Echoes of Duviri: Hotfix 33.6.1

[Xsoskeleton]

13 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Missed Notes:

• With the new Ability Damage qualifier with the Enhanced Damage Numbers system, some players may think that certain Warframe abilities have had their Critical Chance nerfed. In truth, some Warframe abilities had a Critical Chance multiplier simply to add “oomph” to their damage numbers, without having an actual impact on Damage output. With this new Enhanced Damage System, that extra oomph is no longer needed, so those non-functional Critical Change values were removed, but the overall damage of these abilities are unchanged.

wait this make no sense, some abilities that shows critical simply ABLE to deal crit with given buffs, you realize there's tons of additive crit chance buffs andeven with base 1.0x  crit damage, additional cdmg percent still works right?

and why does it need to be added as missed note? is it simply announcing that abilities will never crit anymore?

[CoffeeElemental]

After this hotfix, I had a weird thing happening in Zariman exterminate mission:
right at the mission start, a dialogue window appeared saying that "hud not initialized" with only one button - "accept"(or something similar). After that window, the game proceeded as usual with one exception - enemy counter was missing (but the mission was still possible to complete). It happened twice, but not in a row, and only in Zariman. Playing solo.

Did anyone else have this?

[---Matiz753---]

please add  the same shield  1:1 like shield man have  for x day log in (1500 for example)  with same shield push

[master_of_destiny]

6 hours ago, ConfidentFart said:

4-6 additional runs? For what? Doing a regular run awarded 10 clamps, but cost 5 clamps, so after each run you had a net gain of 5 clamps. A steel path run awarded 15 clamps, minus 5 was a net gain of 10. Did you think kullervo's hold option cost 5 clamps but rewarded 0? Or are you confusing pathos clamps and kullervo's bane, the resource used to buy kullervo parts and bp?

Let me simplify this with equations:

 

Regular:

(10 or 15)*x = rewards

Kullervo:

(5 or 10)*x = rewards

 

Difference:

5/run.  At 10 rewarded at a minimum, each run for the Kullervo hold therefore represents 33-50% losses in rewards.

Now, logic this out.  If you're so impatient that you cannot wait to spend resources then you'll do the much faster solo farm...which is 10 pathos clamps a run.  That means 42/5 (average rewards), or 9 runs.  You need 9/2 = 5 more runs to have the same amount of pathos clamps that would have been rewarded.  The math is pretty easy.

 

 

Let me also proffer a stupid answer as a strawman.  In Plague Star you had to do some runs, and buy the two BPs to get the toxin and other bit.  That means I'm being hypocritical in not expecting the same from the hold, right?  Well, no.  You could, theoretically, never get the extra bits.  They were meant to increase difficulty, and rewards.  They therefore were an increase in inputs to increase outputs...whereas the Kullervo's Bane is a 100% RNG which offers fixed ranges based off of difficulty...which were not correlated with relative time investment (an extra 20% reward on average is not balanced by a 200% increase in time invested).  So no, Plague Star got this right.  They required a bit of investment, and paid it out in rewards.  Kullervo's hold is an investment with no payout...and DE doesn't care because "the reward is to not be time bound" in a game that expects a lot of our time invested.  Kinda backwards....given the Archon hunts, Incarnon weeklies, Nightwave, Sorties, syndicate standings, build timers, and so many other things are time gated.

[ConfidentFart]

29 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me simplify this with equations:

 

Regular:

(10 or 15)*x = rewards

Kullervo:

(5 or 10)*x = rewards

 

Difference:

5/run.  At 10 rewarded at a minimum, each run for the Kullervo hold therefore represents 33-50% losses in rewards.

Now, logic this out.  If you're so impatient that you cannot wait to spend resources then you'll do the much faster solo farm...which is 10 pathos clamps a run.  That means 42/5 (average rewards), or 9 runs.  You need 9/2 = 5 more runs to have the same amount of pathos clamps that would have been rewarded.  The math is pretty easy.

I'll try to simplify as well. You do Kullervo's hold to get Kullervo. Getting Kullervo requires 42 Kullervo's Bane, not pathos clamps. Kullervo only requires 10 pathos clamps, obtained after 1-2 runs (depending on regular or steel path) while farming kullervo through kullervo's hold.

So there's no increase in time or number of runs required to get kullervo.

In your earlier post you started off with

12 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me echo this as a stupidity tax.  You're welcome to call it a way to pay one resource for more instant gratification...but that's not how DE structured this.  Allow me to elaborate.

So what you say next is meant to justify why you echo it as a STUPIDITY tax.

12 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

How many runs were required to get Kullervo?  Can't answer, well that's because it's a statistical distribution.  42/4 = 11.  42/5 = 9.  42/6 = 7.  It takes between 7 and 11 runs in order to earn the frame...assuming you use it and feed it to the helminth.  This means the pathos clamp cost is also 5*?...or 35 to 55 clamps.  Sweet buttery bagels, that's an absolute pain.  That's 4-6 additional runs at minimum you have to do to make up for impatience.

