A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Feauce]

Which is precisely what the new system will offer you too.

Again, being awfully presumptuous.

[Rajko]

To think his suggestion has not crossed my mind is incorrect. The reason his suggestion was not expanded upon by me is simply because it retains mods. Mods will still be in the RNG, sharing space with materials and other drops. If you move the customization of your modifiers to a craft able and more attainable system, you once again put the focus on how you play rather than what mods you do or do not have. Most of the counter points being made are addressed, though not in big red text. I made sure to be clear in the reasoning behind why I would go to such lengths to showcase this point. His main point is "Why just not make mod slots". Ok, then you still have to farm excessively. Some farming will be inherent, but to make it the focus is ludicrous. His suggestion of awarding mods based on Mastery Rank, is in my idea. Its called the Precepts. Except you never have to forgo using one of your powers for something like Redirection. Which cycles back to "make mod slots". But again, we are trying to remove excess from the RNG and refocus on the gameplay.

 

As for this being "too big a step to take". I have already explained why something akin to this is necessary in other posts, in this thread. If not exactly my suggestion, something needs to be done. What Notion suggests is only a band aid on a bleeding heart. My suggestion is invasive surgery, that fixes the problem.

 

I do not intend to imply anything re: your process or thinking.  I recognize this is conceptual rather than an itemized overhaul suggestion, but some things are still confusing me.

 

It's not clear how it might be implemented to borrow from the power of, say, fireball to further enhance an aspect of overheat.  It looks to me like the player would simpley allot a point value against their preferred skill, to receive a net boost of it's effects.

 

I'm very unclear what your precepts are, and the name was originally confusing to me as Sentinels currently use abilities called precepts.

 

This would appear to tie progression to mastery, mastery retains it's ties to item collection, and tie the progression ceiling to the current total mastery attainable via ownership of items and exploration of places.  Could you clarify that aspect further?

 

This appears to allow extremely skewed maxing, i.e. I take Nova and tweak her for infinite energy and Molecular Prime (sorry nova players, it's just and example) I then go use my overly invested upon skill to the annoyance of other players, who make the forum a living hell, inaccurately calling it a balance issue.  Would point thresholds or ceilings exist for individual skills and scale with rank?

 

Mastery rank is intergral to the redefined progression in your concept, but my impression of how it might work is nebulous.  I'd love to see more of your ideas in that area.

 

 

 

Lastly, I hear you when you state that this or something similar is necessary, but it's a valid point that a violent replacement of several key mechanics like this concept is incredibly complex, and you probably can agree that as complexity scales upward, cost goes up and purity of purpose diminishes.  It would also be incredibly difficult to transition from the existing system to something this intricate all at once.  Not intended as an objection, just a (clearly redundant) statement that the complexity of the concept reduces the chances of it being implemented.

 

I'm looking forward to more of your ideas, and thank you for taking the time to post and reply.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko

[LukeAura]

Like the poster you are replying to, I'm not certain how your system adds sustainability.  

 

If all you need to do is level weapons/warframes and they become capable of being the 'best' they can be what do you do once the last weapon/waframe is leveled?

Your issue is that you can't see past that because that's how the game currently works. 

Warframes are objectives to be conquered and mastered then used to complete other objectives. Once that is done, and all the mods are levelled where do you go? Powercreep in stronger mods of the same mechanics we have in the game already? People will catch on. Adding mods is easy until mod ideas run out and people get bored of constantly going for the next mod. Sooner or later, it will stop drawing people. 

Zamboni is trying to make it so that 

a) There is no definitive best for each frame, customization becomes endless and more diverse.  

b) You play warframe because you enjoy it and it engages you. Not because it gives you an endless grind/goal to work towards.

Zamboni wants to make the very core of gameplay more fun, more satisfying. Running-Gunning-Crazy ninja Moves-Abilities. If warframe was only those things, would it still be fun? Right now, probably not for you. In his system, more likely. 

