Incarnons: Revisiting Stat Sticks

[Voltage]

For years now, "stat sticks" have become overused by the playerbase and the developers have ignored them for the most part. Over time though, more and more items are added that feed into this mess where you are bringing seemingly random weapons, Riven Mods, elemental progenitors on Kuva/Tenet weapons, and now Incarnon perks to buff unrelated abilities from various Warframes (and Vaporize for Deth Cube).

This interaction can be removed to rebalance affected abilities and have a more appropriately powerful set of abilities so players are no longer forced to sacrifice weapon slots with impractical builds for said weapon just so their abilities are optimized. This is dramatically worsened in situations like the Circuit where gear is randomized, or the way stat sticks negatively impact Riven Dispositions on various weapons that aren't even the culprit of popularity/usage.

It's been brought up several times over the years, and I really fear that this may lead to unnecessary nerfs like we've seen to Riven Dispositions applied to new gear such as Incarnon Ceramic Dagger.

[PublikDomain]

Simple enough to fix, too, as long as it's done consciously.

• Make Pseudo-Exalted Abilities directly moddable from the Arsenal like Exalted Weapons.
• Buff base damage 1.5-2x to offset the loss of Rivens.
• Remove the passive Combo Counter damage buff.
• Add an ability combo system like Atlas' Landslide to offset the loss of the Combo Counter damage buff.
• Disallow Combo Counter mods like Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus.
• Buff base Crit/Status to offset the loss of Combo Counter mods.

The important thing is that if the Combo Counter isn't addressed we'll just end up with stat-sticks to carry Combo Count mods instead of damage mods. So what we have now, just worse in every way.

[Voltage]

48 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Simple enough to fix, too, as long as it's done consciously.

• Make Pseudo-Exalted Abilities directly moddable from the Arsenal like Exalted Weapons.
• Buff base damage 1.5-2x to offset the loss of Rivens.
• Remove the passive Combo Counter damage buff.
• Add an ability combo system like Atlas' Landslide to offset the loss of the Combo Counter damage buff.
• Disallow Combo Counter mods like Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus.
• Buff base Crit/Status to offset the loss of Combo Counter mods.

The important thing is that if the Combo Counter isn't addressed we'll just end up with stat-sticks to carry Combo Count mods instead of damage mods. So what we have now, just worse in every way.

Yeah, basically this. It's really frustrating that it didn't take too long to get moddable Exalted Weapons, yet these Pseudo-Exalted Abilities have remained as-is since they were added.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

absolutely

and stat sticks go against the intention of the Riven Disposition system.

Warframes/Abilities were never meant to have Rivens, DE reworks/balances them manually as needed; stat sticks are like a loophole where players are applying a Riven to their warframe.

[Numerounius]

So you want all the syndicate weapons to completely gutted of their identity? You want no more amalgram mods? Weapon passives removed? Etc. That seems like a major stretch.

 

Hard to call them unnecessary nerfs when they give clear reasons why for the changes in the patch notes. 

[Voltage]

10 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

So you want all the syndicate weapons to completely gutted of their identity? You want no more amalgram mods? Weapon passives removed? Etc. That seems like a major stretch.

 

Hard to call them unnecessary nerfs when they give clear reasons why for the changes in the patch notes. 

You're completely missing the point of this post. And yes, I think it's absolutely stupid to punish the Furax or the Ripkas and it's potential damage output because people only used it to slot pseudo-Firestorm or a Desecrate-buff onto it. The same goes to any Syndicate weapon, passive, Arcane or Incarnon Form.

I call them unnecessary because they are easily that when you're someone like me who remembers most of DE's decisions and compares them together over the years. There are always some nerfs that are appropriately justified, but just because DE writes down a reason doesn't mean it has proper justification if we are considering how it actually affects the game going forward from then-on.

DE's patch notes sometimes contain disingenuous nonsense like we are seeing with Magus Lockdown and Banshee's Silence, and sometimes they just omit things they don't want the average player to see they changed. Undocumented changes are more frequent than you think.

