The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Just answer yes or no.

It’s not a yes or no question that you’re asking, it’s a “Hey, they’re doing the equivilant of shieldgating abuse” point that you’re trying to make, which no they’re not doing the equivilant of what shieldgate abuse does

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Just answer yes or no.

You seem to be really struggling with identifying what endless invincibility does and why it’s not a thing that fundamental game mechanics are designed around. Shieldgate is a mechanic that prevents oneshots; shieldgate abuse is when players build in specific ways to turn that oneshot prevention into endless invincibility. It’s particularly weird because abusing it involves running counter to the design it was meant for, which is as an every-so-often event that gives players a grace period instead of a constantly-triggered event that provides invincibility

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s not a yes or no question that you’re asking, it’s a “Hey, they’re doing the equivilant of shieldgating abuse” point that you’re trying to make, which no they’re not doing the equivilant of what shieldgate abuse does

Ok good enough now on to my point. What these players where doing was sitting in a frost bubble the whole run, and in case you dont how the bubble works it works similarly to rhinos iron skin where it is invulnerable for 3 secs and the damage absorbed in that time is converted to health for the bubble. Whenever the bubble goes down the frost has to recast it immediately or the party dies, if they need to leave the bubble frost casts avalanche to hard cc everything around to protect the party from stay fire. This was a common star back in the day sometimes done with volt, this strat is "abusing" the mechanics of the frost bubble in order to fully utilize its effectiveness just like with shield gating.

And its not just the bubble camp strat either, nekros and pilfer khora teams are "abusing" the mechanics of the extra loot dropping effects to fully utilize use to full effectiveness or even just every day builds like hunter munitions pairing it with viral or bane to "abuse" the damage multipliers to buff the heck out of the slash tics, or even using primers but a ton of different status effects to "abuse" condition overloads effect, or when building for specific warfame abilities, ect.. Yet when it comes to fully utilize the shield gate mechanic its the only one that that is hated on and gets twisted into something its not for whatever reason.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ok good enough now on to my point. What these players where doing was sitting in a frost bubble the whole run, and in case you dont how the bubble works it works similarly to rhinos iron skin where it is invulnerable for 3 secs and the damage absorbed in that time is converted to health for the bubble. Whenever the bubble goes down the frost has to recast it immediately or the party dies, if they need to leave the bubble frost casts avalanche to hard cc everything around to protect the party from stay fire. This was a common star back in the day sometimes done with volt, this strat is "abusing" the mechanics of the frost bubble in order to fully utilize its effectiveness just like with shield gating.

And its not just the bubble camp strat either, nekros and pilfer khora teams are "abusing" the mechanics of the extra loot dropping effects to fully utilize use to full effectiveness or even just every day builds like hunter munitions pairing it with viral or bane to "abuse" the damage multipliers to buff the heck out of the slash tics, or even using primers but a ton of different status effects to "abuse" condition overloads effect, or when building for specific warfame abilities, ect.. Yet when it comes to fully utilize the shield gate mechanic its the only one that that is hated on and gets twisted into something its not for whatever reason.

Because you’re getting into the fuzzy area of what’s abuse and what’s not. Bringing some SP-built weapon to a level 50 mission could be viewed as abuse, but is it? The mission’s designed for level 50 builds with whatever amounts of survival and damage level 50 content asks for at minimum, not SP builds and whatever amounts of survival and damage that content asks for, but the game certainly doesn’t stop us and in fact being able to do that facilitates fun alternative ways to play.

