Thermal Sunder Needs More Work

[Seele]

I was ecstatic to see the changes to subsumed Thermal Sunder in the patch notes. It seemed like a very good and balanced approach that would limit Garuda and Harrow's ability to instantly vaporize the highest level, most thickly armored enemies in the game without punishing Gauss himself, who was relatively blameless. However, the change did not fully solve the issue and in fact may have, bizarrely, exacerbated it.

I currently live in Japan, so I primarily matchmake with other accounts in southeast Asia. Unfortunately a sizable number of them appear to be bots. Their usernames are unintelligible strings of characters and they either spam Thermal Sunder through every mission or do something else that is suspiciously easy to automate. Thermal Sunder Garuda was easily the most common, and I would see one or more literally every public lobby I played. For a time it drove me to only play solo, but solo Warframe is honestly not terribly fun most of the time. The team dynamic is an important element of the game. Imagine you were in a bizarre rec soccer league and had two choices: play soccer by yourself, or play with the most unlikeable ball-hog who insisted on full control of the ball at all times, every game, and refused to acknowledge the rest of the team in any way. And unfortunately the ball-hog was quite capable at soccer, so in almost every game you just ran around, hoping to play, but never getting the chance. So you play as a team of one for a while and maybe even enjoy some success, but it's always apparent that you are playing a team game, alone. You would probably just quit that soccer league, wouldn't you?

And so I was a vocal proponent for Thermal Sunder's recent reduction in power. I thought I might get the chance to play the game, for once, with Garuda the ball-hog's secret weapon finally taken (and reverting Garuda back to only a perfectly capable and rather good warframe, mind you). However it seems the devs were overly cautious with the 'nerf', and I can't entirely fault them for it, given the poison this community is willing to spit just at the sight of the word.

But half-measures simply don't do. Since the change, if anything I have seen more Thermal Sunder abuse. Just not from Garuda anymore. It seems the change has opened players' eyes to the possibility of simply spamming Thermal Sunder on Gauss, with all the myriad energy economy simplifiers in the game now. Or pull out the old Titania. Or... Anything. Today while doing the sortie for Nightwave credits, a Thermal Sunder Wukong cleared the entire 3rd mission (Hyena Pack assassination w/ cryo modifier) in thirteen seconds, spawn to exit, doing nothing but zipping through the map at incalculable speed and casting Thermal Sunder uninterrupted the entire time. No enemies survived along the way. All I could do is bullet jump to extraction. Even the Hyenas were disintegrated before their first audio clip played on my end.

It looks to me like the intent of the change was very narrowly focused on the nigh-infinite scaling of the ability, but how many people chase Survival high scores in Steel Path...? That is to say, how many people does this change benefit? The much more common issue is how obnoxious it can be in everyday gameplay. I don't mind it being viable for a "brain-off" trash mob clearer, but what it remains capable of is just absurd.  I defy anyone to find a single ability in the game (save the ones that theoretically scale infinitely, ie Dread Heart, that require extensive setup [>13 seconds] to achieve) powerful enough that even with 500% Ability Power, a Sortie assassination target dies to a single use of it. So why can a subsumible, non-'ultimate' ability seem to do so? The closest comparison I can find is Vauban's Flechette Orb, but even that takes more time and does not have anywhere near the range of Sunder, nor can it hit through walls.

It's also fairly telling when a subsumible ability is more popular than the frame it comes from, as in Gauss and Grendel, and especially so since Gauss and Grendel themselves have unique interaction with the abilities that every other Warframe misses out on. But other Warframes don't have Battery to manage / expend, nor do they require frontloaded energy (or with an augment, HP) cost before casting Nourish. Arguably, Thermal Sunder and Nourish are better on other Warframes than on their originators for this very reason. Does that not smack of poor balance? Nobody tactically uses the different modes of Thermal Sunder, which seems to be the designed intent; they just spam the fire one as often as possible.

