Abyss of Dagath: Hotfix 34.0.6

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

3 hours ago, Kaziroh said:

And here I am again asking for reverting changes you done to Reinforced Bond. The speed bonus is something melee needs badly and was much appreciated. So again reconsider that changes and make Reinforced Bond as it was. Make melee great again

Honestly, it would make more sense if the attack speed was added to Tandem Bond. That would synergize well with the more melee focused nature of it. 

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

3 hours ago, Kaziroh said:

And here I am again asking for reverting changes you done to Reinforced Bond. The speed bonus is something melee needs badly and was much appreciated. So again reconsider that changes and make Reinforced Bond as it was. Make melee great again

Honestly, it would make more sense if the attack speed was added to Tandem Bond. That would synergize well with the more melee focused nature of it. 

[Hexerin]

9 minutes ago, Box-O-Soldier said:

Man, this is a mess and a half, isn't it? I recall seeing like 14-15 million(!) hits here and there, which also added to my confusiuon about the whole thing from earlier. So if I'm getting this right, Voruna sometimes rolls the dice on whether or not her hit will do the full damage(?).

Great, from one headache to another, but I sure do appreciate someone willing to explain this mess to me. Sure wish the damage would be adequate to what the calculations show...

Nah, the damage being dealt is consistent. To be completely sure, I just tested against a few different armor-less enemy types (since getting heat procs would skew the results on armor due to how heat works). Did several attack cycles on each enemy, and they all took the same damage every time.

[Box-O-Soldier]

13 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Nah, the damage being dealt is consistent. To be completely sure, I just tested against a few different armor-less enemy types (since getting heat procs would skew the results on armor due to how heat works). Did several attack cycles on each enemy, and they all took the same damage every time.

Right, so the only issue is the impact on the initial hit being overall weaker than it should be, corect? And it was supposedly like this since she dropped? That's quite odd.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

There needs to be a line driven on what CC should Overguard prevent at this point.

Oh, but there is one!

DE, Eximus Reborn: "While Overguard is active, it will keep Eximus units immune to Warframe crowd control abilities and anything that will stagger, knockdown, stun, mind control, ragdoll, and blind."

WF players:

[IcarusRTS]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

Oh, but there is one!

DE, Eximus Reborn: "While Overguard is active, it will keep Eximus units immune to Warframe crowd control abilities and anything that will stagger, knockdown, stun, mind control, ragdoll, and blind."

WF players:

Current CC abilties that affect them one way or another say otherwise (my first post already covers some of them). At least DE could make the game consider player amount in SP when determining Eximus spawn rates. Right now efficent way to farm SP Circuit is to go one long run to get the 10 rewards (either for Incarnon Adapters, Riven Mods or Kuva you picked) and current SP Eximus spawn rate treats your SP sessions as if you have a full squad when playing even Solo.

[Kur0N11]

So no major fix for unlimited Void Blast bug? It has become a bother everytime switching into Operator mode when triggering Last Gasp. I think it's Auto Melee codes.

[crazywolfpusher]

Bug: It seems like the perk Lethal Levitation from the Naramon school is not applying the weapon damage bonus to Warframe weapons. Tested it with Skana Prisma unmodded.

 

Spoiler

I know this is not the place but maybe Naramon could get some little buffs in the process? With the recent changes to Shield Gating Vazarin got stronger (Guardian Break got the value of 2 mods, Fast Deflection+Vigilante Vigor). Naramon only perk that's worth considering is Power Spike, everything else offer very little value for Melee offensive.

These changes could help a lot some close combat frames.

Opening Slam Replace it to apply Stagger on 8m radius on transfer. Little cc might result very handy by opening a small window to engage in close combat..

Killer Rush 50 % crit chance replace it with +15% parkour velocity and 30% Attack speed.  Value of 2 cheap mods, same as Vazarin. Open some space for warframe and weapon modding.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by crazywolfpusher

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

Current CC abilties that affect them one way or another say otherwise (my first post already covers some of them).

Yes, yes. 

I'm just having a bit of fun with DE here.

 

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

At least DE could make the game consider player amount in SP when determining Eximus spawn rates.