[(PSN)RuTweN]

21 hours ago, Voltage said:

For years now, "stat sticks" have become overused by the playerbase and the developers have ignored them for the most part. Over time though, more and more items are added that feed into this mess where you are bringing seemingly random weapons, Riven Mods, elemental progenitors on Kuva/Tenet weapons, and now Incarnon perks to buff unrelated abilities from various Warframes (and Vaporize for Deth Cube).

Stasticks are part of warframe for a long time,they are not “overused” it’s part of Khora,Gara and Atlas design.

Stasticks allowed for a balance on melee usage a better diversity as everyone can use what they want as the weapon of choise doesn’t matter,that’s why we have a difference in riven disposition between melees and also a riven market for them(and an accesible one nonetheless)

Similar to the rest of the game the stasticks evolve as the rest of the game evolves,new interactions are added and some are removed(Xoris),incarnons are the new thing and bring a new set of buffs

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Simple enough to fix, too, as long as it's done consciously.

• Make Pseudo-Exalted Abilities directly moddable from the Arsenal like Exalted Weapons.
• Add an ability combo system like Atlas' Landslide to offset the loss of the Combo Counter damage buff.
• Disallow Combo Counter mods like Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus.
• Buff base Crit/Status to offset the loss of Combo Counter mods.

The important thing is that if the Combo Counter isn't addressed we'll just end up with stat-sticks to carry Combo Count mods instead of damage mods. 

Then you need to adress excalibur,wukong,Valkyr and Baruuk for using stasticks to get mini blood rush from gladiator mods stacking.Removing it will make those exalted garbage

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Simple enough to fix, too, as long as it's done consciously.

• Buff base damage 1.5-2x to offset the loss of Rivens.
• Remove the passive Combo Counter damage buff.
• Add an ability combo system like Atlas' Landslide to offset the loss of the Combo Counter damage buff.
• Disallow Combo Counter mods like Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus.
• Buff base Crit/Status to offset the loss of Combo Counter mods.

The important thing is that if the Combo Counter isn't addressed we'll just end up with stat-sticks to carry Combo Count mods instead of damage mods. So what we have now, just worse in every way.

Gara doesn’t work like Atlas and Khora, so half of what you mentioned falls off,the rest is useless.Khora would need a new set of animations as Atlas combo is linked with his animation,not to mention his combo is tied to duration a stat that create new issues.

Adjusting CC and SC woudn’t help as each one needs to fill a different role,buffing the current number will just make atlas and Gara be garbage without any way of closing the gaps

Khora is between the first 15 most played warframes,it’s easy to use and set.
 

When demanding changes think that this affects more than just one frame,and will affect other warframes as well some of them with exalted weapons (which have it way worse)

Currently pseudo exalted weapons are the only abilities that can compete with meta melee.What you are asking is to nerf them into the ground by making them exalted because they requiere you to use different weapons

 

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

Stasticks are part of warframe for a long time,they are not “overused” it’s part of Khora,Gara and Atlas design.

Stasticks allowed for a balance on melee usage a better diversity as everyone can use what they want as the weapon of choise doesn’t matter,that’s why we have a difference in riven disposition between melees and also a riven market for them(and an accesible one nonetheless)

Similar to the rest of the game the stasticks evolve as the rest of the game evolves,new interactions are added and some are removed(Xoris),incarnons are the new thing and bring a new set of buffs

Then you need to adress excalibur,wukong,Valkyr and Baruuk for using stasticks to get mini blood rush from gladiator mods stacking.Removing it will make those exalted garbage

Gara doesn’t work like Atlas and Khora, so half of what you mentioned falls off,the rest is useless.Khora would need a new set of animations as Atlas combo is linked with his animation,not to mention his combo is tied to duration a stat that create new issues.

Adjusting CC and SC woudn’t help as each one needs to fill a different role,buffing the current number will just make atlas and Gara be garbage without any way of closing the gaps

Khora is between the first 15 most played warframes,it’s easy to use and set.

