"War"frame or "Farm"frame

[SneakyErvin]

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Have you heard the term chromodynamics? 

 

See the problem? 

Accuracy of the designer. 

However there are engines that increases the level of detail. Unreal 5.2. 

Since DE don't want it, they are stuck with an IOS looking game in current times. 

 

Returning to the topic. 

Farming requires different styles that are more than just hordes and waves. These could be hordes of bosses, puzzles, exploration rewards and programmed recurrent boss fight events. 

 

Yes I have. Not that it has anything to do with this.

UE 5 does not change the relation between polycount and graphics. No idea why you think dropping an engine name matters. It kinda just shows you are further out of touch than expected. Do you even know what the polycount does?

So you mean exactly what we have in the game and more so now in Duviri? Aside from hordes of bosses that is.

[_LotusPrime_]

before we get presented any meaningful challenge , i wi ll say once again from years back , that enemies especially grineer and some infested units needs their hit-scan projectiles removed and replaced with actually dodgable corpus like projectiles .

Without doing what i just mentioned any 'supposedly' challenging endevour' or trial will be just a stat check 

They have hit scan weapons and or projectiles that function as hit-scan so they will hit you what do you do ? 

you gear up if its a guaranteed hit , so the wepon of choice is highest dps and warframe choice is either complete invulnerability or shield gate 

yes this is also a jab to archons , no theyre not hard, attenuation formula means shotguns with multishot and 1 death only plus big guarantedd damage from archons plus grineer hitscan means very limited frame choice or frame builds choice (look ;shield gating) 

[_LotusPrime_]

for example i like wht they did with small units' grenade throw once in a while , it has indicator now does more damage (or form what it feels) , instead of you taking guaranteed damage and hearing the beep at last second you can react to that huge red circle 

Theyre going more with having interactablity within the game but the rate at this happens is for my taste .. very very slow , how come ancient infested units still have the same rope attack animation from grineer scorpions ?  

When we are in the game we dont tend to think much about this stuff but it all piles up and we just passively accept its all stat check one way or another , but how come DE can implement any meaningful challenge without polishing these very old and stat checky elements of the base game . They create new content that doesnt include old stuff like duviri , nice but ppl still at least go back to old warframe gameplay for arhons now and usual fissure missions , so i think its worthy of touching

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

They have hit scan weapons and or projectiles that function as hit-scan so they will hit you what do you do ?

Move, evade, parkour, maintain optimal distance. Warframe dynamically adjusts the accuracy of hitscan attacks based on all of these factors, so if you're moving enough you can generally avoid taking health damage. Also, blocking is an option.

And if that doesn't suffice, there's always the option of using the terrain to your advantage. Putting solid cover between yourself and the shooter is almost always a viable option since with only a handful of exceptions the enemy cannot shoot through walls.

[_LotusPrime_]

Just now, Corvid said:

Move, evade, parkour, maintain optimal distance. Warframe dynamically adjusts the accuracy of hitscan attacks based on all of these factors, so if you're moving enough you can generally avoid taking health damage. Also, blocking is an option.

And if that doesn't suffice, there's always the option of using the terrain to your advantage. Putting solid cover between yourself and the shooter is almost always a viable option since with only a handful of exceptions the enemy cannot shoot through walls.

evade means in warframe either rolling , sliding , jumping or using melee guard or running , outside of using melee guard , if somethings is a hit-scan , that means it WILL hit the player , damage reduction while rolling (i dont mean rolling guard mod) means not much when the enemy is 20 and all their damage numbers scale better than the player .

You said solid covers , bombard's aoe is still does not have loss of sights afaik , and while you cover how youre gonna dps in this game ? warframe currently and for a long time period is a heavy dps/kps check game , if youre behind cover in that split second it means a lose in survival or in a time limited exterminate or in void cascade

[_LotusPrime_]

15 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Move, evade, parkour, maintain optimal distance. Warframe dynamically adjusts the accuracy of hitscan attacks based on all of these factors, so if you're moving enough you can generally avoid taking health damage. Also, blocking is an option.