Shieldgate abuse on the other hand is… really weird. It often gets crapped on by tryhard players who desperately want to use it because they have a sort of cognitive dissonance where their capability for play is determined by how cheesy they can get but they don’t want to admit it and wish the game didn’t dangle cheese options in front of them

From a fundamental standpoint though using shieldgate abuse requires that someone not only abandon core gameplay mechanics like not losing all their shields and whatever gameplay they’d have to engage with to prevent that from happening (unless they were using something that’s specifically designed to consume shield), but it actually makes it so that by abandoning shields they can go infinitely. That’s weird, and though I personally don’t mind its existence, expecting shieldgate abuse to not be one of the mechanics potentially up for the chop as something unintentional (despite DE saying otherwise to set players at ease) or, worse yet, asking that the game be designed around it as a baseline, is nothing short of extremely questionable

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Shieldgate abuse on the other hand is… really weird. It often gets crapped on by tryhard players who desperately want to use it because they have a sort of cognitive dissonance where their capability for play is determined by how cheesy they can get but they don’t want to admit it and wish the game didn’t dangle cheese options in front of them

How bout you try the shield gate strat yourself and see just how not cheesy it actually is, I guarantee if people only want to cheese the game they would just use invisibility.

 

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

From a fundamental standpoint though using shieldgate abuse requires that someone not only abandon core gameplay mechanics like not losing all their shields and whatever gameplay they’d have to engage with to prevent that from happening (unless they were using something that’s specifically designed to consume shield), but it actually makes it so that by abandoning shields they can go infinitely

You see I would disagree with that statement. Warframe is a very fast paced space ninja type game that demands fast reactions, Id say its way more fitting to brief iframe mechanic that demands you to quickly react accordingly to survive the next hit as opposed to having to hide behind some cover or in a corner of the map in this fast paced shooter. Thats probably what has lead to its huge rise in popularity, it fits the game perfectly and it rewards very active, its why DE isnt going to remove it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

How bout you try the shield gate strat yourself and see just how not cheesy it actually is, I guarantee if people only want to cheese the game they would just use invisibility.

 

You see I would disagree with that statement. Warframe is a very fast paced space ninja type game that demands fast reactions, Id say its way more fitting to brief iframe mechanic that demands you to quickly react accordingly to survive the next hit as opposed to having to hide behind some cover or in a corner of the map in this fast paced shooter. Thats probably what has lead to its huge rise in popularity, it fits the game perfectly and it rewards very active, its why DE isnt going to remove it.

I’m not sure what to tell you. People aren’t exactly looking for the non-cheese options when it comes to the grind.

Also please, as someone who needs to justify their overbuilding for everything, don’t try and convince me that shieldgate abuse gameplay is representative of what an actual fight in this game can look like. It’s just… not.

I don’t know why DE aren’t inclined to remove it. It allows alternative ways to play and approaches to a mission, so that may be a reason, or maybe it’s just too hard to remove. Or maybe they want to make more content accessible through some kind of crutch for players who need it. It’s still a weird mechanic that’s not unfair to label as an exploit, and acting like it’s representative of good gameplay is just as questionable as acting like it should be the baseline for balance

[(NSW)warfare3376]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Also please, as someone who needs to justify their overbuilding for everything, don’t try and convince me that shieldgate abuse gameplay is representative of what an actual fight in this game can look like. It’s just… not.

Likewise bud, need I remind you that you where the one that came in here claiming shield gate "abuse" is somehow a bad way to play the game and even going so far as to insult the players who use it with the whole "tryhard players who desperately want to use it because they have a sort of cognitive dissonance where their capability for play is determined by how cheesy they can get" comment.  

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I don’t know why DE aren’t inclined to remove it. It allows alternative ways to play and approaches to a mission, so that may be a reason, or maybe it’s just too hard to remove. Or maybe they want to make more content accessible through some kind of crutch for players who need it. It’s still a weird mechanic that’s not unfair to label as an exploit, and acting like it’s representative of good gameplay is just as questionable as acting like it should be the baseline for balance

Just cause you dont understand the mechanic does not make it a "weird mechanic that is not unfair to be called an exploit". Like I said how you actually try shield gating yourself to get a better feel for what it actually instead of jumping onto false assumptions, dont have to make it your default way of playing or anything just try it out once just to get a better understanding.

[(NSW)Greybones]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Likewise bud, need I remind you that you where the one that came in here claiming shield gate "abuse" is somehow a bad way to play the game and even going so far as to insult the players who use it with the whole "tryhard players who desperately want to use it because they have a sort of cognitive dissonance where their capability for play is determined by how cheesy they can get" comment.  

