Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ok so what about nova then, her ability to speed enemies up was unintended, was that too justified by the fact the unintended feature started the same time as release? The key gate combo is literally the same as the interaction with negs on rivs and negs on corrupted mods on certain frames namely nova, baruuk, limbo, the reason its perceived differently is cause of how popular shield gating is and people like to hate on things that are super popular solely because they are popular. Also I would like to point out that we actually did know about the decaying key interaction between shield gate before shield gating was implemented to every warframe,  this interaction happened with hildryn back when shield gating was exclusive to her, to be fair it wasnt very popular as it rendered her unable to use any of her abilities but Id say it was still known enough. And even besides that the key interaction was pick up on quite early on and grew in popularity very quickly yet it took years to finally change, why? Its not like it been a long kept secret, I bet the reason it is finally getting some change or at least part of reason is because of how popular it has become and all the drama that came from that popularity. The reason know this is because with this upcoming update we are only getting improvements to shields when in reality shields were already in a fine state and what we really needed was improvements to health and armor, the shield changes are good and probably should have been a thing a long time ago but nowhere near as needed as buffs to health and armor are.

Your argument depends on taking the concept of consistency to an absurd degree. Just because items in category A are consistent among themselves doesn't mean items in category B have to also be consistent with items in category A if category B items are consistent among themselves.

In other words: Dragon Keys only need to be consistent among themselves. They don't have to be consistent with how you use mods. 

The interaction discovered when Hildryn was introduced doesn't negate that the item was still an outlier within its own category. It was an oversight. Waiting years to fix it doesn't negate a previously-existing item consistent with other items in its own group suddenly became:

1) An immortality buff.

2) That was free because it didn't require a mod slot.

You can make the same argument about Nova (First in a category to become inconsistent with the rest of the category). However: The benefit of decreasing strength to speed-up enemies is only an advantage in the context of decreasing mission time for wave-based objectives. It's only an advantage from the player's point of view because it decreases the time they spend in a mission.

Outside player convenience (Because they are done faster), in reality you are further increasing the risk of mission failure by increasing the number of active targets targets to deal with and their attack speed. Furthermore: The benefit of Speedva decreases linearly as the mission drags on and you then want to slow enemies down. This means speedva is not the obvious best choice 100% of the time and likely a consideration as to why it has been allowed to be recognized as a legitimate implementation by DE, contrary to using the DDK. 

You seem to think popularity is a factor at play for the decision even though there were people like me who pushed DE to fix the exploit from day 1 long before it became the de-facto meta.... But you have already rejected the argument of the implementation being free (Using the DDK was free; it's a gear item and you have to remove/sacrifice nothing in exchange for its benefits).

So just as I posted before: This answer won't be satisfactory to you.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Leqesai]

27 minutes ago, TaraTSoni said:

I said that part, not all of it, I like that mag volt hildryn harrow have more time of shield gating, I also didn't insult anyone to be toxic but wf that they don't regenerate shield by skill it's going to be more complicated and without counting the wf that become invisible I'll simply leave to break the hand with the vazarin every 3 seconds I wouldn't know what to modify in my build to put this mod he said it from experience not just by coming to throw hater

I should clarify. I brought up toxicity not because I am saying you are toxic nor that you were saying anyone was toxic. This community can be very toxic when balance changes occur.

[TaraTSoni]

hace 12 minutos, Leqesai dijo:

I should clarify. I brought up toxicity not because I am saying you are toxic nor that you were saying anyone was toxic. This community can be very toxic when balance changes occur.

I am not toxic because I gave you examples of how this would affect x wf who are made of paper and at a high level they only survive with the shield gating which is a door to being able to activate vazarin do not sit back and tell me that I am toxic because I am not How will this part of the change affect x wf and he said it at high levels, not regular missions, which is why I have a wf that tanks. I'm also going to clarify that the mod was seen asking for 13 points.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

1) An immortality buff.

2) That was free because it didn't require a mod slot.

The key did not grant immortality, this is a common misconception that was probably caused by all the overhype around the key and all those clickbaity immortal lvl9999 build yt guide vids. All the key does is lower your maximum shields that is it, it doesnt magically make shield gating possible you can shield gate just as easily if not easier with stuff like pillage or condemn, it does not magically increase the shield gate invulnerability window literally the only thing it does is lower the threshold required to achieve a full shield gate which as Ive said earlier I see  as a very good thing as it opens a lot more build diversity.

