Can DE JUST MAKE ABANDONING LICHES AN OPTION?!

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

3 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

You are a new player and you come to the locked door. It says you need a dragon key. Without using a wiki or asking someone, how do you figure out how to open it?

I don't. 

I come back to the mission another time. It will be figured out eventually either just by, building a dojo myself or, investigating what can be researched in the various dojo labs.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

There definitely needs to be a way even if it's only available up until a certain mastery rank. Most newer players are going to click on the thrall that has a picture of a weapon floating above their head. It's not explained at all what they will be locked in to.

[Cerikus]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

I don't. 

I come back to the mission another time. It will be figured out eventually either just by, building a dojo myself or, investigating what can be researched in the various dojo labs.

One of, if not the most imporant farms in the game and it's suppose to be figured out eventually by accident.

Great design.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

10 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

The simplest example is modding in Warframe. It's never explained and it's the most important thing. And it's killing a lot of new possible new players.

Modding is the simplest thing, I agree. Put on 90% fire mod, weapon gains 90% fire damage. Put on +cc, weapon gains +cc

If new players can't figure that out on their own, I dont want them to be players at all. Go play, I dunno, with some sticks and a rock if thats too complex

[Skoomaseller]

11 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

You are reporting very extreme situations man, if lack of clarity meant the death of a game, the Dark souls franchise would be long dead, but a lot of people love it, including that lack of clarity, some people like things not to be so clear.

it is not extreme to say player retention is affected by how clear the mechanics are in a given game.

correct me if I'm wrong, but dark souls games are built on recognizing the patterns of your foe. trial and error. that is the appeal of the game in the first place, and also why it turns off so many other gamers while also being equally popular.

warframe is not dark souls. warframe is about flying into missions and killing mooks left and right, and getting more powerful as you play.

so far the game has survived because the community is able to help DE with their incompetence in providing crucial info regarding how to power up. it's not a good thing, it's actually shameful how after 10 years ingame info is still so #*!%ed.

it's good that the community helps newbies out a lot but DE should really get a clue and actually ensure players are informed.

it's simply retarded to have to trial & error through a game overloaded with various gameplay mechanics.

no one is asking for extreme handholding, but important info like what frame to use for what progenitor element, how to get certain mods, etc, should REALLY be more clear.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

1 minute ago, Skoomaseller said:

it is not extreme to say player retention is affected by how clear the mechanics are in a given game.

correct me if I'm wrong, but dark souls games are built on recognizing the patterns of your foe. trial and error. that is the appeal of the game in the first place, and also why it turns off so many other gamers while also being equally popular.

warframe is not dark souls. warframe is about flying into missions and killing mooks left and right, and getting more powerful as you play.

so far the game has survived because the community is able to help DE with their incompetence in providing crucial info regarding how to power up. it's not a good thing, it's actually shameful how after 10 years ingame info is still so #*!%ed.

it's good that the community helps newbies out a lot but DE should really get a clue and actually ensure players are informed.

it's simply retarded to have to trial & error through a game overloaded with various gameplay mechanics.

no one is asking for extreme handholding, but important info like what frame to use for what progenitor element, how to get certain mods, etc, should REALLY be more clear.

I don't disagree. Figuring out lich elements would suck without Google. A search for "where to find this mod" in the codex would be nice too

[RafMatador22]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Cool.

Warframe isn't Dark Souls or Fromsoft now is it?

Also, doesn't work because Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Sekiro all have developer messages that tell you the mechanics of the game right there at the start.

To compare, we still have players that don't know that rolling through the Eximus attacks can avoid them completely, because unless you literally use outside resource you wouldn't know.

And how would you KNOW?

You literally unlock the ability to make Kuva Liches the moment War Within is finished, and chances are while also already done Rising Tides since that's unlocked from Second Dream.

Which is unlocked from MR5 by the way.

How would you know that it's a Late Game, not supposed to be new player experience, and not just another mechanic change like... Archwing, or the aforementioned Railjack.

Again.

At no point, should an external resource be needed to understand the basic mechanics of a system.

Warframe is bad enough that  like Proc Limits, and status chance weightage and all that jazz is under several layers of 'Learn from Youtubers'. The sheer basics of The Kuva Lich System should NOT BE 'Something you research'.

It should be explained in game, by top to bottom, like ANY GOOD MECHANIC should.

Alright buddy, if you'd like the game to hold your hand, over all the action you're going to do, that's fine, it's everyone's right, I don't like it. The lack of clarity doesn't bother me because I do research beforehand about what it will entail for me. Come on, a sound effect appears with a drum playing, and an old woman's voice in the middle of the capture mission, with a red symbol that I've never seen. I would honestly do the minimum research before doing this, a research that I would do for example to face a boss in dark souls too. Heck, the kuva lich even shows the weakness of elements to counter them.

