A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[notionphil]

... This repeated argument of too much work is just absurd. They have nothing else to do, this is their job. They chose to call it a beta. They chose to redo the system before, they can do it again. Except this time measure twice, cut once.

 

 

Actually the devs do have something else to do.

 

For every hour devs could spend implementing your incredibly complex suggestion they can't be working on creating the depth that you so clearly state is lacking from the rest of the game.

 

This is an issue because the same benefits of your idea could alternately be achieved with very minor changes to the existing mod system.

 

 

The only arguments have been "I like grind", "I don't like it", "Stop trying to make this CoD". While the only legit critique has come from Fool and Grunty. This very post, is nearly identical to the one a few pages back.

 

 

I proposed this argument, which is not any of the above.

 

Your system's intent is to address Grind, Samey Builds and Randomness, which can be done in tiny evolutionary steps using the existing system

 

Grind + Randomness - Make every single mod a mastery rank/skill based reward (EX: survive wave 15 xini for Sundering Strike. Get 10 headshots in 20 sec for Eagle Eye, Achieve mastery rank 1 for Serration)

 

Samey Builds - Separate mod slots into sections (gun:barrel, stock, scope) - (frame:systems, helmet, chassis). That way you can only choose between of key mods (ex: serration OR multishot on barrel), and have more room for customization. Each weapon could have diff # slots and diff sections.

 

This accomplishes the same thing as the non-melee parts of your system with a small fraction of the effort.

 

As you said:

 

[from the OP not the time above]

If you have a solid foundation, you can build levels, enemies and modes of play that compliment as well as expand upon something that is already inherently engaging and fun.

 

The longer it takes to 'fix' core gameplay, the longer until we get the "levels, enemies, modes of play and expansion" in the form of other systems with depth. Systems like actual quests, real weapon specialization and clan based challenges.

 

That is why people are suggesting that your idea is too complex. It's not a bad idea - but it's too large of a solution for the problem.

Edited December 2, 2013 by notionphil

[Calayne]

-snip-

 

Whoa, hey, Notionphil: Just read your thread earlier. Big fan of your Cell suggestion. Wonderfully written.

 

He did mention that weapon mods will be separated to Barrel, sight, magazine, etc, though.

 

But I think you mentioned something absolutely ground-breaking a second up there: Getting mods for achievements! Holy crap, now that we've got that around, that could actually be a great way to get beginners the mods they need, while also giving them a very clearly defined goal to get that first mod they really, really need. Loving that idea like a Husky puppy. And I f---king love Huskies.

 

His idea -is- a little drastic, I admit. But we're just throwing it out there: There's a rough cut-out concept of it, but I think ultimately, if DE sees the potential in it, it's possible still that they may choose to implement certain aspects of it, or all of it, if it's good enough. They probably know how to weigh the options, and if the benefits of one out-weigh the other, or if a compromise can be reached. 

 

I'll refrain from commenting any more on the topic of melee, though: I think as it stands, we're on the precipice of another step in the melee department, and I think further discussion on the matter is beating a nigh-dead horse. 

[notionphil]

Whoa, hey, Notionphil: Just read your thread earlier. Big fan of your Cell suggestion. Wonderfully written.

 

He did mention that weapon mods will be separated to Barrel, sight, magazine, etc, though.

 

But I think you mentioned something absolutely ground-breaking a second up there: Getting mods for achievements! Holy crap, now that we've got that around, that could actually be a great way to get beginners the mods they need, while also giving them a very clearly defined goal to get that first mod they really, really need. Loving that idea like a Husky puppy. And I f---king love Huskies.

 

His idea -is- a little drastic, I admit. But we're just throwing it out there: There's a rough cut-out concept of it, but I think ultimately, if DE sees the potential in it, it's possible still that they may choose to implement certain aspects of it, or all of it, if it's good enough. They probably know how to weigh the options, and if the benefits of one out-weigh the other, or if a compromise can be reached. 

..

 

Breaking mods into sections like gun and barrel has been floating around the forums as long as ideas for "crono: the time based warframe". :P It's a great idea and solid basis for a revamp.

 

However, the OP's suggestion is that 'something other than mods' can be applied to different parts of a weapon. That 'something other than mods' part + 'skill trees' is the massive part of the suggestion which which scraps the current system and starts over for no clear reason.

 

Putting mods in those weapon-specific slots would work just as well as putting 'orbs' 'skills' 'cores' 'talents' etc etc...however, we already have spent 1000+ hours creating, testing and 'balancing' mods, so why scrap them and start over? What will the benefit be?

 

As I suggest, we can easily fix the fact that mods can only be RNG obtained. So why burn the entire mod down and start again; to say we did?