And if that doesn't suffice, there's always the option of using the terrain to your advantage. Putting solid cover between yourself and the shooter is almost always a viable option since with only a handful of exceptions the enemy cannot shoot through walls.

moreso , even if you disregard my previous reply , there is a reason why people opt to using rolling guard and shield gate together , it is becuase game's vanilla version doesn't ofer enough organic opportunities that will make parkour relevant or make reaction timers relevant 

even moreso , by definition hit-scans remove any skill expression , when somethings guaranteed to hit , it doesnt matter how much damage reduction you have , it means , it , will , hit , now you can have enough i-frames or dmage reduction so that you nullify that bad experience but from a 'game' perspective , it doesnt allow you to play really other than building section in your orbiter.

if words are complicated for anyone reading this ; hit-scan = it will hit = doesnt matter if you can chew thru = means no skill expression = if ya want more skill expression = means remove hit-scan firt = then you can implement challenge and see from there

[_LotusPrime_]

before anyone responds with ; 'but warframes are so agile and jumpy they will not get hit by anything' ...... well sherlock thats the whole point isn't it , using parkour DE gave you so you use it in your advantage , we would stil have crazy i-frames and shied gating and nidus health gating etc. it would just allow other builds and frames to shine , its healthy . 

 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes I have. Not that it has anything to do with this.

No you don't. But you could learn. There are good PDF that introduces the topic in simple terms. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

UE 5 does not change the relation between polycount and graphics.

It's a graphic engine. That's exactly what it does. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No idea why you think dropping an engine name matters.

Their graphics sucks. Of course their art style is good and their design. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It kinda just shows you are further out of touch than expected. Do you even know what the polycount does?

Frame rate among other things. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you mean exactly what we have in the game and more so now in Duviri? Aside from hordes of bosses that is.

No, we don't have that in Duviri. 

 

Different circumstances where the player gets their reward. An alternative such as complete sets, a full frame or weapons. The risk should be rewarded. Those who addresses high difficulty may get better rewards without the long time of waiting. 

[Corvid]

48 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

if somethings is a hit-scan , that means it WILL hit the player

What part of "Enemy accuracy is adjusted dynamically" is so hard to understand?

When an enemy in Warframe tries to launch a hit-scan attack, it checks several factors, including how fast its target is moving, whether the target is currently performing a parkour manoeuvre, and how far away the target is vs the effective range of its weapon (closer usually, but not always, translating to a higher hit rate). From this, it works out its hit chance as a percentage (for example 40%).

It will then fire a set number of bullets, with each shot having a random chance of hitting informed by that percentage (so if the enemy fires 5 shots with the above accuracy rating of 40%, on average 2 of them will hit).

Thus it is possible for an enemy with a hitscan attack to miss. If this wasn't the case, Grineer Ballistae would not have their current reputation of being unable to hit the broad side of a barn (which, by the way, is because they're an exception to the above "closer means higher accuracy" rule. Their chance to hit is actually better when you're at long range).

And even if this weren't the case, if every single bullet fired from a hitscan weapon always hit its target, there are still ways to make hitscan attacks dodgeable. The most obvious one to spring to mind is to have indicators for where hitscan enemies are about to fire. The attack itself would still be hitscan, but players would have a chance to get clear of the target vector.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Felsagger said:

It's a graphic engine. That's exactly what it does. 

Their graphics sucks. Of course their art style is good and their design. 

Frame rate among other things. 

No, we don't have that in Duviri. 

 

Different circumstances where the player gets their reward. An alternative such as complete sets, a full frame or weapons. The risk should be rewarded. Those who addresses high difficulty may get better rewards without the long time of waiting. 

No not really, it doesnt automatically make more better, because the same drawbacks of having too much are the same.

Whos graphics? What are you even talking about here? Asked why you think dropping an engine name matters. You're aware of the term "dropping names" right? Or is that another "new" term you arent familiar with?

