Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

56 minutes ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Considering the decaying key was never supposed to be beneficial in the first place (much like the other dragon keys), i'd say the changes are needed. Plus i'm glad the overall shield buff is a big buff to Hildryn since her shields go down too fast at higher level content and she need shields to even use her abilities. She's still probably going to lose her shields really easily in high level / steel path content, but at least she should be able to bulk a few more hits until her shields take a hit

I really dislike the "the decaying key was meant to be a downside" argument for a number of reason. Now dont get me wrong I think the upcoming changes look really good especially for normal everyday content that most people will be playing, but shields did not need to be buffed nowhere near as much as health and armor needed to be buffed however what we are getting is only shield changes. Everyone focused too much on the key being a benefit rather than a downside instead of why it was a benefit and why the alternatives couldnt compete with it for high lvl content. Why didnt people mod for extra health and/or armor for high lvl content and choose to shield gate instead? Health tanking works in low lvl content just fine in fact far better than shield gating with the key but once enemy lvls get to a certain point you can no longer health tank as you will be one hit and are thus forced to use full on invulnerability just to stand a chance. But instead of addressing the problem with enemy damage being way to high and health and armor just falling off entirely people focus on how shield gating being the only viable form of survival and wan to bring it down rather than bring the other methods up. And because of all the key drama what we are getting changes to how shield gating works but shield gating will still be the only viable method of survival besides other full invulnerability methods while health and armor will still be useless and hell even modding for higher shields will still probably be kinda pointless as shields will still get one hit making it near impossible to gain the benefit of having a longer shield gate unless you can instantly regen all your shield which in that case you probably wont need that extra time to begin with.

Another reason why I dislike the augment is because of nova, if the reason the key is bad and needs changes is because its supposed to be a downside than speedva and other builds that utilize negative stats should also be treated the same.

[----Legacy----]

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Health tanking works in low lvl content just fine in fact far better than shield gating with the key but once enemy lvls get to a certain point you can no longer health tank as you will be one hit and are thus forced to use full on invulnerability just to stand a chance. But instead of addressing the problem with enemy damage being way to high and health and armor just falling off entirely people focus on how shield gating being the only viable form of survival and wan to bring it down rather than bring the other methods up. And because of all the key drama what we are getting changes to how shield gating works but shield gating will still be the only viable method of survival besides other full invulnerability methods [...]

Perhaps the real issue is a lack of balance in the game which becomes hard to address due to warframe being overbloated in systems which make any minor balance change end up creating a brand new imbalance.

I think it would be good to take a look at how does resource management work in any game where players have Health, Shields, Armor, Ammo, Abilities (Energy/Mana/Cooldowns) and deployables (Cooldowns again) and compare them to warframe where resource management becomes non-existant. Not to mention the lack of defined power floors and ceilings for both, player and enemies alike which reaches a (dumb) point where enemy damage is high enough to turn player EHP into a binary value so the only way to survive is constant damage immunity; while on the opposite side of things players can deal enough damage to shred level cap SP enemies no matter how dumb is their EHP.

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Another reason why I dislike the augment is because of nova, if the reason the key is bad and needs changes is because its supposed to be a downside than speedva and other builds that utilize negative stats should also be treated the same.

I'm sure this false equivalence has been addressed before and probably in this same thread. DE keeping the ability to use the current shield gating through a shield reduction corrupted mod only cements the idea of mods with negative stats being acceptable when it comes to turn negative effects into positive ones while free slots (such as dragon keys in the gear wheel) aren't. 

[(NSW)warfare3376]

36 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm sure this false equivalence has been addressed before and probably in this same thread. DE keeping the ability to use the current shield gating through a shield reduction corrupted mod only cements the idea of mods with negative stats being acceptable when it comes to turn negative effects into positive ones while free slots (such as dragon keys in the gear wheel) aren't. 

Theres no false equivalence just double standards, a frame like limbo who loves duration and would most likely run narrow minded even if the neg range didnt benefit him a all but since it does but since it does its a completely free benefit from what was meant to be a downside to merit the very high duration increase, or rivens where you are primarily using it for the positive stats it gives but just might happen to have something like neg impact where its nothing but completely free benefit for what supposed to be a downside for having increased positive stats. 

Also, I guarantee if the dragon keys did not exist and instead the was a corrupted mod that existed before shield gating was a thing that decreased you max shields in exchange for idk maybe more health or armor people would be at arms against the mod just like they are for the key. You want to why Im so sure about this? Its because thats just how people are, people like to hate on thing purely because they are popular I mean just look at primed sure footed, Ive seen multiple threads on why that mod should get nerfed and just like with the decaying key you see psf recommended in builds all the time, hmm. The key is hated because of its popularity not because its a "free slot" or "its meant to be a hinderance" those are just excuses to hate on it. But in the end all that drama worked and now the key is officially dead however the meta will stay the exact same, my bet is that the next decaying key will pillage and I bet theres gonna be a huge upsurge in its usage followed by a bunch hatred directed towards it and demands for it to be nerfed just like with the key, this happens all the time.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I think it would be good to take a look at how does resource management work in any game where players have Health, Shields, Armor, Ammo, Abilities (Energy/Mana/Cooldowns) and deployables (Cooldowns again) and compare them to warframe where resource management becomes non-existant. Not to mention the lack of defined power floors and ceilings for both, player and enemies alike which reaches a (dumb) point where enemy damage is high enough to turn player EHP into a binary value so the only way to survive is constant damage immunity; while on the opposite side of things players can deal enough damage to shred level cap SP enemies no matter how dumb is their EHP.

