A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[TheDoctah]

This a system I don't think DE will be able to top in 100 years of development. This is a MILLION times better than our mod system, the amount of customization you would get with your warframe and weapons seems like endless fun. DE needs to hire you for thinking up such a well thought out system. Good on you man, I really hope DE wakes up and sees how much BETTER this system would be over our current one and probably any other other system they can come up with in the future. I also say more power to you for pointing out how dumb the reason was for Ember's overheat nerf. Your post was really great to read, OP.

Edited December 6, 2013 by TheDoctah

[Dran]

To clarify what I mean about 'empty' rank ups making a system bigger: 

If a player can increase their power by a predictable amount every level, in a game such as an RPG where you can spend stat points, no level is 'empty', but the system can be really boring if there aren't well crafted rules for the stats. Take Maple Story vs Ragnarok Online.

both let players increase stats by x per level, and let players drop points into skills x per level.

Maple Story's stats scale damage by (stat x attack), and players basically dump into one stat, increasing their damage by a percentage every level.

 

Ragnarok has stat calculations that are more complex, where putting into STR gives bonus melee damage every 10 points, dex and AGI also boost attack speed, and other interconnected things, where big boosts are come across at key points (such as 40, 50, 60 STR or INT, every 7 or 8 points of AGI, unlocking a new powerful skill, or hitting the level where you can equip a new piece of gear) It's properly calibrated so that most levels a player can gain 1-2 stats per level, which mostly have minimal effect except at those key points.

 

Ragnarok's leveling and progression has more levels that could be considered 'empty levels' than Maplestory's (even though the player still progresses, but not nearly as much), but they're there to connect the bigger ones by fitting inside the existing leveling system. While warframe's mod system might not be as well planned out as Ragnarok's stat system, it hints towards that kind of progression rather than something like "every level you get +1% damage", where it's predictable and simple, a 'smaller' system. Having 'connecting' levels (when done properly) creates a bigger system by making those connecting levels important for the player to make the right decisions planning their builds, so that they can get those big increases just a little faster. Right now the only way that 'empty levels' connect anything in warframe is offering a little bit of mod power that the player can't do anything with.

 

There is a lot of room for improvement in the mod system, since weapons can be completely rebuilt as needed, and another system attached to item level that has well planned big-and-small increases (or just more predictable small increases) would synergize well with what already exists, like what had existed before with the skill trees, where items could get a bonus to Damage/Magazine/Crit/Attack Speed every level, or bringing back the upgrade tree and allowing players to still distribute one point per level into an item onto that tree, as well as slotting mods.

 

(So yeah I agree about having another system on top of the mod system for letting players get stronger)

 

I understand what you mean now. Those were very solid examples indeed.

 

The Maple Story example is exactly the kind of path that I would try to avoid in my concepts.

As for Ragnarok, which in a sense resemble Warframe, is not bad, but I think we can do better.

 

 

Some of you may hate me for bringing this name up: Let's take Blizzard's World of Warcraft as another example:

 

If you have played WoW during the Vanilla - Cata era, their talent trees were complex, but actually pretty straight forward: certain tiers have certain talents that you simply must pump points into if you want to be competitive. Just like the Maple story example - you get points for every level, but you have little to no choice on where to put them in because 1 point off the cookie cutter build means 10% less dps on the raid boss.

 

Moving onto MoP expansion, they did a huge make-over on the talent tree system: get rid of all the 5% dmg, 10% speed, 15% hp...etc talents, and replace them with stuffs that actually add variety and options to your gameplay: a new utility skill, adding new effects to your abilities...etc

Granted, they were far from perfect, but they can serve as a lesson on how to make a fun talent tree that is not just "you get 1% more damage for 1 point in this"

 

 

These are different games with different systems and reasons for said systems. But they can serve as good lessons on character power progression - what should be utilized and what should be avoided. I really hope someone at DE is reading and taking notes on all of this :)

[BL4CKL1STED]

I understand what you mean now. Those were very solid examples indeed.

 

The Maple Story example is exactly the kind of path that I would try to avoid in my concepts.

As for Ragnarok, which in a sense resemble Warframe, is not bad, but I think we can do better.