Just cause you dont understand the mechanic does not make it a "weird mechanic that is not unfair to be called an exploit". Like I said how you actually try shield gating yourself to get a better feel for what it actually instead of jumping onto false assumptions, dont have to make it your default way of playing or anything just try it out once just to get a better understanding.

It’s a way to play and a way to build. Whether it’s good or not is debatable, but how it works and what it does is a lot less so, which is why I’m not sure why you seem to think abusing the invulnerability period provided by shieldgating is meant to open my eyes to the idea that it’s not some kind of bizarre interaction that could be called an exploit

[nslay]

I actually think shield gating is pretty clever! It's definitely not perfect since you can still die to Toxin. Nasty DoT status effects can also fully wipe your Decaying Dragon Key-affected shields every second the DoT status is active (so you need status immunity or Rapid Resilience or Rolling Guard). I've used it for 1-60 minute SP missions in Star Chart (e.g. Circulus). I use it on my normal Excalibur and I use Radial Blind to instantly recover shields and to take some of the aggro off me... and my status immunity comes from Hideous Resistance. I do something similar with Nekros and Terrify. I don't use shield gating on Khora, but I guess her Whipclaw would make it work nicely there too! Though I don't really feel Khora needs to shield gate to survive reasonable lengths of gameplay (i.e. < 1.5 hours endurance).

It's too bad you can't really use shield gating in SP Circuit outside of a few frames. I view SP Circuit as the more interesting and challenging "end game" content... certainly gives you that 5 hour endurance feel in significantly less time!

With that... I personally don't care what niche ultra long endurance players do to survive in Star Chart... and I equally don't care what players do to survive in 10 minute missions either.

Also, w.r.t. to earlier comments about Rhino being a "jack of all trades" and Revenant a specialized "tank" or whatever, I actually find Revenant to be more of the "jack of all trades" since he can effectively do most mission types by himself. For example, you want to risk using Rhino in SP Circuit Defense? Aside of tanking, Revenant has Enthrall which provides effective-enough CC for Defense. And if you Enthrall a life-steal Eximus, it instantly heals the Defense target... though it can be tricky and RNG to find a life-steal eximus, take its Overguard down without killing it, and then killing one of your existing Thralls fast so you have room to Enthrall the life-steal Eximus... and hope you do it fast enough and aimed correctly when you do Enthrall. So yeah, Revenant can tank infinite damage and also defend stuff better than Rhino.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s a way to play and a way to build. Whether it’s good or not is debatable, but how it works and what it does is a lot less so, which is why I’m not sure why you seem to think abusing the invulnerability period provided by shieldgating is meant to open my eyes to the idea that it’s not some kind of bizarre interaction that could be called an exploit

Well again shield gating does not equal invulnerability, people overvaule that 1.3 second period when in reality its a very brief window only blocking one or 2 hits and its really no different from healing your health bar after you take damage. Something that is better understood after you experience in practice.

[nslay]

25 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s a way to play and a way to build. Whether it’s good or not is debatable, but how it works and what it does is a lot less so, which is why I’m not sure why you seem to think abusing the invulnerability period provided by shieldgating is meant to open my eyes to the idea that it’s not some kind of bizarre interaction that could be called an exploit

I think we'll have to wait for DE to decide if it's an exploit... I'm guessing it's not because they created a frame like Hildryn with this mechanic in mind. I'm sure Hildryn was in the back of their mind when they gave everyone a gimped version of shield gating. And then there's Mag (and I think Harrow?) that can instantly recharge shields back to max to fully benefit from the shield gate. Not certain if they thought about the Decaying Dragon Key, but it just gives other frames the possibility of doing what Mag (or Harrow?) can already do with the considerable sacrifice of ability efficiency and an aura mod slot... and then there's the nasty DoT status effects stripping your shields that you need to deal with too. There's some build investment needed to effectively use it.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

25 minutes ago, nslay said:

Not certain if they thought about the Decaying Dragon Key

I do believe they actually have brought it up during a couple prime times but trying to find clips on that wolud be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Tho I do think it worth mentioning that that decaying key does not work in circuit due to the lack of the gear wheel however in sanctuary onslaught with a similar gear wheel limitation the key does work so I do believe thats some protentional evidence of DE considering it a viable gear item. I would love for DE to formally give their stance on shield gating with or without the key to hopefully put all the misconceptions to rest tho.

