A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[bobafetthotmail]

I don't see why people are using this argument against the OP:

 

"Oooh your proposal to change the game won't make the fights more interesting! You SUXXORS"

 

I mean Duh! O RLY? The Artififial Intelligence in this game IS DUMB and no amount of changes to damage, procs, or mod system are going to counter that.

 

To make the AI smarter someone has to write better AI code with a decent military manual in hand. End of story.

 

But this does not make the rest of the game's infrastructure is good.

 

And yet OP chooses to ignore Kyte, again.

Probably because Kyte is repeating himself and is getting very emotional about it. OP is doing him the favor of letting him cool down a bit so he won't write stuff that will have him permabanned.

 

----------still quote from WiskeyGolf-----------------------

a freeform mod model like what we have now gives more scope to player creativity than skill trees or attachment slots. It allows more player emergence, like the QT/Rage combo.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, OP's system would allow MUCH more creativity, just because it has three different trees for different things (so my utility won't take away my defence or my attack mod space/power), and a great deal more slots.

To avoid player screwups it just needs a tree reset button.

 

 

It's easy to go "Oh, add a scope for zoom" when you're thinking about the Braton, but the mod system adds a lot of esoteric weapon/mod combinations that would be very hard (or impossible!) to depict visually.

 

(And how much artist time would that consume for every weapon/mod combination, at that)

Just adding technological-looking blob with a symbol to the weapon fro the stuff that does not need a scope or a longer/double barrel or whatever. That looks good.

 

And no, it won't consume a lot of time because attachments are low-poly and very small anyway. It's not an helmet.

 

The system will work fine even without a visual depiction.

Edited December 3, 2013 by bobafetthotmail

[Twilight053]

I'm not going to argue anything. Although, there are some things I disagree with the OP which struck me as 'nonsense and pointless' few times. As much as I'd like to disagree, I can't think up for better solution.

 

Have a +1, I'd like to see your version of Warframe.

 

And congratulations on making many people including me give in before arguing.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Twilight053

[Calayne]

But to fix that the loadout system is entirely irrelevant. What fixes it is better blocking, evasion and health recovery systems. There're threads about those already.

There's this fundamental misconception that the loadout system actually matters in the real gameplay. Skill tree or mods, once the mission starts and your abilities are chosen the difference is ephemeral.

If you want to fix gameplay, then fix gameplay.

 

---

 

Incidentally, I came to a small realization wrt attachments vs mods and having every mods/equivalent show a visual indicator in the weapon:

How are you supposed to depict Serration in a Kunai, Barrel Diffusion in a Shuriken, Eagle Eye in the Vectis, anything involving gun barrels in the Dera, Pressure Point, Whirlwind on Kestrel, Fast Hands/Quickdraw/etc, Split Chamber in Dread, Seeking Force in the Strun Wraith, all the anti-faction mods, ammo mutations, etc?

It's easy to go "Oh, add a scope for zoom" when you're thinking about the Braton, but the mod system adds a lot of esoteric weapon/mod combinations (plus some weird weapons, plus some weird mods) that would be very hard (or impossible!) to depict visually.

 

(And how much artist time would that consume for every weapon/mod combination, at that)

 

Admittedly, the visual enhancement were an emphasis from me, and not by the OP. Probably slapping a picture only on the Attachment screen would be good enough, though perhaps purely aesthetic attachments can be made as well: Kinda like helmets to our Warframes.

 

Back to the point: Yes, I agree with your first statement entirely. The key to gameplay enjoyment is heavily hinged on the very aspects of the game. But there are already a lot of posts about those, as you've pointed out. This is another thread, trying to reach that same goal from a different angle: It's all a big, open-world, multi-path journey, with the same end in mind: A better Warframe.

 

I think while this thread itself may not make any ground-shattering comments on AI scripting, team-based combat for our enemies and so on, it doesn't really have to: Those are addressed quite eloquently else where, and I've seen some pretty amazing threads about those even back in Damage 1.0, Update 7. 

 

So I think to cover that much ground, or expect this thread to cover that much ground, is quite unfair. We simply do not have the capacity to stretch ourselves so thin, when we're not the ones designing the game itself: This is ultimately just a suggestion, just as the hundreds of threads are. And I hope that DE does see these threads, and acknowledges them in their own discussion, at least, if not on the forums in person.

 

Many, many great ideas. So little resources. But I think all we need is a little patience.

[SniffYoBunnies]

DUUUUUUDE

I would love to get such a rework

The possibilities...O MAI GAWD!

All my +1s ! <3

[[DE]Megan]

Let's stray from insults and keep on topic.

[WhiskeyGolf]

I want to point out that I'm not entirely opposed per se to OP's aims and goals (hell he and I agree on gun leveling), but I am a skeptic, and thus I raise questions on points I am concerned and skeptical about, to see if OP has considered them and whether he will address this skepticism.

 

 

Easy workaround to your ME3 problem: enable free resets of skill tree at any time.

