually count— and the facts are that they changed AOE because of those complaints and their findings on investigating them. 

 

17 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

You also didnt adres my point with DE already expecting players to hande content solo on axiom basis with the story content, this doesnt matter if story content is focused less than co op, one cant go far without being able to solo content, which also serves as a small proggression wall, which is good i think

Sure, I did...
Your own comments here directly support that I did just, in fact, that.

Progression walls, axioms, and story content are strawmen in an AOE discussion and, as such, are irrelevant to the point.

 

[_LotusPrime_]

7 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

My point is the same one you read and commented to a few posts up and it hasn't changed.
It's even got numbers next to it and everything...

You are free to espouse any opinion you like but none of them, so far, have the benefit of being supported by facts.
Facts are what actually count— and the facts are that they changed AOE because of those complaints and their findings on investigating them. 

 

Sure, I did...
Your own comments here directly support that I did just, in fact, that.

Progression walls, axioms, and story content are strawmen in an AOE discussion and, as such, are irrelevant to the point.

 

Lets see you drop this low key aggressive speech and tell me the 'facts' straight up without Word salad Okay? Can you do that for me

In internet you can say facts as if you have the upper hand inwhile you write, when in actuality Facts mean empirical evidence and data which has enough sample size, which statistic you are talking about? 

 

Its not a secret that most people dont care about aoe being used in pubs, to be fair i dont have a Hard data neither but nor you do, yet you speak so loud and aggro with no clue to back it up

 

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb _LotusPrime_:

Aoe is so disruptive in which missions that everyones involved? Do you mean pubs? Why should pubs be the determinator of balance when most the time you fight 30 lvl enemies, in rare occasion its lvl 120

There is no difference between lvl 30 or lvl 120 or even 200... AOE weapons dominate everything. Put your money where your mouth is... play an Exterminate in Steel Path with me, I pick Zarr/Bramma, you pick Incarnon weapon. Let us see who gets more kills. Then I show you determinator of balance.

[_LotusPrime_]

4 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

There is no difference between lvl 30 or lvl 120 or even 200... AOE weapons dominate everything. Put your money where your mouth is... play an Exterminate in Steel Path with me, I pick Zarr/Bramma, you pick Incarnon weapon. Let us see who gets more kills. Then I show you determinator of balance.

Why should i care about kda racing in pubs, thats more like a 'you' thing if thats what you care about in pubs because i certainly dont 

 

Shows more proof with single target players care about kda racing and hence why they are mad but thats noones Business, youre making that a problem yourself 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 1 Minute schrieb _LotusPrime_:

Why should i care about kda racing in pubs, thats more like a 'you' thing if thats what you care about in pubs because i certainly dont 

 

Shows more proof with single target players care about kda racing and hence why they are mad but thats noones Business, youre making that a problem yourself 

It is always the same with people like you. You make an argument, I counter it, you completely ignore what I said and go to the next argument. Good luck getting your point across

[Rakosta_Kai]

11 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Lets see you drop this low key aggressive speech and tell me the 'facts' straight up without Word salad Okay? Can you do that for me

It would appear you've jumped from strawmen to ad hominems...
TBH, I'm not sure how you find facts aggressive, find yourself incapable of scrolling up, or of simply reading any of the things you've replied to already.

That said, if you want a "real conversation" then we can have that one right after you post that request on your actual account... As opposed to shielding your passive aggressive behavior on that days old account instead. 😀

 

11 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Its not a secret that most people dont care about aoe being used in pubs, to be fair i dont have a Hard data neither but nor you do, yet you speak so loud and aggro with no clue to back it up

Apparently, it's fairly poorly kept given the state of the first page of the forums for the last eight months or so...

 

[_LotusPrime_]

1 minute ago, Dunkelheit said:

It is always the same with people like you. You make an argument, I counter it, you completely ignore what I said and go to the next argument. Good luck getting your point across

I adressed your argument and didnt ignore it. 

 

You are looking for a dps race in a public matchmaking, that is not why most people do pubs, as, simple as, that 

 

If you dont like what i say, you dont like what i say, but dont lie because i exactly gave a fair counter argument, alright? 