[Silligoose]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Well again shield gating does not equal invulnerability, people overvaule that 1.3 second period when in reality its a very brief window only blocking one or 2 hits and its really no different from healing your health bar after you take damage. Something that is better understood after you experience in practice.

I am an endurance player and I do use Shield Gating for different content including level cap runs. Against non-toxin enemies it does equal invulnerability. It is not the same as healing one's health bar, especially not when considering healing options that do not instant heal players fully, since healing one's health bar still leaves one vulnerable to damage. As such, even when the healing options are working at full capacity, it can be overwhelmed by enemy DPS, necessitating the use of healing in conjunction with other survival tactics. With Shield Gating, non-toxin enemy damage output cannot overwhelm the mechanic. This becomes apparent when one fully embraces the mechanic and decides to just stand around, hit the designated ability button for shield gate in under 1.3 seconds and shoot whatever without really having to worry about dying.

I actually like the more reactive gameplay associated with Shield Gating, but the mechanic and potential to spam it is broken overpowered as explained in my previous reply to you. Thing is, with better balancing, that same type of reactive gameplay can be achieved without the Shield Gating mechanic and the imbalances it brings with it. Shield Gating only partially accomplishes what it is intended for (preventing one-shots), whilst being unhealthy for the game overall, as it renders actual healing mechanics moot against the higher enemy levels, leads to glass canons becoming more durable than actual tanks, leads to a higher defensive stat (shields) being worse at its intended function (durability), contributes to power creep in various ways by enabling greater range/strength/duration builds without the sacrifice of durability, leads to the developers not actually being able to kill players without disabling or bypassing the mechanic (poor design) and importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

It is a band-aid for a bullet wound that infects more than it heals.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

4 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Against non-toxin enemies it does equal invulnerability. It is not the same as healing one's health bar, especially not when considering healing options that do not instant heal players fully, since healing one's health bar still leaves one vulnerable to damage

Health bars have significantly more damage reduction as opposed to shields. And if youre comparing between abilities that do not instantly heal, which are very few in numbers btw, its usually healing over time effects like orberon renewal or wisp health mote and the energy cost for those abilities are significantly lower than abilities that fully heal health or shields so that makes sense.

 

9 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I actually like the more reactive gameplay associated with Shield Gating, but the mechanic and potential to spam it is broken overpowered as explained in my previous reply to you. Thing is, with better balancing, that same type of reactive gameplay can be achieved without the Shield Gating mechanic and the imbalances it brings with it. Shield Gating only partially accomplishes what it is intended for (preventing one-shots), whilst being unhealthy for the game overall, as it renders actual healing mechanics moot against the higher enemy levels, leads to glass canons becoming more durable than actual tanks, leads to a higher defensive stat (shields) being worse at its intended function (durability), contributes to power creep in various ways by enabling greater range/strength/duration builds without the sacrifice of durability, leads to the developers not actually being able to kill players without disabling or bypassing the mechanic (poor design) and importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

shield gating does exactly what it was designed for no matter how much it is spammed, enemies are just as spammy as players you know like its the whole reason people use much more spammy playstyles, its a very fast paced game spamming just fits the nature of the game I dont understand this argument. Now you can argue other forms of survivability needs adjustments but shield gating is such a good state as of now, its only useful in a lvl 1k + content and has little to no impact and all he lower lvl content.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Well again shield gating does not equal invulnerability, people overvaule that 1.3 second period when in reality its a very brief window only blocking one or 2 hits and its really no different from healing your health bar after you take damage. Something that is better understood after you experience in practice.