 

28 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

But have already rejected the argument of the implementation being free (Using the DDK was free; it's a gear item and you have to remove/sacrifice nothing in exchange for its benefits).

And again there is there is no free benefits that you claim there are, the only possible benefit you can say there is that the threshold is lower while using the key but you still need to fully build around it to gain that benefit. And for the record you can use all gear items while sacrificing nothing on your builds apart from maybe crafting mats which is pratically nothing for a lot of players, your build struggling with energy well use an energy pads, want some extra completely free damage use an on call crew, your weapon struggling with ammo but dont want to run an ammo mutate use an ammo pad. That really is kinda the whole point of gear items dont you think, to have an extra tool without needing to sacrifice your builds for.

[----Legacy----]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The key did not grant immortality, this is a common misconception that was probably caused by all the overhype around the key and all those clickbaity immortal lvl9999 build yt guide vids. All the key does is lower your maximum shields that is it, it doesnt magically make shield gating possible you can shield gate just as easily if not easier with stuff like pillage or condemn, it does not magically increase the shield gate invulnerability window literally the only thing it does is lower the threshold required to achieve a full shield gate which as Ive said earlier I see  as a very good thing as it opens a lot more build diversity.

The key didn't grant immortality indeed, it just made pseudo immortality through shield gating far easier to achieve when mixed with augur mods and rolling guard.

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And again there is there is no free benefits that you claim there are, the only possible benefit you can say there is that the threshold is lower while using the key but you still need to fully build around it to gain that benefit. And for the record you can use all gear items while sacrificing nothing on your builds apart from maybe crafting mats which is pratically nothing for a lot of players, your build struggling with energy well use an energy pads, want some extra completely free damage use an on call crew, your weapon struggling with ammo but dont want to run an ammo mutate use an ammo pad. That really is kinda the whole point of gear items dont you think, to have an extra tool without needing to sacrifice your builds for.

This part of the argument falls flat when we keep in mind that Dragon keys are meant to open orokin vaults and debuff the player wielding them, not to make the player have an easier time resetting shield gate; that buff to player durability was just an oversight on DE's end from when shield gating was added and -like several other oversights that become apparent when a system is reworked- was allowed to stay for far too long, imo.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The key did not grant immortality, this is a common misconception that was probably caused by all the overhype around the key and all those clickbaity immortal lvl9999 build yt guide vids. All the key does is lower your maximum shields that is it, it doesnt magically make shield gating possible you can shield gate just as easily if not easier with stuff like pillage or condemn, it does not magically increase the shield gate invulnerability window literally the only thing it does is lower the threshold required to achieve a full shield gate which as Ive said earlier I see  as a very good thing as it opens a lot more build diversity.

Everyone is aware the key alone, on its own, does not and did not provide immortality on its own. It was, however, the main ingredient and key component required for it. Nothing else could take its place because nothing else allowed you to meet the threshold of shield gating as fast as it could.

Functionally it granted immortality even if it technically didn't on its own. That's arguing semantics at that point.

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And again there is there is no free benefits that you claim there are, the only possible benefit you can say there is that the threshold is lower while using the key but you still need to fully build around it to gain that benefit. And for the record you can use all gear items while sacrificing nothing on your builds apart from maybe crafting mats which is pratically nothing for a lot of players, your build struggling with energy well use an energy pads, want some extra completely free damage use an on call crew, your weapon struggling with ammo but dont want to run an ammo mutate use an ammo pad. That really is kinda the whole point of gear items dont you think, to have an extra tool without needing to sacrifice your builds for.

It is free.

Pillage has a delay between casting and when you get the shields. And if you didn't get enough shields (99% of your total shields) you didn't get the full benefits of shield gating. Condem is instantaneous, but unless you explicitly play as Harrow you are sacrificing using a different Helminth ability for the sake of your build.

You build to survive somehow. Building around health or armor or shield is your choice on paper, but only 1 of them allows you to tank hits not even Valkyr with 6K armor can handle with significantly less mod investment as the other ingredients already benefit your strength, range or duration on their own. 

You are already building the traits your WF needs. You lose nothing. You pay nothing. 

It is free.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

This part of the argument falls flat when we keep in mind that Dragon keys are meant to open orokin vaults and debuff the player wielding them, not to make the player have an easier time resetting shield gate; that buff to player durability was just an oversight on DE's end from when shield gating was added and -like several other oversights that become apparent when a system is reworked- was allowed to stay for far too long, imo.

By that logic nova should not be allowed to speed up enemies and DE shouldve fixed that iteration instead of made it a feature. If the whole argument is just "its supposed to be a debuff" than all other negative stat interactions we currently have such as speedva or neg impact rivs would also fall into that and thus should aso be fixed according to that logic.

 

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Pillage has a delay between casting and when you get the shields. And if you didn't get enough shields (99% of your total shields) you didn't get the full benefits of shield gating. Condem is instantaneous, but unless you explicitly play as Harrow you are sacrificing using a different Helminth ability for the sake of your build.

Yea and for the key you need to have the shield restoration such as brief respite or auger mods as well as have an ability with a cost high enough that you will get enough shield conversion to fully replenish those shields. It is in fact not free, theres so much more that goes into shield gating than just oh just equip the key that people dont seem to realize.

 

[FiveN9ne]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

You seem to think they want you to continue exploiting the shield gate mechanics. The mod slot cost of doing so is simply to acknowledge the abundance of players exploiting the previous system, as is implemented simply to quell some of the upheaval related to forum trolls spewing general toxicity related to the correction of unintended mechanics.

It is well measured.

Additionally, the new shield gate mechanics are generally better than the old. 

Just because you're clinging to an unintended interaction that exploited shield gating does not make correction of this behavior wrong. Be grateful you're getting ANYTHING out of this.

So they don't want us to exploit an unintended mechanic but they gave us a mod to do exactly that. Where is the logic in that?

Also, anyone who thinks these changes will do anything is silly. 50% dr instead of 25% is still nothing. The 2.5 gate for full shields does nothing because there is no way to regen those shields outside of Pillage, Condemn and Capacitance maybe. I also dare anyone to put 2 mods to reduce shield regen delay by 40% and increase recharge, it's a joke.

TL:DR

Absolutely nothing will change. Players who didn't gate and use decaying key will still play the same and barely feel the change.

Players who used gate will gimp their builds to slot in the new mod and keep gating like before.

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea and for the key you need to have the shield restoration such as brief respite or auger mods as well as have an ability with a cost high enough that you will get enough shield conversion to fully replenish those shields. It is in fact not free, theres so much more that goes into shield gating than just oh just equip the key that people dont seem to realize.

 

Please stop pretending people don't use the Augur mods for the strength, duration or range benefits by default. They contribute to the build first and then the DDK gives you functional immortality because of the energy use. The DDK costs you nothing and decreases how many shields you have to replenish by virtue of just casually casting the abilities you normally use (More so in nuke caster builds).

The DDK is free.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

22 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

So they don't want us to exploit an unintended mechanic but they gave us a mod to do exactly that. Where is the logic in that?

The unintended mechanic is not shield gating exploit. The unintended mechanic is that it was done via an external item that had not been updated to account for a new mechanic introduced to the game and becoming an outlier in its own category of items through no fault of its own.

I myself proposed that using a mod for this function was precisely the correct compromise because the problem is not the functional immortality, but rather using the DDK for it:

Quote

Correct. I would not have an issue about DE's intentionality if they introduced a mod with a text description that does exactly what the DDK does right now.

My problem is with the DDK itself. 

I also agree with you that full, sustained invulnerability is not good game design.

That's me over a  year ago.

Pretending the problem was the benefit instead of the cause is revisionist history at best, if not gaslighting at worst. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Jarriaga

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Please stop pretending people don't use the Augur mods for the strength, duration or range benefits by default. They contribute to the build first and then the DDK gives you functional immortality because of the energy use. The DDK costs you nothing and decreases how many shields you have to replenish by virtue of just casually casting the abilities you normally use (More so in nuke caster builds).

The DDK is free.

Auger mods do have the extra benefit but the stats they give are very small and often arent the optimal choice and theres usually much better mods to fit into that slot, especially now with molt arcanes and archon shards. Auger reach is the most useful one out of that bunch and an argument could be made for that one as there are currently far less sources of ability range. And even with 3 auger mods you would only get 60 shields back from a 50 energy cost ability which is not enough for a full shield gate for most frames with a key equipped. You could equip 2 more auger mods in your secondary but now youre taking up 5 total slots from you loadout to effectively shield gate and youre probably not getting much extra value from those mods aside from the gating because most of the time you dont want to build for more than 2 stats on a warframe. So no, not exactly what Id call free.

[TaraTSoni]

It is impossible to only survive with shield gating, it is free, it is always possible, not because at lvl cap and where it will affect more than anything, and in interruption there are energy debuffs or weapons with toxin shield gating and rolling guard is a door for the use of vazarin . You will not always use wf that has abilities that generate shield or the use of revenant, in addition to being aware of when to have it equipped or not because the dragon key is not for all warframes and also many builds are complex to use a mod that asks for 13 points

[FiveN9ne]

28 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The unintended mechanic is not shield gating exploit. The unintended mechanic is that it was done via an external item that had not been updated to account for a new mechanic introduced to the game and becoming an outlier in its own category of items through no fault of its own.

 

Shield gating with DDK = exploit

Identical shield gating with a mod = cool

Gotcha.

[Leqesai]

52 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

So they don't want us to exploit an unintended mechanic but they gave us a mod to do exactly that. Where is the logic in that?

Also, anyone who thinks these changes will do anything is silly. 50% dr instead of 25% is still nothing. The 2.5 gate for full shields does nothing because there is no way to regen those shields outside of Pillage, Condemn and Capacitance maybe. I also dare anyone to put 2 mods to reduce shield regen delay by 40% and increase recharge, it's a joke.

TL:DR

Absolutely nothing will change. Players who didn't gate and use decaying key will still play the same and barely feel the change.

Players who used gate will gimp their builds to slot in the new mod and keep gating like before.

The reason they're adding the mod is to quell the inevitable toxic response from players who are unwilling to change. It doesn't take many active brain cells to realize the new shield gate mechanics, even with the new mod, are more useful than the previous exploitation of the dragon keys.

 

1 hour ago, TaraTSoni said:

I am not toxic because I gave you examples of how this would affect x wf who are made of paper and at a high level they only survive with the shield gating which is a door to being able to activate vazarin do not sit back and tell me that I am toxic because I am not How will this part of the change affect x wf and he said it at high levels, not regular missions, which is why I have a wf that tanks. I'm also going to clarify that the mod was seen asking for 13 points.

For the second time. I am not saying you are toxic... I think you are maybe misunderstanding what I've told you.

[Zekkii]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

not exactly what Id call free

You're right to say this, but the opportunity cost is still negligible.  You lose out on an Aura slot for Brief Respite, which might be a big deal but Auras aren't that impactful.  You can then use two Augur mods on your pistol, which either is used as a primer or simply ignored for a primary or melee weapon.  That gives you 230% return on energy, which is 115 shield for a 50 energy ability and more than enough to fully refresh shield gates.

Most frames then have the option to equip two augur mods on the warframe to trigger it on 25 damage abilities.  The opportunity cost of this varies from nothing, since augur mods are often the best despite their slightly lower base stats, to losing out on 15% on a couple stats at worst.

[Jarriaga]

31 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

Shield gating with DDK = exploit

Identical shield gating with a mod = cool

Gotcha.

Correct. You're trading a full mod slot for the functionality, effectively becoming a trade-off that is not free.

I've been OK with that for a year.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Jarriaga

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

By that logic nova should not be allowed to speed up enemies and DE shouldve fixed that iteration instead of made it a feature. If the whole argument is just "its supposed to be a debuff" than all other negative stat interactions we currently have such as speedva or neg impact rivs would also fall into that and thus should aso be fixed according to that logic.

Are you really gonna fall back to false equivalences? On one hand you have an consumable item meant to debuff the player while equipped (it's not even being consumed, just equipping it is enough) and you're comparing that to a warframe power which messes enemy speed. 

Fun enough, DE mentioned speedva as a bug at some point, but they liked it and saw players enjoy it so decided to keep it a feature instead of fixing it (and also because an ability that slows down enemies where the slow scales with power strength speeding them up with negative strength kinda makes sense)

Negative impacr rivens are meant to reduce the impact damage dealt by a weapon; since weapon status chance works based on damage weighting, their use to increase slash procs is just a byproduct of how does the damage system work.

Don't try mixing apples with oranges and even less with toluene, the latter is unhealthy.

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea and for the key you need to have the shield restoration such as brief respite or auger mods as well as have an ability with a cost high enough that you will get enough shield conversion to fully replenish those shields. It is in fact not free, theres so much more that goes into shield gating than just oh just equip the key that people dont seem to realize

Equipping the key to reduce shields makes the threshold much easier to reset over and over again; the key isn't consumed after mission, doesn't use a mod nor aecane slot so yeah, it's just a free buff and you (player)decide to build around said free buff.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

31 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

You're right to say this, but the opportunity cost is still negligible.  You lose out on an Aura slot for Brief Respite, which might be a big deal but Auras aren't that impactful.  You can then use two Augur mods on your pistol, which either is used as a primer or simply ignored for a primary or melee weapon.  That gives you 230% return on energy, which is 115 shield for a 50 energy ability and more than enough to fully refresh shield gates.

Most frames then have the option to equip two augur mods on the warframe to trigger it on 25 damage abilities.  The opportunity cost of this varies from nothing, since augur mods are often the best despite their slightly lower base stats, to losing out on 15% on a couple stats at worst.

See I dont disagree that the cost is quite low mod wise, yea it makes 100% sense that a shield gate build would take less mods than a health tank build but thats not because of the key. If the key didnt exist the shield gate builds would be pretty much the exact same, you still wouldnt build for any extra shields or dr and you would still want a source of shield restoration, you would probably be locked into pillage or condemn tho or you would have to cast multiple abilities in quick succession but the builds would stay the same.

But then there theres the gameplay costs which is where shield gating builds would be much more "costly".  For shield gate build you have no dr whatsoever so you can die very easy if you make any mistake, you have to actively react to incoming damage so you can survive the next attack. With health tank builds its much more passive, in most cases you actually have a much larger window where you wont die than with shield gating, big difference between the 2 is that health tanking cant handle extremely high lvls and this is the biggest talking point I see get brought up. People say shield gating is too strong since it lets you survive enemies that normal health cant handle but never the other way round.

11 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Fun enough, DE mentioned speedva as a bug at some point, but they liked it and saw players enjoy it so decided to keep it a feature instead of fixing it (and also because an ability that slows down enemies where the slow scales with power strength speeding them up with negative strength kinda makes sense)

 

Hmm, so why is the key interaction any different?

 

11 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Negative impacr rivens are meant to reduce the impact damage dealt by a weapon; since weapon status chance works based on damage weighting, their use to increase slash procs is just a byproduct of how does the damage system work.

Oh you mean just like how since shield gate duration is only based on if your shields max or not, so it just happens lowering your maximum shields to get easier gates is just a byproduct of how shield gating works. Thank you for proving my point.

Edited October 2, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[----Legacy----]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Hmm, so why is the key interaction any different?

Idk, probably because -as mentioned before- players can set up its debuff, then buold around it to turn the same debuff into a free buff. 

Probably because shield gating was meant as a mechanic to buff shields and make them meaningful, but its current implementation rewards reducing shields with increased durability which is counterintuitive and goes against the reason why shield gating was added in the first place. 

11 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Oh you mean just like how since shield gate duration is only based on if your shields max or not, so it just happens lowering your maximum shields to get easier gates is just a byproduct of how shield gating works. Thank you for proving my point.

Your point is based around the current implementation of shield gates being flawed and rewarding the use of a debuff to have an easier time resetting gates, so yeah, i'm proving your point and how flawed it is.

Good thing DE is finally fixing this flaw.

[FiveN9ne]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

The reason they're adding the mod is to quell the inevitable toxic response from players who are unwilling to change. It doesn't take many active brain cells to realize the new shield gate mechanics, even with the new mod, are more useful than the previous exploitation of the dragon keys.

First of all, the new shield gate mechanics are not more useful, they are a nerf. This is objectively true. More effort for same result? Nerf.

Second of all, how would you know the reasoning behind DE adding the mod? Did you work with them on the update?

[Leqesai]

13 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

First of all, the new shield gate mechanics are not more useful, they are a nerf. This is objectively true. More effort for same result? Nerf.

Second of all, how would you know the reasoning behind DE adding the mod? Did you work with them on the update?

First of all, Not a "shield gate" nerf. You're simply incorrect.

Its only a nerf to a specific use situation of shield gate which was exploitive.

Second of all, they specifically said the use of emergent gameplay related to the dragon key was unintended. Having a modicum of common sense allows me to connect the dots. Especially when you look at the pattern of poor community response to past balance adjustments (like the recent ammo nerf and the cascade of negative reviews from disgruntled basement-dwellers). 

 

Its cool that you don't like the change. But you're mistaken if you honestly think scaling gate time (which ultimately makes for consistently longer partial break gate better, and full shield break better), shield regen reduction timeframe mods (which make partial gates more consistent) and a 100% increase in shield damage reduction is a nerf. 

Be grateful you're getting a mod that allows you to continue exploiting the small-shield mechanics. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Leqesai

[(NSW)warfare3376]

10 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Idk, probably because -as mentioned before- players can set up its debuff, then buold around it to turn the same debuff into a free buff. 

Again how is it any different? You have to build around the key and make sure you have enough shield restore for it to work, you then have to use an ability to activate the "buff" jus like with speeva needing to cast her 4 to speed up and debuff enemies.

 

14 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Probably because shield gating was meant as a mechanic to buff shields and make them meaningful, but its current implementation rewards reducing shields with increased durability which is counterintuitive and goes against the reason why shield gating was added in the first place. 

Reducing stats has always been a part of build crafting, its rewarding to have neg impact on a riv, its rewarding for nova to have neg duration so she can speed up enemies to kill them faster or for baruuk to have neg duration so he can spam lull more often to build restraint faster, its rewarding to use lower ranks of 60/60s, and its even rearding to use combat discipline specifically for the self damage downside to proc arcane avenger. Yet for whatever reason lowering your shields via the key is treated so differently.

As for shield gating meant to buff shields and make them meaningful well thats not entirely true. Shield gating was added to prevent one hits to specifically buff shields, thats what the 25% dr addition was for. Now is the gate mechanic the way it was implemented is counterintuitive to the 25% dr buff shields got at the same time, yea kinda but I guarantee if shield gating was not added and it was only the dr buff there would still be nobody actually increasing their shield values past the base amount granted nobody would be intentionally lowering their shields either. Dr that is not 100% means absolutely nothing in higher lvls so in truth 25% dr buff and even the 50% from the update might as well not exist, the new buff will be nice for casual play but you wont even notice it at high lvls. The reason people arent building for shields isnt because shield gating is just better, its because building for more shields literally does nothing at all so the only option left is to build for the one that gives 100% dr. With the way shield gating works this is actually the most build interactivity we have ever had for shields specifically yet for whatever reason wernt happy with it.

47 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Your point is based around the current implementation of shield gates being flawed and rewarding the use of a debuff to have an easier time resetting gates, so yeah, i'm proving your point and how flawed it is.

So wouldnt the damage system also be flawed because its more rewarding to reduce/remove impact damage from your weapons? Wouldnt anything that rewards using negative stats for a benefit also be flawed by this logic? This is exactly why I hate this argument so much, its such a double standard.

[FiveN9ne]

28 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

First of all, Not a "shield gate" nerf. You're simply incorrect.

Its only a nerf to a specific use situation of shield gate which was exploitive.

Second of all, they specifically said the use of emergent gameplay related to the dragon key was unintended. Having a modicum of common sense allows me to connect the dots. Especially when you look at the pattern of poor community response to past balance adjustments (like the recent ammo nerf and the cascade of negative reviews from disgruntled basement-dwellers). 

 

Its cool that you don't like the change. But you're mistaken if you honestly think scaling gate time (which ultimately makes for consistently longer partial break gate better, and full shield break better), shield regen reduction timeframe mods (which make partial gates more consistent) and a 100% increase in shield damage reduction is a nerf. 

Be grateful you're getting a mod that allows you to continue exploiting the small-shield mechanics. 

Funny how it became exploitive at the moment they released the update info and the new mod, but they were all good with it up until then. I also like how you call people who criticize them "disgruntled basement dwellers" as if those people don't have tenfold more knowledge about this game than DE themselves. Keep white knighting tho.

[Leqesai]

30 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

Funny how it became exploitive at the moment they released the update info and the new mod, but they were all good with it up until then. I also like how you call people who criticize them "disgruntled basement dwellers" as if those people don't have tenfold more knowledge about this game than DE themselves. Keep white knighting tho.

Well, on that note I bid you adieu.

Have a good day.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Leqesai

[Zekkii]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

For shield gate build you have no dr whatsoever so you can die very easy if you make any mistake, you have to actively react to incoming damage so you can survive the next attack. With health tank builds its much more passive, in most cases you actually have a much larger window where you wont die than with shield gating, big difference between the 2 is that health tanking cant handle extremely high lvls and this is the biggest talking point I see get brought up. People say shield gating is too strong since it lets you survive enemies that normal health cant handle but never the other way round.

You're 100% right.  A big reason why shield gating is unpopular is because it's incredibly annoying and tedious to use, but simultaneously the most powerful option for many frames and content.