A reduction for solo in SP?  I can understand why some would feel that way, but I'd hate it.  That's how I spend most of my time, and I'm pretty happy with eximus spawns there.  If anything,  dialed up a bit more would be ok--I really enjoy eximus stronghold sorties, the SP Abyssal Zone clears, and the occasional odd SP map that goes nuts with spawn rates.

 

[Berzerkules]

11 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

 

• Fixed enemies with Overguard being pulled by Magus Anomaly. 

  • Enemies with Overguard are immune to crowd control abilities/effects, and should not be affected by Magus Anomaly until after Overguard has been removed. 

If we can't crowd control key priority targets just get rid of all crowd control in the game already and let DPS meta reign supreme. Or maybe let us have some fun again.

Guess I'll just drop this 2.5 year old bug here too

 

[CONPEEEE]

Hello, I am a Japanese player. I'm sorry if my English is incorrect.

Regarding Voruna's buff when dispelling invisibility, it seems that the buff is not activated when using the fourth ability. If invisibility is temporarily dispelled, it would be natural for the buff to activate. In this case, I think 34.0.5 was more compatible. I hope this will be fixed in the next patch.

Thank you.

[Obnyr]

Tell me this will be fixed in the next big update please, have been asking for months...

 

[Bossman252621]

8 hours ago, Hexerin said:

The AoE bleed isn't slash proc, it's slash damage. This means it's using slash damage modifiers, which not only makes it take a penalty against armor, it's also reduced by armor DR. The room wiping you remember seeing is from Fangs of Raksh rolling slash as one of its five RNG procs, which then got spread when you killed the target. The slash stack generated by Fangs of Raksh inherits the slash proc from Ulfrun's Descent, which is then averaged and all 10 slash procs that get spread do that average. It's pretty obviously a bugged interaction, but it's how she's worked since she released.

That being said, I've done some further testing, and it turns out we are both wrong here. Voruna is just simply not doing the damage she should be doing:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

These two images show the before and after of the same strike. The before shows the enemy and debuffs applied, the after shows the direct damage and the bleed AoE damage. Bear in mind, I'm using both Shroud of Dynar and Fangs of Raskh on this, for maximum effect.

Here, have some math:

All said and done, 19,514,691 is what the impact should have dealt. Instead, I got 10,543,056 on it. That's only ~54% of the damage it should've dealt. Considering my actual damage hasn't changed (as I've mentioned repeatedly), this means that Voruna has been dealing incorrect damage since Ulfrun's Endurance dropped at the very latest (I picked her up after the augment dropped).

You seem to have made a couple mistakes in your calculations. You hit the enemy's health for 10,543,056 damage, but you dealt 2,036,239 damage to their shields first, for a total of 12,579,295.

Additionally, the viral staus effect only applies to damage dealt to health, which means it shouldn't be applied until after you've removed the damage absorbed by the shields. This means you'd end up with a calculation like this:

(2 × (5000 × 2.74) (1.5 + 0.1 × 10 + 2 × 10) - 2036239) (1 + 3.25) = 10,860,675.25 expected damage to health 

This results in a much closer calculated expected damage than it may have at first seemed. Of course, this doesn't take slash's damage tyoe modifier against flesh (which I assume is this enemy's health type) into account, but it also doesn't take shield gating into consideration either (I have no idea whether that affects ability damage anyway).

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, Bossman252621 said:

You seem to have made a couple mistakes in your calculations. You hit the enemy's health for 10,543,056 damage, but you dealt 2,036,239 damage to their shields first, for a total of 12,579,295.

Additionally, the viral staus effect only applies to damage dealt to health, which means it shouldn't be applied until after you've removed the damage absorbed by the shields. This means you'd end up with a calculation like this:

(2 × (5000 × 2.74) (1.5 + 0.1 × 10 + 2 × 10) - 2036239) (1 + 3.25) = 10,860,675.25 expected damage to health 

This results in a much closer calculated expected damage than it may have at first seemed. Of course, this doesn't take slash's damage tyoe modifier against flesh (which I assume is this enemy's health type) into account, but it also doesn't take shield gating into consideration either (I have no idea whether that affects ability damage anyway).