That's fine, but OP hadn't said anything about that, hence I was pointing out my concern. It isn't just an ME3 problem: there are only two games I've played where I've been able to respec at any moment I want (prior to entering battle) with little to no penalty of any sort: Warframe and Front Mission 5. (And even FM5 required me to have bought skills with EP, meaning that if I'd bought the wrong skills for my pilots, I was S#&$ out of luck.) Even ME3's singleplayer had a credit cost toward respeccing.

If there's the reset option, then that's fine - but like I said, OP hadn't said anything about free resets, so I thought I ought to bring it to his attention. I've had experiences with too many systems with skill trees that prevented resets when you'd built yourself wrong. (My first runs through Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Skyrim painfully come to mind. -_-)

 

Addressing game-play was(i thought) pretty obvious from the setup. I don't know what else he could do, since this is more or less a "foundation" topic.

I disagree, given that I don't see inventory being something that is crucial and directly affects gameplay - consider Mass Effect 2, which gameplay wise is superior to Mass Effect 3 not because of the inventory (inventory? What inventory?) but from the revamp in enemy and squad AI and the S#&$ you can do in combat. What I got from OP's post - what OP himself said - was that overhauling the inventory would lead to improved gameplay. Which is not necessarily the case, and is an assumption, as Rajko pointed out. (I don't see you disputing his statements to that effect, btw.)

 

The foundation of a game is the gameplay, of which inventory is but one aspect of the package.

 

 

-K let me just stop you right here.

Warframe is not mass effect. Do no compare and say "it should be like this" for any game. it just never ends well and the games really aren't similar enough to do so.

 

I'm just pointing out that part of why ME3 MP's enemies seemed to be such clever little buggers was partly due to the AI, and partly due to the smaller maps offering closer engagement ranges, and that the way the maps were designed allowed the player to be flanked at every corner, no matter where they chose to make their stand. While I agree that's not entirely applicable to Warframe, which is procedurally generated, my point, which perhaps I did not make clear enough, is that I do think that having more combat options from enemy mooks would better sell the impression that you're fighting nasty buggers giving as good as they get, as opposed to cannon fodder to grind your weapon of choice.

 

 

Now for tuckers kobolds, it's really just the illusion of difficulty thanks to the imaginary setting of D&D. The dungeon master in those games can make any character as cheap or as unfair as he wants to, with little penalty outside of the group just not liking him.

 

Applying that to video game ai is just stupid. No matter the company, programming such sophisticated ai would be next to impossible with the resources DE has, much less useless as the player wouldn't have any fun.

 

It was an illustration! I wasn't saying that was something that could be achieved! :p If we could get something like the Replica AI from FEAR, that would be awesome enough. I mean, the Replicas showed up in 2006, that was coming onto 8 years ago, so surely something of that level can be achieved today.

 

 

I don't see why people are using this argument against the OP:

 

"Oooh your proposal to change the game won't make the fights more interesting! You SUXXORS"

 

You're putting words in my mouth. Well, the You SUXXORS part, but I suppose I can allow a little leeway for some exxageration on your part...

 

The way I see things, the inventory and loadout, while a crucial element, are not the end-all be-all of gameplay. That's the gameplay experience, which really kicks in when the player enters the mission. Kyte's right in that aspect: once the mission starts, the differences between the loadout systems go away because now the player is completely focused on combat. Once the virtual bullets are flying, you aren't really thinking about how the loadout or modding system works, you're focused on killing things. (Or at least I am. :p)

 

 

I mean Duh! O RLY? The Artififial Intelligence in this game IS DUMB and no amount of changes to damage, procs, or mod system are going to counter that.

 

To make the AI smarter someone has to write better AI code with a decent military manual in hand. End of story.

 

But this does not make the rest of the game's infrastructure is good.

 

Hence my argument that improving the combat AI would be a more tangible improvement to the gameplay experience, as opposed to completely tearing down and rebuilding the loadout and inventory system. (As an aside, I find it amusing that Empiren thinks DE doesn't have the resources to program FEAR AI, but OP and supporters seem to believe that DE has the resources to tear down inventory and build it up all over again. ;D)

 

Also, the obverse of your point is also valid: it does not mean the rest of the game's infrastructure is bad. I freely admit there are many ways the game could be improved - I just differ in that I think improving combat AI would lead to more tangible results than improving the inventory. *shrug* But I think we're starting to derail somewhat from what OP intended.

 

 

Probably because Kyte is repeating himself and is getting very emotional about it. OP is doing him the favor of letting him cool down a bit so he won't write stuff that will have him permabanned.

I dunno. The way it looks to me, it seems like it's a double standard: OP is fine with repeating himself, but he won't address points that someone is repeating? Perhaps those points are being repeated because they were not addressed satisfactorily the first time.

 

...unless timezones mean that OP is asleep right now, which is always possible - it's 11.29pm as I type this. ^_^;

 

Actually, OP's system would allow MUCH more creativity, just because it has three different trees for different things (so my utility won't take away my defence or my attack mod space/power), and a great deal more slots.

To avoid player screwups it just needs a tree reset button.

 

*shrug* Respectfully, this is where we'll have to disagree - I still think that a freeform blank slate is superior to a tree for creativity, though I do agree that having the tree reset button is useful. Note, however, that resets were something OP apparently had not considered until I pointed it out, to which you and Empiren have gone with the same answer (nothing wrong with that, and I personally think that's fine - like I said, my only dog in this argument is questioning what I'm skeptical about).