Now there's where my question comes in. You say 4-6 additional runs at minimum to make up for impatience. Make up, as in to earn the amount of pathos clamps you have paid. But this is entirely irrelevant to obtaining kullervo. You do not run kullervo's hold to farm pathos clamps, you do it to farm kullervo's bane.

Someone running kullervo's hold is trading some of the pathos clamps they would otherwise receive, to run the kullervo fight and farm kullervo's bane during a 2 (or more) hour period where the fight would otherwise be unavailable. So if you're a person who either doesn't play this game all day or doesn't adjust their schedule to this game, this is the option you have to get kullervo without waiting for in-game and IRL rng to align.

"You're welcome to call it a way to pay one resource for more instant gratification...but that's not how DE structured this.  Allow me to elaborate."

Rephrased: "DE did not structure this as a way to pay one resource for more instant gratification, allow me to elaborate."

But that is exactly what it is. You're welcome to call it an "impatience" tax, but what does STUPIDITY have to do with it? You seemed to be in such a hurry to back up a snarky insult that you "logic this out" with incorrect logic.

You used more words to essentially say: If you pay 5 pathos clamps, you will have 5 fewer pathos clamps than you would have if you didn't pay 5 pathos clamps.

That is profound and thought provoking to be sure, but have you considered that people running kullervo's hold are not focused on farming pathos clamps and don't need 5 more per run, which is why they are willing to pay the price in the first place?

Incidental to this, let me add to your math equations: 4-6 banes are earned in regular, and 6-8 are earned in steel path. So you'd get 42/6=7 runs, 42/7=6 runs and 42/8=6 runs. In SP this would be a cost of 30-35 clamps. If you're farming pathos clamps after you're done farming kullervo (to make up for the clamps you otherwise would have), you wouldn't continue running kullervo's hold, you would run the regular duviri. If you do this in SP, you get 15 clamps per run. So you'd only need 2 runs to make up the difference (Yes, technically 2-3, to get those 5 more pathos clamps you lost with such poor luck). This is only if you absolutely need those additional/missing pathos clamps, though you "need" 830 clamps to "acquire all current Drifter Melee weapons, Incarnon Genesis upgrades, Kullervo, and Rauta", not to mention all of the stuff Acrithis sells in exchange for clamps. In a farm for 830+ clamps, how big a number is 30? Or even 55?

But what matters most is that my first post wasn't about the fact that a person might run kullervo's hold for reasons other than stupidity. It was that if you have a problem with something DE is doing, insulting fellow players who would otherwise agree with you weakens the fight for your cause and by extension the chances of change occurring. Sure, it was quite a hyperbole to say they would be alone with their attitude, those likes on the post and your "echoing" are evidence of that, but it is also a fact that I agree with that person regarding the issue of time gates on content being an issue, and that "solutions" to time gates are indeed "solutions" to problems DE is responsible for in the first place. But rather than give that person a like and comment with "Yeah, I agree with this DE, stop doing this stuff to us.", I called them an A******. And to their credit, they didn't disagree with this evaluation, merely rephrasing it to "not diplomatic".

Does the support of me and people like me matter or make a difference? It's hard to say. Maybe while you're criticizing a choice made by DE, calling players you disagree with "stupid" is kind of like a pathos clamp tax.

[Aurani]

I'm not sure what you guys changed, but after this patch I no longer have a 2s lagspike upon killing Eximus enemies, thanks anyways!

[master_of_destiny]

4 hours ago, ConfidentFart said:

I'll try to simplify as well. You do Kullervo's hold to get Kullervo. Getting Kullervo requires 42 Kullervo's Bane, not pathos clamps. Kullervo only requires 10 pathos clamps, obtained after 1-2 runs (depending on regular or steel path) while farming kullervo through kullervo's hold.

So there's no increase in time or number of runs required to get kullervo.

In your earlier post you started off with

So what you say next is meant to justify why you echo it as a STUPIDITY tax.

Now there's where my question comes in. You say 4-6 additional runs at minimum to make up for impatience. Make up, as in to earn the amount of pathos clamps you have paid. But this is entirely irrelevant to obtaining kullervo. You do not run kullervo's hold to farm pathos clamps, you do it to farm kullervo's bane.

Someone running kullervo's hold is trading some of the pathos clamps they would otherwise receive, to run the kullervo fight and farm kullervo's bane during a 2 (or more) hour period where the fight would otherwise be unavailable. So if you're a person who either doesn't play this game all day or doesn't adjust their schedule to this game, this is the option you have to get kullervo without waiting for in-game and IRL rng to align.

"You're welcome to call it a way to pay one resource for more instant gratification...but that's not how DE structured this.  Allow me to elaborate."