Is it possible to give a more generic and clueless answer to that question? Everything has to do with "frame rate among other things", no matter if it is sound, graphics or something as simple as a basic UI.

No one said we have it all in Duviri, I said "more so now with Duviri" since Duviri brought exactly what you asked for, puzzles and exploration that are tied to rewards, full sets at that. Also, what you demand here is also part of the game already and has been since Voruna released, where higher difficulty did improve rewards. We actually also already had it before that with disruptions, content that tests your builds more than regular missions while also allows you to focus on specific relics. Not to mention that ESO followed the same principle, higher difficulty than normal with specific items tied to it along with pre-radiated relics. And Duviri follows that with SP being a far better way to farm the Wyrm, giving you a 50% more Pathos per run.

As to bosses, well we have them in SP even though they are 1-hit-wonders for most players due to our insane power progression. But then again people struggle with Eximus units, so the acolytes surely fit the boss bill for some.

[_LotusPrime_]

16 hours ago, Corvid said:

 

Thus it is possible for an enemy with a hitscan attack to miss. If this wasn't the case, Grineer Ballistae would not have their current reputation of being unable to hit the broad side of a barn (which, by the way, is because they're an exception to the above "closer means higher accuracy" rule. Their chance to hit is actually better when you're at long range).

 

okay you gave a better input than i expected , sure when youre doing certain (deffinatly not all) manevour/parkour moves game  makes the equation introduce chance to not hit for hit-scans but this does not go against what i said earlier anyways , effectively speaking we are in a kps and dps era within the game , when you are not dps'ing it means youre losing 

in other terms trying to roll or bunny jump between your shots really hurts your dps in higher levels (at 500 or so level inaros dies from a single accurate nullfier sniper btw) , with the archon hunts introduced i dont think casual player base is far away from this reality either , regardless of your warframe diet , trying to dodge miliseconds' bulets firing from 20 different guys is a waste of your effort when some of it will certianly hit even with the before-mentioned formula , it is better to just get an aoe / semi aoe / lots of punch thru weapon and mod it well , in level 100's or so maybe it could save someone with 75% damage reduc dodging but thats about it , im not even factoring in now all sorts of eximus unit attacks one of which is so high burst that at steel path entrance level it does over30k clean burst in one go , this is conjucntion with every othe rthing that warframe enemy units throw at you , if warframe wasnt a horde game in 2014 or 13 well it is now , it is practically insane to even try to dodge all the things 

Going back to my main point , that is why , if DE wants skill expresiion in their space ninja (tm) game , hit-scan needs to go across the board , i dont care if they removed hit-scans from us as well , it wouldnt make much difference for us truth be told , but it would make world-of-difference if they remvoed hit-scans from enemy units , it would open up so many possibilities.

[Corvid]

39 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

effectively speaking we are in a kps and dps era within the game , when you are not dps'ing it means youre losing 

Irrelevant. Your argument was that hitscan is fundamentally incompatible with skill-based play. That has now been disproven.

[_LotusPrime_]

37 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Irrelevant. Your argument was that hitscan is fundamentally incompatible with skill-based play. That has now been disproven.

your saying irrelevant doesn't make it so , hitscan is incompatible with skill based gameplay , dodging some of it when 20 guys firing you is effectively useless , in warframe terms you get damage reduc for rolling and for moving the accuracy gets reduced this would have an impact if enemy count was to be low but even at not the worst scenario which is exactly 20 enemies shotting meleeing you at once and with no LoS AoE' s , lets say 5-10 of the still does effectively 25% damage to u with rolling  , your frame dies in very high levels and sometimes even in lvl 100's depending on the enemy type.

now that was the long answer which youre not gonna respect so im just going go also deliver one that is quippy like yours' .

what youre saying isnt whats true in practise , youre tangling up on few descriptions , youre not looking how its played out in real time , that is a lack of analysis skills.

to make it even shorter , lack of analysis skills you show .