When demanding changes think that this affects more than just one frame,and will affect other warframes as well some of them with exalted weapons (which have it way worse)

Currently pseudo exalted weapons are the only abilities that can compete with meta melee.What you are asking is to nerf them into the ground by making them exalted because they requiere you to use different weapons

There is nothing interesting or healthy by telling a player to use a scuffed melee build that makes that specific melee poorly modded in favor of spamming a Warframe ability. Amphis is not Landslide or Whipclaw, and neither is Incarnon Ceramic Dagger. If we can't have Riven Mods for Warframes or their Exalted Weapons, then their abilities should absolutely not benefit from them.

The necessary changes to make these abilities feel better to use was easier 8 years ago, but DE has chose to ignore it, and now it's more complicated.

And even if DE is embracing this for whatever reason, I can still write feedback that it's bad design. I hate to play Gara, Khora and Atlas for this very reason. I like to use my melee. When you play these Warframes, you are either spamming their ability, or using a properly modded melee. There is no in between. It's black and white. You're either modding your melee correctly, or you're modding your ability correctly. One of them has to suffer for the other to function. That's terrible design, and I've called it out for years, especially as someone who enjoys Riven Mods and has to avoid "stat-stick weapon" Rivens because their dispositions fluctuate for literally no reason as the actual weapon the Riven being slotted on is rarely actually used, it's just there to carry stats. The same happens with Exodia Contagion and Zaw Riven Dispositions. It's stupid and needs to change.

Incarnon Weapons are another red flag on this problem as if it wasn't already annoying enough. Are you going to say it's fine that Ceramic Dagger, a dated weapon nobody has used for the better part of a decade is fine to be nerfed or its Rivens nerfed because people are going to only use it for Gara and roll +Initial Combo Rivens?

Exalted Weapon modding is left in an archaic state because of a time when DE was scared of an Acolyte Mod meta back in 2016 after Operation: Shadow Debt. They are so far behind because they are still only able to use modding setups from the 2015 era of the game.

If making pseudo-Exalted Weapons function as Exalted Weapons is a nerf, maybe you should, I don't know, examine how you've balanced Exalted Weapons? Gee, then we could properly fix two problems with the game.

[PublikDomain]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

Then you need to adress excalibur,wukong,Valkyr and Baruuk for using stasticks to get mini blood rush from gladiator mods stacking.Removing it will make those exalted garbage

Right, and addressing that means making the Combo Counter mods function on those weapons correctly instead of needing a gimpy little workaround. That means buffs. Exalted melee are already pretty garbage and need help.

20 minutes ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

What you are asking is to nerf them into the ground by making them exalted because they requiere you to use different weapons

I'm not, though? I thought I was pretty clear that the removal of things like the Combo Counter and Rivens needs to be offset by suitable buffs to make up for it. So I don't see how asking for Landslide and Shattered Lash to deal double their base damage, getting an escalating damage buff, and being able to reliably crit and apply status would "nerf them into the ground". Those are buffs.

[(PSN)RuTweN]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

There is nothing interesting or healthy by telling a player to use a scuffed melee build that makes that specific melee poorly modded in favor of spamming a Warframe ability. Amphis is not Landslide or Whipclaw, and neither is Incarnon Ceramic Dagger. If we can't have Riven Mods for Warframes or their Exalted Weapons, then their abilities should absolutely not benefit from them.

You are actually telling that a design choice for 3 frames breaks the whole fabric of warframe while nothing stops you to use any of those frames with a normal build the catch is -you won’t get maximum output and you you want both max output and normal weapon although that’s how they were intended to work

It feels like asking De to change Hyldrin to have energy because using shields feels weird and you can’t build for health

And De is not saying play with a scuffed melee, it’s more on the pick whatever you need:

-You want full power on landslide and spam it go full ahead an mod your weapon

-You still want to use your melee-you can’t have full power landslide

you can’t have a cake and eat it at the same time, the same goes for other exalted users

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

The necessary changes to make these abilities feel better to use was easier 8 years ago, but DE has chose to ignore it, and now it's more complicated.

