A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Anunymau5]

I've watched this thread for several months now. All it's become is Zamboni parroting himself repeatedly with no evidence other than he wants a skill tree system. Something that used to be in the game and didn't work. We dont need an entire rewrite of the mod system. What we need is for some mods to be balanced, useless mods to be usefulified, and for less emphasis on certain mods. I agree with the idea of a better system, but it's not skill trees. 

[HansJurgen]

I've watched this thread for several months now. All it's become is Zamboni parroting himself repeatedly with no evidence other than he wants a skill tree system. Something that used to be in the game and didn't work. We dont need an entire rewrite of the mod system. What we need is for some mods to be balanced, useless mods to be usefulified, and for less emphasis on certain mods. I agree with the idea of a better system, but it's not skill trees. 

 

Contrived player retention via grind walls has the opposite effect once players figure out the game has nothing to offer under the guise of "options" (you need to replay the game a thousand times for).

 

Like myself, I believe Zamboni reached a point where the game has nothing to offer him anymore. Nothing. Because he already did and collected everything 1000 times over. And what is left, the core of the game, is shallow and lazy, and there is nothing exciting about it.

 

300 mods, and literally no customization options, shallow and generic game play with zero real replayability. Grinding !=replayability

 

It is either short sighted game design or ruthless marketing. I prefer not to take my chances when there are so many many awesome, one time pay, online game choices out there. 

 

If skill trees did not make sense, as you claim, then all those games which brought the concept (which is as old as pen and paper) to the next level of design wouldn't have won multiple GOTY, and would not have sold millions of copies. Instead, we would have farmville copies garnering universal critical acclaim.

 

Wait, you did not know? The whole "mod/card" mechanic was popularized by Zynga. It has its merits, but does not fit in a shooter at all, no matter how you flip it. People will try to maximize everything. Maximization kills customization. Skill trees block maximization, they force the player to give up something for something else. it is that simple.

 

I can afford games, and I do not need to stick with a F2P when it is evident it stagnates. As for fandom, I am old enough to love games in general, and not a single one in particular, and I see no reason to glorify mediocrity when there are so many fantastic games available to me since 1980 to the day.

Edited May 9, 2014 by HansJurgen

[Sitchrea]

YES! DE, DO THIS! PLEASE! I WOULD PAY MONEY TO SEE THIS BE REAL!!!

[Cryp2Nite]

Contrived player retention via grind walls has the opposite effect once players figure out the game has nothing to offer under the guise of "options" (you need to replay the game a thousand times for).

 

Like myself, I believe Zamboni reached a point where the game has nothing to offer him anymore. Nothing. Because he already did and collected everything 1000 times over. And what is left, the core of the game, is shallow and lazy, and there is nothing exciting about it.

 

300 mods, and literally no customization options, shallow and generic game play with zero real replayability. Grinding !=replayability

 

It is either short sighted game design or ruthless marketing. I prefer not to take my chances when there are so many many awesome, one time pay, online game choices out there. 

 

If skill trees did not make sense, as you claim, then all those games which brought the concept (which is as old as pen and paper) to the next level of design wouldn't have won multiple GOTY, and would not have sold millions of copies. Instead, we would have farmville copies garnering universal critical acclaim.

 

Wait, you did not know? The whole "mod/card" mechanic was popularized by Zynga. It has its merits, but does not fit in a shooter at all, no matter how you flip it. People will try to maximize everything. Maximization kills customization. Skill trees block maximization, they force the player to give up something for something else. it is that simple.

 

I can afford games, and I do not need to stick with a F2P when it is evident it stagnates. As for fandom, I am old enough to love games in general, and not a single one in particular, and I see no reason to glorify mediocrity when there are so many fantastic games available to me since 1980 to the day.

 

Can't say it any better. +1

[theGreatZamboni]

I've watched this thread for several months now. All it's become is Zamboni parroting himself repeatedly with no evidence other than he wants a skill tree system. Something that used to be in the game and didn't work. We dont need an entire rewrite of the mod system. What we need is for some mods to be balanced, useless mods to be usefulified, and for less emphasis on certain mods. I agree with the idea of a better system, but it's not skill trees. 