 

The OP's idea is a great starting point for an actual way to 'fix' progression in the game. However it appears the OP is very resistant to feedback and constructive critique.

 

So instead of the idea being refined, it is being defended.

 

 

 

 

 

PS.

 

Thanks for the Cells shoutout. To relate that to this discussion...I spent the first few pages trying to 'defend' an un-necessarily bloated hard-capped level-limit i suggested in the OP. It required a way to 'de-level' yourself etc to run lower lv Cells and I just thought it was totally rock-solid necessary. Once I took a step back, realized the critics were right and it was too complex, i figured out a way to merge their feedback with my idea, simplifying everything.

 

And still keeping my original intent, in a much more streamlined manner.

 

It made Cells go from "great starting point" to "fully fleshed out, easy to implement feedback".

Edited December 2, 2013 by notionphil

[Calayne]

(The fact that I seem to recall suggesting a time-based Warframe called Cronos seems to lend your assertion AMAZING credibility! LOL!)

 

Hmm, perhaps it's true what you say, about the OP. Though, some points are worth defending, to an extent. I'm not entirely sure what the repercussions are if the changes are implemented, and more importantly, the pay-off. But still, I do think the idea has merit: Perhaps like you say, the key is to fuse ideas: Make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. I think people have been pretty creative in their input, there's been some pretty interesting suggestions and insights.

 

Some mods -are- kinda neglected, though, and the idea that weapons should be potent in and of themselves is a notion I dearly love. You shouldn't need to mod it just to be minimally effective, as some missions can quickly prove: Vay Hek in my earlier days was nigh-impossible to beat with a Latron, back in Damage 1.0. Same case, I wager, even with the right weapons without the right mods. In principle, I think that guns need to be modded for variety, rather than potency, to be attractive. Granted, this may not require a huge-&#! overhaul, but it's pretty close. The people who bought maxed Serration, for one, would be pretty &!$$ed. ;x

 

For example, why should Braton suck all of its life? At Rank 30, without the right mods it's still the same thing as it was at Rank 15, for example, if there are no good mods yet. Granted, the achievement system might solve this, but for the sake of argument, the worst case scenario is generally a good indicator of how frustrating beginners may find it. His proposed change would mean it is consistently powerful (As you rank up, to match your opponents), except you get to add effects with level, rather than just the chance to make it powerful, and I love that idea.

 

Can we still do it with mods? Probably, yeah! Will it still need a pretty big change? Again, probably yes! But is it worth it? I certainly believe so. Hunting for Serration is a S#&$ty job no one wants to have, doubly so for newbies. Many people argue for skill against bigger numbers, and I think this closes that gap much more easily now, in accordance with the earlier calls for "Mastery Rank not having combat bonuses".

 

Also, that's totally cool, about the Cell thing. Hopefully, we can flesh this OP out, which I think Zamboni would, and allow DE to see what fruitful discussion offers to the game.

 

....And wtf am I doing here still? I GOT AN EXAM IN THE MORNING, AAAAAARGH!!!!!

 

Edit: Still freakken' here. Looking back at the OP, there's still something I fundamentally agree with: The game itself has too much grind for the sake of grind, and the RNG is really quite frustrating to some. Grind is good, with a clear goal in mind, most times. Kind of like quests, even if those quests themselves can be pretty long. More importantly, it's true that people go through missions rather... monotonously, in a truly robotic fashion. But seeing some complaints on the forums, it gives me the impression that some of the grind is sucking the soul right out of the players. Here's to hoping DE implements some change to help address that concern, as well as make the missions themselves (As well as the game itself!) fun to play.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Calayne

[FlyDungas]

delete this thread and start your own company while you still can bro, this is too good

[theGreatZamboni]

Ok here it is again. For those of you saying I am getting rid of mods for no clear reason: If you keep mods in and they remain drops, the game remains about obtaining those drops. Once you get the ones you want/need, using them given the content provided is lacking. As for me not taking critique, there has been none that stands up to the proposed ideas. Which is the issue I am having. You even quoted me on comments I have made about the critique thus far. It has been entirely made up of "People like grind", "I like grind", "Too much work", "It's a beta", "Your change is too drastic". The last one irks me the most. Even Notions proposed system does something mine does not, which becomes the issue. One aspect of the idea is attacked or criticized, without taking into account the whole idea. While traditionally you do this in a debate, it does not work here. Saying we can keep mods is fine. But that retains excessive focus on drops. Tying Mods to Mastery Rank or level completion does not encourage replaying of levels as it does not alter the current gameplay in which my skill tree does. The idea here being, these systems would suffice until the content catches up to the core game. I am still writing the other threads, but for example:

 

Powers are given innately, as stated in the OP. Powers gain new utility and power as you spend points on them. But this means you cannot max every branch. Meaning you pick what powers you want depending on your style of play. If you really like Decoy, increases to it may upgrade max health, make it explode dealing damage when destroyed, reflect damage back to attackers and so on. But if you get high enough in the Decoy branch you cannot max Switch teleport, so the following style of play becomes unavailable. Switch with multiple targets using Switch Teleport. Hold and drag over a series of enemies, then switch to the location of the first while they are left where you were standing. This is not only useful for you, but actually promotes teamplay. You talk with your friends and say "Hey Ember, max out your Fireblast. I will switch teleport enemies into it." The idea being you can create real means of cooperation outside of increased drop farming.

