Warframe speculation: Joe mad's werewolf

[Abisma-Lunoire]

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

 

Yay those are pretty nice. The name my heart desires is Lykra 💗 

 

This is going to be her axe, and I think your suggestion of Bardoul is the perfect name for it👌 

Bardoul would be a nice weapon name maybe we will get both our wishes. Lykra seemed to be a popular choice for some :) GL to us both!

[EdinaMonsoon]

2 hours ago, Skaleek said:

All in the eye of the beholder. I can get on board with idea of enthrall being vampire-esque, since thralls are a vampire staple. I think arguing his 3 is vampire-like is stretching, just my opinion.

"Revenant's codename during development was Vlad, likely named after Vlad the Impaler who, in 1897, Irish writer Bram Stoker based the famous vampire "Count Dracula" off of. As described by Stoker, Count Dracula was an undead warlock that fed on human blood.

Revenant's abilities are also vampiric in nature:

  Enthrall converts others into loyal thralls, a trait in vampires.

  Mesmer Skin allows Revenant to cast Enthrall freely; vampires are capable of enthralling with their "mesmerizing" eyes.

  Reave turns Revenant into intangible mist, another trait in vampires. Additionally, vampires are famous for their ability to steal the life essence of their victims, with Reave displaying such trait when it passes through enemies and thralls"

[EdinaMonsoon]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

even his 4th could be considered a classic traditional ability in a way as some have a distract and redirect ability the "light show"  is just a game design trope as they do redirect incoming damage back into the beams.  something similar really was about only way they could of had that ability translate into game and stay on theme,  Do i agree with decision to make it hay look im a moving disco decoration no but that was De's decision and didnt exactly ask my input

they added the laser spin so he would be more eidolon, his 4 was originally going to be a CC area of effect that put enemies to sleep

[Mediloric]

I feel like we should probably wait till we see abilities before we fly off the hinges... again. 

[Raarsi]

4 hours ago, CypressEDF said:

In short, I'm angry with the current concept because it feels like a bait and switch, they teased a werewolf and gave us nothing of the sort, killing all the potential of what he could have been for both a werewolf and the art Joe Mad made.  His picture is worthy of a unique hellhound or enchantress or demon, but instead their forcing in a wolf concept.

Well it looks wolf-like and appears to have a larger physique and stands comfortably on two legs....pretty sure that qualifies as a werewolf.  Might not be your definition of a werewolf, but a lot of cultures (especially Christian cultures up to like the 19th Century) did perceive werewolves as demonic creatures, which might have factored into the inspiration of Joe Mad's work.

Sure, it might not be the classical werewolf known from pop culture, but I'm not going to get riled up over some simple art.  The biggest concern I had for the new frame (I'd go with the name Navarri) was never how it looked, but rather the possibility of seeing it as a Valkyr 2.0 or a female Sevagoth, so I'm definitely among those waiting to see what she'll be capable of.

[CypressEDF]

7 hours ago, Leqesai said:

It makes more sense for the frame to be Wolf themed than Werewolf themed though. 

 

I'll reserve judgment until I actually try the frame. IMO it looks pretty cool from the concept art.

You made a statement, "it makes more sense for the frame to be wolf themed than werewolf themed," yet give no reasons why...I'm not sure what to even say other than I disagree, we little have a fairy themed frame, how is a werewolf out of place?

[CypressEDF]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but wrong frame. You meant to type Revenant.

Revenant has themes of vampirism, however Garuda fits the bill better, she literally consumes the blood of her enemies to give her strength.

[CypressEDF]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

we dont know what its abilities will be for all we know one of its abilities could have it change to a kubrow like form and have only mele based attacks.  seeing as all we have so far is the base design

DE made it clear they won't have an ability that transforms the frame into a melee character.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

4 minutes ago, CypressEDF said:

DE made it clear they won't have an ability that transforms the frame into a melee character.

maybe maybe not they have gone back on decisions several times in past untill everything is finalized and they are showing her off with game play nothing is set in stone.  take styanax his kit was originaly going to be closer to the anime short but they ended up changing it a little not much but still some.  SO nothing is certain till week to 2 weeks before it drops

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

typically fur, fangs, and a weakness to silver, if you're goign by the generic pop-culture standard: just about every nation in the world has their own take on the Werewolf though. a transformation akin to Nidus or Chroma isn't necessarily out of the question thoguh, as we don't know what those ghostly-looking Wolf heads will do; could be that as you kill enemies, more of them appear and perhaps other features of the frame change too.