 

Is it hard to be level headed in these forums or what, you post something on forums, someone adresses it, you dont like the way oerson adreesses to your initial post and then you say the person didnt adress it.... If you dont rxpect a possible counter response i dont know what to say

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Is it hard to be level headed in these forums or what, you post something on forums, someone adresses it, you dont like the way oerson adreesses to your initial post and then you say the person didnt adress it.... If you dont rxpect a possible counter response i dont know what to say

↓

20 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Lets see you drop this low key aggressive speech and tell me the 'facts' straight up without Word salad Okay? Can you do that for me

In internet you can say facts as if you have the upper hand inwhile you write, when in actuality Facts mean empirical evidence and data which has enough sample size, which statistic you are talking about? 

 

Its not a secret that most people dont care about aoe being used in pubs, to be fair i dont have a Hard data neither but nor you do, yet you speak so loud and aggro with no clue to back it up

You should, perhaps, consider taking your own advice...

[_LotusPrime_]

11 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

↓

You should, perhaps, consider taking your own advice...

 

20 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

It would appear you've jumped from strawmen to ad hominems...
TBH, I'm not sure how you find facts aggressive, find yourself incapable of scrolling up, or of simply reading any of the things you've replied to already.

That said, if you want a "real conversation" then we can have that one right after you post that request on your actual account... As opposed to shielding your passive aggressive behavior on that days old account instead. 😀

 

Apparently, it's fairly poorly kept given the state of the first page of the forums for the last eight months or so...

 

So Basically you cant give statistics as to whatever you are saying 'as a fact' 

 

Pretty much sums it up with your " real conversation"  or lack there of, only posture no substance :) 

 

For such debate posturing rhetoric, suprisingly you have no substance, i mean i expected some resistence, sadly i cant even have that, Just Word salad

 

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

So Basically you cant give statistics as to whatever you are saying 'as a fact' 

You don't need a statistic insomuch as you need to watch the last devstream where the Devs outright tell you that's why they are making the changes.

Did you do that before you trotted that day's old account on to the forums to spout endlessly about why it should be changed in the world according to you?

Do that and then come back...

[pinkxblack]

clearly, there are two different player groups here such as SIMARIS fans and "old school tenno" if they called? DE tryna do is overpower one side of the people regardless what game mode they set up, its like CC debate all over again, remember how many people cant finish the mobile defence mission on Zariman until Thrax get nerfed down, comes to AOE changes could be a long way to go i assume...

[_LotusPrime_]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

You don't need a statistic insomuch as you need to watch the last devstream where the Devs outright tell you that's why they are making the changes.

Did you do that before you trotted that day's old account on to the forums to spout endlessly about why it should be changed in the world according to you?

Do that and then come back...

Do you mean the devstream where they shoot lvl 30 s again? 

[Rakosta_Kai]

14 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Do you mean the devstream where they shoot lvl 30 s again? 

Devstream163

They shoot level 30's in most of the Devstreams so your description doesn't narrow the field by much.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

1 - still bad faith

kay.

3 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

2- i dont get what makes you think people that defend aoe cant armor strip or slash proc... Literally not even a point you just make a strawman and attack it

I don't even imply that so that's just you reading something that isn't there.  I merely pointed out the logical path that will be taken once the change goes live which also shows that AoE weapons will still be more than viable.  Your whole position that I specifically tackled was making a claim that they're removing AoE as an option.

3 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

3-warframe has always been an easy game if one knows how to damage and never been much enjoyable to watch unless its a New open world with a new mechanic or thing to be excited about. What ever DE does they wont be competing daily views on twitch or youtube streams against moba or fps genre its simply not possible, some games are Just not built for that 

Yes, but just because it is easy doesn't mean balance adjustments can't nor shouldn't happen.  You're just straw manning and moving the goal post of the discussion now.  I've offered legitimate discussion points and you refuse to actually discuss any of them so i'm going to stop wasting both of our times here and just move on.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Padre_Akais:

Devstream163

They shoot level 30's in most of the Devstreams so your description doesn't narrow the field by much.

 

or they never play against higher enemies. hence the great balance.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

13 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

even with pimped kuva zarr i can't play gyre on sp vs ranged. and if aoe waepons gets completely ruined, what should i do here?
because ignis wraith doesn't do enough damage. and single target rifles have very modest performance.

 

What builds are you trying? 