 

 

The system will work fine even without a visual depiction.

 

Oh, mechanics-wise it will work fine, but I'm not entirely sure about the playerbase acceptance! :p Consider how now it's unthinkable for an RPG to skip rendering and showing the player's equipment (well, mostly in the west anyhow), or how in shooters with customisation features, all the attachments are modeled. The players seem to have a need to view their stuff.

 

Edited December 3, 2013 by WhiskeyGolf

[Calayne]

Thank you, Megan. Now I'm REALLY surprised you guys dropped by. :X But thanks for the moderation. 

 

And Kyte...

 

Your concerns are well-meaning, and I think you do have legitimate concerns: But I believe the OP does, in fact, improve on the overall foundation of the game. True, we haven't exactly gotten into improving the actual gameplay, but that does not mean it does not stand as the basis of the gameplay. The whole love for Warframe comes from the choices we can make. Limiting that choice to RNG and 8 mod slots can hurt the way the game can be played.

 

I'm not sure if the skill-tree-reset was mentioned, but I felt that it was best implemented similar to our mod system: with a Reset button and possibly three loadouts. Makes switching on the fly more simple: A left mouse button on a skill increases the level, a right mouse button decreases and so on. The ability to just clear one tree, the ability to just save one tree, there are many ways to do it.

 

But essentially, this is the foundation aspect Zamboni tries to address: Our ability to choose. It is a core component of our gameplay, and you cannot deny that. Our powers and weapons are what make us special, and make this game so immersive, even if various aspects of the game itself can be improved on. That's what the Beta is for, and that's what all the threads going on are for.

[Calayne]

 

I disagree, given that I don't see inventory being something that is crucial and directly affects gameplay - consider Mass Effect 2, which gameplay wise is superior to Mass Effect 3 not because of the inventory (inventory? What inventory?) but from the revamp in enemy and squad AI and the S#&$ you can do in combat. What I got from OP's post - what OP himself said - was that overhauling the inventory would lead to improved gameplay. Which is not necessarily the case, and is an assumption, as Rajko pointed out. (I don't see you disputing his statements to that effect, btw.)

 

The way I see things, the inventory and loadout, while a crucial element, are not the end-all be-all of gameplay. That's the gameplay experience, which really kicks in when the player enters the mission. Kyte's right in that aspect: once the mission starts, the differences between the loadout systems go away because now the player is completely focused on combat. Once the virtual bullets are flying, you aren't really thinking about how the loadout or modding system works, you're focused on killing things. (Or at least I am. :p)

 

 

*shrug* Respectfully, this is where we'll have to disagree - I still think that a freeform blank slate is superior to a tree for creativity, though I do agree that having the tree reset button is useful. Note, however, that resets were something OP apparently had not considered until I pointed it out, to which you and Empiren have gone with the same answer (nothing wrong with that, and I personally think that's fine - like I said, my only dog in this argument is questioning what I'm skeptical about).

 

 

Don't mind if I try to address this?

 

I think that Warframe's inventory does indeed play a huge role in the game now. Consider: A gorgon against infested. Terrible choice, even properly modded. Now, imagine bringing a Twin Vipers, in addition to Fangs. 

 

That by itself seems to suggest that the inventory does play a crucial role: It's near impossible to play a mission without the right load-out, after all! Again, respectfully, this game cannot be compared to Mass Effect in any way: They make all weapons viable, regardless of the enemy. There are difference, weaknesses and strengths to each, of course, but none of them are as game-changing as Warframe's system does. You can only focus on combat when you assume that your load-out is, at minimum, effective against your enemy, rather than debilitatingly weak. 

 

Our inventory is the BODY of this game, where the art, story (to be implemented) and combat is the heart and soul.

 

It's true that in some sense it does not directly affect the game, but it's not true that it does not affect game play, or make it more meaningful. I do believe it does so, primarily because now we don't have to hunt for mods just to add points into Redirection if we so wish. The trees, I think, may be misleading in some sense: We have no consensus on what branches to what; for all we know, it could be just as fluid as the current mod system, except now, in the mod system terms, you can equip 30 different defensive mods at rank 1 each, or something of a similar effect.

 

That is choice. 4 Mod slots is quite a tough decision, and I think limits the true potential of the game. This is the foundation he speaks of: There is no real freedom. There is always a build that is generally better than the rest, as our QT+Rage thing has proven: The moment trade went up, everyone went nuts for it. Bugger anti-toxin, bugger Steel Fibre, bugger Master Thief, and Rush, and Streamline, and Focus. I want to live forever.

 

That is a false choice: A choice you make because you have no other choice is not a real choice at all. In the new system, the foundation is laid where you can truly customize your Warframe with whatever stats you wish, powers and abilities, and the Utilities to truly enhance your play style. You can't do that with the Mod system, because then you have to give up some powers, or Redirection, or Vitality, or Flow, or Focus, or Streamline. THIS is the point of contention of the proposed change versus the mod system.