I have been talking about shieldgate abuse, the thing that players actively build for by doing things like equipping a Dragon Key and whatever gives them shields back to recharge the inulnerability period.

I’ve said as much like three times so far; the fundamental function of shieldgating, the thing that prevents one-shots, is fine (if a little on the long side). It’s the abuse of perpetually triggering shieldgate that is the abuse part in “Shieldgate Abuse”, which I’ve been saying and referencing instead of “Shieldgate”

[Silligoose]

40 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Health bars have significantly more damage reduction as opposed to shields. And if youre comparing between abilities that do not instantly heal, which are very few in numbers btw, its usually healing over time effects like orberon renewal or wisp health mote and the energy cost for those abilities are significantly lower than abilities that fully heal health or shields so that makes sense.

I said "instantly heal player fully", not just instantly heal. Big difference. Shield Gating is not the same as healing your health bar due to the invulnerability associated. 

You were wrong in trying to say Shield Gating is the same as healing one's health bar and now you ignored the very reason why it isn't the same.

42 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

shield gating does exactly what it was designed for no matter how much it is spammed, enemies are just as spammy as players you know like its the whole reason people use much more spammy playstyles, its a very fast paced game spamming just fits the nature of the game I dont understand this argument. Now you can argue other forms of survivability needs adjustments but shield gating is such a good state as of now, its only useful in a lvl 1k + content and has little to no impact and all he lower lvl content

Shield Gating does far more than intended due to it being so spammable. That is the problem. It also doesn't even do what it was supposed to do: The idea was to prevent one-shots, particularly on squishier frames. It fails in that regard due to toxin bypassing shields.

The whole reason players use spammy playstyles is because there may be an upside, but almost no downside. That was the case with radial AoE. DE changed the balance so there would be a downside to spamming radial AoE shots in that one could actually run out of ammo (although I'm sure their plans for new AoE Incarnons had a role in the decision as well). That was the case with ability spam in ESO. DE now forces ability cooldowns in ESO so spamming has a downside, although to be frank it isn't a great fix either. Players making use of spammy playstyles has little to do with "enemies are just as spammy as players". It is because they can and it tends to be beneficial without much downside, if any.

Shield Gating also does have an impact at lower levels of play than 1k: using Shield Gating builds allows for players to build more into range/strength/duration builds in comparison to more traditional durability builds that incorporate higher health/armor/shield stats. This in turn helps trivialize content to a greater extent at various levels of play as a result. I'm assuming you have played Shield Gating builds, so you should know this already. I have no idea why you would claim the contrary.

How can you state a mechanic that doesn't even fulfil its primary role, yet brings about various other imbalances, is in a good state? You can't ignore the negative aspects of a mechanic because it fulfils its primary role, or as is the case with shield gating, almost does. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

I think we'll have to wait for DE to decide if it's an exploit... I'm guessing it's not because they created a frame like Hildryn with this mechanic in mind. I'm sure Hildryn was in the back of their mind when they gave everyone a gimped version of shield gating. And then there's Mag (and I think Harrow?) that can instantly recharge shields back to max to fully benefit from the shield gate. Not certain if they thought about the Decaying Dragon Key, but it just gives other frames the possibility of doing what Mag (or Harrow?) can already do with the considerable sacrifice of ability efficiency and an aura mod slot... and then there's the nasty DoT status effects stripping your shields that you need to deal with too. There's some build investment needed to effectively use it.

I’m pretty sure they’ve already remarked on shieldgate abuse and and said that it’s staying in the game (for now) in a tweet or something, and in a devstream Pablo mentioned something about it having to be built for.

They don’t seem too concerned about a fundamental system being utilised as such being part of the game, and it’s not like we’re forced to be invincible all the time or anything, so I’m not terribly bothered either until someone comes along and tries to treat shieldgate spam like it’s a normal thing to do and that the game is or should be balanced around doing it

[(NSW)warfare3376]

9 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I said "instantly heal player fully", not just instantly heal. Big difference. Shield Gating is not the same as healing your health bar due to the invulnerability associated. 