Rephrased: "DE did not structure this as a way to pay one resource for more instant gratification, allow me to elaborate."

But that is exactly what it is. You're welcome to call it an "impatience" tax, but what does STUPIDITY have to do with it? You seemed to be in such a hurry to back up a snarky insult that you "logic this out" with incorrect logic.

You used more words to essentially say: If you pay 5 pathos clamps, you will have 5 fewer pathos clamps than you would have if you didn't pay 5 pathos clamps.

That is profound and thought provoking to be sure, but have you considered that people running kullervo's hold are not focused on farming pathos clamps and don't need 5 more per run, which is why they are willing to pay the price in the first place?

Incidental to this, let me add to your math equations: 4-6 banes are earned in regular, and 6-8 are earned in steel path. So you'd get 42/6=7 runs, 42/7=6 runs and 42/8=6 runs. In SP this would be a cost of 30-35 clamps. If you're farming pathos clamps after you're done farming kullervo (to make up for the clamps you otherwise would have), you wouldn't continue running kullervo's hold, you would run the regular duviri. If you do this in SP, you get 15 clamps per run. So you'd only need 2 runs to make up the difference (Yes, technically 2-3, to get those 5 more pathos clamps you lost with such poor luck). This is only if you absolutely need those additional/missing pathos clamps, though you "need" 830 clamps to "acquire all current Drifter Melee weapons, Incarnon Genesis upgrades, Kullervo, and Rauta", not to mention all of the stuff Acrithis sells in exchange for clamps. In a farm for 830+ clamps, how big a number is 30? Or even 55?

But what matters most is that my first post wasn't about the fact that a person might run kullervo's hold for reasons other than stupidity. It was that if you have a problem with something DE is doing, insulting fellow players who would otherwise agree with you weakens the fight for your cause and by extension the chances of change occurring. Sure, it was quite a hyperbole to say they would be alone with their attitude, those likes on the post and your "echoing" are evidence of that, but it is also a fact that I agree with that person regarding the issue of time gates on content being an issue, and that "solutions" to time gates are indeed "solutions" to problems DE is responsible for in the first place. But rather than give that person a like and comment with "Yeah, I agree with this DE, stop doing this stuff to us.", I called them an A******. And to their credit, they didn't disagree with this evaluation, merely rephrasing it to "not diplomatic".

Does the support of me and people like me matter or make a difference? It's hard to say. Maybe while you're criticizing a choice made by DE, calling players you disagree with "stupid" is kind of like a pathos clamp tax.

 

Let me short all of this with a simple question.  How many pathos clamps are required, versus how many bane units are required?

 

Let me do that math.  1 frame.  1 frame to sacrifice to helminth.  1 shotgun.  (9*3+15)*2 + (6*3+12) = 42*2 + 40 = 122.  122/5 (again, average) = 25.  25*5 = 125.  125/10 = 13 runs at 10 pathos clamps each.  Top get the required bane you lose 125 pathos clamps.

 

Now, those clamps.  There's the weapons (50*3+60*2).  There's the incarnon weapons (20*35).  There's Kullervo.  There's probably something I'm missing...but that's enough for now.  150 + 120 + 700 + 10 = 980 pathos clamps.  980/10 = 98 runs.  Sweet buttery Jesus Crisco.  You're adding on 13 runs to 98 required at base (assuming 10 clamp runs).  That's a 13% increase in the quantity of runs...because you have to have it now instead of waiting for the next cycle.

Now, let me summarize.  Taking a 13% increase in grind time, to something that already requires a 98 run count in order to complete, is stupid.  It's literally saving time today for a huge investment tomorrow...and that's stupid.  DE introduced an event with a stupid tax...because anyone with the self discipline to do that math saw that instead of a reward this was a poisoned apple offered to sate those that wanted the new stuff but had no ability to delay gratification.

 

 

 

Let me counter this.  If you have to spend a reward that you require a metric butt load of, and earn at a finite rate, to get something that literally is only slightly time bound, you are an idiot...who values immediate gratification and will make decisions which force you to grind more.  That's not an opinion, or a judgement.  It's observation that you have the self discipline of a drug addict, who prioritizes gratification above thinking through the costs of a trade.  It's taxing people too stupid to see this math as pitting instant desires against a painful increase in grind...and DE doesn't think we can see it.

Here's the best part.  I assume that after 98 runs you won't need arcanes.  At about 2 rares per week, and requiring 7*3 weeks of grind, you should earn 42...but now there are 3 rares requiring 21 each it's worse.  That's assuming you never spend a clamp on the rewards offered daily...otherwise add on another few hundred clamps required to buy those arcanes.  Wow...it's like trading in real money for fun bucks...at a rate of 2 real units to 1 fun buck unit...but seeing prices in fun bucks actually match the real money prices.  After I've stated all of this hopefully you get it.  Pathos Clamps are real money, the hold event was the fun bucks...and I can attest that despite having a Kullervo and a sacrifice I never engaged with the hold event because this was an insult from DE instead of an event.  You're welcome to defend it...but I'd ask you not pretend this is anything but buying convenience with more grind later...which DE is OK with because 13 additional runs of Duviri are a joke compared to waiting a few hours and delaying purchase of the new frame for a couple of days.