I'll admit they're leaning more into the demonic/Cerberus/hellhound side of the canine theme personally, they only vaguely look like wolves becasue of the "ears", without those it would look like any other monster. still, it'll eventually get a deluxe skin/Tennogen, so I'll just wait for that like I have done with all the other frames (can't wait for Styanax Tennogen!)

I hope it's not going to be yet another exalted claw ability; between Valkyr, Garuda and Sevagoth we already have more than enough claw users, but that's pretty much the only weapon a werewolf has, aside from biting. i'd suggets the ability to maul enemies pitbull-style, but such single target abilities are usually frowned upon in our horde shooter, so my money is on its kit being somethign completely left-field and not what we would expect of a typical werewolf. as long as it's not boring, it'll do I guess.

just about every conceivable theme for a warframe has been explored or touched on at this point, so I find it a real struggle to hype for any new frames. 

Well I disagree on your first and third points, but you and I seem to completely agree in the second section.  Joe Mad made something that looks more darksiders which, while not what we asked for, looks amazing...it should get a theme that corresponds.

To touch on your analysis of what makes a werewolf I think you missed the point of the question, every culture on earth has their version of a werewolf, but one factor stays the same amongst all of them, the physical manifestations of one's inner beast through transformation...DE have made it clear the new frame won't do that, thus its not a werewolf. 

Your third point is were we really differ, a claw focused ability doesn't need to be a copy paste of Valkyr or baruuk...be creative, we could finally get a frame that could pick up smaller enemies and use them as weapons, throw them, preform ground slams, ect.  Something akin to the Goliath from evolve, or the recent Spiderman games or video game renditions of the hulk would work really well and spice things up.  Does both single and multi-target damage in one kit.

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

atleast half

his 1st ability Entrall most Classic vampire books and movies give Many or all vampires ability to entrall some one

his 3rd ability is a dash threw the enemy and steal health and shields from any he passes threw.   seems pretty well like a vapire type ability to me

Yet a major part of a vampire is consuming blood, Rev has themes of vampirism, but isn't a vampire, he acts more like a revanent an undead warrior who can consume and infect other people, big shocker.  Garuda is more of a vamp because she acts more like one.

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's mist form, which is another hallmark of some vampire mythology.

Or void teleportation, which is eidolon/orokin themed

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

How is leaching life from target not vampire like that is literally the entire premise of vampires period that is not open for interpretation

Because it's more revanent like than vampire like.  Revanents need to consume the life of other creatures more like a zombie, vampires do it more like Garuda and specifically in the form of blood.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

1 minute ago, CypressEDF said:

Because it's more revanent like than vampire like.  Revanents need to consume the life of other creatures more like a zombie, vampires do it more like Garuda and specifically in the form of blood.

No zombies and revenant type creature more consumer the flesh not the life they dont care if its living or not.  Vampires consume the blood and lifeforce.  and garuda doesnt consume the blood she bathes in it

 

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Actually... no.

The idea of the 'Wolf Man' who turns into a horrific monstrosity, let alone a human/animal hybrid, that's 80 years old tops, that first appeared with that movie. 

The earliest known 'Werewolves' by any respect turned into full-blown wolves, but they retained all their human cognition and personality, and it would have been a test of skill and morality to not kill somebody (which was a requirement to turn back). And to be clear, this version of Werewolves is a few thousand years old, being Greek in Origin with some Roman myths like this. Other incarnations dropped the idea of actually turning into a wolf entirely, being either possessed by insanity that drove them to believe they were a wolf or projecting their spirits into the form of wolves. Granted the 'insanity' version were violent murderers, but many of the 'spirit Werewolves' are outright heroic, with the ability being either granted or permitted by God to slay evil. Sure most of these were still men, but that can be largely attributed to most mythology being a sausage fest. 