Your goal/reward/new mod is the satisfaction you find in warframe. He's trying to create a system where the satisfaction in warframe is playing warframe. 

Side note; So many trinity icons. 

[Feauce]

I want to call into question how do you expect players to rank up with only the default weapon slots + the few you can get from starting plat.

I did for a while. It was hell. And barely reached rank 4 or so.

The starting plat will buy two frame slots. Starting weapon slots are most certainly adequate. Selling starting weapons once suitable replacements have been built/purchased is more than viable. Four frame slots gives plenty of variety, and if boredom sets in, you could sell one to replace it.

[Rajko]

Nothing.  Which is precisely what the new system will offer you too.

I'll be sorry for getting into this derail topic, but it's really obvious what they are saying to you.  Your goal would be to increase your rank to access new content that is rank-gated and offers additional gameplay and gameplay mechanics in exchange for your gameplay time.  

 

And then... you would enjoy that content.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko

[Kyte]

The starting plat will buy two frame slots. Starting weapon slots are most certainly adequate. Selling starting weapons once suitable replacements have been built/purchased is more than viable. Four frame slots gives plenty of variety, and if boredom sets in, you could sell one to replace it.

In case you missed it the first time: I did that. It was hell. The moment you get a weapon/frame you want to keep, you're locked into choices. Want to keep more? Well enjoy your current mastery rank, 'cause you ain't getting any more. You cannot potato your weapons, because you might have to sell'em later.

 

This is actually a fundamental problem with slots, but since that's how it works, you have to shape your assumptions accordingly.

 

I'll be sorry for getting into this derail topic, but it's really obvious what they are saying to you.  Your goal would be to increase your rank to access new content that is rank-gated and offers additional gameplay and gameplay mechanics in exchange for your gameplay time.  

 

And then... you would enjoy that content.

Rank-gating game mechanics is one of the most frustrating locks ever devised. So because I'm new (or maybe I just made a new account!), I have to play a gimped game? It's actively newbie-hostile.

Even more than the limited slots.

 

Thankfully DE has common sense and is only thinking about locking ancillary elements (ie added value, not core gameplay) behind mastery.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Kyte

[Rajko]

 

Rank-gating game mechanics is one of the most frustrating locks ever devised. So because I'm new (or maybe I just made a new account!), I have to play a gimped game? It's actively newbie-hostile.

Even more than the limited slots.

 

In context, that post is related to an off-topic disagreement about what the motivation for prolonged play would be, and the OP is the person who suggested rank-gating planets.

 

However, although details are a little fuzzy and I think this part of the mega-concept hasn't been discussed much, he's suggesting an expansion to mastery points so that completing nodes and such have a real role in advancing your mastery, so that mastery is the prime mechanic for advancing your character's ability.  If I understand it correctly, his suggestion is not a punitive or newbie hostile one.  

 

Also, the current system requires new players to unlock a trail through the stars into additional areas, and does the same thing, just in a soft way, by virtue of the new player's inability to complete more advanced missions.  I'll grant that it's easy to get around that by tagging along with a stronger team, currently, though.

 

Edit.  I should also mention, gear in-game now is also rank-gated, like my rank 8 required Embolist.  Trades per day are also limited by mastery rank.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko

[Phatose]

I'll be sorry for getting into this derail topic, but it's really obvious what they are saying to you.  Your goal would be to increase your rank to access new content that is rank-gated and offers additional gameplay and gameplay mechanics in exchange for your gameplay time.  

 

And then... you would enjoy that content.

 

Right.  Currently, the system is set out similarly, however due to the time required to level up mods and whatnot, the amount of time played I have between updates is roughly equivalent to the time to max out on that content.  What I see here seems like it would be much much faster to max out any particular group of content, but times between updates will remain the same.  That kind of leaves a lot of downtime where I won't have anything to do.

 

I suppose you could deal with that by simply slowing down leveling quite a bit - though I doubt that would go over very well, given the reaction to the recent xp changes.