 

 

So we are clear about the rest of the year, it's August.  Dog Days will likely happen as a run-up and through Tennocon.  They'll lay out promises for delivery in 2024 at earliest, and discuss the "big release" at the end of 2023 which will likely be a minor expansion.  September is a cooling off period...so nothing there.  October is going to be the Deimos event.  November will be quiet, as they run up to pushing something out the door for December to be a one week month and maintenance leading up to the holiday season.  If we're lucky we'll see a September Plague Star...but if they ran that in the same year as the hold it'd put into stark relief how badly this "event" fell short of what 2015 DE was capable of.  I say all of this because when people defend bad crap like this DE thinks it's acceptable, they hemorrhage players, and the game sucks a little more because instead of listening to feedback they cite whales and pretend that everything is fine...because common people who are angry just leave.  I want to make it clear that what you are doing, pretending DE's decisions aren't damaging, is not just you expressing an opinion.  It's you authorizing them to do crappier things because we aren't going to stand against it.  For that, I suggest we will never be on the same page, and I implore you to reconsider your assertion that nothing is wrong.

 

That said, I already know that your defense means you won't listen.  To that, I can only suggest that everyone is stupid.  The question is whether you are smart enough to admit it and change.  For my money, I'm stupid enough to keep playing this game.  I'm stupid enough to think DE will listen.  I'm stupid enough to spend my time trying to outline a complex idea...and even more stupid to believe most people will read as the average attention span of people seems to be measured in seconds instead of minutes.  Sigh...  I'm stupid enough to care, and stupid enough to believe that caring will fix the issues.  To that end, I'm done.  Have the last words on why my Pathos clamp math is wrong, or perhaps why it's not a requirement to get everything.  This is a live services game built upon content...but people still bandy about the false narrative that you don't "have" to do everything....which shows they're stupid enough to not understand it is what is being consumed...  Yeah, it's not nihilism, it's admitting to stupid that alleviates us of its burdens.

[BrendanatorX]

Garuda's Talons are still counted as an ability instead of a melee weapon since U33.5 which was never mentioned in the patch notes and nobody is saying anything about it.

 

[ConfidentFart]

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Have the last words on why my Pathos clamp math is wrong

Good place to start.

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Let me short all of this with a simple question.  How many pathos clamps are required, versus how many bane units are required?

 

Let me do that math.  1 frame.  1 frame to sacrifice to helminth.  1 shotgun.  (9*3+15)*2 + (6*3+12) = 42*2 + 40 = 122.  122/5 (again, average) = 25.  25*5 = 125.  125/10 = 13 runs at 10 pathos clamps each.  Top get the required bane you lose 125 pathos clamps.

6*3+12 is 30, not 40. Also, with your incorrect numbers of 42*2 + 40, it wouldn't be 122, it would be 124, as 42*2 is 84.

So actually in your example it would be 112, or 70 if you don't care about a 2nd kullervo to throw into the helminth.

Why are you lecturing me with math when you're not even proficient with basic multiplication and addition?

For your use of 5 as the average bane rewarded, you are again ignoring increased bane reward in steel path. Average there would be 7.

So 112/7 = 16, or 70/7 = 10. 10-16 runs on average. Cost of 10*5 to 16*5, or 50-80 clamps spent on average.

Then you divide by 10, to mean 10 clamps earned per run of regular duviri to make back the lost clamps. But steel path rewards 15 clamps per run.

So 50/15 = 4 (really 3 and 1/3, because 4 runs would get you 60 clamps, 10 more than the 50 you "lost") and 80/15 = 6 (5 and 1/3, because 6 runs gets you 90, so 10 more)

4-6 runs to get back what you lost.

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now, those clamps.  There's the weapons (50*3+60*2).  There's the incarnon weapons (20*35).  There's Kullervo.  There's probably something I'm missing...but that's enough for now.  150 + 120 + 700 + 10 = 980 pathos clamps.  980/10 = 98 runs.  Sweet buttery Jesus Crisco.  You're adding on 13 runs to 98 required at base (assuming 10 clamp runs).  That's a 13% increase in the quantity of runs...because you have to have it now instead of waiting for the next cycle.

Yeah you left out the Rauta, so it'll be a total of 990. That is to get every duviri melee, every incarnon adapter. Are you insane? Why would you NEED every single one of those?

But setting that aside for now, it's 15 clamps per steel path run. If you're insane enough to farm 990 pathos clamps, you absolutely better be doing it with steel path runs.

990/15 = 66 runs. So adding 4-6 runs to 66 runs. That's a 6%-9% increase.