 

 

Some of you may hate me for bringing this name up: Let's take Blizzard's World of Warcraft as another example:

 

If you have played WoW during the Vanilla - Cata era, their talent trees were complex, but actually pretty straight forward: certain tiers have certain talents that you simply must pump points into if you want to be competitive. Just like the Maple story example - you get points for every level, but you have little to no choice on where to put them in because 1 point off the cookie cutter build means 10% less dps on the raid boss.

 

Moving onto MoP expansion, they did a huge make-over on the talent tree system: get rid of all the 5% dmg, 10% speed, 15% hp...etc talents, and replace them with stuffs that actually add variety and options to your gameplay: a new utility skill, adding new effects to your abilities...etc

Granted, they were far from perfect, but they can serve as a lesson on how to make a fun talent tree that is not just "you get 1% more damage for 1 point in this"

 

 

These are different games with different systems and reasons for said systems. But they can serve as good lessons on character power progression - what should be utilized and what should be avoided. I really hope someone at DE is reading and taking notes on all of this :)

Actually, I'd say that the new WoW trees are much worse because they removed all the filler, not better.

It was better before with the filler, but the talent trees they built had the problem that they were poorly laid out, and forced players to take too many requisite skills to get the game changing skills, which basically said stuff like 'if you want ability x, you must get +5% crit rate', and that's where it's bad.

 

A better way would just be neededing to have dumped enough points into that tree, rather than into specific skills, and have much flatter trees, so there are more options to choose from at any level.

 

And cookie cutter builds happen when a system is so small, and capped off in some way, where players are forced to min/max in order to get anything done.

 

Warframe doesn't have that problem, there's no need to min/max in the endgame unless you are trying to set records. You can casually play at a high level without much issue, even if your weapons aren't built perfectly, as long as they are mostly good. The only time that builds really matter is when you're trying to go 50 waves into a defense, or stay in a survival for two hours. Hopefully any changes that actually get added keep the game this way.

[RazorTip]

Good idea, good post, good thread.

Here, have a +1 to add to your upvotes.

 

To be honest, I always assumed that Warframe would have proper leveling and unlocking precepts as a tree of sorts instead of this mod card crap.

[Halisi]

This seems like a good idea, however we both know DE wont do this.

Sad truth is DE are not a good enough Dev to make this kind of substantial change this far down.

 

Platinum has been already spent on many things that would disappear , deals with companies like Sony stand in the way.

There are too many things  that right now are out of DE' hands to do this kind of change.

Even if they decided to try this which again the odds based on their history are abysmal , it would take months if not years to implement based again on their history. Damage 2.0 did little with the games mechanics yet it took them months... and achieved little.

 

 

I just don't see this happening for Warframe...

their next game once Warframe fizzles out could do with this system.

DE has already shown that they are willing to retroactively compensate people for changes related to platinum purchases. What deals do DE have other Sony. Sony has no power over Warframe, DE_Steve even said that in one of the livestreams. DE can do what they want to it, it's their game.The only power if any that Sony has is over what happens to the PS4 version of warframe.

[Dran]

Actually, I'd say that the new WoW trees are much worse because they removed all the filler, not better.

It was better before with the filler, but the talent trees they built had the problem that they were poorly laid out, and forced players to take too many requisite skills to get the game changing skills, which basically said stuff like 'if you want ability x, you must get +5% crit rate', and that's where it's bad.

 

A better way would just be neededing to have dumped enough points into that tree, rather than into specific skills, and have much flatter trees, so there are more options to choose from at any level.

 

And cookie cutter builds happen when a system is so small, and capped off in some way, where players are forced to min/max in order to get anything done.

 

Warframe doesn't have that problem, there's no need to min/max in the endgame unless you are trying to set records. You can casually play at a high level without much issue, even if your weapons aren't built perfectly, as long as they are mostly good. The only time that builds really matter is when you're trying to go 50 waves into a defense, or stay in a survival for two hours. Hopefully any changes that actually get added keep the game this way.

 

I suppose that's another matter of personal preferences. I enjoyed the new talent trees more than the old ones. But enough of that :)

 

The point is I'm proposing a mixture of both approach: a Skill/Talent Tree system that offers gradual gaining of power/utility, while keeping the "sweet spot" effect of the current Modding system.