 

Now think. If you just tied Mod cards to Mastery Rank, you lose power customization. My idea makes Mastery Rank viable for more than just attaining powers. Your ideas do not factor into account the barring and design of content based around a Mastery Rank. This is where I get frustrated and you accuse me of not taking criticism. No idea has taken into account my entire proposed idea. Without Precepts, you cannot understand player vitals given their current rate of progression. You cannot design content in a feasible way. Precepts, get rid of mods like Focus or Flow. Meaning you do not have to forgo other powers like Intruder. Precepts make leveling new Warframes faster and easier so you can pit them against higher level content. If you just want Mod slots and don't want to tie them to Mastery Rank, you forgo everything above and retain unbearable grind. This is where the issue lies. The idea takes into account every idea that has been posed against it, yet none have been as comprehensive. This idea literally addresses EVERYTHING. Yet manages to remain vague as to avoid greater length. There has been no constructive critique that suggests a small change here or there, but outright bashing of the idea which leads me to believe there are some people who are not reading it. Things like potatoes and forma do not exist as they have no place in my systems. Suggesting ways to retain them and their importance is fine. Saying that the idea is bad because it takes from other games, is stupid.

 

I am starting to think I need to narrate it for people who are not reading. But then there are people like Fool who agreed with the message, but wanted melee to be different; I talked to him and explained myself. I referenced DE's own work on melee and talked about keeping it fast but granting it utility. While you can still like your idea better, it should not devalue mine. There are good suggestions of other possible reworks. But as I have stated, they do not address every single issue and see fit to attack only aspects of concepts rather than the whole system, when the system is designed to be a comprehensive one. There has been very little posed against what I have said, that has peaked my interest. I am not against suggestions or critique. I am remaining objective and I understand the concerns people are showcasing. But while some are seeing fit to talk in circles to the point of contradiction; other have read the post and even saw fit to point out aspects of what I stated that debunk any supposed issue. Those people who can use the power of reading comprehension are no longer here to point out the obvious and thus leaving me to repeatedly quote myself. You can not like an idea. But to say I am limiting customization or that the change is too large; I would not have put the effort into this had I not considered simple solutions first. This is about a foundation. It retools functions to construct a system that DE would in theory not have to touch for a great stretch of time. Set it and forget it. Then bring the content to the level of the core gameplay. The whole post is about drops, gameplay, choice and function.

 

 

This is where the Power tree gets its chance to shine. Ember is a caster. With Overheat she becomes tanky, while still dealing damage. What if players could sacrifice the damage of Fireball or Fireblast, for increased damage reduction or duration on Overheat? Player could customize their powers to their liking. Tweak each powers' functionality to fit their play-style. Some Warframes will always better at certain roles, but due to the nature of the Power tree you can blur those lines. Allow players to sacrifice the power of Tesla Grenades, for an increase to the number of enemies that Bastille can trap and vice versa.

These are functions the current Mod Card system does not allow for, outside of flat increases to things like duration or power. The key lies in making something like Super Jump a viable choice rather than Slash Dash or Radial Javelin. You can make that work, but this thread is not about the specifics but rather the potential.

Potential. There is potential for mods like Maglev or Intruder. But as I stated above, they get cast aside for better mods. While the Power and Systems trees create a standard progression of powers with trade offs; the Utility trees does the opposite. Instead of having to plug points into a skill or modification to get higher up the tree, you can pick any Utility power at anytime. There is no progression to the tree aside from putting multiple points into the same power to increase its effectiveness. If you want Maglev, you got it. If you want a bunch of energy, you got it.

The ways these trees work in conjunction with the A/B/C loadouts, there is no min-maxing. Because increasing things like power damage or duration on a larger scale is tied to Mastery Precepts, players are free to experiment. It should also be noted that Warframes receive their powers without having to spend a single point on it. You can go about this several ways, but I feel that you should give the player their first two abilities at level 1, then the next two at level 10. No one should ever have to forfeit one of their Warframe's powers just to min-max a build.