 

I suspect we could probably address this is a number of ways.  For example, were weapons attachments given levels which required significant amounts of resources to upgrade, you have sometime time consuming to do between updates that's still meaningful.  Balance it so the base mod is 100% and the rank 10 version is 130-150%, and you don't sacrifice much of the flexibility while still keeping the ability to grow in power over time once you've hit level 30 in your frame.

 

You can do similar things for the skill tree.  Keep forma, and allow it to alter individual nodes on the skill tree at the cost of releveling.  Put in a seperate class of special manuevers for melee, which aren't accessible until after you've used a forma after leveling up the weapon to 30.  Or perhaps have weapons types with specific moves attached when you master them, which allows you to forma another weapon to use that move - along the lines of "You've mastered skana, so now you can use blade cross on it, and can forma another single bladed weapon to use it on that too."

[theGreatZamboni]

In case you missed it the first time: I did that. It was hell. The moment you get a weapon/frame you want to keep, you're locked into choices. Want to keep more? Well enjoy your current mastery rank, 'cause you ain't getting any more. You cannot potato your weapons, because you might have to sell'em later.

 

This is actually a fundamental problem with slots, but since that's how it works, you have to shape your assumptions accordingly.

 

Rank-gating game mechanics is one of the most frustrating locks ever devised. So because I'm new (or maybe I just made a new account!), I have to play a gimped game? It's actively newbie-hostile.

Even more than the limited slots.

 

Thankfully DE has common sense and is only thinking about locking ancillary elements (ie added value, not core gameplay) behind mastery.

 

People who say this is too much work or would cause unrest would have a point, if DE weren't calling this a Beta. I am of the mindset that this is most certainly not a Beta, but an Alpha with a cash shop. The way a Free2Play game should work, is not to nickle and dime the player to the point of getting in the way of their experience; but to give players the chance to show their support by purchasing content that is supplemental to the overall experience. DE are a games studio. This is not too much work. What it is, is admitting they were wrong. I am most certainly not infallible nor is my idea, but given the direction of the game and the proposed concepts on display; my systems work to better fit the style of game. People will still be able to buy guns, skins, Warframes, Void keys, Sentinels. I highly doubt a large amount of their revenue comes from Mod Packs. This doesn't even address the equally as troublesome idea of item slots. When you would rather exploit your players for money, over providing them an experience they enjoy, well then maybe you need to rethink your career path. I'm sure a number of game publishers are hiring.

[Rajko]

Right.  Currently, the system is set out similarly, however due to the time required to level up mods and whatnot, the amount of time played I have between updates is roughly equivalent to the time to max out on that content.  What I see here seems like it would be much much faster to max out any particular group of content, but times between updates will remain the same.  That kind of leaves a lot of downtime where I won't have anything to do.

*Snip for space*

 

I think, because of some inherent rank-gating of zones, this concept would require additional gameplay modes and variety at each gate.  Which is equally true of the game now.

 

What I understand you to be saying is that the concept pushes new stuff to do with the game solely into new zones and gameplay and such, which lowers your ability to play the game and do new things.

 

What I hear the OP saying is that the new things you are doing are not sustainable over a longer term, and a proposal to adjust that.

 

I'm still digesting the OP's attachment and melee suggestions, so I don't really have any opinion yet on that or any of the responses, but I'm interested in mastery of one weapon conferring something to other weapons in class as a concept.

 

So yes, some slower new content out the door would probably occur, but that content would be more meaningful, and it would transition the 'progression' of the game off of the hunt for mods and onto the gameplay, and the additonal payout would be a sustainable framework for the game to continue to release content without becoming a slave to pointless, endless, mod iteration and power creep.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko

[mrmburns]

Might as well make a campaign for this game rather than to limit progress by mastery ranks.

[Kyte]

Reading a bit more into this:

I fail to see how your weapon attachment idea is any different to adding more mod slots, give'em different types and classify mods by type. This would be a much simpler and effective improvement to the current system. (Personally I'd classify mods as "Upgrade", with limited space, and "Customization", with unlimited space. Also some other changes, but I'll post a thread later on.)