 

Edit: By the way, Whiskey, I agree completely with your AI suggestion to be more similar to games like ME, or FEAR and so on; Those are certainly good examples of AI, and is a standard I hope Warframe reaches. But forgive me if I say this, I don't believe the topic is centred on the AI of the game at the moment, but primarily, the basis of our growth for weapons and Frames. It is, however, a valid point you mentioned; it simply isn't relevant to the OP's intentions.

 

And to add on to the OP's point: He mentioned before that Powers in the Skill Tree system will also gain auxiliary effects, depending on how you allocate your points, and what you decide to specialise in: He gave the example of Loki's Mass Switch Teleport, which is a lovely idea, Exploding Decoys and so on. I personally love this idea, and can see great potential for the other Warframes as well: Nekros could certainly use some love here!

Edited December 3, 2013 by Calayne

[Aimop95]

reminds me of SWTOR build tree...but I like the melee system though.

 

My only concern would be the amount of rage people now have because they're mods are useless, and the time spent grinding (100+ hours for me) is all for naught.

 

But I really do like this idea.

[Cold_Arrow]

This is the best Rework I have read so far on the forums.

I See this as a very reliable system that Warframe could truly use.

 

I've got an few questions and notes though:

 

what are your plans for Forma and potatoes? 

 

Do you have any plans or aditions for the RNG grinding system since this idea might leave an gap in that mechanic? 

 

And how about still giving the corrupted and Void mods an special place since you are partially abandoning them for their uniqueness in mods, mod acquistion and the void and derelicts in general.

 

apart from that i can also see this as good way to improve Prime stuff in general and I personally realy apriciate your effort and thoughts

 

I hope DE will read this

[Calayne]

OH! I just reread some of the beginning comments: Something cropped up: Forma, right? Where do they fit in?

 

I suggest the following:

 

Rather than simply affecting the mod slot which it currently does, which, in effect, simply reduces mod costs, Forma will now grant bonuses on a skill of your choice for each tree: One forma gives you a choice to Specialise a skill in the Systems, Power and Utility. Basically, one each tree, per forma. You can only select one skill once/twice, or something to that effect, to Forma. That means repeated Formas will increase the number of skills you have Formaed, but cannot continuously increase the power of a single Skill.

 

This is simply an idea, though: I wouldn't know where to begin suggesting a bonus, or a limit.

 

As for Potatoes... I'm not too sure how that would be implemented, but I suggest the following: Rather than double the Skill points you have, you get a flat addition of skill points: Say, +10, or +15.

 

So if you Supercharge a Rank 0 frame, you'll have some points to play with, making an early potato more beneficial than a late one. 

Edited December 3, 2013 by Calayne

[WhiskeyGolf]

Don't mind if I try to address this?

 

I don't mind at all. Always good to see someone who can clearly articulate their message. XD I wish OP and his supporters were as clear as you are!

 

 

I think that Warframe's inventory does indeed play a huge role in the game now. Consider: A gorgon against infested. Terrible choice, even properly modded. Now, imagine bringing a Twin Vipers, in addition to Fangs. 

 

That by itself seems to suggest that the inventory does play a crucial role: It's near impossible to play a mission without the right load-out, after all! Again, respectfully, this game cannot be compared to Mass Effect in any way: They make all weapons viable, regardless of the enemy. There are difference, weaknesses and strengths to each, of course, but none of them are as game-changing as Warframe's system does. You can only focus on combat when you assume that your load-out is, at minimum, effective against your enemy, rather than debilitatingly weak. 

 

Our inventory is the BODY of this game, where the art, story (to be implemented) and combat is the heart and soul.

 

That is something very interesting you've brought up, which I have to admit I'd subconsciously overlooked. (Probably because Soma is my LMG and Saviour, lol. :p) I must admit I hadn't considered things from that aspect. That is a compelling argument, as opposed to previous attempts to justify the focus on the inventory.

 

 

[snip]

 

That is a false choice: A choice you make because you have no other choice is not a real choice at all. In the new system, the foundation is laid where you can truly customize your Warframe with whatever stats you wish, powers and abilities, and the Utilities to truly enhance your play style. You can't do that with the Mod system, because then you have to give up some powers, or Redirection, or Vitality, or Flow, or Focus, or Streamline. THIS is the point of contention of the proposed change versus the mod system.

 

Hmmm. You make an interesting argument there (...also that means I must have been the only person who traded for Continuity and Focus. ^_^;; ). Just a question though: wouldn't the same aims be achieved, in a much easier fashion, if the mod system was expended for Offensive, Defensive and Utility mods to have their own slot layouts? Say 6 each slots for Offense, Defense and Utility mods. *shrug* Might that not achieve similar aims, with less work?

 

Edit: Mad an Edit to respond to your Edit, btw. Editception, ho! ;D

 

Edit: By the way, Whiskey, I agree completely with your AI suggestion to be more similar to games like ME, or FEAR and so on; Those are certainly good examples of AI, and is a standard I hope Warframe reaches. But forgive me if I say this, I don't believe the topic is centred on the AI of the game at the moment, but primarily, the basis of our growth for weapons and Frames. It is, however, a valid point you mentioned; it simply isn't relevant to the OP's intentions.