Some things:

The 2,036,239 isn't damage to shields, it's the bleed AoE that is attached to her ability. Notice that it's the default blue of ability damage, and that it's ~20% of the main hit's damage (which is in line with the base values on Ulfrun's Descent - 5,000 direct hit and 1,000 bleed AoE).

Your damage formula has nothing to do with Ulfrun's Descent, I have no idea what you're trying to calculate but it has nothing to do with this topic of conversation.

The enemy shield gate doesn't affect single instance damage. It's also extremely weak against anything it could apply to, as it only lasts 0.1 second.

[IcarusRTS]

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

A reduction for solo in SP?  I can understand why some would feel that way, but I'd hate it.  That's how I spend most of my time, and I'm pretty happy with eximus spawns there.  If anything,  dialed up a bit more would be ok--I really enjoy eximus stronghold sorties, the SP Abyssal Zone clears, and the occasional odd SP map that goes nuts with spawn rates.

It would help frames that rely on CC to survive a lot though. Frames like Limbo, Vauban etc. Right now these frames have to spam immunity frames (Shield Gating and Rolling Guard) just to survive vs high eximus spawn rates in Steel Path Circuit (which efficent way to grind it is to play one long run by the way). Eximuses should be treated the same way they are in regular Starchart, as mini-boss high priority targets when you play Solo. This would make it actually reasonable for DE to slowly nerf CC that affects enemies with Overguard.

Edited October 31, 2023 by IcarusRTS

[Hexerin]

5 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

It would help frames that rely on CC to survive a lot though. Frames like Limbo, Vauban etc. Right now these frames have to spam immunity frames (Shield Gating and Rolling Guard) just to survive vs high eximus spawn rates in Steel Path. Eximuses should be treated the same way they are in regular Starchart, as mini-boss high priority targets when you play Solo. This would make it actually reasonable for DE to slowly nerf CC that affects enemies with Overguard.

Nah, many builds rely on Eximus density (more = better) to provide necessary resources to maintain their costs and progress. Reducing spawns screws over those players instead, resulting in no net gain overall. It'd be better to change the foundational design of overguard, and remove total CC immunity from it. Instead, having it reduce CC duration by half, like special enemies and bosses do. In the case of persistent CC (Limbo's Stasis, for example) where duration can't be halved (because there's no duration), specialized rules are used instead (in the Stasis example, have it impose a 50% total action slow to Eximus while they're affected).

[IcarusRTS]

8 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Nah, many builds rely on Eximus density (more = better) to provide necessary resources to maintain their costs and progress. Reducing spawns screws over those players instead, resulting in no net gain overall. It'd be better to change the foundational design of overguard, and remove total CC immunity from it. Instead, having it reduce CC duration by half, like special enemies and bosses do. In the case of persistent CC (Limbo's Stasis, for example) where duration can't be halved (because there's no duration), specialized rules are used instead (in the Stasis example, have it impose a 50% total action slow to Eximus while they're affected).

And you are being too optimistic in this topic. The latter you propose is unlikely ever since Magus Anomaly, a grouping tool that didn't disable enemies let alone ones with overguard to begin with got nerfed. Who's to say Breach Surge, Muzzle Flash (aka CC that isn't intended to work versus Eximus) and even ones that fall under similar category as Anomaly like Banish is next ? DE has to rework eximus spawn rate in that case if they really want to make Overguard immune to all CC.

And based on what you say, those builds need to adapt. As Mercy Kills still work on heavy units that don't have Overguard (Ancient Healer, Heavy Gunner, Nullifier etc) and Parazon happens to be able to equip a mod named Blood for Energy which in turn increases the amount of orbs that can trigger Arcane Energize. Even if you don't own Energize, you are most likely using Nourish to boost energy amount you get per Orb or energy regen. Mercy Kill Threshold can be increased by using Impact proccing weapons and Swift Mercy mod for Parazon makes mercy kills faster. So it sounds to me more of a case of most of the playerbase refusing to use the tools thats clearly there again.