 

This is hilarious because your post is the reason I have to parrot at all, something I admit to doing. It is because the answers you want and the misconceptions you have are answered in the write-up and weapons thread you are attempting to criticize. I am not against taking and contemplating criticism as many have claimed. The issue is people like you keep criticizing things without basis for doing so, given the argument you choose to present. As for the lack of attention to expanding on melee should be pretty obvious at this point- though the current system is extremely flawed. For people continuing to cry foul about the ideas of a skill tree, the basics are there in the text itself- one only has to be bothered to look. Could it be expanded? Yes, and I have done so- the hesitation in posting it is due to my inability to reply and my apathy in general towards the game. Saying "we had a skill tree" is a terrible basis for starting a discussion as I state exactly why that doesn't stand to hold ground in the OP (which I have now updated to reflect this notion further). Hence why I tell people to actually read what I write. The next issue is- the old system only LOOKED like a skill tree but failed to fully explore the possibilities that a well constructed tree could possess. It was also was dependent on randomized drops to advance and not skill/dedication, something it shares with The Mod Card System. Unlike the original system, the current one features a finite number of mods without random stats, 247 I believe. This is a major problem.

 

If you want to read more about why that is a problem (finite customization), if it is not already self evident- here. As stated by DE, Warframe is supposed to be a loot based game. This is a post I made a while back that can sum up why calling it that is an issue, and briefly talks about why it is a poor loot based game. Combine the reasoning there with the idea of stagnation and power creep becoming one in the same- something I discussed earlier in this very thread and you have your answer about why the current system is so flawed. Not only do I discuss why mods are a problem, but how the general way players interact with the game leaves much to be desired- things that can be attributed to lacking modes of play, AI, etc. Things that can be fixed if you lay a proper foundation.

Edited May 14, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[-Ozymandias-]

woah

[CosyPigeon]

Contrived player retention via grind walls has the opposite effect once players figure out the game has nothing to offer under the guise of "options" (you need to replay the game a thousand times for).

 

Like myself, I believe Zamboni reached a point where the game has nothing to offer him anymore. Nothing. Because he already did and collected everything 1000 times over. And what is left, the core of the game, is shallow and lazy, and there is nothing exciting about it.

 

300 mods, and literally no customization options, shallow and generic game play with zero real replayability. Grinding !=replayability

 

It is either short sighted game design or ruthless marketing. I prefer not to take my chances when there are so many many awesome, one time pay, online game choices out there. 

 

If skill trees did not make sense, as you claim, then all those games which brought the concept (which is as old as pen and paper) to the next level of design wouldn't have won multiple GOTY, and would not have sold millions of copies. Instead, we would have farmville copies garnering universal critical acclaim.

 

Wait, you did not know? The whole "mod/card" mechanic was popularized by Zynga. It has its merits, but does not fit in a shooter at all, no matter how you flip it. People will try to maximize everything. Maximization kills customization. Skill trees block maximization, they force the player to give up something for something else. it is that simple.

 

I can afford games, and I do not need to stick with a F2P when it is evident it stagnates. As for fandom, I am old enough to love games in general, and not a single one in particular, and I see no reason to glorify mediocrity when there are so many fantastic games available to me since 1980 to the day.

Yup, excellent summary. +1

[HansJurgen]

Yup, excellent summary. +1

 

 

Can't say it any better. +1

 

Thank you. It feels good to see veteran players agree.

Edited May 12, 2014 by HansJurgen

[RespectTheInternet]

I like the idea. Customization is always a plus.