[Cerikus]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Modding is the simplest thing, I agree. Put on 90% fire mod, weapon gains 90% fire damage. Put on +cc, weapon gains +cc

If new players can't figure that out on their own, I dont want them to be players at all. Go play, I dunno, with some sticks and a rock if thats too complex

What kind of awful elitism is this? If modding is so simple, can you tell me (without wiki):

- the difference between Serration and Bane of Grineer
- the difference between + % Heat mod and + % Slash mod
- how shotgun status works

And if you know, how did you find out?

Also... I know you may be not capable to imagine, but for a new player, fusion, polarities and capacity is absolute madness to comprehend.

Don't know if you know JoshStrifeHayes, but when he did his review of the game, this was one of the biggest critiques. That man didn't even equip melee stance for his entire review, becuase he didn't even know what it is and that he can equip it, because the game didn't tell him.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Cerikus

[(PSN)rexis12]

Just now, RafMatador22 said:

if you'd like the game to hold your hand, over all the action you're going to do

Homeboy, I would like the game to tell me that doing this action would activate a #*!%ing reoccurring mini boss that will 'take over' a planet, and that the only way to kill them is to play Simon says with Requiem Relics, which can only be obtained from Kuva Siphons, another thing that I'm pretty sure isn't explained in game.

Literally just the basics of the system being explained, isn't 'Handholding'. It's not handholding when Dark Souls tells you that using Humanity can kindle Bonfires, it's not handholding either to just explain the basics of the Kuva Lich System.

Reminder that the game does not tell you that Mercy Killing a Larva will spawn a Lich, nor does it explain Requiem Relic acquisitions.

These should not be things that need to be 'Researched'. This should be things explained in game, because THEY ARE THE BASICS OF THE MECHANICS.

4 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Come on, a sound effect appears with a drum playing, and an old woman's voice in the middle of the capture mission, with a red symbol that I've never seen. I would honestly do the minimum research before doing this, a research that I would do for example to face a boss in dark souls too. Heck, the kuva lich even shows the weakness of elements to counter them

All of this happens AFTER you spawn the Lich by the by, which a player might not want because they are not explained that what they did would spawn a Lich.

 

 

It's such a dumb thing that Warframe players pride themselves on their game having unexplained mechanics in their game. Like, my guy, that's not a thing to be proud of. If a game has to rely on the goddamn internet to explain the literal basics of a mechanic, then it's a S#&$ty mechanic.

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

That man didn't even equip melee stance for his entire review,

I had a friend that played without melee stances, and when asked he said:

"I don't have enough Mod Space"

And it hit me, that yeah it would make #*!%ing sense to think that putting in a mod would take up mod space. And not the other way around where it would GIVE you more mod space.

[Skoomaseller]

11 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Alright buddy, if you'd like the game to hold your hand, over all the action you're going to do, that's fine, it's everyone's right, I don't like it.

are you dense lol? the argument in this two-page thread is simply that info should be more readily available in-game. this isn't handholding.

No one is asking for the game to handhold players.

now you're doing the thing you accused Cerikus of, lol.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

16 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

What kind of awful elitism is this? If modding is so simple, can you tell me (without wiki):

- the difference between Serration and Bane of Grineer
- the difference between + % Heat mod and + % Slash mod
- how shotgun status works

And if you know, how did you find out?

Also... I know you may be not capable, but for a new player, fusion, polarities and capacity is absolute madness to comprehend.

Don't know if you know JoshStrifeHayes, but when he did his review of the game, this was one of the biggest critiques. That man didn't even equip melee stance for his entire review, becuase he didn't even know what it is and that he can equip it, because the game didn't tell him.

Serration is "generally everything" but bane of Grineer is Grineer only? (I wouldn't know about the fancy special effects with Slash tbh) but I'd figure out, huh, it does more damage. 

I'd never figure out that +Slash only improves the chances of slashprocs, not Slash proc damage. I'd eventually figure out that +90% heat does more damage than +90% slash, through trial and error. I wouldn't be able to figure out why tho

Shotgun status, I'd eventually figure that out with math, seeing how the numbers change in comparison to multishot and using different weapons to compare. 

Fusion? Like mod fusion to make new mods? I dont touch that except for NW, looked like gambling.

Polarities and capacity are a piece of cake too. Warframe has 15 capacity, mod eats 7, warframe has 8 capacity left. For some reason the Warframes capacity is the same as it's rank (huh) Polarities and capacity are, if someone cant figure that out I suspect they have to ask mom and dad for permission to even play Warframe.

 

 

Also, no clue who JoshStrifeHayes is, I don't watch YouTube or yourubers. Youtubers are not the smartest bunch. They make videos on youtube for a living

Edited June 13, 2023 by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily

[RafMatador22]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Homeboy, I would like the game to tell me that doing this action would activate a #*!%ing reoccurring mini boss that will 'take over' a planet, and that the only way to kill them is to play Simon says with Requiem Relics, which can only be obtained from Kuva Siphons, another thing that I'm pretty sure isn't explained in game.

Literally just the basics of the system being explained, isn't 'Handholding'. It's not handholding when Dark Souls tells you that using Humanity can kindle Bonfires, it's not handholding either to just explain the basics of the Kuva Lich System.