 

And to add on to the OP's point: He mentioned before that Powers in the Skill Tree system will also gain auxiliary effects, depending on how you allocate your points, and what you decide to specialise in: He gave the example of Loki's Mass Switch Teleport, which is a lovely idea, Exploding Decoys and so on. I personally love this idea, and can see great potential for the other Warframes as well: Nekros could certainly use some love here!

 

Like I admitted, talking about AI is a bit of a derail. ^_^;; The way I saw things, IMO, was that we'd get better and more tangible improvements to the gameplay experience by improving the AI, though I also concede that for ME and FEAR, the smaller CQB-oriented map layouts work hand in hand with the AI, which is not something that can be replicated in Warframe, since Warframe's about the bigger maps.

 

For the auxilary effects... well, we'll see, I guess. I remain skeptical, though conceptually it does seem rather intriguing.

Edited December 3, 2013 by WhiskeyGolf

[Calayne]

I don't mind at all. Always good to see someone who can clearly articulate their message. XD I wish OP and his supporters were as clear as you are!

 

 

 

That is something very interesting you've brought up, which I have to admit I'd subconsciously overlooked. (Probably because Soma is my LMG and Saviour, lol. :p) I must admit I hadn't considered things from that aspect. That is a compelling argument, as opposed to previous attempts to justify the focus on the inventory.

 

 

 

Hmmm. You make an interesting argument there (...also that means I must have been the only person who traded for Continuity and Focus. ^_^;; ). Just a question though: wouldn't the same aims be achieved, in a much easier fashion, if the mod system was expended for Offensive, Defensive and Utility mods to have their own slot layouts? Say 6 each slots for Offense, Defense and Utility mods. *shrug* Might that not achieve similar aims, with less work?

 

Edit: Mad an Edit to respond to your Edit, btw. Editception, ho! ;D

 

 

Like I admitted, talking about AI is a bit of a derail. ^_^;; The way I saw things, IMO, was that we'd get better and more tangible improvements to the gameplay experience by improving the AI, though I also concede that for ME and FEAR, the smaller CQB-oriented map layouts work hand in hand with the AI, which is not something that can be replicated in Warframe, since Warframe's about the bigger maps.

 

For the auxilary effects... well, we'll see, I guess. I remain skeptical, though conceptually it does seem rather intriguing.

 

LoL, I'll let the Edit-ception end here: I've got enough problems with nested processes in programming! 

 

I'd like to focus on the mod system being expanded for Offensive, Defensive and Utility mods: Yes, certainly, it'd be easier to make that change. In fact, I believe I suggested a "Mod tree" system as an alternative to a complete overhaul, assuming we cannot make the changes the OP describes. Let me try to copy-paste it....

 

 

 

Onto the idea: Still separated according to Zamboni's system: Difference is, now there are two/three/four mods in each of the three trees. An additional one for the Warframe's Aura, and by default, they all have their Powers equipped: Just pump Fusion cores into them to level them up. 

 

Systems: Shields, Armor, Resistance, Health, as stated by Zamboni. This is generally where our "D" polarity mods will go. Vitality, Redirection, Damage resistance, Steel fibre, etc. (Maybe even Flow here, or in Powers, depending on your interpretation.)

 

Powers: For Power Variation, Duration, Range, Strength. This is generally where our "V" polarity mods will go. Spec damage and range? Blind Rage, Focus, Overextend, Stretch whatever it is. Streamline and Focus probably go here, despite their polarity.

 

Utility: For Stamina, Movement, Tech, Energy. This is generally where our "-" polarity mods go. For Rush, Quick Rest, Marathon, Intruder, etcetera.

 

 

I use "Generally" because there are a lot of mods, and I'm not sure what balancing would be like with this. But it more or less guarantees some variety, at least. Preferably, only three mods are allowed, meaning: 3 Systems, 3 Powers, 3 Utility, 1 Aura, 4 Powers; We effectively have 14 slots now. This is good, as now we don't have to feel like we only have to tinker with 2-3 slots left if we take all our Warframe powers, Redirection, Vitality and Flow.

 

This should be it. But while this is, indeed, an easier alternative to an overhaul, it doesn't really address what I feel may be problems to newcomers and veterans alike: You still need to hunt for these mods, which are among the hundreds and thousands. Many of these mods may be mods you don't want, or need, so would have little reason to keep! Yet, by virtue of being there, they are making it harder to get the mods you actually do want, and you're still limited to the 14 slots you have, if say, the Mod Tree system were implemented. Nearly double the Mod slots, too.

 

Alternatively, we invest the game in the Skill Tree format, where the potential is surely larger for customization; As a bonus consequence of not having 270++ mods, we can now more easily obtain, say, Attachments, Warframe customization options, other drops which are non-essential but nice to have. This is opposed to mods, which are essential to have, but hard to obtain (in some cases).

 

This is also a benefit for newbies: No longer do you have to guess where to obtain that Serration, Hornet Strike, Multi-shot and Redirection. In some ways, it's either already there for you, you simply need the rank to get it, or it's in the Market, as a blueprint.

 

At least, that's the idea.