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now, let me summarize.  Taking a 13% increase in grind time, to something that already requires a 98 run count in order to complete, is stupid.  It's literally saving time today for a huge investment tomorrow...and that's stupid.  DE introduced an event with a stupid tax...because anyone with the self discipline to do that math saw that instead of a reward this was a poisoned apple offered to sate those that wanted the new stuff but had no ability to delay gratification.

Did you read the post you're replying to? Because everything you say presupposes that a person needs all of those pathos clamps. Your logic and math argument presupposes that a person needs 990 pathos clamps and so having some clamps taken through kullervo's hold is a detriment to that necessity. I can assure you, nobody who values their time feels a need to get to 990 pathos clamps.

And in your incorrect example of 13%, how is 13% a "huge investment tomorrow"? Do you know what "huge" means? However you'll be happy to know now that actually it's a huge 6%-9%.

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me counter this.  If you have to spend a reward that you require a metric butt load of, and earn at a finite rate, to get something that literally is only slightly time bound, you are an idiot...who values immediate gratification and will make decisions which force you to grind more.  That's not an opinion, or a judgement.  It's observation that you have the self discipline of a drug addict, who prioritizes gratification above thinking through the costs of a trade.  It's taxing people too stupid to see this math as pitting instant desires against a painful increase in grind...and DE doesn't think we can see it.

You're calling other people drug addicts while seemingly possessing the belief that a player needs every single duviri melee and every single incarnon adapter, is that right?

"Will make decisions which force you to grind more". What if a person plays during times when Kullervo isn't available, and they want banes, but they don't care about clamps? You're still getting clamps through doing the event, so what if those clamps are all that you need? There's no hidden fee here, it's all up front and clear. You do know that the kullervo's hold event was opened on June 21st, whereas Duviri came out on April 26th, right? That's almost 2 months of time during which we could grind for pathos clamps if we needed to, 2 months of incarnon adapters coming out and forcing us to get clamps if we wanted to use them, 2 months of (almost all) those melees being available for pathos clamps to incentivize farming them. What if when kullervo's hold was available, a player had already earned plenty of pathos clamps and didn't need many more, or any at all? Then it is a transaction where the player receives something that has value to them, in exchange for something that does not.

Don't call other people drug addicts if you can't imagine that a person might not care about getting as many pathos clamps as possible per run.

Also 2 hours for one wrong cycle to pass, or 4 if the next cycle is also wrong, is not "slightly time bound". And those hours can turn to days if you only have a chance to play the game during those hours on a particular day.

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Here's the best part.  I assume that after 98 runs you won't need arcanes.  At about 2 rares per week, and requiring 7*3 weeks of grind, you should earn 42...but now there are 3 rares requiring 21 each it's worse.  That's assuming you never spend a clamp on the rewards offered daily...otherwise add on another few hundred clamps required to buy those arcanes.  Wow...it's like trading in real money for fun bucks...at a rate of 2 real units to 1 fun buck unit...but seeing prices in fun bucks actually match the real money prices.  After I've stated all of this hopefully you get it.  Pathos Clamps are real money, the hold event was the fun bucks...and I can attest that despite having a Kullervo and a sacrifice I never engaged with the hold event because this was an insult from DE instead of an event.  You're welcome to defend it...but I'd ask you not pretend this is anything but buying convenience with more grind later...which DE is OK with because 13 additional runs of Duviri are a joke compared to waiting a few hours and delaying purchase of the new frame for a couple of days.

Why would a person who is not an idiot or drug addict do this? Now you're grinding pathos clamps for arcanes and random shop items?

And you're weakening your own point, because now you're increasing the total "need" for clamps from 990 to more for arcanes and other shop items. The higher you increase that number, the smaller a percentage of it the number you "lost" becomes, because that number is static. To repeat: the more you grind for pathos clamps beyond the 990, the less significant the kullervo's hold cost becomes. You are arguing against your own argument.

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

I say all of this because when people defend bad crap like this DE thinks it's acceptable, they hemorrhage players, and the game sucks a little more because instead of listening to feedback they cite whales and pretend that everything is fine...because common people who are angry just leave.  I want to make it clear that what you are doing, pretending DE's decisions aren't damaging, is not just you expressing an opinion.  It's you authorizing them to do crappier things because we aren't going to stand against it.  For that, I suggest we will never be on the same page, and I implore you to reconsider your assertion that nothing is wrong.

In both of my posts that you replied to I state that I agree that DE makes bad choices and this game has its fair share of issues. The point in them, which I actually stated clearly in my most recent post that you are replying to, is that we should stand against bad decisions together, and calling other players stupid who would otherwise agree with you isn't standing together. Why would someone want to stand with you if you call them stupid, idiot, and drug addict?