[Hexerin]

8 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

And you are being too optimistic in this topic. The latter you propose is unlikely ever since Magus Anomaly, a grouping tool that didn't disable enemies let alone ones with overguard to begin with got nerfed. Who's to say Breach Surge, Muzzle Flash (aka CC that isn't intended to work versus Eximus) and even ones that fall under similar category as Anomaly like Banish is next ? DE has to rework eximus spawn rate in that case if they really want to make Overguard immune to all CC.

And based on what you say, those builds need to adapt. As Mercy Kills still work on heavy units that don't have Overguard (Ancient Healer, Heavy Gunner, Nullifier etc) and Parazon happens to be able to equip a mod named Blood for Energy which in turn increases the amount of orbs that can trigger Arcane Energize. Even if you don't own Energize, you are most likely using Nourish to boost energy amount you get per Orb or energy regen. Mercy Kill Threshold can be increased by using Impact proccing weapons and Swift Mercy mod for Parazon makes mercy kills faster. So it sounds to me more of a case of most of the playerbase refusing to use the tools thats clearly there again.

"Screw you guys, give me what I personally want." is not the great take you think it is.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Hexerin

[Arbitrary]

14 hours ago, Hexerin said:

These two images show the before and after of the same strike. The before shows the enemy and debuffs applied, the after shows the direct damage and the bleed AoE damage. Bear in mind, I'm using both Shroud of Dynar and Fangs of Raskh on this, for maximum effect.

Here, have some math:

All said and done, 19,514,691 is what the impact should have dealt. Instead, I got 10,543,056 on it. That's only ~54% of the damage it should've dealt. Considering my actual damage hasn't changed (as I've mentioned repeatedly), this means that Voruna has been dealing incorrect damage since Ulfrun's Endurance dropped at the very latest (I picked her up after the augment dropped).

Your calculation is wrong. The direct kill bonuses are not x10 maxed out.
The bonus damage from Ulfrun's Descent maxes out at +900%, not 2 x 10 = +2000%
The bonus Crit Damage from Ulfrun's Descent maxes out at +0.45, not 0.1 x 10 = +1.

The correct calculation looks more like this:

(Base ability damage x Strength) x (Base CD + CD from kills + Shroud Of Dynar x Strength) x (1 + Bonus damage from kills) x (1 + damage bonus if status) x (1 + viral damage bonus) x (slash damage multiplier against flesh).

Another note is that damage that breaks shields is not represented properly. That Corrupted Crewman has at most 61,660 shield undamaged (less since you've already done ~10k damage it), not 2,000,000+. So don't use the sum of shield and health damage, as it is not representative of actual damage done.

If you subtract the max shield value from the damage before you apply the viral damage bonus and slash damage multiplier to flesh, you get that the health damage should be:

Which is close enough to the value you have (error is ~0.5%, which is more than acceptable).

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

The 2,036,239 isn't damage to shields, it's the bleed AoE that is attached to her ability. Notice that it's the default blue of ability damage,

All ability damage to shields is blue. Default ability damage color is also purple, not blue. The damage is far too high to be the AoE. The AoE isn't affected by the damage bonus from direct kills, so it'll do at best

damage to shields.

Edited October 31, 2023 by WisdomABlessing

[IcarusRTS]

33 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

"Screw you guys, give me what I personally want." is not the great take you think it is.

You know what else isn't a great take ? Majority of the playerbase thinking that CC is irrevelant, Magus Anomaly getting nerfed simply strengthens that idea. Either DE needs to draw a line on what CC should affect Overguard and what shouldn't or make Eximus spawn rates consider the player amount in Steel Path if they really wanna nerf all CC that "unintentionally" affects Overguard. There isn't another way around it and you know it.

Edited October 31, 2023 by IcarusRTS

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

It would help frames that rely on CC to survive a lot though. Frames like Limbo, Vauban etc. Right now these frames have to spam immunity frames (Shield Gating and Rolling Guard) just to survive vs high eximus spawn rates in Steel Path Circuit (which efficent way to grind it is to play one long run by the way). Eximuses should be treated the same way they are in regular Starchart, as mini-boss high priority targets when you play Solo. This would make it actually reasonable for DE to slowly nerf CC that affects enemies with Overguard.