 

As for AI.... I dream that one day, we'll truly feel like Space Ninjas +_+  Your enemies react fast, and you have to react doubly fast: Actions and interactions; Attacks and counter-attacks; Take cover or charge; Flank or retreat. These are the things I hope we'll be able to see implemented often in the game. It's a lofty dream, but hey, Christmas is coming!

[WhiteSteel]

I can see you've put some real thought into this, and you wrote it in a reasonable way, I felt no arrogance or self entitlement from your words, and that kept me going through the whole post, I was surprised I read the whole thing :O

 

I like the majority of your ideas, I might not completely agree with every single word, but this definitely is the kind of innovative thinking the game needs. My fear is that DE might not have the cojones to bring such radical changes...

Edited December 3, 2013 by WhiteSteel

[matrixEXO]

I can see you've some real thought into this, and you wrote it in a reasonable way, I felt no arrogance or self entitlement from your words, and that kept me going through the whole post, I was surprised I read the whole thing :O

 

I like the majority of your ideas, I might not completely agree with every single word, but this definitely is the kind of innovative thinking the game needs. My fear is that DE might not have the cojones to bring such radical changes...

I fear that it may take them 2 years to get it done, if they decide to do it. 2 years of sitting in the current system is torturous indeed. I really hope that DE just opens their studio for more people to join the development team so they don't have to rush through work all the time and start focusing on creating big things, like this rework here.

[Rajko]

Snip Snip Snip Snip

 

 

I'm less than one cup of coffee in still, so I will probably have to return to this, but I wanted to clarify that my intention wasn't to say that the backend progression gut-reno wouldn't improve the existing gameplay at all, just that it on it's own is not sufficient.  It IS something I got from reading the OP, but it's a little too between the lines and deserves direct mention that additional 'something' needs to go into the game in the wake of your concept, after the cruches are thrown out.  I really needs to be concurrant with the implementation of this concept to be successful.  Again though, that's implicit in your OP but a little too subtle.  I'm looking forward to Zamboni's thoughts about that.

 

To that end, I approve of deepening the melee system, as it will make existing content more rewarding, and also enhance gameplay throughout the life cycle of Warframe post Zamboni 1.0.  As a lot of people have said, more agility and active defense options like contextual evasion, just in time block mechanics, etc, would all expand on melee and improve the experience, and address some off topic issues like helpless loss of player agency.

 

It's not yet clear in Zamboni's WIP how free running and such will improve with the new system, but generally speaking I think that it has potential to do so, so long as it's not possible to destroy mobility via skill choice (Zamboni addressed that theme in the OP)  I'm curious about how this could work and want to read more on it.

 

On the topic of the weapons, the points that I want to see more clarification on are:

 

* How are/could attachments be attained?

* Further detail on asymmetry of loadouts 

 

I think the reason that it feels mod-like to me is that it retains much of the existing mod system in spirit, and the association creates difficulty for me in digesting the concept.  I see why it probably should, and recognize it's a WIP mockup, but I feel like it needs more evolution to mature as a concept.  This could just be because the ideas aren't fully described yet, but after coming back to my post to clean it up I realized that it also has to do with things like "ice damage" being a mod in the current system, so it conflates mods with the new system for me, and I find myself thinking of this concept in mod terms.  I look forward to the upcoming additional details.

 

My major concern is this:  this concept removes problematic design concepts, but doesn't deliver a complete replacement for what it removes.  To do that, Warframe needs an actual endgame experience that streamlines content additions like story elements and gameplay.  

 

* The run and gun and melee, and the mod system (or the skill tree) element is the How of it 

* There needs to be a What (additional blocks of gameplay) 

* There also needs to be a Why (Story elements)

 

Those additions to the game really need to replace the Tenno Reinforcements that we get so frequently, they need to be playable more than once, and then need to contribute to some type of progression.  

 

The frequent content updates should focus more on What we are doing and Why we are doing it, rather than what gun we get to use to do that What with.

 

That How is important.  This suggested rework does a good very good job of providing a way to take the how question and answer it.   By 'answer', I mean making it sustainable, because the progression system is no longer married to collecting stuff to increase your power.  Zamboni's concept as a whole is effective at that.  I regret that it took a lot of thinking on my part to really grasp what Zamboni is working to achieve here.

 

The major realization I had that sells Zamboni's concept to me, is that in the existing system, mods serve as both the How, and the Why.  We play to get mods to play to get more mods.  There's something very wrong with that circular model.

 

From here there has to be more conversation of the What and Why.  A lot more.

 

I'm writing this with the understanding that the end goal Zamboni has is to clear away any mechanic or system that can't grow continually.  I'm reading his rationale for that as "Warframe is fun, the art and world are enjoyable, and I want to see it continue to be playable no matter how much time I want to put into it". 

 

I'm assuming a bit here, but I do agree with that sentiment.  I greatly enjoy the game, and I want it to stick around and reward me for sticking around and playing it more than it currently does.  I also want to see my experience transition away from collecting mods and onto doing cool stuff with my friends in a fantastic space-ninja world.