What this does is everything the Mod Card system does and more. It creates true, viable creativity and a means to measure progression. A player with a level 30 Excalibur and a Mastery rank of 6 will have a measurable set of stats. The skill tree allows fluctuation of those stats, but never in a negative way due to the Precepts. Players of a specific Mastery Rank will always have the similar stats. Meaning you can design challenging enemies and scenarios around player Mastery Rank.

Edited December 2, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Waswat]

I am of the camp that should a scope be seen on the top of the gun, it doesn’t mean you have to use it in the gameplay. Just have bullet spread decrease when holding down RMB with a scope attached.

 

 

No thank you, I prefer Warframe a bit more similar to Quake rather than that. With this you'll be forcing players to aim down sights / scopes every time you see a mob to magically "reduce" bullet spread that shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

I like your proposal for different systems for the Warframes but I believe that your vision on the weapons is horribly close to a mix between Call of Duty and Battlefield. What's the point of seperating the different systems of a weapon when you're just going to take the one that does the most damage like primed chamber? You will simply have cookie cutter builds for the game with this system and it's not solving any problems for the current system.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Waswat

[Calayne]

I think posts like the above are the reason why Zamboni sometimes sounds a little constipated. I've only been on this thread since page 12 or so, but I think I've seen this argument quite a few times. 

[notionphil]

Ok here it is again. For those of you saying I am getting rid of mods for no clear reason: If you keep mods in and they remain drops, the game remains about obtaining those drops. Once you get the ones you want/need, using them given the content provided is lacking.

 

 Even Notions proposed system does something mine does not, which becomes the issue. One aspect of the idea is attacked or criticized, without taking into account the whole idea. While traditionally you do this in a debate, it does not work here. Saying we can keep mods is fine. But that retains excessive focus on drops.

 

I said that mods would be rewards for achievements or mastery rank, not drops. So there is no focus on mod drops whatsoever in my alternate to your system*.

 

 

[ detail about power specialization that is common in skill trees] EX:

 

"If you really like Decoy, increases to it may upgrade max health, make it explode dealing damage when destroyed, reflect damage back to attackers and so on. But if you get high enough in the Decoy branch you cannot max Switch teleport, so the following style of play becomes unavailable".

 

...Now think. If you just tied Mod cards to Mastery Rank, you lose power customization.

 

You aren't thinking at all in terms of the potential of the current system. If you wanted to create specializations with the mod system, it also is a simple evolutionary change.

 

To specialize in a power, as you use as an example, you could a equip type of mod card called a Foci.

 

EX: Foci - Unstable Decoy: Loki's Decoy deals X dmg with Y radius when destroyed.

 

However, because we are suggesting to have specific slots for different types of mods, a frame won't have enough Foci slots to equip one for each power. Thus, exactly like your suggestion, you will still choose between "dealing explosive dmg for decoy" or "maxing switch teleport" by using a Foci for that power.

 

And, whats even better, is we can make Foci earned by an achievement related to the actual skill. Want the Unstable Decoy mod? Kill X mobs with an explosive damage type while they are attacking your decoy.

 

 

 

 Your ideas do not factor into account the barring and design of content based around a Mastery Rank. This is where I get frustrated and you accuse me of not taking criticism. No idea has taken into account my entire proposed idea. Without Precepts, you cannot understand player vitals given their current rate of progression. .

 

I am replying with simplified suggestions to the stated 3 goals in your OP. This was not one of them, but if you have a key goal related to mastery rank please explain and I will modify a proposal to achieve that goal.

 

Assigning key mods as mastery rewards, such as serration, vitality etc would definitely ensure that players of rank X have access to base power level Y.

 

Other than that, I would need more detail of your goals as they relate to mastery rank.

 

*note that I do not agree that a system needs all of these fixes, such as 'allowing new warframes to engage high level content faster via precepts'. My point is, there are ways to do all of these things within the existing framework if you think creatively.

 

Taking ideas from other games is great. Making them FIT this game with as little work as possible (so that more new ideas can also be added)...that's the hard part.

[theGreatZamboni]

I think posts like the above are the reason why Zamboni sometimes sounds a little constipated. I've only been on this thread since page 12 or so, but I think I've seen this argument quite a few times. 

 

I was right in the middle of replying to him. I was going to explain everything, again. But yes. Posts like that coupled with ideas that to not take into consideration all aspects of the system proposed is what is frustrating. I want people to make suggestions or critiques. But as I have stated, many times, they are not as well thought out as the concept it is supposed to be criticizing.