While I can appreciate the doctrine of 'nerfing' things inch by inch rather than by miles, this was clearly a shallow cut. Thermal Sunder could use another look.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Seele
typo

[Aruquae]

I could see them reducing the range

The cap at 10 stacks was a good starting point, but reducing the range can help mitigate the sheer nuking capabilities. And people can still nuke with thermal sunder, but they need to move. Could also put some sort of casting delay, isn’t it hold to create heat? There could be a subsumed delay when reversing for heat. I say this because when reversing a battery’s power, it should take time. 
Overall hearing about Thermal Sunder Garuda’s makes me so triggered because her nuking capabilities are far superior to thermal sunder spam… it’s just redundant, and stupid. Harrow I can see, but a nuke frame already? Come on people

[Traumtulpe]

What is the endgame here? You seem to advocate for all abilities being unable to kill Corpus, even outside of the Steel Path - I'm sure you will be aware that this makes them completely useless, right?

If you want to make any and all AoE abilities useless, maybe just say so? Because with the baby steps you are making (nerf Thermal Sunder subsume! Now nerf it some more! Now nerf the next best ability!) you'll never accomplish anything.

Thermal Sunder with the 10x cap is no longer useful on the Steel Path. Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned.

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Thermal Sunder with the 10x cap is no longer useful on the Steel Path. Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned.

That's fine?

DE has said before that Steel Path is meant to be a challenge mode. As far as they're concerned, base star chart is their main focus so they don't care how balanced Steel Path is. And with that context, Thermal Sunder was absolutely busted in non-Steel Path content.

Now if they would just do something about Saryn and Mesa next.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[Zendoker]

Let me point out that we don't need "More" work, but rather "Different" work with the thermal sounder. The nerf didn't fix the main problem - easy killing of mobs with mindless spam, but it deprived us of really interesting things (On SP you had to get several stacks of fire before you could kill the enemy, which wasted more time and energy, but covered a larger area.) And Simply reducing damage or area will not solve the problem in any way. DE needs to somehow counter spam.
There's usually a CD for this, and I think it would be great here.

DE can also increase the amount of energy for reuse, as has already been done in RJ (By the way, this was done there as a counter mindless spam and works quite well.) Or make the explosion damage depend on how much damage the fire statuses ALREADY DID. (Since the damage from cold statuses is already significantly less, and the cold status does not deal damage by itself, spamming cold will not be as effective a strategy.)

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, Zendoker said:

(On SP you had to get several stacks of fire before you could kill the enemy, which wasted more time and energy, but covered a larger area.)

Furis Incarnon's 100% fire damage and high status chance has entered the chat.

[Zendoker]

16 минут назад, Pizzarugi сказал:

Furis Incarnon's 100% fire damage and high status chance has entered the chat.

 

Thermal sunder has left the chat.
Coil Horizon/roar have entered the chat.
(Seriously, when using fire-oriented weapons, it is much easier to kill the enemy with the weapon itself, and not with a thermal sunder)

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 2 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

Thermal Sunder with the 10x cap is no longer useful on the Steel Path. Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned.

Well yes but actually no.

It is way more balanced now that the initial damage instance of the ability can only stack up to 10 for the subsumed version, but the DoT scaling remains good and with certain abilities / mechanics like heat inherit, Terrify, or Roar, it's as if not much had changed.
But;
A) If you infuse Thermal Sunder you don't get to use the others except on their designated frames, and
B) This requires of a more active gameplay than simply staying in place and cycling between two abilities constantly, which is fairer, although relatively easy to do still.

Here's a 12 minute video I found recently explaining in detail why Rhino is (outside of Gauss, of course) the most broken frame to use Thermal Sunder on, and he is in fact, but I never saw anyone mention, complain, or play him with TS;

In conclusion, subsumed Thermal Sunder is still great... on some frames, and if you put some effort.
And that is perfectly fine.

On the other hand;

hace 3 horas, Seele dijo:

It seems the change has opened players' eyes to the possibility of simply spamming Thermal Sunder on Gauss, with all the myriad energy economy simplifiers in the game now.

I hope this isn't inquiring that if the subsumed version gets another nerf and people starts to use Gauss and you find it even worse... they have to nerf TS on him.

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

In conclusion, subsumed Thermal Sunder is still great... on some frames, and if you put some effort.
And that is perfectly fine.