Reminder that the game does not tell you that Mercy Killing a Larva will spawn a Lich, nor does it explain Requiem Relic acquisitions.

These should not be things that need to be 'Researched'. This should be things explained in game, because THEY ARE THE BASICS OF THE MECHANICS.

All of this happens AFTER you spawn the Lich by the by, which a player might not want because they are not explained that what they did would spawn a Lich.

 

 

It's such a dumb thing that Warframe players pride themselves on their game having unexplained mechanics in their game. Like, my guy, that's not a thing to be proud of. If a game has to rely on the goddamn internet to explain the literal basics of a mechanic, then it's a S#&$ty mechanic.

I repeat, I'm speaking for myself, the lack of clarity doesn't bother me, probably this game would have lost all the fun for me if I already knew everything I was supposed to do before even starting.

[Skoomaseller]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

 but bane of Grineer is Grineer only? (I wouldn't know about the fancy special effects with Slash tbh)

 

1 minute ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

I'd never figure out that +Slash only improves the chances of slashprocs, not Slash proc damage.

 

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

I wouldn't be able to figure out why tho

You have arrived at the crux of the issue.

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Serration is "generally everything" but bane of Grineer is Grineer only?

'Buzzer'

And already you got things wrong.

Serration is an increase to base damage, additive to base damage.

Banes are Multiplicative, as in they will increase the final modded damage.

Would you have figured that out?

 

[Skoomaseller]

2 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

I repeat, I'm speaking for myself, the lack of clarity doesn't bother me, probably this game would have lost all the fun for me if I already knew everything I was supposed to do before even starting.

Yes, well, this thread was made by a player who, as a result of the lack of info ingame (a very real problem, no matter if it "doesn't bother you") is venting their frustration on General Discussion.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Fair enough. some things can be sorta figured out through trial and error but not everything 

I'm not saying handholding or info is bad. But I'm saying trial and error or figuring things out is nice. Or it would be nice if possible for everything 

Edited June 13, 2023 by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily

[Cerikus]

Just now, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Fair enough. some things can be sorta figured out through trial and error but not everything 

I'm not saying handholding or info is bad. But I'm saying trial and error or figuring things out is nice. Or it would be nice if possible for everything 

I can agree with that. Making a build for Steel path can be trial and error or look it up on Google.

How do I play and how core systems work MUST be explained.

[RafMatador22]

6 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

Yes, well, this thread was made by a player who, as a result of the lack of info ingame (a very real problem, no matter if it "doesn't bother you") is venting their frustration on General Discussion.

Well, this is not a private topic as far as I know, I have full right to express if it bothers me or not, or if this is a problem for me or not. I just expressed that for me this is not a problem, I didn't curse anyone here at all, so I certainly didn't do anything wrong not to be able to express my opinion.

[Skoomaseller]

4 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Well, this is not a private topic as far as I know, I have full right to express if it bothers me or not, or if this is a problem for me or not. I just expressed that for me this is not a problem, I didn't curse anyone here at all, so I certainly didn't do anything wrong not to be able to express my opinion.

You are definitely free to express your opinion. I'm just telling you that it's stupid lol

[RafMatador22]

1 minute ago, Skoomaseller said:

You are definitely free to express your opinion. I'm just telling you that it's stupid lol

Alright, so what? your problem.

[Cerikus]

Just now, RafMatador22 said:

Alright, so what? your problem.

You remind me of my teacher at primary school a long time ago. My compasses slipped while drawing and it pierced my skin on my hand. I said I need to go to the bathroom because I was bleeding. The teacher said: Alright, go. It's not my problem.

[Skoomaseller]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

I'm not saying handholding or info is bad. But I'm saying trial and error or figuring things out is nice. Or it would be nice if possible for everything  

And that is fine. 

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

 I still stand by my previous statement tho. If a player can't figure out how mod capacity and drain works, putting 7 drain mod on rank 15 Warframe, or matching symbols to half the drain for example, I dont want them playing Warframe. 

Cut the new players some slack, they're interfacing with something they're not familiar with.

And cut that attitude out. Let's not give new players any more headaches please.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

3 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

And that is fine. 

Cut the new players some slack, they're interfacing with something they're not familiar with.

And cut that attitude out. It's not necessary to demean them that way.

Oh that was fast, I edited that comment in, thought better, and edited it back out again. 

It shouldn't exist, my bad. I had changed my mind 

[RafMatador22]

6 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

You remind me of my teacher at primary school a long time ago. My compasses slipped while drawing and it pierced my skin on my hand. I said I need to go to the bathroom because I was bleeding. The teacher said: Alright, go. It's not my problem.

Um, kind of weird comparison... The "his problem" I referred to specifically refers to the fact that he thinks my opinion is stupid. which is very different from me seeing a person bleeding in front of me and saying, well "that's your problem". It's not because I disagree with you, that I'm a maniac, if you have that kind of thought, sorry but it's very childish.