[HavocWolf]

i feel like u focus a bit too much on trees... I agree with a lot of what your saying such as the attachments, however i think that the mod card systems is a bit what makes warframe a bit unique... replacing that with a skill tree would make warframe seem very MMORPGish... i wouldnt mind a skill tree in addition with mod cards because then your just adding more content (as long as some thought and effort was put into what the skill tre could do). Furthermore, some things would be very hard to put into an attachment such as the corrupt mods, nightmare mods, and status chances mods. Or even the channeling mods and etc.

 

granted i did not read through all of the forum and just skimmed through it. this is just a starting opinion. ill read over the whole thing in the future and make a final decision on what i think. i agree with a lot but not all.

[CosyPigeon]

i feel like u focus a bit too much on trees... I agree with a lot of what your saying such as the attachments, however i think that the mod card systems is a bit what makes warframe a bit unique... replacing that with a skill tree would make warframe seem very MMORPGish... i wouldnt mind a skill tree in addition with mod cards because then your just adding more content (as long as some thought and effort was put into what the skill tre could do). Furthermore, some things would be very hard to put into an attachment such as the corrupt mods, nightmare mods, and status chances mods. Or even the channeling mods and etc.

 

granted i did not read through all of the forum and just skimmed through it. this is just a starting opinion. ill read over the whole thing in the future and make a final decision on what i think. i agree with a lot but not all.

Guess you didn't read his post then, because he says as much anyway, skill tress supplemented by mod cards with mods that are relevant to specific skill trees to enable customisation whilst reducing mod bloat by removing mods that are redundant or provide the illusion of choice. 

[RustyNaps]

WHY ARENT PEOPLE LIKE YOU IN CHARGED?

 

I swear, we never get the right people to make these games.

[GefestXXL]

Super!

[toolofdarkness]

WHY ARENT PEOPLE LIKE YOU IN CHARGED?

 

I swear, we never get the right people to make these games.

 

the answer to your question is quite simple. A) we don't know enough coding to make and implement things effectively. B) we are to lazy to start making games. C) we are to busy testing other games to make one.

[alphex2357]

This thread returns at the turn of the tide.... (to much QQish threads glad to see a good post)

[HavocWolf]

i feel like u focus a bit too much on trees... I agree with a lot of what your saying such as the attachments, however i think that the mod card systems is a bit what makes warframe a bit unique... replacing that with a skill tree would make warframe seem very MMORPGish... i wouldnt mind a skill tree in addition with mod cards because then your just adding more content (as long as some thought and effort was put into what the skill tre could do). Furthermore, some things would be very hard to put into an attachment such as the corrupt mods, nightmare mods, and status chances mods. Or even the channeling mods and etc.

 

granted i did not read through all of the forum and just skimmed through it. this is just a starting opinion. ill read over the whole thing in the future and make a final decision on what i think. i agree with a lot but not all.

 

Guess you didn't read his post then, because he says as much anyway, skill tress supplemented by mod cards with mods that are relevant to specific skill trees to enable customisation whilst reducing mod bloat by removing mods that are redundant or provide the illusion of choice. 

alright so i fully read the whole thing and i have to say this is superb and take back most of what i said. I am all for the skill tree system and the complete removal of the mod card system. The seperation of systems powers and utility is a great idea. And the way the utility tree works  is also brilliant. However, i feel that even tho the other 2 trees are great, u should differentiate them a bit more so they feel different from each other and other mmos that use skill trees. If you could do that, it would be fantastic. Also, im guessing a reactor would double the ammount of points u get per level/ have in total. 

 

In conjuction with the removal of mods, thats all the drop table really is, besides resources. What would be there to replace it? what would the point be of nightmare mode besides a challenge (and with most games, when u take a challenge, you are usually rewarded better) or the vaults? what about nightmare mods and corrupted mods? those arent a bad thing. sure you could spread your points out to get the effect of nightmare mods, or stack them into one skill/branch(?) in the tree but with the tree u take out the maxing system, which was kinda unique to warframe. (i havent seen any other game do it like warframe does) unless you have skills/branches(?) that boosts 2 effects like nightmare mods or boosts one even higher while lowering another like corrupt mods, you kidna take out maxing which isnt a bad thing in this game. if someone wants to sacrifice all/a lot of their duration for power, they should be able too. like you said, this game is about "Choice"