[_LotusPrime_]

44 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Irrelevant. Your argument was that hitscan is fundamentally incompatible with skill-based play. That has now been disproven.

also by giving this snarky little comment , you have proven you deserve no attention from me , you can have argument with others , your level of honesty is as realistic as trying to give real field soldiers how to detect mines without any real detectors or hints and saying just dodge lulz 

effectively you saying by doing any parkour , the enemies having lower acccuracy is basically you handling the scenario on 1to 1 basis which fails in consideration that there are 20 enemies in any given mission (or so dont get hung up on details its quite definately more than 10 or 15) , and not considering enemy having aoe's that even go through limbo stasis bubble , gara ult mirror and frost's bubble 

your 1 to 1 basis is so bad its inch away from being an insult thats how bad it is. and sorry i had to say it if you get offended

[_LotusPrime_]

yet i have to repeat myself again if youre not melee'ing / priming enemies with status / shotting with aoe or punch thru etc. youre losing on dps front , just to get your health reduced for all that effort and you killed half of the enemies you couldve killed by just pressing buttons 

now im not defending camping but as long as hit-scans will exist , yes this will be the main start ppl will opt to for high level content or just opting to i-frames or full shield-gating exclusively , this restricts builds and is a bandaid for lack of free skill expression on the game , im repeating , you can go for i-frames and shield gate refresh spam for not camping but that is only a band aid , youre effectively isolating your real hp from your enemies , you are countering enemy guaranteed dps check with guaranteed not will be hit mechanics.

now for those of you that havent thought about this before you may be questoning what im saying but effectively this is what invulnerability frames or shield-gating does. and no i am not asking for nerfs or removal , i am just saying if DE team wants real challenge or any tangible skill expreession all-be-it small , they still need to competely get rid of hit-scans first , any chnge without that being done first will quite deffinately affect the game badly.

ıf they want skill expression even for a tiny scale , they have to get rid of hit-scans and then they can feel free to expreiment with core mechanics but as it stands out , missions realistically starts and ends at mod building screens not in actual missions themselves as of right now.

[_LotusPrime_]

i dont like to clog the comment section this much im sory but i have to give another view on what i was saying earlier ;

also in warframe , there are enemies that will shoot out of our direct screen view , we can see them with radar mods but thats about it (this assumes someone doesnt camp or doesnt use i-frames , shield gating) 

in high levels and sometimes starting from lvl100's depending on enemy type , 2 enemies shotting behind your back can mean deth (with no i-frames or shield gate ,with them yes it doesnt matter and thats why ppl go for those than jumping like bunnies and try to shoot in air like a maniac , it looks cool but not effective) 

[_LotusPrime_]

and no im not writing these after i claimed to not respond to corvid , im writing these for the purpose of viewers seeing my point , its not about tangling on few descriptions or debating on semantics , we have to analyze based on how it plays out in the game 

giving example from another game ; league , if you just read some of the champions ability descriptions you would think that would be incredibly broken , but you know or people know thats not how it plays out in a match , in the lane , in teamfights or in skirmishes etc.

     Sheer math that is one on one basis doesn't reflect a mission in warframe with 20 enemies and  enemy units having all different sorts of attacks , some homing , some aoe , grineer mostly having hit-scans , some even detachces your weapon , some have cc affects even , some are rope attacks like ancient units or scorpions (ancient unitss still aply energy loss dot if theyre certain type still so good luck dodging 5 of disruptor ancient at once while dps'ing)   .. etc and etc.

[Felsagger]

14 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No not really, it doesnt automatically make more better, because the same drawbacks of having too much are the same.

Whos graphics? What are you even talking about here? Asked why you think dropping an engine name matters. You're aware of the term "dropping names" right? Or is that another "new" term you arent familiar with?

Is it possible to give a more generic and clueless answer to that question? Everything has to do with "frame rate among other things", no matter if it is sound, graphics or something as simple as a basic UI.