Normal game, also in steal path, have lvl like 120-300. Maby 500, but its top. No poit go bigger. And in this lvl maby its not problem, but i see only 2 problem. Its armor of enemies, and you need like armorstrip, or lot of fire, or slash. And player resusts. I mean, instead of doing like 90% resist on top of 90% resist, on top of 90% resist on top of 80% armor and you are perfect. Or just make 100500 overguard. And i imagine, what if healing not be so strong, what if 30% resist is a lot, but player health and shield like 20 time bigger? Or enemy damage like 20 time smaller. 

[RichardKam]

4小时前 , ----Legacy---- 说:

Perhaps the real issue is a lack of balance in the game which becomes hard to address due to warframe being overbloated in systems which make any minor balance change end up creating a brand new imbalance.

I think it would be good to take a look at how does resource management work in any game where players have Health, Shields, Armor, Ammo, Abilities (Energy/Mana/Cooldowns) and deployables (Cooldowns again) and compare them to warframe where resource management becomes non-existant. Not to mention the lack of defined power floors and ceilings for both, player and enemies alike which reaches a (dumb) point where enemy damage is high enough to turn player EHP into a binary value so the only way to survive is constant damage immunity; while on the opposite side of things players can deal enough damage to shred level cap SP enemies no matter how dumb is their EHP.

I would like to make a few notes here,

1. people only need shield gating for high level endurance in SP. By "high level" we are talking about at least lvl 500-1000+. Unless players decided to go that far (eg level cap, crack relics for 1 hour straight, or they just love defense for whatever reasons), otherwise most players will NOT encounter such level of enemies and therefore, shield gating was NOT needed. Players do not need shield gating for SP incursion, one SP endless AABC rotation, veil proxima void storms, archon hunt, etc.

2. when we talk about "balance" or "lack of balance", the game was not designed to balance around SP mode - it was designed to balance around regular starchart. 

3. With point 1 and 2 together, the game effectively becomes lawless land after level 1000+ in SP endurance. I won't blame DE for the lack of balance there because it was supposed to be unbalanced. Saying the game was not balanced because "at high level contents every known laws of physics breakdown" is not fair as well. High level content was never a benchmark to begin with. It was an outlier. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by RichardKam

[Aruquae]

Was still using armor tanking

Shield Gate was always kind of busted, especially with the decaying dragon key

Probably won’t use the concept of “shield gate” purposefully, but I will gladly take the 50% damage reduction on the shields

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Hildryn is gonna be damn near unkillable when the update drops, currently what you have to do to keep hildryn alive after her shields break is either do a well timed rolling guard so you can regen some shields during the i-frames to cast pillage or use vazarin or a shield restore pad but after the update launches all you will need is fast deflection since fast deflection alone will reduce the shield regen delay to 2.2 secs and since hildryns full shield gate will be a 3.5 secs shield gate it means that that there will be 1.3 secs where your shields will be regening while you are completely invulnerable. From there you just cast pillage again and it repeats, and unlike the prior methods fast deflection is completely passive, theres no cooldown and its always active so you dont even have to think about it which that alone is a massive buff but then theres also the 50% dr buff too tho there is one very specific situation where the dr buff is actually a slight downgrade but that situation probably wont ever happen so overall its a gigabuff to hildryn and I also am looking forward to it.

Yep I really wanna see how crazy Hildryn can get. And if she follows the same cap needed as others with 1150 shields for the full gate, it will be ridiculously easy to maintain it on her both thanks to pillage and her huge shields. She still wont have good passive reg while shields are active, since I'll probably still stick to Haven+Blazing Pillage, but then again she shouldnt need reg when she can gain more shields on demand and arcane aegis exsists aswell. 

I'm tempted to slot both Fast Deflection and Vigilate Vigor on her, that would give her +150% shield recharge rate and -75% recharge delay. Resulting in her ending up at 1 second delay at full depletion with a gate of 3.5 sec, leaving her 2.5 sec to reg, which means 2 full ticks before the gate is over. If you can combine this with around 4k shields she'd reg back to the 2.5 cap by the time the gate is over. This can be achieved with Redirection that grants her prime 3760 shields, then a few shards to get her to or above 4k. With 2 tau she'd replenish 1125 in 2 seconds flat, with 2 normal azure you look at 1090 in 2 seconds.

 

 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I would like to make a few notes here,

1. people only need shield gating for high level endurance in SP. By "high level" we are talking about at least lvl 500-1000+. Unless players decided to go that far (eg level cap, crack relics for 1 hour straight, or they just love defense for whatever reasons), otherwise most players will NOT encounter such level of enemies and therefore, shield gating was NOT needed. Players do not need shield gating for SP incursion, one SP endless AABC rotation, veil proxima void storms, archon hunt, etc.

2. when we talk about "balance" or "lack of balance", the game was not designed to balance around SP mode - it was designed to balance around regular starchart. 