That is not a thing, if you're priming enemies with the Epitaph so your TS can kill, you might as well skip all of that and just use an AoE gun which will outright kill anything you shoot it at.

[Seele]

12 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

What is the endgame here? You seem to advocate for all abilities being unable to kill Corpus, even outside of the Steel Path - I'm sure you will be aware that this makes them completely useless, right?

The "endgame" is there being a game to play. I've never suggested otherwise.

Not even Saryn and Mesa turn the entire game into a non-game the way Thermal Sunder can. It's one-button WoF Ember all over again, except worse, as the falloff point is much, much higher.

I've never said anything specific about the Corpus, so I'm not sure where you get that idea from. I'm not advocating for any ability to be particularly worse against them and nowhere have I suggested a change that would make Thermal Sunder or any other AoE ineffective against the Corpus.

There are countless useless game pieces that have gone undefended for years, so I don't understand why this one is so precious.

I am fine with abilities and builds and mod configs being strong, I will always staunchly oppose anything that trivializes the game to such a ludicrous extent as this, and makes the game unenjoyable for other players.

[Traumtulpe]

You literally said you don't want the ability to kill stuff in a Corpus Sortie. Stop being so evasive and just get clear about what the goal is - and the goal is *not* to "be able to play the game", your goal is very clearly to get certain abilities nerfed (some more). Be specific please.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Seele]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You literally said you don't want the ability to kill stuff in a Corpus Sortie. Stop being so evasive and just get clear about what the goal is - and the goal is *not* to "be able to play the game", your goal is very clearly to get certain abilities nerfed (some more). Be specific please.

No need to be hostile.

I cannot be more specific. I think it is absurd that a Sortie assassination mission (of any kind, not just Corpus, again, not sure why you're getting hung up on that) should be cleared in thirteen seconds by doing nothing but spamming a single ability. I am not being evasive. My goal is not to make everyone who (somehow) enjoys spamming Thermal Sunder and nothing else miserable - my goal is to let myself, and other players like me who don't just spam Thermal Sunder and still enjoy the feedback loop of the gameplay and are not strictly rewards-oriented, have a game left to play. Enemies to attack. Buttons to press.

Why is this so hard for you to process? If you continue to put words in my mouth I will ignore you.

[Hexerin]

Considering it:

• Deals high damage.
• Spans a very wide area.
• Lasts for a decent amount of time.

It really feels like an ultimate skill, despite being Gauss's [3]. What if the Helminth version had its energy cost increased to 100, to match ultimate skills? You'd have to use Fleeting Expertise to get a spammable energy cost out of that, but that'd gimp the duration. If this isn't enough, they could also reduce the base duration.

[Traumtulpe]

49 minutes ago, Seele said:

my goal is to let myself, and other players like me who don't just spam Thermal Sunder and still enjoy the feedback loop of the gameplay and are not strictly rewards-oriented, have a game left to play. Enemies to attack. Buttons to press.

Right. You can already achieve that goal by recruiting people into a group that plays exactly like you want. Random matchmaking means people have no obligation to play a certain, preferred way.

So I ask you again, how would you change Thermal Sunder (and other AoE abilities) so that they don't kill anything, without making them useless?

[Traumtulpe]

22 hours ago, Seele said:

I was ecstatic to see the changes to subsumed Thermal Sunder in the patch notes. [...] But half-measures simply don't do. Since the change, if anything I have seen more Thermal Sunder abuse. [...] While I can appreciate the doctrine of 'nerfing' things inch by inch rather than by miles, this was clearly a shallow cut.

There is really no use being evasive when you've clearly stated in the OP that you want more, bigger nerfs to Thermal Sunder.

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Considering it:

• Deals high damage.
• Spans a very wide area.
• Lasts for a decent amount of time.

It really feels like an ultimate skill, despite being Gauss's [3]. What if the Helminth version had its energy cost increased to 100, to match ultimate skills? You'd have to use Fleeting Expertise to get a spammable energy cost out of that, but that'd gimp the duration. If this isn't enough, they could also reduce the base duration.