 

Maaaybe they are not ignoring them. they are being maintained, they are niched

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

And even if DE is embracing this for whatever reason, I can still write feedback that it's bad design. I hate to play Gara, Khora and Atlas for this very reason. I like to use my melee. When you play these Warframes, you are either spamming their ability, or using a properly modded melee. There is no in between. It's black and white. You're either modding your melee correctly, or you're modding your ability correctly.

Because you are trying to fit a triangle through a circle hole, It’s black and white if you want maximum output which considering the power those skills have it’s unbalanced, no warframe can do over 22mil damage in steel path without a sacrifice.

Even if De changes pseudo exalted you still won’t like Atlas,Khora and Gara because their kits are build around their 1, using melees brings nothing to these frames

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

That's terrible design, and I've called it out for years, especially as someone who enjoys Riven Mods and has to avoid "stat-stick weapon" Rivens because their dispositions fluctuate for literally no reason as the actual weapon the Riven being slotted on is rarely actually used, it's just there to carry stats. The same happens with Exodia Contagion and Zaw Riven Dispositions. It's stupid and needs to change.

All weapons are used as stasticks, main weapons that are used as stasticks are weapons that are too old to be used for something other than MR folder and Mire and Jaw sword.The issue is with Rivens not Pseudo exalted

 

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Incarnon Weapons are another red flag on this problem as if it wasn't already annoying enough. Are you going to say it's fine that Ceramic Dagger, a dated weapon nobody has used for the better part of a decade is fine to be nerfed or its Rivens nerfed because people are going to only use it for Gara and roll +Initial Combo Rivens?

It’s going to be nerfed due to being used in baruuk for quick 11x initial combo

Riven dispo will be nerfed because it’s going to be popular,it’s a great heavy attack weapon

The outrage it’s not because someone it’s going to use it Gara,Bo incarnon is a 100X better on gara than ceramic daggeR.No sane player would waste 3 damage slots to get initial combo on Gara

 

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Exalted Weapon modding is left in an archaic state because of a time when DE was scared of an Acolyte Mod meta back in 2016 after Operation: Shadow Debt. They are so far behind because they are still only able to use modding setups from the 2015 era of the game.

If making pseudo-Exalted Weapons function as Exalted Weapons is a nerf, maybe you should, I don't know, examine how you've balanced Exalted Weapons? Gee, then we could properly fix two problems with the game.

So your feedback is that pseudo exalted weapons are bad to be turned in a way worse system because you don’t like to change your playstyle and that some popular weapons are going to be nerfed?

 

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Right, and addressing that means making the Combo Counter mods function on those weapons correctly instead of needing a gimpy little workaround. That means buffs. Exalted melee are already pretty garbage and need help.

I'm not, though? I thought I was pretty clear that the removal of things like the Combo Counter and Rivens needs to be offset by suitable buffs to make up for it. So I don't see how asking for Landslide and Shattered Lash to deal double their base damage, getting an escalating damage buff, and being able to reliably crit and apply status would "nerf them into the ground". Those are buffs.

You are asking for 3 different skills that have different scaling and usages to be alligned to a system that is limited and garbage then DE to rework all exalted weapons

 

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So I don't see how asking for Landslide and Shattered Lash to deal double their base damage, getting an escalating damage buff, and being able to reliably crit and apply status would "nerf them into the ground". Those are buffs.

Because slapping damage to everything and alligning them to a combo system doesn’t fix the problem,won’t allow the warframes to stay competitive and will create more bugs.Not to mention that it requieres for another 5 exalted frames to be updated to get the exalted system up to date-which considering DE’s track record is  prone to disaster

 

It’s a feedback,it’s ok to not like stuff but asking to change on something you don’t use and don’t fully grasp the concept behind it and it’s usability just because it might change your new ceramic dagger toy it’s not something worth taking into consideration

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

You are asking for 3 different skills that have different scaling and usages to be alligned to a system that is limited and garbage then DE to rework all exalted weapons

They're already aligned? The math and mechanics and scaling behind them are identical. The sole differences are that Atlas has a built-in combo system, and that Shattered Lash and Slash Dash have a 1x Crit. That's it as far as mechanics are concerned. There are different modding priorities when it comes to damage types, but that doesn't really matter when it comes to the actual mechanics and how they function.