3. With point 1 and 2 together, the game effectively becomes lawless land after level 1000+ in SP endurance. I won't blame DE for the lack of balance there because it was supposed to be unbalanced. Saying the game was not balanced because "at high level contents every known laws of physics breakdown" is not fair as well. High level content was never a benchmark to begin with. It was an outlier. 

Even on base sp grendel, Nezha or any other tank set up still gets one shot by blast eximus regardless of health and armor. So no, shield gating is not just for endurance runs. I also don't believe the game is balanced around base star chart as most weapons will one shot any enemy on it. Our modding system is not balanced around base star chart at all. Just because DE has said they don't balance for sp doesn't mean everything is balanced for base star chart. It simply means there is no balance and they admit defeat trying.

Edited October 11, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[----Legacy----]

4 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I would like to make a few notes here,

1. people only need shield gating for high level endurance in SP. By "high level" we are talking about at least lvl 500-1000+. Unless players decided to go that far (eg level cap, crack relics for 1 hour straight, or they just love defense for whatever reasons), otherwise most players will NOT encounter such level of enemies and therefore, shield gating was NOT needed. Players do not need shield gating for SP incursion, one SP endless AABC rotation, veil proxima void storms, archon hunt, etc.

2. when we talk about "balance" or "lack of balance", the game was not designed to balance around SP mode - it was designed to balance around regular starchart. 

3. With point 1 and 2 together, the game effectively becomes lawless land after level 1000+ in SP endurance. I won't blame DE for the lack of balance there because it was supposed to be unbalanced. Saying the game was not balanced because "at high level contents every known laws of physics breakdown" is not fair as well. High level content was never a benchmark to begin with. It was an outlier. 

I know that DE added SP as sort of a hard mode and said they wouldn't balance anything around it (doing so would make it trivial, just like any previous attempt to have a hard mode in wf) even though they also added a brand new layer of powercreep to make SP easier to complete (galvanized mods and weapon arcanes). 

Players being able to survive and shred high level SP enemies despite the game being "balanced" around normal starchart is only further proof of DE's failure when it comes balancing the game.

[----Legacy----]

7 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Theres no false equivalence just double standards

It's a false equivalence since DE won't remove the ability to get a positive effect from negative shields; they're just moving it from a free slot in the gear wheel to a mod slot so people who want to use it after the change will have to actually find a way to make it fit in their builds unlike now.

7 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

frame like limbo who loves duration and would most likely run narrow minded even if the neg range didnt benefit him a all but since it does but since it does its a completely free benefit from what was meant to be a downside to merit the very high duration increase,

It all depends of the purpose, while using negative range Limbo you're giving up the ability to control crowds in a huge area for the ability to protect a very small target from incoming damage.

7 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

or rivens where you are primarily using it for the positive stats it gives but just might happen to have something like neg impact where its nothing but completely free benefit for what supposed to be a downside for having increased positive stats. 

Do we really need to go through this again? The false equivalence you refuse to address isn't the ability to get a positive from a negative but instead about getting it from items that aren't part of the build itself, like dragon keys being slotted in the gear wheel where the player gets an effect from something that doesn't make us sacrifice something else since -currently- it doesn't drain mod capacity and doesn't use a mod, arcane nor shard slot either.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Even on base sp grendel, Nezha or any other tank set up still gets one shot by blast eximus regardless of health and armor. So no, shield gating is not just for endurance runs. I also don't believe the game is balanced around base star chart as most weapons will one shot any enemy on it. Our modding system is not balanced around base star chart at all. Just because DE has said they don't balance for sp doesn't mean everything is balanced for base star chart. It simply means there is no balance and they admit defeat trying.

Not entirely true if you actually run a tank setup. Nezha yes, but he also doesnt have a considerably high ehp pool, while also suffering from two bugged invulnerability states, his Halo when it expires, which also #*!%s over his shield gate from triggering quite often. I mean in the end he has an Iron Skin that only soaks up 90% of the damage dealt in return for a guaranteed invulnerability window when the halo breaks, a guarantee that in reality isnt guaranteed due to the bug. It's the reason why I never touch the frame.

Grendel has no problem surviving a Blast Eximus, he has enough armor and HP to pull it off if you've built him tanky, just as Lavos doesnt die to them either if caught without shields. You need to go for quite a while before the Blast Eximus can actually insta-gib those frames, or get caught in a very bad situation where others have already taken chunks of your health. Which is rare since you likely sit between 90-100% life constantly as Grace ticks or your pet deals damage to enemies constantly, or perhaps with both in effect.

[Aruquae]

14 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I really dislike the "the decaying key was meant to be a downside" argument for a number of reason. Now dont get me wrong I think the upcoming changes look really good especially for normal everyday content that most people will be playing, but shields did not need to be buffed nowhere near as much as health and armor needed to be buffed however what we are getting is only shield changes. Everyone focused too much on the key being a benefit rather than a downside instead of why it was a benefit and why the alternatives couldnt compete with it for high lvl content. Why didnt people mod for extra health and/or armor for high lvl content and choose to shield gate instead? Health tanking works in low lvl content just fine in fact far better than shield gating with the key but once enemy lvls get to a certain point you can no longer health tank as you will be one hit and are thus forced to use full on invulnerability just to stand a chance. But instead of addressing the problem with enemy damage being way to high and health and armor just falling off entirely people focus on how shield gating being the only viable form of survival and wan to bring it down rather than bring the other methods up. And because of all the key drama what we are getting changes to how shield gating works but shield gating will still be the only viable method of survival besides other full invulnerability methods while health and armor will still be useless and hell even modding for higher shields will still probably be kinda pointless as shields will still get one hit making it near impossible to gain the benefit of having a longer shield gate unless you can instantly regen all your shield which in that case you probably wont need that extra time to begin with.