 

Also there're already weapon-specific mods. There are few, most famous of which is Thunderbolt, but it proves that the system is already there.

 

Same with Systems/Power/Utility in frame mods. Moreover, your system also makes if very very easy to cheese, even more than Corrupted mods do right now. A Nova cannibalizes Null Star, Wormhole and Drop for maximum Molecular Prime. Rhino will drop Roar and Charge for Iron Skin & Stomp. Mag and Pull or Crush. Bleh.

 

Beyond the pretty pictures, the core of the idea is very shallow. It doesn't bring about any radical improvements that can't be done without working on top of the current mod system. I do think it'd be neat if we could add more cosmetic stuff to guns, but then we go into tacticool-derp in weapon aesthetic.

 

The only fundamental difference with attachments is that "mods" are now craftable instead of droppable. Given that takes away one of Steve's fundamental design goals (it was stated in the Update 7 patch), which has been present since the very inception of the game, I don't think it would ever fly.

 

I completely and utterly oppose to your entire melee system because it's based on Remember Me's and Remember Me's system sucked.

Also because melee is already pending review and rework. Improved combo system, if I recall right.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Kyte

[DecoyCode]

I'm going to have to read certain portions of this at a time, its a lot to take in.

 

 

Good job on it, it seems to be very well put together and legible.

[theGreatZamboni]

Reading a bit more into this:

I fail to see how your weapon attachment idea is any different to adding more mod slots, give'em different types and classify mods by type. This would be a much simpler and effective improvement to the current system. (Personally I'd classify mods as "Upgrade", with limited space, and "Customization", with unlimited space. Also some other changes, but I'll post a thread later on.)

 

Also there're already weapon-specific mods. There are few, most famous of which is Thunderbolt, but it proves that the system is already there.

 

Same with Systems/Power/Utility in frame mods. Moreover, your system also makes if very very easy to cheese, even more than Corrupted mods do right now. A Nova cannibalizes Null Star, Wormhole and Drop for maximum Molecular Prime. Rhino will drop Roar and Charge for Iron Skin & Stomp. Mag and Pull or Crush. Bleh.

 

Beyond the pretty pictures, the core of the idea is very shallow. It doesn't bring about any radical improvements that can't be done without working on top of the current mod system. I do think it'd be neat if we could add more cosmetic stuff to guns, but then we go into tacticool-derp in weapon aesthetic.

 

The only fundamental difference with attachments is that "mods" are now craftable instead of droppable. Given that takes away one of Steve's fundamental design goals (it was stated in the Update 7 patch), which has been present since the very inception of the game, I don't think it would ever fly.

 

I completely and utterly oppose to your entire melee system because it's based on Remember Me's and Remember Me's system sucked.

Also because melee is already pending review and rework. Improved combo system, if I recall right.

 

 

To think his suggestion has not crossed my mind is incorrect. The reason his suggestion was not expanded upon by me is simply because it retains mods. Mods will still be in the RNG, sharing space with materials and other drops. If you move the customization of your modifiers to a craft able and more attainable system, you once again put the focus on how you play rather than what mods you do or do not have. Most of the counter points being made are addressed, though not in big red text. I made sure to be clear in the reasoning behind why I would go to such lengths to showcase this point. His main point is "Why just not make mod slots". Ok, then you still have to farm excessively. Some farming will be inherent, but to make it the focus is ludicrous. His suggestion of awarding mods based on Mastery Rank, is in my idea. Its called the Precepts. Except you never have to forgo using one of your powers for something like Redirection. Which cycles back to "make mod slots". But again, we are trying to remove excess from the RNG and refocus on the gameplay.

 

As for this being "too big a step to take". I have already explained why something akin to this is necessary in other posts, in this thread. If not exactly my suggestion, something needs to be done. What Notion suggests is only a band aid on a bleeding heart. My suggestion is invasive surgery, that fixes the problem.