Like I said, I understand the sentiment.  And I might feel the same way if my most used frames weren't Banshee, Nezha, Loki, and Kullervo and were more purely CC focused.   But it's not only because I'm selfish that I don't want solo SP eximus spawns nerfed.  Because it would only apply to solo SP  it's a band-aid, not a remedy. 

As I've said elsewhere in the thread, the thing I totally support is giving CC abilities some lesser effect on Overguard-protected units.  There are a variety of ways to do this, but one of the models already exists in game and predated Overguard: the slow on Bastille and Tornado, that only takes effect on units immune to their main CC.

DE should of course also update their documented  reasoning on what CCs affect units through Overguard, and start working on the exceptions.  Or at least explain why they're better off as exceptions.

[IcarusRTS]

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

 But it's not only because I'm selfish that I don't want solo SP eximus spawns nerfed.  Because it would only apply to solo SP  it's a band-aid, not a remedy. 

It wouldn't JUST apply to Solo SP. You would see more eximus units the more players you have in the squad, just like how it works for regular starchart. You would ONLY SEE current eximus spawns when you have a full squad.

Edited October 31, 2023 by IcarusRTS

[Tiltskillet]

9 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

It wouldn't JUST apply to Solo SP. You would see more eximus units the more players you have in the squad, just like how it works for regular starchart. You would ONLY SEE current eximus spawns when you have a full squad.

Ok, that's much better.   Better even than that would be addressing the problem directly though.

[Hexerin]

31 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Better even than that would be addressing the problem directly though.

Quoting for emphasis, as the only true solution is the one that doesn't just shift the pain from one group of players to another group (like what Icarus seems hell-bent on doing).

[robertobear]

 

43 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

It wouldn't JUST apply to Solo SP. You would see more eximus units the more players you have in the squad, just like how it works for regular starchart. You would ONLY SEE current eximus spawns when you have a full squad.

I was thinking about responding about this point, and the fact you mentioned it further encouraged me to do so. Why not just revert the general spawn rate to that of star chart instead of specifically eximi? It would allow more builds in solo play due to the generally reduced threats and easier non-AOE clears, and the only cost would be the overall reduction of resources.(which as you said, could be offset by the usage of more resource generation anyways). This change feels rather arbitrary, or at the very least a band-aid to a much greater issue(as mentioned before). Personally I hate the overall reduced spawn rate in star chart as well, but it's for similarly selfish reasoning that's been mentioned already.(at least I can accept the reasoning that star chart is generally made for low level players. most people actively doing steel path have the resources to build for it)

10 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

It would help frames that rely on CC to survive a lot though. Frames like Limbo, Vauban etc. Right now these frames have to spam immunity frames (Shield Gating and Rolling Guard) just to survive vs high eximus spawn rates in Steel Path Circuit (which efficent way to grind it is to play one long run by the way). Eximuses should be treated the same way they are in regular Starchart, as mini-boss high priority targets when you play Solo. This would make it actually reasonable for DE to slowly nerf CC that affects enemies with Overguard.

Which kind of brings me to my point. I don't think CC should such an essential form of survivability for warframes in the first place. It has a similar problem with immunity mechanics in that makes gameplay particularly flat. this is especially the case for one button hard CC frames like ones you mention.(honestly I kind of hate hard CC in general with how easy it is to have functionally infinite energy, but the concept of resource creep is it's own subject). Saying this as a person who enjoys more generalist frames(including hydroid, which still leans heavily into the CC frame aspect instead), the difference between 10 normal enemies and 1 eximi, and 10 CC'd enemies and one eximi is huge, and that still applies when scaled up. Hydroid can generally health tank eximi thanks to his high armor potiential with Plunder.(until scaling of endless missions apply at least). If a frame can't survive eximi because they rely on CC too much, that sounds more like the frame has a generally outdated kit then CC being too weak.(insert tangent about "it's not that CC is weak, it's that damage is too strong" here). Ironically old warframes slowly getting reworks to be relevant to the current meta seems more likely then either solution mentioned, considering it's already happening to a degree.(for the record I'd also prefer a rework of how CC and CC immunity works overall)