[Calayne]

Powers are given innately, as stated in the OP. Powers gain new utility and power as you spend points on them. But this means you cannot max every branch. Meaning you pick what powers you want depending on your style of play. If you really like Decoy, increases to it may upgrade max health, make it explode dealing damage when destroyed, reflect damage back to attackers and so on. But if you get high enough in the Decoy branch you cannot max Switch teleport, so the following style of play becomes unavailable. Switch with multiple targets using Switch Teleport. Hold and drag over a series of enemies, then switch to the location of the first while they are left where you were standing. This is not only useful for you, but actually promotes teamplay. You talk with your friends and say "Hey Ember, max out your Fireblast. I will switch teleport enemies into it." The idea being you can create real means of cooperation outside of increased drop farming.

 

 

 

Okay, gonna focus down here: I love this idea. I'm not sure if I remember seeing that in the OP so specifically, but I recall the power modifications were mentioned.

 

I think, perhaps, we can implement a Mod tree as I recommended earlier, except for another modification: The powers now implement this skill tree, with points dedicated using points earned through Ranking the frame. Surely, this will meet with dissent from those talking about CoD, but I have no idea what they're talking about: I don't play CoD. 

 

This allows the changes to be made rather rapidly: Re-framing the mod system, and allowing powers to all be there, and developing individually, independently, and progressively, in addition to Mod power. So now we can keep the mod system, if it's too big of a change to overhaul, yet still have the benefit of really customizing each of our powers with the limited 30 points we have. Ideally, this should have as many options as possible, as the OP suggests, to enable co-operation. And in this case, you'll also know what possible branches your team-mates are going into. 

 

Damage 2.0 is the start of team work, I feel: Now everyone has to specialize, especially if they want to seriously implement multi-faction battles in the future. This Power system will enhance that cooperation element. 

[Empiren]

Personally, I don't think it would work.

 

Not because it's a bad Idea, or because it is "too complex" for the users or it has inherent flaws or that it would ruin the playerbase or w/e other bs people are saying.

 

I think it is a great system with good intentions. Might need some work upon implementation but the idea is there.

 

 

I just don't think DE has the talent to make this system work. The system right now is pretty bare-bones when you think about it. I mean outside of the frame abilities, 90% of the content is gun mods with increase % damage or effect, which isn't exactly mechanic heavy tbh.

 

 

The system you proposed might be something a AAA game could pull off, but DE is resorting to petty F2P tactics right now for money, I'm not sure they have the gusto for this type of system and overhaul, especially given the huge amount of problems they already have with their content right now.

-----------

 

I just.....don't have enough faith in DE to pull something like this off.

[Calayne]

Sad, but true. Don't suppose they'll be putting that Founder's money to good use? ;O  I'm reasonably sure it's hard to find good programmers. Job is tough.

[theGreatZamboni]

Personally, I don't think it would work.

 

Not because it's a bad Idea, or because it is "too complex" for the users or it has inherent flaws or that it would ruin the playerbase or w/e other bs people are saying.

 

I think it is a great system with good intentions. Might need some work upon implementation but the idea is there.

 

 

I just don't think DE has the talent to make this system work. The system right now is pretty bare-bones when you think about it. I mean outside of the frame abilities, 90% of the content is gun mods with increase % damage or effect, which isn't exactly mechanic heavy tbh.

 

 

The system you proposed might be something a AAA game could pull off, but DE is resorting to petty F2P tactics right now for money, I'm not sure they have the gusto for this type of system and overhaul, especially given the huge amount of problems they already have with their content right now.

-----------

 

I just.....don't have enough faith in DE to pull something like this off.

 

I spent awhile kicking myself talking about how in the hands of another studio, Warframe could be great. But it's not. If this game fails, DE will have also failed. This is speaking from truth and history. DE were a team of Code Monkeys from the late 90's who helped on Unreal titles. When given the opportunity to make some games, they hit some bumps. Be it of their own accord or not. Now they have the chance to create something great. Something people will talk about for years to come. They spent the past 10+ years trying to get this game made. This is the reason for the awesome concept and art, they spent the most time on it. The Burston, Grineer, Lotus, Tenno, Corpus Ships, Jackle, Extraction Ships are all carried over concepts from previous attempts to make the game. Just recently they revealed that this game was going to be a 15$ XBL game about raiding ships for loot. Given the current model, this would suffice. People would buy it and play it a few times, then put it down. They are now creating a service. This model is one built on the foundation of the success of mobile games as well as other F2P games. Which is ironic because most F2P games fail, due to the trappings Warframe is currently falling into. They created means to milk the players of money without making a game first.

 

They have all the ideas and art, but none of the gameplay. With my proposal they now have the gameplay to embellish and showcase the talent their team posses. When people play a game that looks are great as Warframe, they do not expect to have playtime-meters like Candy Crush. They do not expect to have to pay for powerups, like Farmville. The reason Valve is laughing all the way to the bank with TF2 going F2P, is because it was a game first and a cash cow second. TF2 didn't need new content and people would have still have palyed it. Tribes: Ascend attempted to recreate that success through similar means. But before the game was finished, they piled on cash shop items. For those who would say "But they need to make money", I know.