 

Most of your comments have been addressed already in the OP or later in the thread. It seems most opposition to the idea is "too much work", "its different" or  "it will never happen". Calling this idea shallow is ignorant to a degree I cannot even fathom. And here I go again, having to re-explain myself.

 

 

I think my post answers your own question about specialized weapons. But I may need to make it more clear.

 

As for the melee rework, yes it is. Remember Me was one of the worst games I ever played. But I play games to learn about design as much as I do to have fun. Remember Me took ideas from God Hand, as well as a number of other games. The only things I took away from it that were positive being the combo system and running animations. The rest was offensively bad. Not because it borrowed from other games, but because it did it so poorly. Those reasons coupled with terrible writing made me resent playing the game. Until I thought to use the combo system as a way to fix Warframe.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Kyte]

You could always make it less textwally, it'd make it easier to digest. :P

 

Anyways, the combo system sucked. It also actively works against the enemy design of the game. Here we have people shooting at you. Swarming you. They aren't gonna be nice and stand back for you to murder them like they do in Batman, AssCreed or Remember Me. There are dozens of ways to break your combo, and you'll be hitting them all. Or rather, they'll be hitting you.

Moreover, it's a system geared to one-versus-many with little to no outside interference. Warframe is co-op. Outside interference is the order of the day. Just ask any Nyx.

Also every time I played Remember Me I had to cycle through my combo configuration through my head to remember the order of keys. This is awful in the frantic pace of Warframe.

 

Stances are cute, but in the end it's making two weapons out of one. What for, we have dozens of melees. Make melees offer varied stances. Ceramic dagger can have a graceful style, Skana a more martial style, Machete hack-n-slashy. Kogake kickbox, Ankyros quick jabs, Furax heavy blows. etc.

Incidentally, saying "only making X more sets" is preposterously presumptuous given the visible level of work they need to make even one animation set.

 

Also, gating gameplay behind mastery.

That's terrible.

 

And again, you aren't gonna be taking drops from the game. It's been a fundamental part of the game and design concept since literally the beginning. Collection is, and will always be.

If you want to fix it, offer alternative ways to gather mods. Offer fundamental mods via a tutorial system or other guaranteed-return items. The like.

 

Powers can simply be made inherent to the frame level, or if DE ever goes through with the alternate powers idea, a separate category of slots.

Same with upgrade-type mods. Make'em their on category, give away the fundamentals, jack up their max rank to 20 or 30 (ie impossible to use in its entirety unless you literally dedicate all your mod space to it), lower their upgrade costs by half/66%, make'em tunable to lower-than-max ranks.

Make customization-type mods free. Slot as many as you want.

 

Now you have a system that lets you choose upgrades on one side and choose sidegrades/customizations on another side, with no competition. Customizations can be the collectibles they were always meant to be, upgrades can be acquired reliably when needed, and no need for ripping out the mod system.

 

Toss in some level upgrades to weapons the same way frames do right now and you've got gravy.

 

--

 

Incidentally I think your idea of idiotproofing the system is pointless. If they feel like building a suboptimal build, despite the visual hints and, you know, things like increased cost or whatever or voluntarily giving up a cool power, then let them.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Kyte

[theGreatZamboni]

You could always make it less textwally, it'd make it easier to digest. :P

 

Anyways, the combo system sucked. It also actively works against the enemy design of the game. Here we have people shooting at you. Swarming you. They aren't gonna be nice and stand back for you to murder them like they do in Batman, AssCreed or Remember Me. There are dozens of ways to break your combo, and you'll be hitting them all. Or rather, they'll be hitting you.

 

Also, gating gameplay behind mastery.

That's terrible.

 

And again, you aren't gonna be taking drops from the game. It's been a fundamental part of the game and design concept since literally the beginning. Collection is, and will always be.

If you want to fix it, offer alternative ways to gather mods. Offer fundamental mods via a tutorial system or other guaranteed-return items. The like.