Another reason why I dislike the augment is because of nova, if the reason the key is bad and needs changes is because its supposed to be a downside than speedva and other builds that utilize negative stats should also be treated the same.

Nova was more of a fun gimmick, speedva isn’t needed, she just makes things easier. Her build also took up mod slots, unlike decaying dragon key. Speedva also has downsides, no hard CC. Decaying Dragon Key had no downsides, didn’t use up any mods to really count as a part of the “build,” and was used as a crutch by quite a lot of players. Them replacing it with a mod really doesn’t change anything aside from one mod slot dedicated to that one type of build. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

23 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not entirely true if you actually run a tank setup. Nezha yes, but he also doesnt have a considerably high ehp pool, while also suffering from two bugged invulnerability states, his Halo when it expires, which also #*!%s over his shield gate from triggering quite often. I mean in the end he has an Iron Skin that only soaks up 90% of the damage dealt in return for a guaranteed invulnerability window when the halo breaks, a guarantee that in reality isnt guaranteed due to the bug. It's the reason why I never touch the frame.

Grendel has no problem surviving a Blast Eximus, he has enough armor and HP to pull it off if you've built him tanky, just as Lavos doesnt die to them either if caught without shields. You need to go for quite a while before the Blast Eximus can actually insta-gib those frames, or get caught in a very bad situation where others have already taken chunks of your health. Which is rare since you likely sit between 90-100% life constantly as Grace ticks or your pet deals damage to enemies constantly, or perhaps with both in effect.

I have tested just about every type of tank setup and all of them get one shot at base sp. It's apparently a bug but it's been around for years.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

4 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Do we really need to go through this again? The false equivalence you refuse to address isn't the ability to get a positive from a negative but instead about getting it from items that aren't part of the build itself, like dragon keys being slotted in the gear wheel where the player gets an effect from something that doesn't make us sacrifice something else since -currently- it doesn't drain mod capacity and doesn't use a mod, arcane nor shard slot either.

On call crew gives you an insane amount of free damage while you sacrifice nothing in the process, or energy pads that only cost a very negligible amount of resources but have no other downsides to using. Thats just how gear items are, you can argue that those have limitations like having cooldowns, well the key has its own limitations too. You need to have a certain amount of shield restoration for you to gain any benefit at all and more often than not you could not use any efficiency mods while using it either. Like I said all the "its supposed to be a negative" or "its a gear item that requires no sacrifice" arguments are just excuses to hate on it and demand nerfs to it, the only reason its hated so much is because of its popularity and place in the meta and I guarantee if the key did actually have some kind of cost the situation would be no different. But hey all those complaints ended up working in the end, the key will officially be dead next update and you will have to use a mod to get the same benefit so everything should be fine now right? Try to remember that when the next new big thing comes out to replace the key in terms in meta and popularity, my guess is that will be pillage but I can also see it being fast deflection plus vigilante auger plus vazarins guardian break as the next target most likely pillage tho.

[----Legacy----]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

On call crew gives you an insane amount of free damage while you sacrifice nothing in the process

Yet more false equivalences:

On call crew isn't a passive effect, it's a manually activated effect with a set duration + cooldown between calls. 

4 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Energy pads that only cost a very negligible amount of resources but have no other downsides to using

But unlike the dragon key, you have to manually deploy pads, then you either wait 4 seconds for the next pulse or deploy more pads to get a bigger effect in a shorter time. 

There's also a limit to how many pads of each type can be deployed in a mission (never seen anyone reach it since, iirc, it's like 200) so, even if the crafting costs are negligible, there's a chance to run out of  pads no matter how small it is.

And you are comparing that to a Dragon Key: Do you have to manually activate the Dragon Key every time you shield gate? Is there a cooldown between uses? The key also has a negligible crafting cost but, do you need to bulk craft them after each missions to avoid running out of them?

14 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Thats just how gear items are, you can argue that those have limitations like having cooldowns, well the key has its own limitations too.

The key on itself doesn't have any limitation beyond "equip this in gear wheel to get effect".

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You need to have a certain amount of shield restoration for you to gain any benefit at all and more often than not you could not use any efficiency mods while using it either.

That's why pretty much everyone says that the so-called limitation of the key is building around it, which turns it into a free slot without any downside.

17 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Like I said all the "its supposed to be a negative" or "its a gear item that requires no sacrifice" arguments are just excuses to hate on it and demand nerfs to it, the only reason its hated so much is because of its popularity and place in the meta

You can hate on those arguments all you want, call these any name that makes you feel better and throw as many fallacies as you want to argue against them in an attempt to defend the use of the Dragon Key. But it won't change that those arguments are right, DE agrees and is taking action against this dumb meta.

20 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I guarantee if the key did actually have some kind of cost the situation would be no different

Further proof there is no cost to equipping a key on a free slot for a passive effect. Thanks.