 

You have zero clue what a graphic engine is. 

Don't worry. You will know until you use one. 

[cute_moth.npc]

This thread has like 3 concurrent unrelated discussions going in it now. I came for the Warfarm and stayed for the pixel counts! 

12 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

and no im not writing these after i claimed to not respond to corvid , im writing these for the purpose of viewers seeing my point , its not about tangling on few descriptions or debating on semantics , we have to analyze based on how it plays out in the game 

giving example from another game ; league , if you just read some of the champions ability descriptions you would think that would be incredibly broken , but you know or people know thats not how it plays out in a match , in the lane , in teamfights or in skirmishes etc.

     Sheer math that is one on one basis doesn't reflect a mission in warframe with 20 enemies and  enemy units having all different sorts of attacks , some homing , some aoe , grineer mostly having hit-scans , some even detachces your weapon , some have cc affects even , some are rope attacks like ancient units or scorpions (ancient unitss still aply energy loss dot if theyre certain type still so good luck dodging 5 of disruptor ancient at once while dps'ing)   .. etc and etc.

I feel like you are kind of rude with how you're writing to people on here on the one hand, but on the other hand this is completely true.

Enemy accuracy increases as their levels increase and at some point it becomes unnaturally high. On top of that, as they increase in levels, the consequences of being grazed by a bullet that the game decided "hit you" after deducting accuracy from all of the moves you're doing changes from being a plink on your shields into a complete loss of that shield. 

Dodging really only gets you so far in Warframe because it's all based on fuzzy math instead of something you can actually truly dodge.

Ironically, the only time that dodging works really well is when enemies are low to mid level and dodging is largely inconsequential ^^;

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

This thread has like 3 concurrent unrelated discussions going in it now. I came for the Warfarm and stayed for the pixel counts! 

Don't try to be smart. Have fun. 

 

You want to be smart then study Chromodynamics, Parametric Architecture, Mathematics and Physics, Structural Analysis among many other options. 

Do you want to be really smart? DON'T PLAY VIDEO GAMES AT ALL. 

AI right now is slow, dumb and clueless. Pose no challenge and games are designed to make people feel a placebo pampering their boring quotidian life. 

You want to be smart? Play Chess. Master the art of prediction and probable trees of possible scenarios. 

 

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I feel like you are kind of rude with how you're writing to people on here on the one hand, but on the other hand this is completely true.

But LOTUS PRIME IS CORRECT. 

 

He's not rude. He's writing truth. There's a difference. 

 

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Enemy accuracy increases as their levels increase and at some point it becomes unnaturally high.

ENEMY AI sucks ass. That's why this game is so mf boring. 

 

All the time the enemy needs MILITARY accuracy, better weapons and power nullifiers against tenno, drifter and the Warframe. The enemy here is the dumbest, dimwitted, stupidest thing ever done in a video game. 

 

 

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

 

On top of that, as they increase in levels, the consequences of being grazed by a bullet that the game decided "hit you" after deducting accuracy from all of the moves you're doing changes from being a plink on your shields into a complete loss of that shield. 

Enemies SHOULD COME already with top ranked aim accuracy, fierce aggression, heavy weapons, massive firing and all the military stuff they are supposed to do INSTEAD of having PLAY STATION 2 era AI. 

 

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Dodging really only gets you so far in Warframe because it's all based on fuzzy math instead of something you can actually truly dodge.

 

But games are supposed to be based ON SKILL. 

Such as: Reflexes, quicktime reaction, path prediction of the enemy, aim accuracy, aim switching between targets, reward PRECISION, reward JUDGEMENT, reward RETREAT when forces are staggering. 

This is the game THAT NEVER HAPPENED in Warframe. 

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Ironically, the only time that dodging works really well is when enemies are low to mid level and dodging is largely inconsequential ^^;

Dodging IS and MUST be fundamental in any game. It is in Battlefield 2042, it is in Titanfall 2, it is in many games that are SKILL ORIENTED. 