 

Powers can simply be made inherent to the frame level, or if DE ever goes through with the alternate powers idea, a separate category of slots.

Same with upgrade-type mods. Make'em their on category, give away the fundamentals, jack up their max rank to 20 or 30 (ie impossible to use in its entirety unless you literally dedicate all your mod space to it), lower their upgrade costs by half/66%, make'em tunable to lower-than-max ranks.

Make customization-type mods free. Slot as many as you want.

 

Now you have a system that lets you choose upgrades on one side and choose sidegrades/customizations on another side, with no competition. Customizations can be the collectibles they were always meant to be, upgrades can be acquired reliably when needed, and no need for ripping out the mod system.

 

These are things I am expounding upon in separate threads and here. Something this vast cannot be contained to a short tl;dr. Here is the part that got lost in translation and I am working on expanding:

 

The precepts of the stances. They offer you things like auto bullet reflection, parrying, stagger reduction, etc. As well as damage increases and speed increases. I thought that it may be self evident based on the context in which it is presented. But clearly it is not. Again, this is a proof of concept and I am working on expanding it. I do not expect you to read my mind, but I did take the time to construct a pitch that was vapid of holes. Any argument or opposition I have seen in this thread, has been answered by me or my post. Again, I am working on this. I am using my free time to do this. But if I have to stop and explain myself, even after I took the time to do so carefully in my OP; it takes away from me expounding upon the ideas people are finding to be so curious.

[Feauce]

Right. Currently, the system is set out similarly, however due to the time required to level up mods and whatnot, the amount of time played I have between updates is roughly equivalent to the time to max out on that content. Words, words, words.

Words, words, words.

Words, words, words.

Words, words, words.

So, your big idea for the system change posed by the OP, meant to fix a lot of the samey grind this game is plagued with... is to introduce more grind? Because, based on your first statement, the actual content of the game bores you. You just want an excuse to grind, and the current setup lets you do that. The grind itself, no matter what the gameplay is like, is actually what you want. The rest of us want better than that.

[Kyte]

These are things I am expounding upon in separate threads and here. Something this vast cannot be contained to a short tl;dr. Here is the part that got lost in translation and I am working on expanding:

 

The precepts of the stances. They offer you things like auto bullet reflection, parrying, stagger reduction, etc. As well as damage increases and speed increases. I thought that it may be self evident based on the context in which it is presented. But clearly it is not. Again, this is a proof of concept and I am working on expanding it. I do not expect you to read my mind, but I did take the time to construct a pitch that was vapid of holes. Any argument or opposition I have seen in this thread, has been answered by me or my post. Again, I am working on this. I am using my free time to do this. But if I have to stop and explain myself, even after I took the time to do so carefully in my OP; it takes away from me expounding upon the ideas people are finding to be so curious.

Or you could condense it, you have this bad habit of using too many words for simple ideas.

 

Your stances are just mods. What for, we already have mods. Improve the mod system to make upgrades not compete with customizations and now we can have bonuses without throwing away all this design work.

 

You also have this mistaken impression this is a single player game.

It's not.

There's lag sensitivity. There's co-op partners interfering. There's enemies that swarm you and shoot you and generally will do their damnedest to throw you out of your combo.

[theGreatZamboni]

Or you could condense it, you have this bad habit of using too many words for simple ideas.

 

Your stances are just mods. What for, we already have mods. Improve the mod system to make upgrades not compete with customizations and now we can have bonuses without throwing away all this design work.

 

You also have this mistaken impression this is a single player game.

It's not.

There's lag sensitivity. There's co-op partners interfering. There's enemies that swarm you and shoot you and generally will do their damnedest to throw you out of your combo.

 

Everything I have to say is here. You can stop putting words in my mouth. If you can fix or talk about game design in fewer words, if your ideas are so great, feel free to start a thread a share them. I am willing to accept critiques. So far, any opposing points of contention have dissipated as the thread goes on.

[Feauce]

You also have this mistaken impression this is a single player game.

And what would you base this upon?