22 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Try to remember that when the next new big thing comes out to replace the key in terms in meta and popularity, my guess is that will be pillage but I can also see it being fast deflection plus vigilante auger plus vazarins guardian break as the next target most likely pillage tho.

At least when usimg either of those players have to give up something else:

- Pillage? Give away one of your warframe powers (and the ability to equip something else in its place)

- Fast deflection? Augur set? Less mod slots and capacity to play with in order to get the most out of the frame's capabilities.

- Vazarin? Now you're locked into a single focus school.

So yeah, it may be more acceptable after the change even though i wouldn't be surprised if pillage eventually got to be infused enough to get its Helminth version nerfed just like some other abilities (like Roar) were preemptively nerfed when to the system was first added and meta slaves got another outcry because of this.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You can hate on those arguments all you want, call these any name that makes you feel better and throw as many fallacies as you want to argue against them in an attempt to defend the use of the Dragon Key. But it won't change that those arguments are right, DE agrees and is taking action against this dumb meta.

And vise versa for you. And you seem to think Im defending the keys usage when that is completely false, I simply hate all the excuses give to nerf the thing despite it dont providing much benefit at all outside of extremely high lvl endurance (which most of the playerbase doesnt even bother with) and an alternative playstyle, a playstyle that I personally find quite tedious to upkeep and dont typically play myself. The reason I hate all those excuses is because instead of using those excuses in an attempt to expand and open the meta instead they are used in an attempt to kill the meta which is simply not possible, you are all upset at the wrong thing. Health tanking will still suck at high lvls as health and armor are not getting touched at all and shield gating will still be necessary in those lvls nothing will change so congrats your pettiness has only slightly inconvenienced the shield gate builds that will still dominate the meta and created a mod that probably wont get used much at all as the need to be at full shields is now gone and outright buffed shield gate builds that use pillage and condemn all while keeping all the other options just as unviable as ever for high lvl content.

 

[----Legacy----]

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And vise versa for you.

So deep, i love it, even though the term doesn't even apply in this case (also, it's written with C, not S)

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And you seem to think Im defending the keys usage when that is completely false, I simply hate all the excuses give to nerf the thing [...]

So you don't defend the use of key, you're just trying to take down the arguments against a meta with expiration date (and failing at it) 🤔

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

[...] despite it dont providing much benefit at all outside of extremely high lvl endurance (which most of the playerbase doesnt even bother with)

How is practical damage immunity "not much benefit at all"? How is practical damage immunity useless "outside of extremely high level endurance" when it's available at any stage of the game regardless of enemies being able to one-shot your shields or not? (And yes, i'm aware that dying is harder than completing the mission in certain levels of content, but that doesn't mean that practical damage immunity is useless).

5 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The reason I hate all those excuses is because instead of using those excuses in an attempt to expand and open the meta instead they are used in an attempt to kill the meta which is simply not possible, you are all upset at the wrong thing.

But you seem to forget that the current state of shield gating will remain available, it's just being moved from its current no-brainer free slot in the gear wheel to a mod slot where we will have to actually think on what else to remove in order to make use of it, just like we do when brainstorming for any kind of build (except for people who just copies their builds from Youtube, overframe, etc)

5 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Health tanking will still suck at high lvls as health and armor are not getting touched at all

DE is doing balance changes so health tanking may be touched eventually even though i don't like the idea of further buffs to player durability since these only keep making the game easer and easier every time which goes against the constant request for challenging content (i really wish for an actual challenge in warframe for once, but one which can't be simply trivialized by holding W and pressing Roll 1234 at the proper rythm)

5 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

congrats your pettiness has only slightly inconvenienced the shield gate builds that will still dominate the meta and created a mod that probably wont get used much at all as the need to be at full shields is now gone and outright buffed shield gate builds that use pillage and condemn all while keeping all the other options just as unviable as ever for high lvl content.

Ohh, you already see the meta move from "use augur mods and slot item in gear wheel" to "find ways to recover shield quickly during damage immunity to keep negating damage and survive" 

The latter seems to have a lot more possibilities than the former, it's almost like the change was somehow, dunno, expanding and opening the meta instead of keeping people cornered into a single setup.

Isn't that what you claim to want?

Because that's how it seems to me even if the new mod doesn't get much use and people stick to each warframe's default shield values.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

11 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

How is practical damage immunity "not much benefit at all"? How is practical damage immunity useless "outside of extremely high level endurance" when it's available at any stage of the game regardless of enemies being able to one-shot your shields or not?

Thats not what the key does, all the key does is lower the threshold to get a full shield gate, it doesnt enable shield gating possible asyou can shield gate by default, it doesnt magically extend the duration of the gate, and it doesnt magically remove the needed to get that shield gate either. This is another thing I really dislike is the overvaluing of the key. 

As for the damage immunity well thats just straight up false, you do in fact take damage when you shield gate in the form of energy. If you want just 10 secs of full invulnerability that will drain about 400 energy, sometimes more sometimes less depending on the frame, and if you run out of energy well you die. As for how it not being much of a benefit well those i-frames are complete overkill for the majority of the games content when a health tank build will effectively preform the exact same with far less effort required. 