3 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

Because slapping damage to everything and alligning them to a combo system doesn’t fix the problem,won’t allow the warframes to stay competitive and will create more bugs.Not to mention that it requieres for another 5 exalted frames to be updated to get the exalted system up to date-which considering DE’s track record is  prone to disaster

I don't think anyone is talking about Exalted Weapon frames?

And I still don't see how removing mechanics like the Combo Counter interaction and Riven scaling, which do literally nothing but affect damage, and then adding that damage back in, is somehow supposed to be a problem.

I can post some specific numbers if you'd like. None of this is hard or complicated stuff.

Also:

3 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

It’s a feedback,it’s ok to not like stuff but asking to change on something you don’t use and don’t fully grasp the concept behind it and it’s usability just because it might change your new ceramic dagger toy it’s not something worth taking into consideration

I think I know what I'm talking about?

[Voltage]

On 2023-05-09 at 11:09 PM, (PSN)RuTweN said:

You are actually telling that a design choice for 3 frames breaks the whole fabric of warframe while nothing stops you to use any of those frames with a normal build the catch is -you won’t get maximum output and you you want both max output and normal weapon although that’s how they were intended to work

It feels like asking De to change Hyldrin to have energy because using shields feels weird and you can’t build for health

And De is not saying play with a scuffed melee, it’s more on the pick whatever you need:

-You want full power on landslide and spam it go full ahead an mod your weapon

-You still want to use your melee-you can’t have full power landslide

you can’t have a cake and eat it at the same time, the same goes for other exalted users

Maaaybe they are not ignoring them. they are being maintained, they are niched

Because you are trying to fit a triangle through a circle hole, It’s black and white if you want maximum output which considering the power those skills have it’s unbalanced, no warframe can do over 22mil damage in steel path without a sacrifice.

Even if De changes pseudo exalted you still won’t like Atlas,Khora and Gara because their kits are build around their 1, using melees brings nothing to these frames

All weapons are used as stasticks, main weapons that are used as stasticks are weapons that are too old to be used for something other than MR folder and Mire and Jaw sword.The issue is with Rivens not Pseudo exalted

It’s going to be nerfed due to being used in baruuk for quick 11x initial combo

Riven dispo will be nerfed because it’s going to be popular,it’s a great heavy attack weapon

The outrage it’s not because someone it’s going to use it Gara,Bo incarnon is a 100X better on gara than ceramic daggeR.No sane player would waste 3 damage slots to get initial combo on Gara

So your feedback is that pseudo exalted weapons are bad to be turned in a way worse system because you don’t like to change your playstyle and that some popular weapons are going to be nerfed?

You are asking for 3 different skills that have different scaling and usages to be alligned to a system that is limited and garbage then DE to rework all exalted weapons

Stat sticks aren't a synergy or complimentary mechanic. I'm not using Djinn and deciding to also use Gazal Machete. An Amphis is entirely unrelated to Whipclaw, the same goes for Incarnon Mode. DE disallowing Xoris from working is proof that weapon abilities are not supposed to interact with Warframe abilities in this manner. Allowing Incarnon perks would mean they are going back on their stance with Xoris. 

This is as stupid as if I had to roll a Phaedra Riven and rely on its Disposition for Arquebex to have peak performance. That's just dumb.

Melees do absolutely bring something to the table with these Warframes. You could be out of energy or decide to bring a melee that offers something these abilities don't (like a ranged attack or a gimmick/passive). You're actively punished in your performance of Whipclaw, Landslide, etc. for choosing weapons with poor weapon dispositions or modding with Faction Damage for your melee. Condition Overload and Primed Reach are also a punishment when they are core melee mods that are a staple to a normal melee loadout.

Riven Mods have absolutely no place in this discussion as they are solely meant to be a performance mod for the item you're slotting them into. Plenty of old weapons offer viable performance (especially with Rivens) if you look past Youtuber builds. A great example of this is Synapse or Machete Wraith.