[Taihus]

I'd like to ask a question that is, I think, pretty key:

If Warframe depends on players wanting to grind for more mods and content, then how do other 4-player co-op games like Left 4 Dead and L4D 2 retain their players and attract more players even now, even though the maps are the same, and there is no player progression? What is it about Left 4 Dead or Killing Floor that makes people come back and play them over and over, despite these games having none of the aspects that some people here feel that Warframe NEEDS for continued success?

[Phatose]

I think, because of some inherent rank-gating of zones, this concept would require additional gameplay modes and variety at each gate.  Which is equally true of the game now.

 

What I understand you to be saying is that the concept pushes new stuff to do with the game solely into new zones and gameplay and such, which lowers your ability to play the game and do new things.

 

What I hear the OP saying is that the new things you are doing are not sustainable over a longer term, and a proposal to adjust that.

 

I'm still digesting the OP's attachment and melee suggestions, so I don't really have any opinion yet on that or any of the responses, but I'm interested in mastery of one weapon conferring something to other weapons in class as a concept.

 

So yes, some slower new content out the door would probably occur, but that content would be more meaningful, and it would transition the 'progression' of the game off of the hunt for mods and onto the gameplay, and the additonal payout would be a sustainable framework for the game to continue to release content without becoming a slave to pointless, endless, mod iteration and power creep.

 

My concern isn't that the content will be slower to come out.  I'd expect that pace of new content being released would remain about the same.  I'm concern that the time it takes to fully absorb any content will be far shorter under this system then the current one.  The elements he's removing are the most time-consuming ones, so while the content creation rate will remain the same, the content consumption rate will increase significantly.  The net effect is the same though - more time without new content. 

 

Beyond that, I don't especially consider power creep to be a god-awful thing to be avoided at all costs.  Continual power growth is a trademark of a fair number of games - Diablo comes to mind.  I happen to like the idea that I can continually gain over time.  I can understand some concerns with weapons - "New weapon X isn't better then Old weapon Y, so it sucks" - but unless I've missed something, this change wouldn't actually prevent that.

[Taihus]

About the melee, I still think the system proposed here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1648801

is actually pretty feasible. A basic light/heavy combo system with potentially different effects for different attack types depending on weapon seems like it would be pretty good for me. Anyone here ever played WH40k Space Marine?

[Straxxes]

I read many replies about the melee combo system what you mentioned and some of them prefers a much easier, causal type of system.

My opinion:

 

This - System - Is - The - Best

 

Why?

I played Remeber Me as well, and tbh I have to share the feeling that the combo system was the best part of that horrible game. I made combos what I prefered THE MOST. Player choice ladies and gentlemen.

Who prefer what? I prefer style and fluid combos, some is more hardcore who don't care much about the sight of what he is doing and the middle of the two type. I made so flawless and marvelous combos in Remember Me, it just made me so satisfied that how my character spin, kick and do the battle in the most acrobatic way.

 

With that system you can make the combos, what YOU prefer above all. This system CAN provide that.

 

I really hope that DE is reading this and made us all happy with the surprise of making this happen :)

 

EDIT: Good Luck for your Campaign for that Zamboni, I wish you can make it for the sake of everyone !

Edited November 26, 2013 by Straxxes

[theGreatZamboni]

I'd like to ask a question that is, I think, pretty key:

If Warframe depends on players wanting to grind for more mods and content, then how do other 4-player co-op games like Left 4 Dead and L4D 2 retain their players and attract more players even now, even though the maps are the same, and there is no player progression? What is it about Left 4 Dead or Killing Floor that makes people come back and play them over and over, despite these games having none of the aspects that some people here feel that Warframe NEEDS for continued success?

 

People play to obtain drops. Mods are drops. Now this is a point of contention, but I am willing to bet some people are tired of the game and find themselves only playing to obtain said drops.

 

The phrasing of what I say is suggestive and not matter-o-fact. You basically prove my point. L4D doesn't need mods or really anything because the core game is fun even after 100 hours.