 

And let's not forget the OP's ideas and concepts that would add even more variety and flexibility to customization in general in Warframe.

 

Here's to hoping this won't be a wasted effort :)

[Kilzoth]

Fantastic read, really well put together. 

[TisEric]

DE has already shown that they are willing to retroactively compensate people for changes related to platinum purchases. What deals do DE have other Sony. Sony has no power over Warframe, DE_Steve even said that in one of the livestreams. DE can do what they want to it, it's their game.The only power if any that Sony has is over what happens to the PS4 version of warframe.

willing to compensate for their mistakes you mean.

quite different to returning hundreds of dollars worth of platinum for every mod pack ever bought.

Thats if they even have that kind of statistics to pull off without incident.

 

True the game is still 100% DE' but that doesn't mean they can just change what ever all willy nilly.

Sony might not want the changed warframe on the system , the change alone might alienate the few who actually play it on ps4s.

There are lots of things to have in mind and consider to make a sweeping change to the entire games foundation.

 

other deals might include exclusive mods or what ever for the thousands of sites that they partner with.

all in all it might just be a major PR disaster for them to just say "F*** it , we gona tear it all down" they might get shunned from future opportunities.

You dont have the luxury of saying no to all these fly deals as a small studio that is making a free 2 play title.

[NikolaiLev]

Yet another person who cares about Warframe far more than the developers.

 

This is a ridiculously quality post, and it's sad it hasn't come in the form of a developer blog.  But if you ask me, everything DE has done indicates they care about making money, not about making a deep game.

[Rajko]

Yet another person who cares about Warframe far more than the developers.

 

This is a ridiculously quality post, and it's sad it hasn't come in the form of a developer blog.  But if you ask me, everything DE has done indicates they care about making money, not about making a deep game.

I disagree with that conclusion about developer intent, and honestly aspersions against the developer don't have a place in constructive criticism or feedback.  

 

It's unfortunate that key, core components have been overhauled since open beta launch, and that some need further work or re-work, but as they are self publishing Warframe out of dedication to the concept, it comes down to trolling to blow off frustrated steam like this.  

 

Numerous suggestions from the community have shaped the game.  There is a chance that this thread itself will inform the development of the game, too.  And a bigger chance with every upvote, really.  Especially since it's stayed near the top of the Gameplay feedback for a very long time.

 

It's a simple truth that the game has to pay for it's own development.  There isn't anything truly unsavory or concealed about that.  Gameplay depth has also steadily increased, even if it isn't in the realm of a complete, polished title yet.

 

Talking about a team of people who are self publishing this game as F2P and refer to that process as "healing their psychic wound" from not being able to put this project into the hands of players the way they wanted to... That's caring and dedication.  That's also why i think threads like this are so great, because DE has every reason to listen to the players and solve for excellence.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Rajko

[theGreatZamboni]

This is a place holder. I was away for a bit and will have to take time to catch up. Sorry about that. I did not intend to leave some of your concerns, questions and criticisms go unanswered for that long. I would like to keep the discussion moving ahead as we seem to be going in a more positive direction all around.

[Rajko]

@Zamboni  

 

Cleaned up my response post further, hopefully it's clearer.  Looking forward to further discussion.

[WhiteCopain]

 

Basing player power on level is a wholly $&*&*#(%& idea because it restricts who players will want to play with based on who has the most tenno points.

The reason people are saying you don't take criticism is because you seem to ignore that one piece of information, and insist your system is better because it letting them design content for players of specific levels is apparantly more important then not fragmenting the player base.

 

The starmap exists, and you can CHOOSE what missions to play, and what level of enemies to fight.

They don't need to only design content around player level, since players get to choose the enemies they play against, and that is a pretty massive strength of this game.

 

Killing level 1 or level 20 grineer drop from the same base mod pool, the only difference is the affinity gain for weapons, and what resources are being found (which a lot of the early resources can be found on later planets as well).

 

It's obvious that DE was trying to create a system that is as agnostic to player level as it can be for the most part.

If you're going to build content that's always around the player's level, why give them a level in the first place?

 

I can make a reply to that if you want.

 

You're an idiot. The suggestion is that player level controls their power as to not let a guy on the second planet of the game automatically one shot every single normal mob in Pluto because he bought Nova and got her 4 like he currently can.