 

 

People who say this is too much work or would cause unrest would have a point, if DE weren't calling this a Beta. I am of the mindset that this is most certainly not a Beta, but an Alpha with a cash shop. The way a Free2Play game should work, is not to nickle and dime the player to the point of getting in the way of their experience; but to give players the chance to show their support by purchasing content that is supplemental to the overall experience. DE are a games studio. This is not too much work. What it is, is admitting they were wrong. I am most certainly not infallible nor is my idea, but given the direction of the game and the proposed concepts on display; my systems work to better fit the style of game. People will still be able to buy guns, skins, Warframes, Void keys, Sentinels. I highly doubt a large amount of their revenue comes from Mod Packs. This doesn't even address the equally as troublesome idea of item slots. When you would rather exploit your players for money, over providing them an experience they enjoy, well then maybe you need to rethink your career path. I'm sure a number of game publishers are hiring.

 

But they have the unique opportunity to pick themselves up, brush the dust off and move forward. Holding onto the Mod Card system is part of the issue keeping them from moving forward; because it was designed around the idea of artificial lengthening of the game. Retooling it would go against the purpose of it and would just be attempts to move it into the direction I proposed. By dropping mods and using something akin to what I have shown, you not only remove Mods in practice, but remove yourself from the idea of the word Mod. Negative connotations have arisen with the word Mod, to distance your game from it would be beneficial even on a non-gameplay level. I want them to succeed, just like everyone here. But a serious overhaul is in order.

Edited December 2, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[theGreatZamboni]

Okay, gonna focus down here: I love this idea. I'm not sure if I remember seeing that in the OP so specifically, but I recall the power modifications were mentioned.

 

I think, perhaps, we can implement a Mod tree as I recommended earlier, except for another modification: The powers now implement this skill tree, with points dedicated using points earned through Ranking the frame. Surely, this will meet with dissent from those talking about CoD, but I have no idea what they're talking about: I don't play CoD. 

 

This allows the changes to be made rather rapidly: Re-framing the mod system, and allowing powers to all be there, and developing individually, independently, and progressively, in addition to Mod power. So now we can keep the mod system, if it's too big of a change to overhaul, yet still have the benefit of really customizing each of our powers with the limited 30 points we have. Ideally, this should have as many options as possible, as the OP suggests, to enable co-operation. And in this case, you'll also know what possible branches your team-mates are going into. 

 

Damage 2.0 is the start of team work, I feel: Now everyone has to specialize, especially if they want to seriously implement multi-faction battles in the future. This Power system will enhance that cooperation element. 

 

I state exactly that but use different examples in the OP. Here is where I am taking issue. Picture what I propose is exactly how Warframe is now. Is that a bad thing? The system accomplishes everything people apparently want and then some. To keep fiddling with the tired old system to make it run will become tedium to the point of exhaustion from the devs and playerbase. If you want to keep fiddling with the broken heap you are so attached to and fail to see the benefits of starting over, I really don't know what to say. I do not see any merits in the current system. Even with any of the supposed tweaks, issues remain. I will go back to this analogy:

 

 

It really isn't over complex.

 

We are building a car

We put the engine in, without crankshafts on the pistons.

It doesn't run.

So we take the engine out and put spaghetti in the car instead.

It doesn't run.

I suggest we put the engine back in the car and do it correctly

You say that is an amateur mistake.

We push the car up a hill and ride it until we crash.

 

You can keep playing with your spaghetti until it works, I still think an engine would be best. I cannot think of any redeemable aspects of the mod card system. If this was some bare bones mobile side-scroller maybe. I understand people have spent money. That was DE's first mistake. But I am speaking free of the chains of bad choice here. Given no one has spent a dime on the game; which system would you rather have? If DE does not have a list of transactions that they could use to refund people, well...

 

In any case there seems to be enough people who blindly love DE to a point of nausea for me that would be just fine if their mod card packs were never refunded.

[kimahn]

wow. you seriously put some thinking in it. kudos to you, you should obtain your grand master degree.

[Empiren]

Zamboni, it's not that the system you proposed wouldn't make the game greater or that the game should put gameplay above cash-items, 

 

 

It's that as is, with all the trouble DE has with just balancing/fixing I'm pretty sure this system you are suggesting is above their capabilities.

 

 

I don't doubt that they could pull of something like this system, I just doubt that they can pull it off to the degree where it would be better than the current model.

------------

 

I think the idea is great and would definitely be something that would make the game significantly better.........I just don't DE has the resources to implement it to that degree.