You were wrong in trying to say Shield Gating is the same as healing one's health bar and now you ignored the very reason why it isn't the same.

I dont think you realize just how short 1.3 is, the downside is that you cant run efficiency on your builds because it would prevent you from fully replenishing your shields in 1 cast. If you are spamming that much to face tank every singe instance of damage you will run out of energy so quickly then die shortly after. People always seem to focus so heavily on the invulnerability side that they completely ignore the absolutely insane that comes with it. And for the record most healing abilities do infact fully heal instantly, the ones that dont are mostly heal over time effects, on top of this health has far dr then shields do making healing technically more effective and efficient where as shields dont have really any dr at all and only have the gate which makes it very constient and is what makes it better than health tanking in higher lvls. So yes I will stand by my statement that shield gating is no different then healing your health.

 

9 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Shield Gating does far more than intended due to it being so spammable. That is the problem. It also doesn't even do what it was supposed to do: The idea was to prevent one-shots, particularly on squishier frames. It fails in that regard due to toxin bypassing shields.

It literally is preventing one hits, literally every time you get hit in those higher lvls you will die instantly. And your not fully invulnerable during it either, every time you take a hit you have to use a chunk of energy every time, which again you cant use any efficiency so it usually ends up being 50 or 75 energy per, meaning your energy bar is effectively your health bar and you have to constantly maintain it. Again people focus way too much on the invulnerability widow and ignore everything else that goes into it.

 

9 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The whole reason players use spammy playstyles is because there may be an upside, but almost no downside. That was the case with radial AoE. DE changed the balance so there would be a downside to spamming radial AoE shots in that one could actually run out of ammo (although I'm sure their plans for new AoE Incarnons had a role in the decision as well). That was the case with ability spam in ESO. DE now forces ability cooldowns in ESO so spamming has a downside, although to be frank it isn't a great fix either. Players making use of spammy playstyles has little to do with "enemies are just as spammy as players". It is because they can and it tends to be beneficial without much downside, if any.

Again the downside is extreme energy costs, you play bad and take a lot more damage than you should then your energy cost will too much to handle, this is people dont seem to get if your just gonna stand there and face tank everything by spamming abilities every time your shield breaks you will die so unbelievably fast as there is no amount of energy restoration that can keep up with that. Now you could say "oh but youre not just gonna be standing there in one place the whole time, youre gonna be moving around and be killing or ccing stuff" and yea youd be right thats the point, the shield gate playstyle forces you to play extremely actively and be able to react very quickly to many situations in order to maintain it. Like I said people just ignore everything that goes into shield gating and overvalue that invulnerability window.

 

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Shield Gating also does have an impact at lower levels of play than 1k: using Shield Gating builds allows for players to build more into range/strength/duration builds in comparison to more traditional durability builds that incorporate higher health/armor/shield stats. This in turn helps trivialize content to a greater extent at various levels of play as a result. I'm assuming you have played Shield Gating builds, so you should know this already. I have no idea why you would claim the contrary.

Do you realize how not a threat lower lvl enemies are? Norma starchart/void fissure enemies would be doing enough damage that modding for extra health is necessary you can get by with just the base no shield gating required just by playing well or useing over tuned builds that wipe them around before they can even do anything. Now lvls 100-200 or base sp this gets a little interesting cuz yea you can give up survivability for more strength/range/dura/whatever but then you now become forced to play the hyper active playstyle that shield gating comes with and have to give up the comfortness of just health tanking  in exchange for for a stronger build. So yea again I stand by what I said.

 

10 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I have been talking about shieldgate abuse, the thing that players actively build for by doing things like equipping a Dragon Key and whatever gives them shields back to recharge the inulnerability period.

