Warframe Powers And Mechanics Post U14

[PsycloneM]

No abilities were ignored with bias, because I was not interested in testing how quickly a warframe can travel using only their powers. That was not the purpose of these tests. The ability that I was using (Rhino Charge) was the one that I was primarily interested in.

 

However with just running speed alone, yes, a charging Rhino does move faster (even if it is for a very short duration) than Loki and Volt with Speed activated. Again, the point was not to see who's the fastest, but to see what the value of 48 really meant, if that value and the 0.35 second duration were accurate, and to determine what sprint speed is.

Edited March 10, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Bibliothekar]

Sports metaphor for Pharuan: PsychloneM was looking, who can run 200m the fastest. What you're suggesting, is that Loki should take a shortcut - something that normally leads to him being disqualified.

Yes, at long distances, Switch Teleport is faster than sprinting. As is Ash's teleport. Or Nova's wormhole. Or Zephyr's tail wind. But that's not the point of the test. The goal of this test was, to find out which unit the sprint speed of Rhino Charge uses and how the Sprint Speed number correlates with the actual movement speed. Not some e-peen, "hurr-durr I can move faster than you hurr-durr" crap.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[Darkeryonok]

Also this.

Nova: Molecular prime - Is it just me, or there is something with radius? I've used it on void mobile def 1, and most of the times skill didn't work properly. I've casted it, but some enemies weren't primed. Almost always those was enemies, who was behind me, but in reach of skill. Also sometimes enemies which was behind some obstacles didn't prime.
It needs further testing, but if someone can check it too, it would be awesome.
One of variants are, that right after my cast, new enemies spawned and confused me and molecular prime :)

[PsycloneM]

I've updated several posts in preparation for U13: such as Blade Storm dealing double damage to Ancient Healers, Decoy having a small chance to inflict puncture and slash procs, as well as determining the percentage of enemy health removed per tick from Energy Vampire, Shock's maximum number of targets, and Electric Shield's damage bonuses.

 

Once I have the time to craft Hydroid, I'll be sure to organize the ability mechanics here.

Edited April 11, 2014 by PsycloneM

[PsycloneM]

Excuse the bump: I wanted to let you all know about some undocumented changes in case you haven't discovered these already. Here's what I've observed so far:

 

 

- Shuriken's homing capabilities and speed seem to have been improved.

 

- Blade Storm's attacks increase your melee counter, but the damage does not benefit from the multiplier. Attacks on robotics (including MOAs and ospreys) do not count, however.

 

- Hysteria's damage calculation for most attacks no longer depends on your melee weapon's base damage. Although a counter is not displayed, Hysteria seems to use its own separate melee counter. Your standard attacks deal a base 300 damage, evenly distributed between IPS. After a certain amount of hits, the base damage increases by a factor of 1.5, 2, and so on (although I have not observed a multiplier higher than 2 yet). The base damage and multiplier are not affected by power strength.

 

Stealth executions now do 10 damage, and are also affected by your weapon's critical damage/chance. Ground finishers and jump attacks use the weapon scaling formula (300 + 1.75 x weapon damage). So power strength and melee damage mods will affect ground finishers and jump attacks as they did before the update. Stealth executions and ground finishers deal finisher damage, which bypasses armor.

 

If your melee weapon is equipped before going into Hysteria, you can channel your attacks, which deal an additional 50% damage. Channeling damage mods don't seem to work for Hysteria. Your weapon's critical damage and critical chance still affect Hysteria from what I've seen. Finally, while the attack rate has been increased, stamina is drained with each attack.

 

- Electric Shield has become much more opaque. Fixed with U13.0.2.

 

- Tornado no longer affects loot.

Edited April 16, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Monolake]

Excuse the bump: I wanted to let you all know about some undocumented changes in case you haven't discovered these already. Here's what I've observed so far:

 

 

- Shuriken's homing capabilities and speed seem to have been improved.

 

- Blade Storm's attacks increase your melee counter, but the damage does not benefit from the multiplier. Attacks on ospreys (at least Orokin drones from what I've seen) do not count, however.

 

- Hysteria's damage calculation no longer depends on your melee weapon's base damage, but seems to use its own separate melee counter. Your attacks deal a base 300 damage, evenly distributed between IPS. After a certain amount of hits, the base damage increases by a factor of 1.5, 2, and so on (although I have not observed a multiplier higher than 2 yet). The base damage and multiplier are not affected by power strength.

 

If your melee weapon is equipped before going into Hysteria, you can channel your attacks, which deal an additional 50% damage. Channeling damage mods don't seem to work for Hysteria. Your weapon's critical damage and critical chance still affect Hysteria from what I've seen. Finally, the attack rate has been increased.

 

- Electric Shield has become much more opaque. Fixed with U13.0.2.

 

- Tornado no longer affects loot.