49 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

But you seem to forget that the current state of shield gating will remain available, it's just being moved from its current no-brainer free slot in the gear wheel to a mod slot where we will have to actually think on what else to remove in order to make use of it, just like we do when brainstorming for any kind of build (except for people who just copies their builds from Youtube, overframe, etc)

Yea think what we should remove in our builds, thats a pretty easy one and thats the new catalyzing shields mod. Ive already explained why the mod most likely get much use in this thread but basically since shield gate duration will no longer be an all or nothing type deal there will be no reason to intentionally lower your shields and the extra time that the mod will give is not that much.

And also if the new mod was actually needed to effectively shield gate it would do the exact opposite as you say of what you say, it would not encourage better build crafting or brainstorming it would actually hinder it. Theres a reason why viral hm is so vastly used despite there being so many other options or why health tank builds are hardly used over shield gate builds, if a build demands something extra in order to work properly well chances are it just wont get used no matter how strong that build could be when it works. luckily tho this wont be the case for the new mod tho pillage usage will still probably spike up likee crazy.

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

DE is doing balance changes so health tanking may be touched eventually even though i don't like the idea of further buffs to player durability since these only keep making the game easer and easier every time which goes against the constant request for challenging content (i really wish for an actual challenge in warframe for once, but one which can't be simply trivialized by holding W and pressing Roll 1234 at the proper rythm)

Challenging content does not have to be tied exclusively to how much damage enemies do to you or vise versa you know. When people ask for more challenge content in warframe the dont mean just have the enemies do more damage and have more health. Right now all the difficulty in warframe is purely artificial, its just big number vs other big number and whichever is the biggest wins.

 

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Ohh, you already see the meta move from "use augur mods and slot item in gear wheel" to "find ways to recover shield quickly during damage immunity to keep negating damage and survive" 

The latter seems to have a lot more possibilities than the former, it's almost like the change was somehow, dunno, expanding and opening the meta instead of keeping people cornered into a single setup.

Isn't that what you claim to want?

Because that's how it seems to me even if the new mod doesn't get much use and people stick to each warframe's default shield values.

The amount of ways to restore large amounts of shields is far smaller than the amount of frames that can get a full shield gate with auger/respite and key with the current system so I dont get how you see that as expanding the meta. Luckily with the way DE handled how the new shield mechanic works that for the most part nothing will change but even still there probably be a shift to people using stuff like pillage or frames like mag which are much more restrictive than the key every was.

[----Legacy----]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Thats not what the key does, all the key does is lower the threshold to get a full shield gate, it doesnt enable shield gating possible asyou can shield gate by default, it doesnt magically extend the duration of the gate, and it doesnt magically remove the needed to get that shield gate either. This is another thing I really dislike is the overvaluing of the key. 

I know how the key works, it doesn't change that it's part of a setup meant to abuse shield gates by keeping their damage immunity time up for the longest possible which becomes a lot easier with the free passive -75% shield from the Dragon Key.

35 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

As for the damage immunity well thats just straight up false, you do in fact take damage when you shield gate in the form of energy. If you want just 10 secs of full invulnerability that will drain about 400 energy, sometimes more sometimes less depending on the frame, and if you run out of energy well you die.

You talk as if energy was scarce and only available from orbs even though Arcane Energize, Zenurik and Nourish (Helminth ability) exist. Yeah, that's not gonna fly here.

35 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

As for how it not being much of a benefit well those i-frames are complete overkill for the majority of the games content when a health tank build will effectively preform the exact same with far less effort required. 

Something being overkill for certain content doesn't make it unavailable for it nor removes reasons to take it there. If my setup can kill high level SP enemies and survive against them then there's no reason why it wouldn't work in sorties, arbitrations or normal starmap; it's just gonna be overkill but who cares and why.

46 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea think what we should remove in our builds, thats a pretty easy one and thats the new catalyzing shields mod. Ive already explained why the mod most likely get much use in this thread but basically since shield gate duration will no longer be an all or nothing type deal there will be no reason to intentionally lower your shields and the extra time that the mod will give is not that much.

Care to point where i discussed against the theoretical uselessness of the catalyzing shields mod? 

Also, shield gate at ~325 shields will be 1.33 seconds (same as current duration) scaling with shields remaining on break (less shields gives shorter gates and the values can go between 0.33s to 2.5s); Catalyzing shields allows to keep that 1.33 base gate even with much lower shields so can still have niche uses, the main difference being that the current shield gating won't be enabled through a free slot anymore.

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And also if the new mod was actually needed to effectively shield gate it would do the exact opposite as you say of what you say, it would not encourage better build crafting or brainstorming it would actually hinder it.

I've never said that the new mod will be needed to effectively shield gate, just that it's gonna enable the current state of shield gating. What's actually going to encourage build diversity are the changes to how shields work (gating included) not the catalyzing shields mod.

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Challenging content does not have to be tied exclusively to how much damage enemies do to you or vise versa you know. When people ask for more challenge content in warframe the dont mean just have the enemies do more damage and have more health. Right now all the difficulty in warframe is purely artificial, its just big number vs other big number and whichever is the biggest wins.

I'm with you on challenge not (only) coming from how much damage enemies can take nor how much damage they deal, however, there is no challenge either when no matter how much damage they deal it's always multiplied by 0 on hit and we can turn their health bars into almost binary values no matter how much damage reduction they get.