Wolves in general were feared, yes, but also greatly respected for much of human history, given how 'fact of life' there being wolves around was. It's only really when British settlers who had driven wolves out of England then landed in America and got very suddenly reacquainted that the image of wolves being completely monstrous showed up. Before this Wolves held many different symbolic forms, but one was a symbol of Motherhood and Fertility, thanks to the she-wolf that raised Romulus and Remus (and in turn the Jungle book, and it's become a pretty common trope from there). So for a she-wolf frame to have fairly sizable 'symbols of motherhood and fertility' is pretty on brand for wolf symbolism.

DE have often liked subverting or referring to less obvious aspects of mythology when creating frames. Whilst Revenant does clearly struggle to juggle both his Eidolon and Vampire themes, within the latter he more largely draws upon Vampires being seductive (in the mind-control sense), near-unkillable shapeshifters than their more conventional blood associations, which Garuda ties in to. So DE drawing upon the older 'Spirit Wolf' depiction of a Werewolf for their take on the concept is far from unusual.

 

I will give that the wolf skull body armour seems a bit much though.

Most of what you detailed agrees with what I mentioned, my diction could have been improved, but the idea that werewolves aren't explicitly evil or out of control wasn't mentioned in my post, but in many examples of Norse mythology, the ability to call upon a wolf spirit or turn into a wolf becomes too tempting to do evil with or lose control of its power.  The ultimate factor that makes a werewolf is the physical manifestation of someone's inner beast through transformation.  A shaman who uses wolf spirits is just that, a shaman.  Without transformation in some fashion, the person involved is only using a wolf spirit, not letting out their inner beast.  Furthermore this is often reinforced as a good thing in warriors...in a story where a man removes his enchanted clothes to become a wolf, he is an honorable warrior described as protecting those he loved and honored with ferocity, when his wife steals his clothes to get married to her affair he's stuck as a wolf and becomes the companion to the key, upon the werewolf seeing his wife again he attacks her and most likely would have killed her had the king not intervened to get the full story and restore the wolfs humanity.  The werewolf is good, but ferocious and rageful.

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)UndeadNidhogg said:

Someone has a werewolf obsession, and therefore isn't gonna be happy no matter what DE does here because "I know werewolves best, not YOU DE. See all MY werewolf posters and MY werewolf pajamas!? My mommy bought me these and your werewolf doesn't look like that so I'm not happy."

While your comical analysis of me had me laughing for a good minute, it's not that I know Werewolves better than DE, it's the fact DE is ignoring the key factors of a werewolf that have been sustained to media even today.  A wolf spirit Shaman as they have described the new frame, is not a werewolf. 

[CypressEDF]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

Yeah I was hoping for something like this when they first announced the next frame was going to be a werewolf I was imagining a 2nd or 3 ability that turned us into a kuburow.

 

And if want an actuall traditional werewolf in recent media just look at twilight( yes i know cringe)  but Jacob and them where very much your traditional werewolfs

Very well said, the Furion beast frame conspet was also really engaging for me and had me hyped for the news of a werewolf, I prefer the more skyrim like mix of beast and man as it really hits home there's a beast in all of us even without lycanthropy, but none the less I expected an actual werewolf, not a wolf spirit shaman.

[CypressEDF]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Dam I L💗ve this art, I hope they make a t-shirt of her gonna buy that day one.

 

 

 

Exactly!  The art is so amazing and deserves a truly unique theme to go with it, not to force a kinda not really wolf theme.

[CypressEDF]

4 hours ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

"Revenant's codename during development was Vlad, likely named after Vlad the Impaler who, in 1897, Irish writer Bram Stoker based the famous vampire "Count Dracula" off of. As described by Stoker, Count Dracula was an undead warlock that fed on human blood.

Revenant's abilities are also vampiric in nature:

  Enthrall converts others into loyal thralls, a trait in vampires.

  Mesmer Skin allows Revenant to cast Enthrall freely; vampires are capable of enthralling with their "mesmerizing" eyes.