-------------

 

 

Not hating on DE here, I think they do a tremendous job with the game, especially with the feedback and content creation. Very few companies ever do it to the level DE does right now.

 

Its just....this would essentially make it into a whole new game. I'm not sure DE has the resources nor the people to implement this system and get it working.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Empiren

[Volume]

Excellent post.

 

You obviously know what you're talking about. I appreciate you analyzing from a game-design perspective. As you may recall, I've seen you make threads like this in at least 2 other betas / alphas (End of Nations, Tribes:Ascend)

 

I have merely one tiny shred of hope that 1/10th of what he's talking about gets implemented.

 

I personally never thought this card system was a good idea, and thought that making more robust skill trees was the way to go, because at least you knew that a supercharged level 30 Braton would have X Y Z passive benefits, and then ~5 mod slots for "other stuff" - if anything, we've gotten further from where we were in January/February when it comes to knowing what a certain player would have. 10 open slots and 60 mod points doesn't necessarily mean that a rank 10 Serration is there, even if it is the best-in-slot option (which shouldn't exist in the first place).

 

I liked the old mod system because of the diablo-esque feel of it, always having a chance for a rare super-drop that was better than anything else, rather than how today, everyone's Serration is the same, and such. But even that is inferior to the proposed system.

 

The whole attachments section makes me feel like playing Blacklight Retribution, but I think it would work great for Warframe.

 

The suggested trees kind of remind me of a Hawken meets FFX Skill Sphere kind of thing, and that's fine. Much better than what we have now. It doesn't have to be perfect from day 1 as long as it is designed to create more compelling choices and gameplay.

 

Warframe, MechWarrior Online, Tribes: Ascend, Hawken, etc, could all be great if handled differently.

 

A game like Bloodline Champions has incredible core gameplay that is held down by short-sighted and ignorant management decisions, effectively killing the game. Adding content does not make the game better. Increasing the number of guns and warframes does not improve the game. It just gives you another way to experience the same content. And when the "same" content is really the same ~5 mission types spread out across 200 locations on the star map, how much does it really matter? Where is the real gameplay?

 

It's perfect for tossing a 9 year old in front of your ps4 to be anesthetized, but some of us want to think and actually have challenging content where coordination and skill are required to succeed.

 

Right now, you can't even design content around a max-level frame or weapon, because who knows what it's really capable of? A level 30 Braton with no forma, no potato, and no serration is still a level 30 Braton. A supercharged level 30 Braton with six forma and a maximum rank mod of anything it could ever dream of is still a level 30 Braton.

 

If anything, this game feels best with unranked weaponry and unleveled frames in the Mercury/Venus areas. It's the closest it comes to tactical combat. The best fun I had in the game since I started up again in september or so was soloing a nightmare mission with no shields with nothing but a level 12 glaive. That happened a couple months ago.

 

The mastery system is currently designed to force people to level more weapons and warframes, to play the same content again and again, but for what? To arbitrarily increase a number on your profile that has almost no purpose right now...?

 

I want to love the game, I want to enjoy the game, give me a reason to play. Lephantis actually gave me a mild amount of hope, but then after doing the fight a couple times, it's just another bullet sponge. I was hoping, oh, tactics, we'll have Rhino stomp, and then...oh nevermind that's it. stomp and then hose it down with your guns. Enemies that take away player choice don't make the game good either though. Forced cooperation didn't work when Seekers used to throw latchers/rollers that immobilized people, and it was shot down fast.

 

I'm ranting here, but all I'm trying to say is that there should be content designed for players at an elevated level of play, and right now all the difficult is "fake difficulty" with the same boring AI on the first mission as it is on the 2000th mission, the only difference being how many bullets they can soak, and how much damage they put out.

 

Changing numbers doesn't make a game interesting. Look at the threads where people have 4+ hour survival missions, or hitting wave 200 on defense missions, with Nyx absorb and Nekros spawning more life support. The biggest issue they have is netcode/lag, and the game crashing, and, of all things, ammo drops flooding the map and not being able to be used fast enough. Even with builds specifically designed to waste ammo to get the drops out of there. Mutation mods, clip extensions, fire rate, etc... It's hilarious. This is probably the highest skill-ceiling the game will ever have, and that's very sad to me, because it could've been so much more. But alas, that's where we are right now.

 

Valkyr has been a complete fail, too. Should play like Headhunter from BLC with dual kama, but instead it's the most fragile warframe we have due to the imbalance between shield and armor. But I digress. The bottom line is I expect better. The game has not really improved in significant fashion since ~January 20th when the 20,000 shields thing was patch. (multiplicative stacking FTW).