Numbers aren't the culprit but their role in challenge can't be denied either.

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The amount of ways to restore large amounts of shields is far smaller than the amount of frames that can get a full shield gate with auger/respite and key with the current system so I dont get how you see that as expanding the meta. Luckily with the way DE handled how the new shield mechanic works that for the most part nothing will change but even still there probably be a shift to people using stuff like pillage or frames like mag which are much more restrictive than the key every was.

Partially recovered shields are going from their current fixed 0.33 seconds immunity (reason why reducing shields was desired as a way to get the 1.33 seconds long immunity from full shields asap) to scale with how much shields were recovered which sounds nice at least on paper and keeps shield respite and augur set as valuable tools to increase the uptime of damage immunity, especially setups meant to recover energy quickly since it can be turned into shields.

Change is fun and this one in particular looks like a good one for experimentation to me.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

17 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You talk as if energy was scarce and only available from orbs even though Arcane Energize, Zenurik and Nourish (Helminth ability) exist. Yeah, that's not gonna fly here.

No, you sure as hell jumped to that assumption tho. When you are using shield gating as your main method of survivability your energy bar essentially becomes your health bar so when I said I said youre draining 400 energy for 10 secs of invulnerability I meant that youre effectively draining a certain amount of your effective health bar thus you are taking damage and not truly invincible.  And just like with health tanking you need a way to restore that health and the i-frames of the shield gates slows down the rate at which you take damage to allow more time to do so just like armor or other sources of dr does for health tanking.

Also what happened to the key being completely free? If you need to be locked into one focus school or one helminth option well to have enough energy to sustain it well that does not sound very free to me. 

35 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Something being overkill for certain content doesn't make it unavailable for it nor removes reasons to take it there. If my setup can kill high level SP enemies and survive against them then there's no reason why it wouldn't work in sorties, arbitrations or normal starmap; it's just gonna be overkill but who cares and why.

Yea who exactly cares? Everyone apparently. But heres the thing, yes it works in lower lvl content just fine but since youre giving up all forms of survivability apart from shield gating with the key it means you will have put in the same amount of effort and resources to stay alive as you would in the higher lvls. At those lower lvls health tank builds are far easier to use and require far fewer resources all for just using a couple extra mods, so yea you could use a shield gate for that content and save some mod space but your build will require more effort to use which kinda sounds like a downside to me but that cant be since the key apparently doesnt have any downsides.

 

50 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I've never said that the new mod will be needed to effectively shield gate, just that it's gonna enable the current state of shield gating. What's actually going to encourage build diversity are the changes to how shields work (gating included) not the catalyzing shields mod.

Youre not wrong that the new shield changes will create a bunch of new build options, however it will not be as diverse as what the decaying key gives. You said it yourself the key is basically a free mod right?

 

54 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm with you on challenge not (only) coming from how much damage enemies can take nor how much damage they deal, however, there is no challenge either when no matter how much damage they deal it's always multiplied by 0 on hit and we can turn their health bars into almost binary values no matter how much damage reduction they get.

Numbers aren't the culprit but their role in challenge can't be denied either.

Again shield gating does not equal invincibility. If you take a hit you will have to spend other resources to be able to take the next in this case energy. You also have to react to that hit you took otherwise you will die shortly after, it doesnt nullify any challenge but does enable that challenge to be possible.

 

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Partially recovered shields are going from their current fixed 0.33 seconds immunity (reason why reducing shields was desired as a way to get the 1.33 seconds long immunity from full shields asap) to scale with how much shields were recovered which sounds nice at least on paper and keeps shield respite and augur set as valuable tools to increase the uptime of damage immunity, especially setups meant to recover energy quickly since it can be turned into shields.

Change is fun and this one in particular looks like a good one for experimentation to me.

I am down for the changes too but I dont understand why you are too considering how against the decaying key you are. It will basically be the exact same as it is now you just wont use the key, the reason the key was needed was because as you mentioned to get back full shields as quickly as possible but why is it so necessary to get back the full shield gate so quickly, why couldnt you just double cast or triple cast since as you also mentioned earlier energy is very easy to come by? Well its because of how fast on often enemies damage you, there simply isnt enough time to regen any more shields during a .33 sec gate to continue surviving so it had to be all or nothing and the same will be sorta the same with the new system. If you shield regen is too low with the new system the gate you wont be able to build up enough shields fast enough to deal with the incoming damage, there will probably be a threshold like there is now my guess is around a .8-1sec gate or 150-175ish shields judging by the chart they gave which is very achievable for a lot of current shield gate builds by just using a 75 cost ability instead of a 50 cost. Point is an optimal method will be discovered then spread like wildfire, question is will it get the same hate that the key received.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Also what happened to the key being completely free? If you need to be locked into one focus school or one helminth option well to have enough energy to sustain it well that does not sound very free to me.

The key is still a free slot, the more i read from you the more i see that you just have a huge salad made from apples, lettuce, toluene, oranges, milk, vodka and may The Lotus knows what else in the mix that keeps you doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to deny that the free slot is because the key is an external item (not a mod, not an arcane, not an archon shard, not a focus school) used in a particular setup that involves all of the things mentioned + the key itself or saying stuff like "your energy bar becomes your health" like if it was Quick Thinking which (fun enough, QT had its own setup for invincibility when mixed with Rage back in the day which got it reworked into its current iteration and we had players loud against the change just like you) even though that's just because you turn energy into shields to reset gates to avoid taking HP damage and there's enough ways to recover energy available on every frame to make most frames SG viable after the 75% reduction of their base shields.