 

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

That said, I already know that your defense means you won't listen.  To that, I can only suggest that everyone is stupid.  The question is whether you are smart enough to admit it and change.  For my money, I'm stupid enough to keep playing this game.  I'm stupid enough to think DE will listen.  I'm stupid enough to spend my time trying to outline a complex idea...and even more stupid to believe most people will read as the average attention span of people seems to be measured in seconds instead of minutes.  Sigh...  I'm stupid enough to care, and stupid enough to believe that caring will fix the issues.  To that end, I'm done.  Have the last words on why my Pathos clamp math is wrong, or perhaps why it's not a requirement to get everything.  This is a live services game built upon content...but people still bandy about the false narrative that you don't "have" to do everything....which shows they're stupid enough to not understand it is what is being consumed...  Yeah, it's not nihilism, it's admitting to stupid that alleviates us of its burdens.

False narrative? It is a false narrative that I don't care about 3/5 of the incarnon adapters, all duviri melees, and the arcanes?

I think I'll edit this paragraph down by removing all of the unnecessary words:

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

I'm stupid I'm stupid I'm stupid and even more stupid I'm stupid and stupid enough

Finally, something in your post I can agree with!

[master_of_destiny]

On 2023-08-02 at 4:56 AM, ConfidentFart said:

Good place to start.

6*3+12 is 30, not 40. Also, with your incorrect numbers of 42*2 + 40, it wouldn't be 122, it would be 124, as 42*2 is 84.

So actually in your example it would be 112, or 70 if you don't care about a 2nd kullervo to throw into the helminth.

Why are you lecturing me with math when you're not even proficient with basic multiplication and addition?

For your use of 5 as the average bane rewarded, you are again ignoring increased bane reward in steel path. Average there would be 7.

So 112/7 = 16, or 70/7 = 10. 10-16 runs on average. Cost of 10*5 to 16*5, or 50-80 clamps spent on average.

Then you divide by 10, to mean 10 clamps earned per run of regular duviri to make back the lost clamps. But steel path rewards 15 clamps per run.

So 50/15 = 4 (really 3 and 1/3, because 4 runs would get you 60 clamps, 10 more than the 50 you "lost") and 80/15 = 6 (5 and 1/3, because 6 runs gets you 90, so 10 more)

4-6 runs to get back what you lost.

Yeah you left out the Rauta, so it'll be a total of 990. That is to get every duviri melee, every incarnon adapter. Are you insane? Why would you NEED every single one of those?

But setting that aside for now, it's 15 clamps per steel path run. If you're insane enough to farm 990 pathos clamps, you absolutely better be doing it with steel path runs.

990/15 = 66 runs. So adding 4-6 runs to 66 runs. That's a 6%-9% increase.

Did you read the post you're replying to? Because everything you say presupposes that a person needs all of those pathos clamps. Your logic and math argument presupposes that a person needs 990 pathos clamps and so having some clamps taken through kullervo's hold is a detriment to that necessity. I can assure you, nobody who values their time feels a need to get to 990 pathos clamps.

And in your incorrect example of 13%, how is 13% a "huge investment tomorrow"? Do you know what "huge" means? However you'll be happy to know now that actually it's a huge 6%-9%.

You're calling other people drug addicts while seemingly possessing the belief that a player needs every single duviri melee and every single incarnon adapter, is that right?

"Will make decisions which force you to grind more". What if a person plays during times when Kullervo isn't available, and they want banes, but they don't care about clamps? You're still getting clamps through doing the event, so what if those clamps are all that you need? There's no hidden fee here, it's all up front and clear. You do know that the kullervo's hold event was opened on June 21st, whereas Duviri came out on April 26th, right? That's almost 2 months of time during which we could grind for pathos clamps if we needed to, 2 months of incarnon adapters coming out and forcing us to get clamps if we wanted to use them, 2 months of (almost all) those melees being available for pathos clamps to incentivize farming them. What if when kullervo's hold was available, a player had already earned plenty of pathos clamps and didn't need many more, or any at all? Then it is a transaction where the player receives something that has value to them, in exchange for something that does not.

Don't call other people drug addicts if you can't imagine that a person might not care about getting as many pathos clamps as possible per run.

Also 2 hours for one wrong cycle to pass, or 4 if the next cycle is also wrong, is not "slightly time bound". And those hours can turn to days if you only have a chance to play the game during those hours on a particular day.

Why would a person who is not an idiot or drug addict do this? Now you're grinding pathos clamps for arcanes and random shop items?

And you're weakening your own point, because now you're increasing the total "need" for clamps from 990 to more for arcanes and other shop items. The higher you increase that number, the smaller a percentage of it the number you "lost" becomes, because that number is static. To repeat: the more you grind for pathos clamps beyond the 990, the less significant the kullervo's hold cost becomes. You are arguing against your own argument.