 

Just to clarify in my edit: I love your ideas, and they aren't even that hard or unreasonable to do. But I am 99.98% sure that DE would fail to implement it if they even tried.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Volume

[alocrius]

Well, I re-read the post again. I still have some unanswered questions from my previous post. There is still no clear idea of how progression works in your system. Yes, its a tree, and mods now fall under electives in a division of categories that all get equal point investiture. I get that. But you have to concede your diagrams, as they are, clarify nothing really other than the division of categories. The symbology is not explained but needs to be. Bullet points with connectors need to iterate what is what so the changes you are advocating for aren't just a mystical alchemy of secret Warframe logic. It is in no way clear how the (powers, systems, utility) progression you're proposing is actually more conducive to customizability than what we have already.

 

I think you do have a very relevant point that if the game wasn't built around rng and drops, we would then have a proper foundation to build genuine gameplay from. I think this is the strong point of your argument. DE has to consider the de-emphasis of drops and rng moving forward. I believe that is crucial to Warframes evolution and dare I say, the well-being of the community.

 

And I am assuming you are just referencing the old mod tree to show a mod tree could work..? It would help if you clarified that because it's not readily apparent. The old tree is a convoluted mess and should be distinguished from what you are proposing, I hope anyway. Maybe I misunderstand. Also, again, please correct 'boots' where you mean to say 'boosts'. Anyway I dig it and I don't believe DE can sensibly ignore many of the systemic issues brought up here.

Edited December 2, 2013 by alocrius

[notionphil]

 Holding onto the Mod Card system is part of the issue keeping them from moving forward; because it was designed around the idea of artificial lengthening of the game. Retooling it would go against the purpose of it and would just be attempts to move it into the direction I proposed. By dropping mods and using something akin to what I have shown, you not only remove Mods in practice, but remove yourself from the idea of the word Mod. Negative connotations have arisen with the word Mod, to distance your game from it would be beneficial even on a non-gameplay level. I want them to succeed, just like everyone here. But a serious overhaul is in order.

 

To keep fiddling with the tired old system to make it run will become tedium to the point of exhaustion from the devs and playerbase. If you want to keep fiddling with the broken heap you are so attached to and fail to see the benefits of starting over, I really don't know what to say.

 

Now you are touting the mental and emotional benefits of massive change for change's sake? Your system is good because it is different?

 

In your created tautology, now other ideas that achieve the same goals are insufficient solely because they aren't as divergent (aka labor intensive) as your idea.

 

And your idea being labor-intensive is somehow good...even though you want the Devs to "be able to focus on deepening the rest of the game", right?

 

Any hopes that you would refine this concept, instead of defending it tooth-and-nail are wholly dashed.

 

Parting words -

 

Not everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy. And not everyone who agrees with you, your friend.

[-Henosis-]

This is brilliant, my friend. Brilliant. Something like this will really defeat the stagnating pool Warframe got sucked in. +1

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I'm not too keen, don't get me wrong I love the system it's just it just makes everything way too complicated and the devs pretty much got to re-vamp the entire game.

 

What i love about the card system is that it's simple. The problem with players is that people think that "oh we absolutely have to farm for these mods" which is true to some extent. The core and more necessary mods are common, after getting those, you can do whatever you want. I experiment with tons of different builds that have rendered my health rating to S#&$ and i was still able to kick &#! and went down at least twice in longer sessions.

 

Sure the skill tree is cool and all but I feel that warframe is not the kind of game where you play a certain role in the battlefield depending on your class and sub-class skill tree. And I feel that it wont refresh the game and make players want to play more, because then it's just a grind to max ur frame then "i'm done bleh". At least with the card system, you have the choice wether you want to stay where you are or go even higher. Personally if they add more thought process stuff, i might just get even more bored. 

 

Plus how would this system work with randoms? I usually play alone (using the matchmaking) and what if players don't have the optimal skill set for their class for that certain mission. Then i have to start relying on other people in order to complete the mission, hell na.

 

The combo system is awesome, as long as the player is able to use all the combos once they max their weapon. Speaking of weapons, add executions like in gears of war.

 

Weapon attachments are cool, but i would only like em for looks and maybe some visual and sound effects that's all.

 

The problem with skill trees is that it's overused, like really overused. Every damn game i play nowadays has damn skill trees.....

Edited December 2, 2013 by TraparDensity

[Jamescell]

Refreshing, this needs attention. Said everything I've ever wanted to say but in a much more direct way.

[ADDpillz]

@OP

 

I would love to hear your opinion on DE's logic on removing 2-month aged QT/rage builds right out of the game.

[theGreatZamboni]

@OP

 

I would love to hear your opinion on DE's logic on removing 2-month aged QT/rage builds right out of the game.

 

Could you clarify?