  Reave turns Revenant into intangible mist, another trait in vampires. Additionally, vampires are famous for their ability to steal the life essence of their victims, with Reave displaying such trait when it passes through enemies and thralls"

That's a very accurate way to view revanent, however with his name being that of a creature with similar abilities once mixed with the void themes of an eidolon, I would argue he is more like and Eidolon revanent than a vampire.

[CypressEDF]

3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

I feel like we should probably wait till we see abilities before we fly off the hinges... again. 

DE has made it clear she is more of a wolf spirit Shaman than a werewolf, that's what I'm looking to discuss. 

[CypressEDF]

3 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Well it looks wolf-like and appears to have a larger physique and stands comfortably on two legs....pretty sure that qualifies as a werewolf.  Might not be your definition of a werewolf, but a lot of cultures (especially Christian cultures up to like the 19th Century) did perceive werewolves as demonic creatures, which might have factored into the inspiration of Joe Mad's work.

Sure, it might not be the classical werewolf known from pop culture, but I'm not going to get riled up over some simple art.  The biggest concern I had for the new frame (I'd go with the name Navarri) was never how it looked, but rather the possibility of seeing it as a Valkyr 2.0 or a female Sevagoth, so I'm definitely among those waiting to see what she'll be capable of.

But it isn't MY definition of a werewolf in nearly all werewolf mythology in history, a werewolf is the physical manifestation of someone's inner beast through transformation however subtle or overt.  DE made it clear the new frame is a wolf spirit Shaman, not a werewolf.  Also the notion a werewolf would just be sevagoth or valkyr copy paste is so uncreative, there are so many ways to make a melee character engaging than just a single button hack and slash, the Spiderman, hero, and hulk games have proved that.

[CypressEDF]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

maybe maybe not they have gone back on decisions several times in past untill everything is finalized and they are showing her off with game play nothing is set in stone.  take styanax his kit was originaly going to be closer to the anime short but they ended up changing it a little not much but still some.  SO nothing is certain till week to 2 weeks before it drops

True, but that's the point of this discussion, come up with a true consensus and give the feedback to DE, however their calling the frame a wolf spirit Shaman is pretty clear to me that isn't a werewolf 

[CypressEDF]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

No zombies and revenant type creature more consumer the flesh not the life they dont care if its living or not.  Vampires consume the blood and lifeforce.  and garuda doesnt consume the blood she bathes in it

 

Doesn't her blood alter give you health back?  Literally feeding on the life of her victim?  Also Revs abilities do ultimately consume his enemies instead of feeding on their life, he creates a horde of afflicted to fight with him, then he kills them all.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 8 heures, CypressEDF a dit :

I've seen a lot of hype for the new wolf inspired warframe next up on release, and I want to be so excited for the frame, but everytime I see more news about her, the more I feel like DE baited me to be hyped and then switched out what I wanted for something else.  I have a few points and I wanted to start some discussion on the matter, get some input and see if there's anything I'm missing.

 

1.) What makes a werewolf? 

Werewolfs have always been a symbol of an inner beast, a physical manifestation of pure masculine, beastial rage (That doesn't mean all werewolves are male, but masculine in nature).  So to me, when a game like warframe creates characters based on a well known theme, I have the expectation they honor the details of that theme.  One of the major aspects of a werewolf is transformation, the beast is usually hidden in an unsuspecting or elegant form to contrast their vicious beast form.  The frame we're getting removed that aspect, already that feels like a disregard for the theme.  Secondly, when talking about representing a theme, this frame should be male, each frame's gender is symbolic of their theme, equinox for example is purely female, yet her night form is more feminine and her day form is more masculine just like the lore behind yin and yang.  So what you're representing a werewolf by theme, a feminine appearance doesn't make any sense, it feels disrespectful they gave our werewolf the Mesa treatment and turned our wolf into an overly busty erotic model.  That's not what werewolves are about.  They clearly know this because the foil to a werewolf, a vampire, was done correctly seductive when Garuda released.