Thank you. Hysteria got an overall nerf bat, only ground finished does good damge now.  Iv posted my testing observation comparing with some old footage I had https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/210925-valk-u13-hysteria-nerf/  

Also the 'stealth' attack does almost nothing now. 

[Archwizard]

Once I have the time to craft Hydroid, I'll be sure to organize the ability mechanics here.

 

Looking forward to that, since the wiki appears to be in desperate need of updates. Hard to tell what damage type half of his abilities even are, since I've never seen them proc.

[Jeerome0406]

Reading this topic is blowing my mind, but I am a little slow on the uptake of all of these modifiers and armor damage reductions.

Could you give me a simple example on every variable in the basic formula for the damage?

Here's a scenario: Ash using Shuriken (No Intensify, or Blind Rage) On a level 1 Lancer, which has 100 Ferrite Armor and 100 Cloned Flesh. Shuriken deals 100% slash damage, and this will kill the target.

So what variable are which? Because I get a little lost in the calculation.

500 X 1.25 X 0.85 X (1 - Base Armor X a multiplier? / (base armor X same multiplier + 300))

What is that multiplier that is in that formula?

[Helter]

The problem with giving a simple example is that the way damage is calculated (particularly once armor is involved) isn't very simple. Warning: math ahead.

 

Armor mitigates incoming damage. The basic formula for that is:

1 /  [ 1 + ( Armor / 300 ) ]

A level 1 Grineer Lancer has 100 armor, which leads to a mitigation multiplier of 0.75 (incoming damage is multiplied by that value, resulting in damage being reduced by 25%). In this case, something (say, a Plasma Sword with a rank 4 Pressure Point) that does 70 Electric damage (which has no bonus or penalty against Ferrite Armor or Cloned Flesh) will deal 52 damage (52.5, but final damage is always rounded down) to said Lancer.

Things get complicated when you start factoring in weaknesses and resistances, though. Take Corrosive damage, for instance, which gets a 75% bonus to Ferrite Armor, and no bonus/penalty to Cloned Flesh. With our Lancer example and a 70 corrosive damage weapon (Tysis with Rank 4 Hornet Strike), you deal 113 damage (~61% over listed value). How do we get that? Like I said, it's complicated. Have another formula:

damage * ( 1 + elemental modifier ) * [ 1 - ( modified damage reduction ) ] = final damage

The elemental modifier in this case is 0.75 to represent corrosive's 75% bonus against Ferrite Armor.

Modified damage reduction is:
armor * ( 1 - elemental modifier ) / [ armor x ( 1 - elemental modifier ) + 300 ]

So, for corrosive against our lowly Lancer, that works out to:

25 / 325 = ~0.077

Plug all that into the formula above:

70 * 1.75 * 0.923 = 113.0675

Round down again, and we get our 113 displayed damage.

For damage types that affect Cloned Flesh but not Ferrite Armor (like Viral), you simply add the bonus damage and then apply armor normally (70 viral turns into 91, as 70 * 1.75 * 0.75 = ~91).
 

For damage types that have armor penalties (like Blast against Ferrite Armor), you use the same modified damage reduction formula up top, except you're adding instead of subtracting. For Blast damage against a level 1 Lancer, that formula would look like this:

 

100 * ( 1 + 0.25 ) / [ 100 * ( 1 + 0.25 ) + 300 ]

or

125 / 425 = ~0.294

 

You plug that into the main formula up top, remembering that the elemental modifier needs to be subtracted this time instead of added. In this way, a stock Penta (350 Blast damage) against that level 1 Lancer deals 185 damage:

 

350 * 0.75 * 0.706 = ~185

 

For damage types that have a separate bonus and penalty to the armor and health type (like Slash, which has a 15% penalty to Ferrite Armor and a 25% bonus to Cloned Flesh), it's very similar to the above example, you just have two elemental modifiers to apply. For Shuriken (500 Slash damage) against another level 1 Lancer:

 

500 * 1.25 * 0.85 * 0.723 = ~384

When combining multiple damage types, calculate their values individually, add them up, and then round the final result down.

[Jeerome0406]

I love you. Thank you so freaking much! I got it now thanks to you.

[Jeerome0406]

Okay new question time.

I have been clicking away at numbers and have been coming up with good results, but I am stuck on a Corrupted Lancer.

Wiki states that it has a 200 Alloy armor rating and a health 60 flesh, spawning at level 10.

With this, I plug this data into the formula.

((10-10) ^ 1.75 * 0.015 * 200) + 200 = 200

 

So when I take his final armor rating, and plug into the next formula...

(200 * (1 + 0.5) / (200 * (1 + 0.5) + 300) = 0.5

 

Finally, I slot this number into the last one for damage.

 

500 (Shurriken) * 1.25 (Flesh) * 0.5 (Alloy) * 0.5 (Reduction) = 156.25.

 

But in game, when I try it out I get 140 damage. How is this possible?