Again bud by this definition you keep using of "abuse" literally any build that has a primary goal something hunter munitions, spore saryn, speedva, min range limbo, ect.. would all be considered abuse too. And before you say "but decaying key is meant a negative and its unintended to work with shield gating" literally speedva is the concept, the speed buff was unintended at the start but was kept in and made into a feature later.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

13 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I am an endurance player and I do use Shield Gating for different content including level cap runs. Against non-toxin enemies it does equal invulnerability. It is not the same as healing one's health bar, especially not when considering healing options that do not instant heal players fully, since healing one's health bar still leaves one vulnerable to damage. As such, even when the healing options are working at full capacity, it can be overwhelmed by enemy DPS, necessitating the use of healing in conjunction with other survival tactics. With Shield Gating, non-toxin enemy damage output cannot overwhelm the mechanic. This becomes apparent when one fully embraces the mechanic and decides to just stand around, hit the designated ability button for shield gate in under 1.3 seconds and shoot whatever without really having to worry about dying.

I actually like the more reactive gameplay associated with Shield Gating, but the mechanic and potential to spam it is broken overpowered as explained in my previous reply to you. Thing is, with better balancing, that same type of reactive gameplay can be achieved without the Shield Gating mechanic and the imbalances it brings with it. Shield Gating only partially accomplishes what it is intended for (preventing one-shots), whilst being unhealthy for the game overall, as it renders actual healing mechanics moot against the higher enemy levels, leads to glass canons becoming more durable than actual tanks, leads to a higher defensive stat (shields) being worse at its intended function (durability), contributes to power creep in various ways by enabling greater range/strength/duration builds without the sacrifice of durability, leads to the developers not actually being able to kill players without disabling or bypassing the mechanic (poor design) and importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

It is a band-aid for a bullet wound that infects more than it heals.

This is actually extremely well said. While I do use and enjoy shield gating, it isn't some "skilled based" mechanic and is a bandaid for much larger issues. Shield gating=/= skill it's just our only option at a certain point. Anyways, I don't think Rhino is in an unhealthy balance state like revenant. Other frames like Nezha and Kullervo have multiple invulnerability moments but are fine.

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Again bud by this definition you keep using of "abuse" literally any build that has a primary goal something hunter munitions, spore saryn, speedva, min range limbo, ect.. would all be considered abuse too. And before you say "but decaying key is meant a negative and its unintended to work with shield gating" literally speedva is the concept, the speed buff was unintended at the start but was kept in and made into a feature later.

What… would you consider an exploit? If shieldgate abuse doesn’t jump out as such, I’m beginning to wonder if there’s anything that would fit the concept and whether I’ve been talking to a brick wall

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What… would you consider an exploit? If shieldgate abuse doesn’t jump out as such, I’m beginning to wonder if there’s anything that would fit the concept and whether I’ve been talking to a brick wall

Likewise bud. And I already told you the definition of exploit but here it is again, make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource), so anything that fits that definition. You however are twisting that definition into something thats strictly negative to fit some false narrative that all other shield gate haters seem to create.

[nslay]

It will ultimately be up to DE what they "intended".

Some things are obviously exploits... using the (long time patched) Power Donation bug would be an obvious example of an exploit. It would be an exploit because Power Donation was obviously not supposed to continue to decrease your ability strength every time you hopped in and out of Archwing. That is a bug. And then using something like Nidus to multiply two negative power strengths from two players using the Power Donation bug gives a very large positive ability strength. This is an obvious exploit because it involves players using an obvious bug to pull it off.

On the other hand, Shield Gating is not obviously an exploit. Players are not using bugs to use the mechanic to their advantage. They are legitimately using abilities, effects, mods and/or a dragon key to instantly restore shields to maximally benefit from the mechanic. I think that's a BIG difference.

So, again, ultimately it will be up to DE to decide what was intended. You can argue and debate about this all you want, but there is no question that players are using Warframe tools in a legitimate way to benefit most from the shield gating mechanic... they are not "exploiting" bugs to pull this off. At worst, they are using shield gating in a way DE failed to imagine (and I do wager that they did not think about the Decaying Dragon Key!).