 

There was never a point in which he said "You can no longer party with your friends and go to Pluto!" You still can. And you'll still be able to play there and do stuff, it'll just take (and stay with me here) skill. Remember what skill is? It's not having a god Warframe that can't be hurt and one shots everything. Just because you go to Pluto as a low level doesn't mean you suddenly can't fight anything. More so with Damage 2.0 a new player can still fight plenty in Pluto, he just won't auto kill everything because of mods.

 

There are no level one billion mobs currently. So there's nothing in the game that's a challenge to the Tenno who have any decent mods and abilities. T3 Defense is a joke if you have a full team of any decent Warframes and something that people with skill have solo'd, and that's supposed to have the hardest mobs in the game (That or survival, but same thing really).

 

You might want this game to involve no skill, but I want the game to take skill to play. I get it, you really don't care about the future of the game and you just want to press 4 for shiny until you get bored and never come back to Warframe, but some of us want more then that. Like the OP.

[NikolaiLev]

I disagree with that conclusion about developer intent, and honestly aspersions against the developer don't have a place in constructive criticism or feedback.  

 

It's unfortunate that key, core components have been overhauled since open beta launch, and that some need further work or re-work, but as they are self publishing Warframe out of dedication to the concept, it comes down to trolling to blow off frustrated steam like this.  

 

Numerous suggestions from the community have shaped the game.  There is a chance that this thread itself will inform the development of the game, too.  And a bigger chance with every upvote, really.  Especially since it's stayed near the top of the Gameplay feedback for a very long time.

 

It's a simple truth that the game has to pay for it's own development.  There isn't anything truly unsavory or concealed about that.  Gameplay depth has also steadily increased, even if it isn't in the realm of a complete, polished title yet.

 

Talking about a team of people who are self publishing this game as F2P and refer to that process as "healing their psychic wound" from not being able to put this project into the hands of players the way they wanted to... That's caring and dedication.  That's also why i think threads like this are so great, because DE has every reason to listen to the players and solve for excellence.

 

You might see it as venting off steam.  But just because it's negative doesn't mean it isn't a valid criticism.  It isn't hard to see all of the features that add nothing to gameplay, yet pose an excellent monetization value.  That's bad.  That means they're not selling the game, they're selling the ability to mitigate the game's flaws (i.e. grind).

 

I could say fanboying is just as worthless to post.  But I don't like to say what a person can and can't post, beyond outright insulting others (because that's just rubbish).

 

DE likely has a couple people who actually care about their game.  It's even possible that they just don't realize how many flaws the game has.  How grind actually isn't fun.  Do you think any of the developers deal with grind?  Even if they played without everything unlocked (which is possible, I've seen it before) they've been playing for long enough that they've gotten past the grindiest stages of the game.

 

But developer bias is still a problem.   The fact remains that actual content and gameplay is being ignored in favor of more and more grind.  Just look at the latest game mode: Invasion.  You get a reward based on missions repeated, where the missions are really just Exterminations, except you can be even lazier.

 

Damage 2.0 created more problems and the only thing it left us was a necessity to have 3 weapons instead of 1, which means we need more weapon slots unless we absolutely can't stand variety.

 

I'm sorry for not coddling the developer team.  But I'm not a very satisfied customer.  Typically I'd just take my cash elsewhere.  But Warframe has things I like that I can't find anywhere else, like a fast-paced acrobatic combat style.  So I want the game to improve.

 

I just wish DE did, too.  Or knew how to do it.  The answer isn't "make more money."

Edited December 6, 2013 by NikolaiLev

[Rajko]

Snip

Fair enough, but the disagreement I have with your previous comment was with the statement that the developer doesn't care, not the negative commentary.  I'm sorry if that wasn't more clear.  There is plenty of justification for everything else you've said, and I agree, simply posting "yay awesome" is even more pointless.  That is what the upvote button is for.  

 

There is plenty of evidence around to prove they care very much about this title.  

 

Other than that, though, I don't object at all your opinions, whether I agree or not. 