In both of my posts that you replied to I state that I agree that DE makes bad choices and this game has its fair share of issues. The point in them, which I actually stated clearly in my most recent post that you are replying to, is that we should stand against bad decisions together, and calling other players stupid who would otherwise agree with you isn't standing together. Why would someone want to stand with you if you call them stupid, idiot, and drug addict?

 

False narrative? It is a false narrative that I don't care about 3/5 of the incarnon adapters, all duviri melees, and the arcanes?

I think I'll edit this paragraph down by removing all of the unnecessary words:

Finally, something in your post I can agree with!

 

You are...frustratingly incapable of thought, beyond your constructed walls.

 

Let me answer all of your inaccuracies, and acknowledge one math error.

1) Yes, 6*3+12 = 30.  That means 12 runs instead of 13 added.  Joy.

2) You...are incapable of thought.  Yes, 980/15 is less than 980/5.  You seem to then forget that I can do a solo duviri run in about 25 minutes.  That's just 6 missions and a boss fight.  If you can do the steel path in 25*1.5 or 37 and a half minutes then it's more efficient.  My average for Steel Path solo is about 8-12 missions...which is 45-60 minutes on average once you add the extra phases to the boss battle.  That's anecdote...but you seem to not want to understand that reward rate is not reward quantity...and I can only assume it's projection.

3) You are acting stupid.  Full stop.  The discussion was that DE introduced an event with a stupid tax.  You want to conflate that with calling people stupid, then you are being stupid.  The point with the diatribe...because you seem to be incapable of thinking things through without injecting your opinion, is every honest person is stupid at points.  The best of us acknowledge the stupid...whereas the worst of us are too dense to acknowledge it.  You are demonstrating the worst of stupidity by dragging this out, and pretending I called you or anyone personally stupid.  Until now.  Now I've called your actions stupid.  Again, full stop.  If you are incapable of separating stupid person from stupid actions, then please go away.  You are not capable of a discussion.

 

4) You seem to be arguing now that Kullervo's bane is something I don't have to do...  Did you miss the point where I stated content is the point of this game...and that pathos clamps are an order of magnitude larger on their requirements?  Let me state that again.  980+whatever you spent on stuff is literally an order of magnitude more than the 84+30 = 114 bane required.  You should not speak if you cannot conceive that 980+>>114.

5) You (specifically) caring about stuff is stupid, and irrelevant.  The point is clearly stated that this game is founded on content...because no freaking duh.  It's a live services game where if you removed the repetition it'd literally be less than 8 game modes, founded on rock-paper-scissors balance, where the bugs are a feature.  I'm glad you don't want to play the game and get the content...but that doesn't become relevant until we talk about your choices...which I don't care about.  Nobody but you cares about.  You'll note this is a false narrative attack, because the facts are being ignored for your feelings.  I don't care about them, because they do not represent reality.  You also do not know my feelings...because none of what I've shared are feelings.  They're fact based mathematical models.

6) Wrapping all this up, let me suggest you grow a spine and develop critical thinking.  Both of these seem an insult, but you've demonstrated you need them.  The spine is required to make a point, and stand with it (or be willing to reconsider).  Your initial statement was that this was not a stupidity tax...and your new point is that I don't have to engage with content so it's not a stupidity tax for me...that shows a lack of conviction.  Either it's a stupidity tax or not...and you don't get to change the goal posts midway through to "I'm happy to pay because I wasn't even going to use the resources anyways."  The critical thinking is pretty clear.  You argue a 10 point miscalculation...in a 1000+ point discussion.  Your argument is literally 1% of the thing...which should clue you in to the conclusion that maybe it's time to change your evaluation.

 

 

Now, let me end with the feelings.  I believe people who espouse beliefs like yours are stupid, and I hope they will become less stupid.  I hope this, because at one point I was just as stupid.  My point of learning came about with Tribes...where I was put on a team that was getting curb stomped because the clan running the server was cheating.  My stupidity was switching teams, and bombing their base to make-up for the cheating.  I got banned from that server.  What I learned was that cheating isn't always punished, cheaters can win, and instead of being angry and trying for retribution I should have just logged out.  You cannot fix everything. 

I also became less stupid when I saw the garbage that was Denuvo.  The entirely rational reason for DRM is to protect investment...and I became smarter when I decided I'd never purchase anything with Denuvo...and support GoG.  If it wasn't DRM free it didn't deserve my money...the stated goal of protecting investment often comes with a garbage experience, which software companies don't give a crap about because the ToS frees them from culpability and they don't care that their stated goal is directly causing the experience to suck.

I'm hoping you get it.  I'm hoping that you can understand why your statement against this being a tax on people which is inherently built into stupidity.  Colloquially, a stupid tax is when you have to pay something because what you did was stupid...and in this case the stupid desire for instant gratification is paid for with an appreciably longer grind in duviri...for nothing more than getting a single frame and weapon slightly sooner...which will likely sit in your inventory because there's 50+ other options and none of the frames are the best at everything. 