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Likewise bud. And I already told you the definition of exploit but here it is again, make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource), so anything that fits that definition. You however are twisting that definition into something thats strictly negative to fit some false narrative that all other shield gate haters seem to create.

 

22 minutes ago, nslay said:

It will ultimately be up to DE what they "intended".

Some things are obviously exploits... using the (long time patched) Power Donation bug would be an obvious example of an exploit. It would be an exploit because Power Donation was obviously not supposed to continue to decrease your ability strength every time you hopped in and out of Archwing. That is a bug. And then using something like Nidus to multiply two negative power strengths from two players using the Power Donation bug gives a very large positive ability strength. This is an obvious exploit because it involves players using an obvious bug to pull it off.

On the other hand, Shield Gating is not obviously an exploit. Players are not using bugs to use the mechanic to their advantage. They are legitimately using abilities, effects, mods and/or a dragon key to instantly restore shields to maximally benefit from the mechanic. I think that's a BIG difference.

So, again, ultimately it will be up to DE to decide what was intended. You can argue and debate about this all you want, but there is no question that players are using Warframe tools in a legitimate way to benefit most from the shield gating mechanic... they are not "exploiting" bugs to pull this off. At worst, they are using shield gating in a way DE failed to imagine (and I do wager that they did not think about the Decaying Dragon Key!).

A negative exploit doesn’t have to be a bug, it can use systems already present in the game to facilitate some sort of unintended behaviour that a game developer would look at and think “Whoah, that’s not the idea”. It’s the sort of thing that is negative because it runs counter to the designed limits that a developer has established or wants and is where the Negative aspect comes from, and is why when a developer lets it slide instead of stopping the player from abusing the interaction, bug or otherwise, because of reasons, it’s not standard behaviour nor should it be expected to be as such.

The things DE let the player get away with if not straight up worked into their idea of the game is kind of nuts and I think it’s cool, but never bank on these interactions remaining in the game and if they do remain, DE has either given up or done the player a favour

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

A negative exploit doesn’t have to be a bug, it can use systems already present in the game to facilitate some sort of unintended behaviour that a game developer would look at and think “Whoah, that’s not the idea”. It’s the sort of thing that is negative because it runs counter to the designed limits that a developer has established or wants and is where the Negative aspect comes from, and is why when a developer lets it slide instead of stopping the player from abusing the interaction, bug or otherwise, because of reasons, it’s not standard behaviour nor should it be expected to be as such.

Listen bud, what does the decaying dragon key do? It lowers your maximum shields by 75%. What does the shield gate mechanic do? It prevents any extra damage dealt to your health while you have shields up and gives a 1.3 sec invulnerability window if your shields were at full and a .3 sec window when shields are not at full. Everything is working exactly the way it was designed too, there is "negative exploit" you are referring to, what that is called is a synergy. And again, speedva exists, minimum range limbo exists, negative puncture/impact rivs exist, negative duration baruuk exists, and funny thing about speedva is that was actually an unintended interaction yet it stayed in because people liked. Also bullet jumping guess where that idea came from, it came a movement exploit called coptering, bullet jumping is literally a feature that was added because of an exploit so kindly cut it with this excuse.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Listen bud, what does the decaying dragon key do? It lowers your maximum shields by 75%. What does the shield gate mechanic do? It prevents any extra damage dealt to your health while you have shields up and gives a 1.3 sec invulnerability window if your shields were at full and a .3 sec window when shields are not at full. Everything is working exactly the way it was designed too, there is "negative exploit" you are referring to, what that is called is a synergy. And again, speedva exists, minimum range limbo exists, negative puncture/impact rivs exist, negative duration baruuk exists, and funny thing about speedva is that was actually an unintended interaction yet it stayed in because people liked. Also bullet jumping guess where that idea came from, it came a movement exploit called coptering, bullet jumping is literally a feature that was added because of an exploit so kindly cut it with this excuse.

You may want to reconsider what you’re saying in light of the edit I made before you posted this. Although I’m not sure if you just excised the edit