 

2.) Appearance:

When a fan created the Fenrir art (link at bottom) for a werewolf frame I was hyped out of my mind because it looked like the perfect blend of werewolf and warframe.  Even the name felt right with how many mythological names are in the game.  But then DE released their consept art...and I found myself looking at a boney creature with dragon skulls for armor.  How is that anything like a werewolf?  The art looks downright incredible, outstanding really, but not as a werewolf.  I would be unbelievably happy if she was released in a two part Christian lore theme, where she is a demon and the next frame is an angel.  It would both fill out more mythological themes and match the art.  But I digress, Hildryn looks more like a werewolf than what's currently being teased.  The designer or Fenrir, anzuarden_art hit the mark spot on, in normal form Fenrir has an elegant almost regal appearance, but as a beast, every attribute is accentuated and more vicious.  Instead of the amazing contrast in both gameplay and fashion frame, we only have one fixed appearance and it looks nothing like a werewolf to me.

 

3.) Gameplay impact:

When Titania released, she added and entirely new play style to normal mission nodes.  We could now take the interesting but under utilized arching gameplay and use it on any mission, amazing.  A werewolf frame should have done the same.  If transformation was implemented (like they have already done with Titania) they could create a new way to experience combat and a new form of movement.  While something as drastic as crawling on walls like a xenomorph would be hard to implement, something like volts speed mixed with a Goliath leap from evolve and something like a kubrow run would make for something unique and fresh.  DE said many times they didn't want to make another Valkyr, yet the werewolf wouldn't need to be, instead of a single button hack and slash, they could flesh out his melee, make unique ground pounds, grabbing enemies, combos, howls and jaw focused moves and make him totally unique from her.  Furthermore his designe could have been the inverse to Baruuk, like having a meter build up with the more violence and bloodshed you cause, maybe the transformation is uncontrollable and happens when the meter is full, though I would prefer it not to be it still would have been better than the generic unwolf like thing DE is showing us.

 

In short, I'm angry with the current concept because it feels like a bait and switch, they teased a werewolf and gave us nothing of the sort, killing all the potential of what he could have been for both a werewolf and the art Joe Mad made.  His picture is worthy of a unique hellhound or enchantress or demon, but instead their forcing in a wolf concept.  I seem to be the only one feeling lied to and just want to hear if anyone else agrees with this; and if you disagree feel free to let me know on what points and why.  Is there a bigger picture I'm missing?  Because I think a werewolf should have combined elements from Titania, Baruuk, Styanax/Atlas(summoning companions/pack), and fresh mechanics, but now none of this is coming.

https://twitter.com/anzuarden_art/status/1430582016186019844

This is something very common and you can find many references (on forums and on Devstreams) about the development of some frames : it starts in a way and the idea changes in the middle of the reflexion. Sevagoth was designed as a wraithe frame and got a bit changed on the development process. Ivara started as a poison frame whose design was based on a tree frog. The spider frame became Khora. Zephyr was based on a tengu (there still has some references to this on some game files).

Some changes on the delopment process is normal. The new frame started as a werewolf : now, it's a wolf based warframe.

[CypressEDF]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

This is something very common and you can find many references (on forums and on Devstreams) about the development of some frames : it starts in a way and the idea changes in the middle of the reflexion. Sevagoth was designed as a wraithe frame and got a bit changed on the development process. Ivara started as a poison frame whose design was based on a tree frog. The spider frame became Khora. Zephyr was based on a tengu (there still has some references to this on some game files).

Some changes on the delopment process is normal. The new frame started as a werewolf : now, it's a wolf based warframe.

Yet when werewolf fans said we wanted a werewolf, we meant it, not a wolf spirit Shaman as they are now calling her.  Should we just hope for the next frame after her to be a true werewolf, give DE feedback now to change it all or something else?  I mean talking Sevagoth and Ivara, Sevagoth is pretty much what I would expect from a wraith nearly spot on and ivara still has a heavy poison frog theme with how she can blend in and afflict enemies with different "poisons" if you will.  Yet a wolf spirit Shaman doesn't embody the release of an inner beast.  So should I just take the loss of one if my favorite themes or should I wait for the next fanframe to be Fenrir or something...