 

[PsycloneM]

Let's see.

 

You're using the coefficient from the health equation to calculate armor. 0.015 should be 0.005 in the expression you shared. Also, the wiki may not be right about the spawn level. Try a spawn level of 1, and see if things work out.

[Jeerome0406]

Let's see.

 

You're using the coefficient from the health equation to calculate armor. 0.015 should be 0.005 in the expression you shared. Also, the wiki may not be right about the spawn level. Try a spawn level of 1, and see if things work out.

You mad freaking genius.

 

I got ~140.

 

Jeez, I thought I was going to have to spend all night trying to figure out why it was wrong.

[PsycloneM]

No problem. I remember how frustrated I was when I was trying to figure out how armor modifiers worked, so I know how that is.

 

I did some Hydroid testing over the weekend, and you can see my results reflected in the wiki.

 

I still need to test Tidal Surge; I'm already aware of the primary damage type (impact), but there is a second instance of damage that's inflicted at the end of the charge that I'm trying to understand. The problem is that the damage depends on distance, so it's difficult to obtain consistent damage values, which makes it even more difficult to narrow down the damage type. I'll add an in-depth post for Hydroid, like I've done in the past, once I have everything sorted out.

[Jeerome0406]

Okay so, master of the deeps, I have another request to pick at your mighty brain.

 

When you calculate the damage of a modded weapon with an armor multiplier against a grineer, let's say a Braton with 90% toxic damage added on, is the damage calculated alongside the small puncture the weapon has with it too?

So like with the Fang Prime, with +90% Toxic damage, will a Ferrite totting Grineer have his armor multiplied by the (1 - (0.25)) from the toxic in the armor mitigation formula along with the (1 - (0.55)) from the puncture?

[Kyte]

Each damage type is calculated separately. For a Fang Prime with Fever Strike you calculate 3.6 impact, 32.4 puncture and 32.4 toxin.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Kyte

[Jeerome0406]

Thanks! Also, Bladestorm completely bypasses armor, yes?

So It removes the armor mitigation part of the formula, but what about the armor bonus(resistance) against slash?

[RealPandemonium]

This may be off-topic but it is related to the dps concerns of the above poster.  Oxium Ospreys appear to have Ferrite Armor.  Has anyone figured out the exact numbers?

 

 

Thanks! Also, Bladestorm completely bypasses armor, yes?

So It removes the armor mitigation part of the formula, but what about the armor bonus(resistance) against slash?

 

Blade Storm deals Finisher damage so that resistance isn't a factor.

Edited April 24, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[CubedOobleck]

Antimatter Drop still uses the same damage formula as it did before: 100 damage + 4x weapon damage absorbed, all as  radiation damage. The weapon damage multiplier is not affected by power strength. Antimatter Drop also deals 10 radiation damage when it makes contact with an enemy prior to detonation.

Do you know if Antimatter Drop absorbs crit damage correctly?

[Kyte]

This may be off-topic but it is related to the dps concerns of the above poster.  Oxium Ospreys appear to have Ferrite Armor.  Has anyone figured out the exact numbers?

 

 

 

Blade Storm deals Finisher damage so that resistance isn't a factor.

Not just that. Finisher Damage is +100% vs armor. IIRC that means it not only ignores armor mitigation, but it also does double damage.

[Jeerome0406]

Not just that. Finisher Damage is +100% vs armor. IIRC that means it not only ignores armor mitigation, but it also does double damage.

uh what? Whered that come from? I've never seen this in game. Against any level grineer I get 2600 (with intensify) In game, so uh.... whaaaat? Edited May 3, 2014 by Jeerome0406

[RealPandemonium]

It only seems to do more damage vs Ancient Healers.  Maybe it's a holdover from Damage 1.0 or something?

[Kyte]

uh what? Whered that come from? I've never seen this in game. Against any level grineer I get 2600 (with intensify) In game, so uh.... whaaaat?

Well I dunno. I'd have to go and test the damage system again.

[PsycloneM]

Do you know if Antimatter Drop absorbs crit damage correctly?

 

It doesn't as far as I can tell. Critical damage is not used in the damage expression.

 

 

Regarding finisher damage, if I'm not mistaken it deals +100% damage to ferrite armor, alloy armor, and sinew. For whatever reason, finisher damage against armored targets is not calculated the same way as other damage types are. That is to say, resistances that affect armor usually affect the initial damage and the armor of the target.

 

initial damage x ( 1 + modifier ) x [ 1 - armor x ( 1 - modifier ) / ( 300 + armor x ( 1 - modifier ) ) ]  = final damage

 

Finisher damage only affects the target's armor. So for ferrite and alloy-armored targets, there's no 2x modifier applied to the initial damage. For sinew, the 2x modifier is applied to the initial damage as expected.

Edited May 3, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Kyte]

That kinda sounds like a bug, huh.