Like Gyre, got it. Which single target guns, what primary, secondary, melee are you attempting with? What Arcane, what Focus School? Which companion? 

Yeah I am not a big fan of Ignis Wraith on Steel Path either. I think it can work with some builds/synergy, but if I am going to take a beam type weapon that burns enemies, I usually prefer Phantasma for Steel Path. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PSN)slightconfuzzled:

 

What builds are you trying? 

Like Gyre, got it. Which single target guns, what primary, secondary, melee are you attempting with? What Arcane, what Focus School? Which companion? 

Yeah I am not a big fan of Ignis Wraith on Steel Path either. I think it can work with some builds/synergy, but if I am going to take a beam type weapon that burns enemies, I usually prefer Phantasma for Steel Path. 

doesn't matter. I haven't been a beginner for ages.

gyre can survive against certain opponents with shield gating, rolling guard, vaz dash or whatever. at least until the first heat/gas/slash or whatever dot. and as soon as 3x nullifiers are on the map it gets even funnier....
but that way of playing is ridiculous in a pve game in my opinion.

and that gyre has 100 armor... that says it all. devs have no clue about the game. because gyre has neither def skills like mesa nor even defy from wukong. they design nonsense and hope that players will clean up the epic fail with helmith.
she's also a caster warframe (apparently?). should i mod it as a tank? just what for? inaros is EXTREMELY much better...

Ignis Wraith is fine. only the gun is more for mr9 people who want to farm their first sp arcanes.
Phantasma can't keep up with bubonico either. although bubonico is a rather average weapon.

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sounds more like you are looking for reasons to quit more than anything else mate, and you want someone to say some magic words to bring you back the same joy you felt when you first started.

I don't know what to tell you mate.

Maybe take a break , see if that helps.

Nah I don't need a reason to quit or stay.  It's just mind numbing to run a defense,rescue, mobile defense or any of the exact same missions with just a change of scenery.

Think about everything even the nightwave is boring. Go mine 6 rare gems or go capture 6 animals. Come on man it's a shooters game not a fishing trip or mining expedition.

I don't play much anymore and when I do it's just to help clan mates or get whatever trinket they peddle out.

I play Warzone now and it changes constantly. Every day there's new missions or challenges with more guns than imaginable.  Play for kills or go for the win depending on who you're running with but at least I feel like I'm earning something every match.  Weapon XP or rank XP, blueprints or operator stuff.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

doesn't matter. I haven't been a beginner for ages.

gyre can survive against certain opponents with shield gating, rolling guard, vaz dash or whatever. at least until the first heat/gas/slash or whatever dot. and as soon as 3x nullifiers are on the map it gets even funnier....
but that way of playing is ridiculous in a pve game in my opinion.

and that gyre has 100 armor... that says it all. devs have no clue about the game. because gyre has neither def skills like mesa nor even defy from wukong. they design nonsense and hope that players will clean up the epic fail with helmith.
she's also a caster warframe (apparently?). should i mod it as a tank? just what for? inaros is EXTREMELY much better...

Ignis Wraith is fine. only the gun is more for mr9 people who want to farm their first sp arcanes.
Phantasma can't keep up with bubonico either. although bubonico is a rather average weapon.

 

It does matter. Since I am going to take your answer, and then play Steel Path Zariman with it myself later today. With those weapons, school etc try to match your answer as close as possible. 

Not being a beginner isn't so much an issue. In another thread I talk about how I didn't find Nyx very strong. I didn't actually use Nyx at all, until after I was MR30. Always possible to learn new tricks and techniques that can help. I did, and now I think Nyx is powerful and she went from my least played Warframe, to one of my medium played.

Personally I don't shield gate with Gyre, I am too lazy to track/time it, don't use Vaz. I do use Rolling Guard. Rolling is simple enough for me, and good for cleanse. 

When I build Gyre, I think I go for range primarily. To enable her CC, soften up enemies to kill. I wouldn't build her like Inaros myself, since I think she stays alive better by using line of sight, cover, and jumping a lot. Many of her abilities CC, which means you can jump, avoid enemies, use power, group enemies closer, use your gun to kill them, and then continue process. Inaros can just run at enemies like a tank. I don't think you should do that with Gyre. 

What weapons do you consider better than Bubonico?