[cute_moth.npc]

59 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

He's not rude. He's writing truth. There's a difference

Truthfulness is lost when delivered in an abrasive fashion, people tend to not want to listen.

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Dodging IS and MUST be fundamental in any game. It is in Battlefield 2042, it is in Titanfall 2, it is in many games that are SKILL ORIENTED. 

 

It is for action games usually, but it obviously doesn't really work in Warframe forever! Special attacks can usually be dodged although there are some old holdouts that have terrible telegraphs.

I think that the thing is that even if you converted all of the enemies to fire dodgeable projectiles, you'd still end up getting hit a lot in this game because it's also not structured like skill based games where you're given a chance.

In Returnal, its possible to get hit from behind.. It's also your fault. It means you let something flank you. Otherwise, you can actually see when each enemy is going to attack and they don't do it all at once. It's still one of the hardest games to come out in years. How would you make a dodgeable system in a game with random hordes, then why would it matter when you have the ability to become invisible? Why would smart a.i. matter if I can vortex a crowd into a ball? The a.i. literally can't smart it's way around the things we can do anyways. 

They can barely balance weapons, let alone introduce new a.i., remove all of the gear cheese and introduce new gameplay mechanics like dodgeable projectiles instead of relying on number bloat that would make it possible to turn Warframe from a gear based game into a skill based game. Those things that never happened in Warframe will almost certainly never happen in Warframe? I'm really curious, I know you spend a lot of time railing against this game and how it has developed so like.. Is there any part of it still in place now that you actually do like? They're not going to remake this game into what you want when they can't even go back to remake stale old game modes.

The game design from a skill based perspective is broken through to the core, is there something else you like about it at all though?

I like to play this to surf around blasting stuff, make weird builds and things like that. It's kind of fun to just crush with a bubble gun that fires so fast I get complaints from console players lol. This is more like break time from games like Ori or Returnal that feature ninja gameplay action than it is real ninja action but it's okay. I feel like if you're really holding out for them to do those things though, you're probably better off playing something else while you wait..

I like to play games because I have to try and be smart all day and it is tiring.

Have you tried Returnal yet? :)

 

[xXFlippyXx]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Do you want to be really smart? DON'T PLAY VIDEO GAMES AT ALL. 

...

You want to be smart? Play Chess. Master the art of prediction and probable trees of possible scenarios. 

this is a very narrow and flawed statement

I've tried to type more but i've deleted it five or six times because the scope always got out of hand. Just not a very smart thing of you to say 

[_LotusPrime_]

im not saying warframe should be a dodge based game ,

i actually do sort of appreciate that warframe experience is a bit unique in the industry , what i critisize is that DE at times act ike they care about skill issue in the game and so trying to vaguely shift to meta towards more skill expression but it generally fails because years on years they clearly built a lot of roadblocks on the consensus of the game being dealing with hordes (and so hit-scans and elements of both players and enemies doing guaranteed hit mechanics stayed becuase of that)  , hopefully they get their wish on 'soulsframe' ( i think the name could be a bit more innovative there ) having said that i believe they can make warframe (not soulsframe) somehwat of a skill check allbeit not levels of soulslike (they can very well do that in soulsframe i have absolutely no problem with that) , in its own  'warframey' way 

[_LotusPrime_]

11 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Truthfulness is lost when delivered in an abrasive fashion, people tend to not want to listen.

agreed , but we are human after all , we can control only so much , i was actually holding back , and yes felsagger person seems to be even more angry than i do :d

[ant99999]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Don't try to be smart. Have fun. 

 

You want to be smart then study Chromodynamics, Parametric Architecture, Mathematics and Physics, Structural Analysis among many other options. 

Do you want to be really smart? DON'T PLAY VIDEO GAMES AT ALL. 

- Don't try to be smart

- Immediately "tries to be smart"

 

You know, sometimes you enter a thread you haven't read since the beginning and stumble upon gems like this. One of more positive features of the forums.