Why are you defending that you need to sacrifice unrelated equipment for an ability to function properly? You do understand Mesa used to have to sacrifice her equipped secondary to pseudo-mod Regulators right? They moved to dedicated modding so it wasn't frustrating. What pseudo-Exalted abilities deal with now is dated design that only makes them frustrating to use if you're actually interested in using all of your gear.

Are you just trying to protect Khora and Gara? I don't see how the health of the game is harmed by bringing these items in line for consistent mechanics. If that happens, DE can increase or decrease numerical values to bump skills up and down to be competitive choices. This would also mean Warframes like Khora could benefit from Faction Damage Mods and not just Roar or Damage Blessings.

I may not like to touch these pseudo-Exalted abilities, but I'm most certainly aware of how they work and utilize them effectively (even with Rivens). I have used Khora and Gara quite a lot, and I also have been using Mesa since she was a 360-no-scope queen on Draco. I'm more concerned about making the game healthier and more consistent to play than continuing to keep it a mess just to preserve some power creep or keep broken rules.

[DrBorris]

As someone who has been a Stat Stick Hater for years, I should probably throw in my take.

 

Stat sticks are dumb and stupid and dumb. Let me mod the ability that affects what the ability does. And while DE's at it, "combo" for an ability is also kinda dumb. Having to spam an ability in order for it to do the only thing it is useful for is, and I really mean it this time, dumb. When you have something like Nidus where his whole shtick is getting stronk over a mission, it makes sense, his kit was designed around building up power. When I punch with Atlas or whip with Khora, it should do the thing from the get go. 

It would also be nice if these pseudo-exalted weapons were like Garuda's Talons where you could equip them as a traditional melee weapon, but that isn't necessary at all. 

[Aerophobius]

Hello fellow stat-stick haters. o/

I would like to give some nuanced (and hopefully constructive) feedback.

Let's first address the player experience when it comes to modding stat-sticks: It's a hot, flaming pile of garbage.
The modifiable stats of these abilities are never exposed to the user in-game. Outside sources are a must if you wish to learn which mods do and don't work. Converting these abilities into exalted weapons would allow players who are new to those abilities to have a comfy time modding for them.

Second, the modding itself:
Why are these abilities modifiable at all? If they need the extra damage, they should just be buffed directly, instead of using stat-sticks. There are tons of abilities that only deal plain, boring, unmodifiable damage. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of more customisation, but I prefer consistency.

Third, the paused combo counter issue:
I would argue that having an effect similar to Power Spike instead of paused combo counters would be infinitely better for balance and player satisfaction alike.

Lastly, exalted weapons in general: (Warning: heavily opinionated)
With Duviri completely ignoring them as far as selections in the cave go, I sincerely hope they'll eventually be replaced by abilities that use the equipped weapons directly instead, perhaps falling back to the default exalted weapon if no matching weapon is equipped. Note: A requirement to use the same weapon type might be necessary; e.g. bows for Ivara.
Let me give one example, since I know this will be controversial, but don't want to spend hours arguing about balance:
A Mesa using her 4th ability could gain the auto-targeting she has now, but using the equipped weapon's default projectiles/hit-scan. (Accuracy and recoil probably applying to some degree, and fall-off distance modifying auto target distance)
The ability could further remove drain from the magazine, but to compensate for balance it could modify fire rate based on magazine size and reload speed.
In addition buffing the stats of the used weapon based on power strength and augment mods would most likely be mandatory.
There are certainly other interactions to consider, but you get the basic idea. (Btw: This would also enable abilities to stay relevant even as new content & weapons are released.)

With that last point you might notice: I don't actually like the idea of doubling down on using exalted weapons. I remember reading about a distaste for exalted weapons from within the Warframe team, but I don't have any quotes, so I might be wrong. However, if I'm not mistaken this might be the reason why DE doesn't convert the pseudo exalted weapons. There may be a better solution waiting for us. Perhaps four years from now.

TLDR;
remove pseudo modding > Clem > convert to exalted weapons > keep stat-sticks