I'm not even sure about to keep discussing any further since pretty much everything has already been said over and over again to a point where the dicussion seems to be going in circles, so feel free to go ahead and have the last word if you want.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I have tested just about every type of tank setup and all of them get one shot at base sp. It's apparently a bug but it's been around for years.

The Blitz bug was fixed quite a while ago, june last year to be more precise. I havent ran into issues with them on a single frame I play and I practically only play those that rely on armor and HP to survive, and/or rely on a DR skill, with the exception of Hildryn and Protea. And it takes a while before I get to the point where I need to consider my survival. I also tend to play the most dense modes, like Survival and Disruption. And it is all solo, so I dont have up to 7 other distractions with me for the enemy.

I tend to go 3x umbra, possibly Primed Vigor, then either Grace or Blessing along with a combination of armor/hp shards as needed without sacrificing shards that the frame might actually benefit more from. Like my Garuda, she uses uhm strength, cast speed and then dumps the free spots on armor since she uses blessing, my Lavos is 5x strength, Grendel is a mix of cast speed and strength with 2 armor shards to buff him slightly when empty on food stuff after going ape with regurg. I actually dont rely on his eating to buff my TTL, I use it mostly as an offensive tool. Citrine is a mix of cast speed and armor shards since she also uses blessing.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The Blitz bug was fixed quite a while ago, june last year to be more precise. I havent ran into issues with them on a single frame I play and I practically only play those that rely on armor and HP to survive, and/or rely on a DR skill, with the exception of Hildryn and Protea. And it takes a while before I get to the point where I need to consider my survival. I also tend to play the most dense modes, like Survival and Disruption. And it is all solo, so I dont have up to 7 other distractions with me for the enemy.

I tend to go 3x umbra, possibly Primed Vigor, then either Grace or Blessing along with a combination of armor/hp shards as needed without sacrificing shards that the frame might actually benefit more from. Like my Garuda, she uses uhm strength, cast speed and then dumps the free spots on armor since she uses blessing, my Lavos is 5x strength, Grendel is a mix of cast speed and strength with 2 armor shards to buff him slightly when empty on food stuff after going ape with regurg. I actually dont rely on his eating to buff my TTL, I use it mostly as an offensive tool. Citrine is a mix of cast speed and armor shards since she also uses blessing.

Where can you find the bug had been fixed. It definitely has not nor can I find the patch notes at least on wiki. I run into this issue everytime I do a sp survival fissure and am not shield gating(which I have to rely on even for tanky froms because of said issue).

Edit. The patch notes says blitz eximus damage is more consistent. This did not fix the issue and there are reports here and in reddit even after that update of players being one shot by them.

Edited October 12, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[SneakyErvin]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Where can you find the bug had been fixed. It definitely has not nor can I find the patch notes at least on wiki. I run into this issue everytime I do a sp survival fissure and am not shield gating(which I have to rely on even for tanky froms because of said issue).

Edit. The patch notes says blitz eximus damage is more consistent. This did not fix the issue and there are reports here and in reddit even after that update of players being one shot by them.

Yep that is the fix. To be fully honest it is silly to think we should never get "1-shot". And since people tend to not mention their specific modding or show a video of the incident those reports should be taken with a grain of salt. We've even had videos seen here on the forums over and over where people claim 1-shot, but when others actually look through them that ends up as false. People did also claim they got 1-shot by Blitz units at star chart/Zariman levels with tank builds, including Inaros. I tested it at the time in Zariman missions and there was no tank build that got even remotely close to getting 1-shot by a Blitz at those levels, and that was before the fix in question.

And this is without us considering just how slow those units are when it comes to using their skill, and how much they stand out to the rest of the mobs even in the thickest of combat. I wouldnt be surprised if the "I got 1-shot by Blitz!" reports come from players playing only melee, constantly taking damage and have no situational awareness to spot the Blitz. So they end up getting bush whacked by a tremor up their pooper.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yep that is the fix. To be fully honest it is silly to think we should never get "1-shot". And since people tend to not mention their specific modding or show a video of the incident those reports should be taken with a grain of salt. We've even had videos seen here on the forums over and over where people claim 1-shot, but when others actually look through them that ends up as false. People did also claim they got 1-shot by Blitz units at star chart/Zariman levels with tank builds, including Inaros. I tested it at the time in Zariman missions and there was no tank build that got even remotely close to getting 1-shot by a Blitz at those levels, and that was before the fix in question.

And this is without us considering just how slow those units are when it comes to using their skill, and how much they stand out to the rest of the mobs even in the thickest of combat. I wouldnt be surprised if the "I got 1-shot by Blitz!" reports come from players playing only melee, constantly taking damage and have no situational awareness to spot the Blitz. So they end up getting bush whacked by a tremor up their pooper.

When you build a tank frame no one should get one shot at base levels on sp especially considering frames with no defense but 1 shield do not get one shot. Once again the bug was not fixed.

Edited October 12, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna