Recording my pre- and post-rework stat changes

[Qriist]

On 2023-10-17 at 3:29 PM, Qriist said:

All stats updated!

So, main takeaways.
 

• Almost everything got a slight buff of a few dozen to a few hundred EHP.
• Citrine gained a whopping 1 HP lol.
• A select few frames got much larger armor buffs and that's reflected in their correspondingly sizeable additional EHP.
• Excalibur Umbra and Saryn actually lost some EHP due to the nerfs to the Umbral set.
• Kullervo also uses full Umbral but he still came out ahead due to his more massive base stat increase.
• Most doggo versions experienced the same up and down in stats.
• Kullervo's doggo has an EHP of 1.5 million while Reflex Denial is online. Probably even more thanks to K's Warcry. :D

On the whole, this was a decent incremental buff across the board. A few major outliers (and a headscratching nerf to the Umbral set), but seems pretty balanced. 

 

Spoiler

seriously wtf lmao

we be done, yo

 

 

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Ervin's actually correct here. EHP is "effective hit points" which is "how many points of damage an enemy has to hit you with to kill you". As damage has to deplete your shields before it can deplete your health, shields are part of the formula. EHP formulae omit things that are finite duration with no assignable "capacity" value, like Warframe's shield gate, of course. The only exception to this is toxin damage, which has its own formula (two of them in fact, one for Hildryn and one for everyone else).

I disagree. Anything that wholly prevents damage and "gates" creates a dividing line between EHP and not-EHP. The time delta  where you're invincible matters.

Shields used to be useful in EHP calculations, then they gained a gate. Same with Overguard.

Protection abilities like Citrine's Preserving Shell and mods like Adaptation are useful in EHP calculations because they still pass some mitigated amount of damage to your HP.

Rhino's Iron Skin used to be useful in EHP because the pre-Overguard armor didn't gate.

Nezha's Warding Halo is useful in EHP calculations despite having a gate because of the consistent 90% DR on the vast majority of the skill's uptime.

So on and so forth.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Qriist

[Aruquae]

13 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Wouldn't even have noticed the loss of energy, since the build I use doesn't really consume any energy. Ulfrun's Endurance is great.

That was pre update. They seemed to have given Voruna an extra 2 energy instead. Now it’s 427, triggering really not ending in 5. My OCD can barely handle it

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2023-10-18 at 5:36 AM, Qriist said:

Shield is not HP. HP is HP. EHP is armor-applied HP.

I've seen the term EHP used to apply just to health and armor, and I've also seen it used to apply to health, armor, shields, etc.  In my subjective experience, I've seen the latter more frequently, but that's anecdotal.

Regardless, a semantic debate gets us nowhere.  Words are made-up.  Video games are made-up.  The only real issue is whether we are effectively communicating.

And with that in mind, I'll say this: I think this analysis of frame numbers is incomplete without shields.  It's particularly conspicuous on Hildryn — whose summary is woefully inadequate with a version of Effective Health that lacks shields — but all units with shields are affected.  Especially since shields were buffed from 25% to 50% migitation with this update.

There is still value in calculating what a frame's Effective Health is without shields, because there are specific contexts where that information matters.  But if we're actually intending to talk about the topic of overall frame durability (which seems to be the intention here, otherwise why calculate EHP at all?) then it seems detrimental to leave out shields, as that results in our conclusion being less accurate.

 

21 hours ago, Qriist said:

I disagree. Anything that wholly prevents damage and "gates" creates a dividing line between EHP and not-EHP. The time delta  where you're invincible matters.

Shields used to be useful in EHP calculations, then they gained a gate. Same with Overguard.

I agree with the arguments you are presenting but disagree with your conclusion.  Gates are part of determining survival.  These have an impact.  However, I disagree with the idea that because gates exist, that means that our calculation of EHP should become less accurate and thus less useful.

EHP that includes shields is not perfect because it doesn't include things like gate time.  But EHP that doesn't include shields is even less accurate because not only does it not include gate time, but it also doesn't include shields.  Thus, EHP that includes shields is a better estimation of a frame's raw survivability, and hence regardless of what we call that term semantically, I think that number is the one that has more value generally speaking.

Edited October 19, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
added follow-up quote response, typo

[SneakyErvin]

On 2023-10-18 at 5:32 PM, Qriist said:

EHP ∞ / ∞

That effectively applies to all frames but those without shields if someone reasons like you do regarding EHP.

On 2023-10-19 at 1:37 AM, Qriist said:

Shields used to be useful in EHP calculations, then they gained a gate. Same with Overguard.

They are still just as useful. As I mentioned, there is a massive difference in TTL between someone having 10 shields or 5000 shields, both being EHP values tied to the shield part of a frame. It all adds to how many hits a frame can take, and now with the scaling gate it is even more important since more shields both increase the time it takes to bring them to zero and they decide how long you have to react before things start hitting your non-gated health. Which in return results in more time to get back to a higher EHP value pre-gate before the next hit lands on you.

On 2023-10-19 at 1:37 AM, Qriist said:

Nezha's Warding Halo is useful in EHP calculations despite having a gate because of the consistent 90% DR on the vast majority of the skill's uptime.

It is no different than Iron Skin. It has no magical 90% DR, it is just that the Halo soaks up 90% of incoming damage as opposed to Iron Skin that prevents 100% damage. Both also result in the same when they run out, an invulnerability window. So if your Halo is 10000 it adds 10000 EHP, not more, not less. So why you find Halo appropriate as a useful EHP addition is hilarious to say the least when you dont treat shields, Iron Skin and Overguard the same way, all resulting in the exact same as Halo, but with no risk for bugs since neither allows bleed through because they soak up 100% and not just 90% damage at all times no matter if you have 1 point left or they are full.

[Aruquae]

16 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I agree with the arguments you are presenting but disagree with your conclusion.  Gates are part of determining survival.  These have an impact.  However, I disagree with the idea that because gates exist, that means that our calculation of EHP should become less accurate and thus less useful.

Gates are unreliable imo

Like a condition in an experiment, that has to be fulfilled in order to matter. EHP counting Shields, health, and armor makes sense because EHP is the amount of hit points you can have/amount of damage you can take before dying. Shield gate would be a condition due to it’s scaling which isn’t reliable in an EHP calculation, but it’s like a condition such as gloom. (Sounded confusing?) If we were just talking about hitpoints, (such as just standing there tanking) and we were using the most BASIC stats (not including DR like Baruuk, or health regen) then shieldgate wouldn’t matter. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Malikili said:

If we were just talking about hitpoints, (such as just standing there tanking) and we were using the most BASIC stats (not including DR like Baruuk, or health regen) then shieldgate wouldn’t matter. 

Exactly. And that is really what EHP currently is ment to show in WF since the gate was introduced. Earlier EHP was simply how much you could take before getting 1HKed, now it is everything combined since no frame (well aside from 2) can get 1-shot.

And this is why all the stats are important for EHP, since just using HP massively scews things on paper, because suddenly Inaros looks like a monster even though he can actually get 1-shot. And at the same time a frame like Hildryn, Harrow or Rhino look far weaker since several stages are ignored by ignoring anything on the intact side of the gate.

[Qriist]

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is no different than Iron Skin. It has no magical 90% DR, it is just that the Halo soaks up 90% of incoming damage as opposed to Iron Skin that prevents 100% damage.

Read that again, but slowly this time.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Qriist said:

Read that again, but slowly this time.

I dont think you get how Halo works.

Iron Skin absorbs 100% of the damage dealt aslong as there is any amount left. Halo removes up to 90% of the damage dealt (depending on Halo HP left), which instead removes Halo health, the other 10% passes through onto shields/health, which can kill you for that matter. Not to mention that alot of negative effects ignore Halo and directly target your health or drain you. So I dont see how you think the skill has value in a EHP calculation when Iron Skin or shields doesnt.

10000 Iron Skin = +10000 EHP

10000 Halo = +10000 EHP

Which is also why people have asked for Halo to just be turned into Overguard, since it would remove the bugs tied to it, give it protection against things it currently doesnt protect and benefit from a longer invulnerabilty as it breaks. The trade off would be that Nezha no longer can benefit from Rage/Hunter Adrenaline. But that shouldnt be an issue since Equilibrium exsists and syncs well with his kit.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Qriist]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think you get how Halo works.

mb, u rite

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Halo removes up to 90% of the damage dealt (depending on Halo HP left)

Not "upto" 90%, exactly 90%.

 

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

which instead removes Halo health

Nobody cares about the Halo health. It's irrelavant.

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

the other 10% passes through onto shields/health

So it's providing 90% damage reduction? Wow, that's awesome!

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not to mention that alot of negative effects ignore Halo and directly target your health or drain you.

I don't think you get how Halo works. You are immune to all negative statuses while under an active Halo, including knockdown effects. Toxin doesn't bypass Warding Halo but the 10% that isn't absorbed still bypasses your shields as normal.

 

 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So I dont see how you think the skill has value in a EHP calculation when Iron Skin or shields doesnt.

Because Warding Halo's gating behavior doesn't define when damage can apply to Nezha's HP. Iron Skin does. Simple as.

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is also why people have asked for Halo to just be turned into Overguard, since it would remove the bugs tied to it, give it protection against things it currently doesnt protect and benefit from a longer invulnerabilty as it breaks.

I am not among those people. I prefer the current behavior of Warding Halo.

That said, there's no reason to expect merely changing Warding Halo to Overguard would eliminate the single ACTUAL bug that you didn't mention:

 

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

The trade off would be that Nezha no longer can benefit from Rage/Hunter Adrenaline. But that shouldnt be an issue since Equilibrium exsists and syncs well with his kit.

I use both together. Checkmate.

 

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Qriist said:

Not "upto" 90%, exactly 90%.

No it is very much up to 90%. If you have 10000 Halo and take 5000 damage in a hit, then 4500 is absorbed by Halo, letting 500 pass through. If you have 500 Halo and you take 5000 damage in a hit, then 4500 damage will pass through to your shields/health. Which is a problem in the skill design itself since the order of calculations seem off. Which results in the bug Nezha suffers from, since it never allows the Halo gate to trigger, which can also screw up the shield gate activation.

People have a misconception that the bug is in the absorbtion, which it isnt, it is in the actual gate. Damage should in reality be fully soaked up by the last hit since the Halo gate should at that point trigger before shields or health are ever affected. 

22 hours ago, Qriist said:

Because Warding Halo's gating behavior doesn't define when damage can apply to Nezha's HP. Iron Skin does. Simple as.

That does not matter at all when you calculate EHP. Anything that adds to your TTL and can be shown by a concrete "health" number should be added to the calculation. Only things that are pure invulnerabilites should be ignored, like Mesmer Skin, that removes a full hit per stack no matter the size of the damage. On the other hand you can rely on 15 Mesmer Stacks to increase your TTL by 15-ish seconds.

22 hours ago, Qriist said:

I am not among those people. I prefer the current behavior of Warding Halo.

That said, there's no reason to expect merely changing Warding Halo to Overguard would eliminate the single ACTUAL bug that you didn't mention:

So you like random death due to unrealiable mechanics?

Of course it would eliminate the bugs, since you'd have a skill that works like Iron Skin, Icy Avalanche and other Overguard options where it absorbs 100% of a hit and if there isnt enough to absorb 100% of the hit OG is removed and replaced by a 1.5 second long invulnerability. Which would also remove things like accidental deaths through Toxic Ancient slaps since 10% (or more) of their damage would no longer directly hit health, and energy drains from Disruptor effects would also get blocked and not just magnetic status.