 

Therefore, Zamboni's rework makes sense to me to as a means to an end, but I feel that it needs to more directly address the question of what happens next with the how and the why.  There has to be a gameplay delivery mechanism to replace the grind for progression element.  It's not because the suggestion is impossible, but because it doesn't take us from where Warframe is to where it needs to be to accomplish Zamboni's goal.  Yet.  

 

As far as that goes, the suggestion NotionPhil makes in his https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame/[/url] perfectly accomplishes the other half of what Zamboni is trying to do.  If you imagine Warframe with both implemented already, I'd be surprised if any player would find any thing to dislike.

 

It's a true shame that all of the story elements so far implemented are tied to events bounded by time, rather than gameplay.  The excellent work on voice overs for Ruk, Alad, Frohd, are all wasted because these events exist in a short span of real time, rather than as a story arc that is somehow accessible.  

 

Finally, in terms of longevity, Warframe needs to develop a method for players to create publicly available content and tell small stories or craft scenarios within the game.  Warframe has a large following of dedicated players.  If it can be done, the players themselves will keep each other playing, and paying, and the future existence of Warframe will have transitioned off of a continual stream of throw-away inventory items and onto extensible gameplay, expanded and guided by the devs and massively driven by the players themselves.  

 

I know the above needs fleshing out, I'll come back to it after I fully wake up. I'm also all over the place with you and Zamboni and stuff, sorry about that, I'll clean it up.  My brain just doesn't work until after 3 pm.

 

Edit:  I cleaned it up a little and attempted to respond directly to some more of Zamboni's rebuttal.  Also added a link, but I've no idea why it insists on looking like that.

 

Edit 12/6/13  I replaced a bunch of confusing stuff to be more clear.

 

Sum up:  I have minor quibbles about the system itself and major criticism related to this overhaul not taking Warframe completely to the destination of rewarding, sustainable, extendable gameplay.  I'm interested to hear Zamboni's feedback on the other points not yet addressed, like build diversity, and see more detailed exploration of weapon customization.

 

As an aside, that Ogris loadout snapshot is a great example of the problems the mod system has currently.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Rajko

[Calayne]

Oh my God. Plus one to that, Rajko. So many points that are just plain agreeable.

 

Particularly, I'm interested in community-created content: I've always wondered if we could do a Machinima-esque thing with Warframe. 

[bobafetthotmail]

I really hate the lack of a QUOTE button. REALLY.

 

You're putting words in my mouth. Well, the You SUXXORS part, but I suppose I can allow a little leeway for some exxageration on your part...

 

The way I see things, the inventory and loadout, while a crucial element, are not the end-all be-all of gameplay.
 

I was making it generic to gather other posters as well.

 

Anywyay I agree. The point I was trying to make, is that "Improve Enemy AI" is a wildly different thing, and should be addressed outside of a thread about inventory and item progression.

 

And also what Calayne said. This is a game where everything can be heavily modded and weapons are supposed to be different, so yeah, you will need a good system for that.

 

I dunno. The way it looks to me, it seems like it's a double standard: OP is fine with repeating himself, but he won't address points that someone is repeating?

He repeats himself with other users. Once he answered already, it makes no sense to copy-paste over and over the same post just because someone keeps insisting that his system is better. This is Zamboni's thread after all.

 

*shrug* Respectfully, this is where we'll have to disagree - I still think that a freeform blank slate is superior to a tree for creativity,

This is just an illusion. His system basically locks in place all or most usual suspects mod cards every build can't do without and gives points to level them as the user or item accumulates XP.

 

A freeform... is not really more free. Because you will then need to load the usual suspects (Focus, Flow, Redirection), and other random power booster mods meant for high level players, that are frankly better served by a mechanic like his system. Yes, you could make different mod slots, but this way it's less play for grind (to get the damn mods, as there are less and the cores stop being necessary) and more for fun, or for leveling/mats anyway.

 

Yes, needs to be coupled with good AI or this will focus the attention even more on how &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; the mobs are.

 

Oh, mechanics-wise it will work fine, but I'm not entirely sure about the playerbase acceptance!

Because now all mod cards we use have a great huge gargantuan impact on the weapon's aesthetics, apart from the elements on melee.

You see lots of people complaining 'bout dis?

 

Anyway, I was saying that making them 3D objects would have lower priority, and I'll add that it SHOULD replace the bullcrap weapons they release every few weeks.

U13.1.4 is out! Look how cool are now the Attachment X, Y and Z! Find them in the void!

(drop chances temporarily reduced because of Prime access reasons) no wait... :)

[Chupacabra]

The first rule of Fight lab is, you tell everyone about fight lab.

 

The second rule of Fight lab is, you tell EVERYONE about fight lab.

[Meatuchu]

I wasn't aware i was about to read a college thesis paper but this was well written and impressive. Good luck having the attention of the Devs though.

[tmtke]

Just a question though: wouldn't the same aims be achieved, in a much easier fashion, if the mod system was expended for Offensive, Defensive and Utility mods to have their own slot layouts? Say 6 each slots for Offense, Defense and Utility mods. *shrug* Might that not achieve similar aims, with less work?