Edited December 6, 2013 by Rajko

[tmtke]

About developer intent: they have to balance between their beloved idea AND making money from it. They are more free than we were when I was working for a game studio. Almost every decision slipped out of our hands, resulting a bad product from a generally good idea. DE with the microtransaction model can guarantee the income what is needed for further development. Now, on the QA part, every development team need testing. But testing the game (which is based on predefined test cases) thoroughly can't guarantee that every issue will pop up. This is why a massive online game needs public beta testing. This is what we are participating in actually. Modifying the game mechanics can only be done really carefully, and can be a lengthy process. Modifications like the OP is almost impossible in a few weeks, even months. Every test cases, which are depending on item strength, variation, all the tables, all the data can be flushed in the toilet. I'm not telling what would be the best for the future of warframe, but as NikolaiLev addressed above, I personally love the warframe concept, even if it has flaws. If I'm looking at for example Uncharted 3, which can be done in two days and it costs around 60$, warframe costed me half of that money (well 75% discount for 2k plats), and I'm playing it for nearly 300 hours. It is friggin awesome, guys. Since Quake 3 I wasn't near to be hooked up with a game that much. Btw, Q3A and Unreal Tournament had their open beta stage also :)

[GSrevolution]

Have another upvote. Not that you need any more OP... you've got nearly 400.

Edited December 8, 2013 by GSrevolution

[Flatus]

Very good read. I COMPLETELY agree with the essential mod problem that we currently have and that it takes away from the gameplay. It just shouldn't be there. Or well, I shouldn't say "shouldn't" because DE makes the game, and they of course want to make game they themselves want to make. Hopefully they'll agree with the mod problem though (I'm not sure if it should be called a problem).

 

I dont know if this was already discussed or if I missed it in the opening post, my eyes crossed out a bit because I'm tired, but one thing about f2p game and playing for the sake of gameplay (in this case going to missions and killing enemies in various ways) is that playing for the sake of gameplay is unfortunately not that hooking. Farming and grinding for new mods and new levels on the other hand is. It addicts and creates needs for things that make our experience easier, better or more powerful, needs that some of us are ready to pay money to be filled. It doesn't require too much thinking and is very clear goal. "I want that certain mod so I will do more damage" is very very simple way to make one to spend tons of time to the game, and ultimately spend money to the game. Which is one of the goals of the game, to make money for people who work on the game.

 

Thoughts about that? How would revamped core systems still give the feeling of "I want to play for next 1000 hours because ____"?

I'm not disagreeing with anything, just hopefully adding to the discussion. I'm very tired as well so I could've missed some points.

[Omegaboot]

I thought what I was saying was obvious (though obviously it's not the case :p): right now, because we only have mod cards, the players deal with no visual aesthetic representations. Once we start making attachments, however, players are going to start to want visual representations of the stuff they're adding to the guns. Now, in modern FPSes, you kinda can get away with that by everything having rails and using Picatinny attachments, but obviously Warframes guns are all very different from each other, and it's going to be tricky to find an attachment that looks right with all weapons.

 

Unless we go the route JRPGs go, where attachments and other things you equip aren't always evident, but you get the stat bonuses. *shrug*

Or we could go the route of some other shooters, with attachments being unique to any given model (or series) of weapon. I hope not, but I felt I should mention the possibility.

[RedDirtTrooper]

I would play the game you describe, the one Warframe could be, for YEARS. No joke.

[Sonoka]

DE hire this man.

Actually no you need to be working at like, Google or something.

If anyone can fix the broken Youtube system, it's you.

[Scintilus]

^Apple is overrated. Btw I just watched the E3 Conference video of Warframe where Steve referenced "Mass Effect and Borderlands". So yea I guess they could implement some features from those games. Also Warframe have ironically almost the same HUD as in Borderlands 2. I'm going to post my own version of Waframe in the Future when I get spare time.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Volkstein

[Sonoka]

I would probably quit the game if this happened. I'm not really willing to see another huge change in the game mechanics.

I'll quit the game if it doesn't happen soon.

[BETAOPTICS]

Why did I find out about this just now?

[zephyrdragoon]

This is a fantastic, well written, well conveyed, well meant post, OP. I enjoyed reading it, something I do not often experience on forums. I hope it gets implemented, even partially implemented. I'm still fathoming what it would do to certain frames and weapons.