 

The attachments system is almost perfection as far as i can see and had the idea aswell not to long ago. I would love to see an RDS on my Latron Prime and make it more accurate, or an ACOG to have increased zoom. tho how would we get radiation and magnetic, etc. elements back? add cores just for that? or can we combine cores? would we also be able to add multiple sights? like rds and acog to get increased zoom and accuracy? if these things were addressed it would be a great and perfect system :D

 

The fight lab im still a little iffy on... i think the dmg and chain strikes r fine, but the health and energy return would be a bit overpowered. I also think u should elaborate more on it or at least make it a bit more clear. like how would we get elments on the weapons now without mods? would there be attachments for melee weapons? like serrated edge for i guess slash dmg? but how would i put stuff like fire or ice or combined elements like radiation

 

Overall this entire forum is great and hope to see it come into play in the future:D ill post any other suggestions or comments later and im off to read your seperate weaposn thread aswell great work dude :D (sorry bout sloppy writing in a rush :P)

Edited May 20, 2014 by Brawleee

[DoesItWorksJay]

I really like and agree with most of your ideas, except for the Remember Me-like melee system. Remember Me was - Sadly - awful, despite its interesting concepts. I could only get to chapter 3 before I couldn't stand the game anymore.

 

Other than that, all's good. Specially the weapon attachments idea.

[Unibot]

YES!! YES!!

Pin it! And shove it in the DE face, so they won't look away.

This need to be in game 100% agree on all points.

[Awazx]

Contrived player retention via grind walls has the opposite effect once players figure out the game has nothing to offer under the guise of "options" (you need to replay the game a thousand times for).

 

Like myself, I believe Zamboni reached a point where the game has nothing to offer him anymore. Nothing. Because he already did and collected everything 1000 times over. And what is left, the core of the game, is shallow and lazy, and there is nothing exciting about it.

 

300 mods, and literally no customization options, shallow and generic game play with zero real replayability. Grinding !=replayability

 

It is either short sighted game design or ruthless marketing. I prefer not to take my chances when there are so many many awesome, one time pay, online game choices out there. 

 

If skill trees did not make sense, as you claim, then all those games which brought the concept (which is as old as pen and paper) to the next level of design wouldn't have won multiple GOTY, and would not have sold millions of copies. Instead, we would have farmville copies garnering universal critical acclaim.

 

Wait, you did not know? The whole "mod/card" mechanic was popularized by Zynga. It has its merits, but does not fit in a shooter at all, no matter how you flip it. People will try to maximize everything. Maximization kills customization. Skill trees block maximization, they force the player to give up something for something else. it is that simple.

 

I can afford games, and I do not need to stick with a F2P when it is evident it stagnates. As for fandom, I am old enough to love games in general, and not a single one in particular, and I see no reason to glorify mediocrity when there are so many fantastic games available to me since 1980 to the day.

+1 This.

+1 OP.

[SolidSp33d]

Before I even give this a read, pro tip: Divide long, multi-idea posts into sections with clear titles and divides.

Edited May 23, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Whendigo]

I dont think we should just remove the mods.. World be better if we had both talet trees and the mods... Would however end with People cockie cutting anyway

[Irreverent]

It's... beautiful

 

 

+1

[SnokyoDrift]

Hopefully DE takes a good hard look at their system and decides to do something about it. The customisation system is broken in this game because there are so many mandatory mods and things that can't be gained from levels, no doubt created to force people to spend money on potatoes and forma.

 

The illusion of choice results in a system where only 2-3 slots of each weapon or warframe are actually customisable. I much prefer the systems in other RPG FPS, or even multiplayer competitive FPS like tribes because they allow a good foundation to which the player can add augmentations. 

Warframe has no foundation and it needs one desperately.

[CosyPigeon]

Passive aggressive BUMP.

[Clawtank96]

Wow, I like this