 

 

I have a topic on this, nearly exactly the same as you suggested, except instead of polarities, my mod system proposal would tie mods to warframe parts. Read  & comment if you like: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/141224-idea-skill-mod-system-tuning/

 

As for the OP - I still would like to see some working examples (actual warframe, weapon designs) because I know from experience that an ideal looking design without examples can be misleading. And statements like gameplay will be better because of refactoring the inventory/skill/melee system, sounds a bit exaggerated to me.

I was working on games for years, and the road from the (seemingly) perfect idea to the real, actual result is really bumpy and the two are always perfectly different. The ideas you think will work at the beginning are not working, and vice versa :)

[NeroUmbra]

I can hear the screaming already... "What?  I HAVE to spend points on utility? Why in blazes would I want to do that?  It doesn't let me kill any faster, in fact, I'm slower now than I was before *insert update that implements this system* because I HAVE to gimp myself! *ragequit*"

 

Right now a warframe has 30 points, 60 if potatoed and what, 74 with a maxed aura?  if under your proposed system a player cannot hit what he has min-maxed to achieve prior to your system there will be screaming.  

 

Regardless of how much better you think it will be if everyone must include some utility in their build there will be complaints. 

 

An option that comes to mind is something slightly different. Still have multiple trees, but each with a different focus.  Maybe something along the lines of physical, energy and oh, maybe movement.  Energy would have shield and energy related abilities, physical would affect armor and hp and movement would boost movement and agility.  Obviously there would be frame specific tweaks (optionally give each base ability of a frame it's own tree)

 

What it boils down to is if I don't want to take a mod now because I prefer other mods, why in blazes would I be happy that I was FORCED to take it (or just not spend the points...) and had less capability than I had prior to this being implemented?

 

Yes, your system will cut down on grind as all the mods will be in the tree somewhere.  What it does NOT do is improve freedom to choose, in fact it restricts it.  If I have x points to on each category and I can't move those points around my freedom to choose has been reduced, not improved.

[Netami]

I can hear the screaming already... "What?  I HAVE to spend points on utility? Why in blazes would I want to do that?  It doesn't let me kill any faster, in fact, I'm slower now than I was before *insert update that implements this system* because I HAVE to gimp myself! *ragequit*"

 

Right now a warframe has 30 points, 60 if potatoed and what, 74 with a maxed aura?  if under your proposed system a player cannot hit what he has min-maxed to achieve prior to your system there will be screaming.  

 

Regardless of how much better you think it will be if everyone must include some utility in their build there will be complaints. 

 

An option that comes to mind is something slightly different. Still have multiple trees, but each with a different focus.  Maybe something along the lines of physical, energy and oh, maybe movement.  Energy would have shield and energy related abilities, physical would affect armor and hp and movement would boost movement and agility.  Obviously there would be frame specific tweaks (optionally give each base ability of a frame it's own tree)

 

What it boils down to is if I don't want to take a mod now because I prefer other mods, why in blazes would I be happy that I was FORCED to take it (or just not spend the points...) and had less capability than I had prior to this being implemented?

 

Yes, your system will cut down on grind as all the mods will be in the tree somewhere.  What it does NOT do is improve freedom to choose, in fact it restricts it.  If I have x points to on each category and I can't move those points around my freedom to choose has been reduced, not improved.

 

 

You sir are an idiot ;x He specifically said there's 3 separate trees and each gains their own points. You dont give up jack and you're free to pick whatever you want.

 

Anyway I could write a friggin essay about this but busy atm so I'll just write overall great idea surely impossible to do by DE but it's still nice the only problem I've got is the part with melee... way too much Remember Me .. sorry but that game sucked balls and the combat system was terrible =/

Edited December 3, 2013 by Netami

[NeroUmbra]

You sir are an idiot ;x He specifically said there's 3 separate trees and each gains their own points. You dont give up jack and you're free to pick whatever you want.

 

Anyway I could write a friggin essay about this but busy atm so I'll just write overall great idea surely impossible to do by DE but it's still nice the only problem I've got is the part with melee... way too much Remember Me .. sorry but that game sucked balls and the combat system was terrible =/

I read that section three times before writing my post.  Nowhere does he say how many points were in each tree.  My assumption is that the max points currently available, 74, would be split between the trees.

 

If I missed it quote him and prove me wrong.  If not, I expect an apology.

 

edited for clarity.

Edited December 3, 2013 by NeroUmbra

[Rajko]

I read that section three times before writing my post.  Nowhere does he say how many points were in each tree.  My assumption is that the max points currently available, 74, would be split between the trees.

 

If I missed it quote him and prove me wrong.  If not, I expect an apology.

 

edited for clarity.

 

I think it was left intentionally vague for the specific values, to allow balance and design a freer hand during alpha testing of the new system, but I feel certain that somewhere in here it's stated (thought it was in the OP, but it might have been a refinement posted later by Zamboni) that the point pools are individual to each category and each level gains an amount of points for each.  I think the base value suggested was 1 point in each category.

 

It wasn't clear and hasn't yet been made clear whether the existing frame rank cap of 30 is retained, but for simplicity's sake assume that the proposal only changes what it must, so I'd deduce from that, you get 60 points per pool.  The extra 14 are generated by a mod, so I don't see that being retained.