 

I can bet now that you want to argue more.  Cool.  Have at it.  I have no illusions that you want to take offense to the terminology, instead of addressing the core argument.  The core argument is fact...forcing people to pay Pathos Clamps makes the duviri grind longer to get the same amount of Pathos Clamps.  It's that simple of an argument, and you want to do the mental gymnastics to say that it's not really that.  Cool.  If you want to call a spade a club, a club a heart, and a heart a diamond then I can't really argue you're wrong.  It's fundamentally wrong, but if you argue it by saying that words are an artificial construct it's arguable.  I'm just not willing to talk to you, and you shouldn't be surprised when the same crap is pulled on you. 

I see DE getting worse.  They want to pretend a transparent grab for extended engagement time is in fact an event to be celebrated, something they can bring back, and they want to frame this as just as good as any other event.  You want to defend them...if not directly, then by proxy of not calling that spade a spade.  That's authorizing them to do this and worse...and it's how we got the Regal Aya without platinum...until the huge backlash showed them their transparent greed was not acceptable.  If you're willing to let that slide then I cannot stop you.  Just don't be surprised when the next "event" is something like the initial railjack resource and time sink grind...instead of the modern (and much shorter/cheaper) version.  That's called a slippery slope argument...and it's generally frowned upon.  That said, DE has a decade of history to demonstrate that slippery slopes are not invalid...and that given enough time they will choose to degrade their output until we fight back.

 

 

 

Let me list off the fun things that demonstrate DE has had a...mixed history of quality and diminishing returns on things.

1) Universal Vacuum.

2) Railjack.

3) The constantly increasing cost of stuff with dog days...for a cosmetic ball.

4) Baro being promised as a way to spend all of the extra ducats...because years ago we couldn't even clean out the extra bits of prime junk from our inventory (making trading useless).  

5) Primes being promised as something special...whereas most are now just base+% and a critical drop in riven effectiveness.  Remember when we had stuff like the Pyrana Prime...that justified its existence?

6) Rivens as a means to make everything viable...becoming a statistical weight versus performance balance to balance usage statistics rather than making everything viable.

7) Open worlds being open worlds...instead of hubs with limited spaces.

8) Scarlet Spear linking ground and sky forces with Railjack...and it coming back.

I want these 8 to stand testament to DE promising the moon, delivering the Mariana trench, claiming success, and whenever confronted claiming both that they're just an indie developer and that it's free to play.  I 100% respect them being small...a decade ago.  I 100% respect them being an indie...but they're owned by ten cent.  I 100% respect them "doing free to play right..." but last steam they stated that incarnons were going to be purchasable because they were free to play...which should not be rewarded.  I just wish other players cared enough to stick around and stand against this...but instead we get people willing to go to bat for them and defend bad decisions.  It's cool, it's not like this paves the way for another...or another...or another regression.  I guess it's asking too much for any new event to be measured against old ones...or to state obviously that the tax=reward was already done right in Plague Star...but DE didn't learn that lesson. 

Ah well, it's not like this will be a 15 year game given the current decision making process and inability to support enough players with bi-annual content patches which always make the game a buggy mess for months.  Thank god that there aren't genuinely free games on Steam that are less buggy...looking at you Perfect Tower 2...and all your grindy glory.  Ah well, I'm betting you'll report me to moderation for "calling you stupid" and I'll eat a forum ban.  Not like I did, but that's the caliber of discourse here.  I'll look forward to another few weeks of time off from caring about anything...as shortly the grind for incarnons will be over...and without content this game isn't worth engaging with...which is the core to why DE structured this "event" with a tax that was only paid by people too blinded by instant gratification, and thus guilty of stupidity, to understand it was a trap...squid person meme and all.

 

 

Edit:

After reading through this again, it really seems like a $&*^ move to "quote" me and not actually quote.  "I'm stupid" is not a quote...but an intentionally abridged version of a quote defining things.  I'd suggest you find another way to express yourself...but that'd be asking for a human response.  Please, feel free to just consider yourself ignored from now on...because there's nothing to gain from understanding a caustic thought process beyond the burns of utter ignorance.

[cookiesareyummy]

On 2023-07-31 at 8:32 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

With this new Enhanced Damage System, that extra oomph is no longer needed, so those non-functional Critical Change values were removed, but the overall damage of these abilities are unchanged. 

This makes protea turrets ineligible for these decrees:

- double crit damage

- crits also deal cold and status

- damage against chilled

 

so abilities that have had this cosmetic feature may now be dealing as little as 1/8th damage in circuit.

 

Also, why is it no longer needed for the legacy damage numbers? The "enhanced" damage numbers don't give me a good idea of how much damage I deal because of how quickly they disappear when there are many of them and how they overlap. I don't think DE ran a test where they had players estimate how much damage they were doing with the old/new system, seems like it's all about "feeling"

 

Admittedly, protea is still godly. Give me my crits back 😢