Would suggest base duration and maybe range

If they’re using it on Harrow/Garuda, the  they’ll have no problem keeping up the 100 energy spam, even with blind rage. 

[Seele]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

There is really no use being evasive when you've clearly stated in the OP that you want more, bigger nerfs to Thermal Sunder.

It's not evasive if I stated it so plainly. Yes, I do. In the service of improving the game. The stupid ability ruins the game beyond recognition and I am tired of it. Is that the "gotcha" moment you were looking for? Because I've been saying it all along.

[Traumtulpe]

11 minutes ago, Seele said:

Is that the "gotcha" moment you were looking for? Because I've been saying it all along.

Not at all, I'm just asking "how would you nerf it".

Because it should be clear that just making the ability do nothing isn't an option, yes? The question was and still is, "what point between doing nothing and killing enemies without Steel Path modifiers are you aiming for".

[Seele]

17 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Not at all, I'm just asking "how would you nerf it".

Because it should be clear that just making the ability do nothing isn't an option, yes? The question was and still is, "what point between doing nothing and killing enemies without Steel Path modifiers are you aiming for".

I don't want it to be any more useless than other Warframe 3rd abilities. If it had a power profile (ie how impactful in a given game it is or can be) in any way comparable to unaugmented: Teleport, Petrify, Silence, Desolate Hands, Lethal Progeny, Vex Armor, Prismatic Gem, Grave Spirit, Fire Blast, Pacify & Provoke, Radial Javelin, Ice Wave, Spectrorage, Pulverize, Thurible, Haven, I hope you get the picture at this point, literally any other Warframe 3rd or in some cases 4th ability. It embarrasses them all. I grant that some are arguably more 'powerful' overall, like Desolate Hands or Thurible, for more subtle utility; but I have never once thought to myself, "Wow, this Harrow is just ruining the game by letting us all have more energy." It's a strong effect but it doesn't invalidate the game.

The fact that Volt and Saryn are less obnoxious and don't scale as well as thermal sunder, even post-nerf, speaks volumes.

[Traumtulpe]

You are *still* dancing around the question. How would you change Thermal Sunder? It can't be *that* hard to answer, unless the answer actually is that you want it to kill nothing, and you just can't admit to it.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Oh no people are killings things too fast that I can't play, surely we should also nerf other things that also kill things too fast to the point where the rest that enter random pubs where others have obligation to do things your way dont get to play. 

So when are we going to get threads on Nerfing Rubico and Knell due to Eidolons and Archon Hunts?

[Seele]

17 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You are *still* dancing around the question. How would you change Thermal Sunder? It can't be *that* hard to answer, unless the answer actually is that you want it to kill nothing, and you just can't admit to it.

I don't know, guy. I'm not Pablo or any other professional game balancer. I would start with not making it evaporate every enemy in a level 100 mission within thirteen seconds.

Maybe make it not force proc Heat fifteen thousand times a second. Maybe make it not go through walls for fifty miles. Maybe make it not cost so little energy that it can be cast over a hundred times a minute without much effort or penalty. Maybe make it require use of the heat+cold combine blast to be particularly powerful. Put a delay on recasting the same mode. Remove its synergy with Archon Vitality. Rework Archon Vitality. Rework Thermal Sunder. There are countless answers to the problem beyond your sardonically proposed "make it deal zero damage and kill nothing and make every Warframe player sad except Seele."

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, Seele said:

Maybe make it not force proc Heat fifteen thousand times a second. Maybe make it not go through walls for fifty miles. Maybe make it not cost so little energy that it can be cast over a hundred times a minute without much effort or penalty.

Well it doesn't do any of those, case closed.

[Seele]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

Well it doesn't do any of those, case closed.

Well done, Sherlock, you have identified rhetorical hyperbole. (Except it can be cast over 100 times in a minute, that one's legit.)

I invite you to play on SEA servers and see how much fun this game is. Until you do so, reserve your judgment.

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, Seele said:

Well done, Sherlock, you have identified rhetorical hyperbole.

Yes, after I asked you half a dozen times to specify how you would nerf Thermal Sunder (again). You *still* have nothing but hyperbole and dodging the question.

Clearly you are not acting in good faith here.