"AOE meta got nerfed, oh no" - no, it's still around... sadly

[HeavyFarms]

11 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Bramma is still very much viable

Ammo restrictions very much hurt the weapon to the point it doesn't feel good. 

I don't play destiny for the very same reason on ammo restriction weapons. Nor have I ever believed your stance on nerfing weapons, as most of the time You'lll just actively take away fun and enjoyment and prefer the game is better for it. 

I'll take my rocket jumping tonkor back. Thanks. Seriously, how people like you can go "Oh, a wildly popular feature that people go crazy for in other games? Na. Too OP. Can't have fun weapons, cause then they get popular." 

Shove it dude. 

[aivastus]

10 hours ago, ShockTNC said:

I agree that demanding they nerf everyone elses weapons is very selfish, but there is an argument to be made that right now you will get squads where one person does 90% of the damage even though everyone has fully kitted out meta frames. What OP does not understand is that nerfing AOE damage yet again is not actually going to fix anything. 

Tbf I never use AOE, and used to heavily think about AOE like OP during the Melee/Bramma/Nukor-meta (before Condition Overload nerfs).

Nowadays I think suggesting AOE-nerfs are just a distraction from the fact that punch through is a rarity, and way too punishing to build for. Nerfing AOE doesn't nerf every mob from blocking beams and machinegun-fire with apparent ease. Furthermore, Primary mods and frame-arcanes are objectively worse than what we have for secondaries, and I believe it's because they were balanced with AOE / very high multishot in mind. Worst stat choices, worst elements, worst proc chances.

Imo, at least half of the issues between AOE and non-AOE could be fixed by:

1. Allowing every non-AOE weapon to have 0.2 - 1.2 punch through by default.

1. Reworking normal Shred into +50% fire rate / +1 punch through (from +30% / +1.2). Also rework the shotgun version.

2. Add option for "+0.5 Primary Punch Through" to Crimson Archon Shard.

3. Optional: Rework Primed Shred into +60% / +2 (from +55% and +2.2).

Edited January 27 by aivastus

[Venus-Venera]

Am 28.1.2024 um 00:12 schrieb aivastus:

Tbf I never use AOE, and used to heavily think about AOE like OP during the Melee/Bramma/Nukor-meta (before Condition Overload nerfs).

Nowadays I think suggesting AOE-nerfs are just a distraction from the fact that punch through is a rarity, and way too punishing to build for. Nerfing AOE doesn't nerf every mob from blocking beams and machinegun-fire with apparent ease. Furthermore, Primary mods and frame-arcanes are objectively worse than what we have for secondaries, and I believe it's because they were balanced with AOE / very high multishot in mind. Worst stat choices, worst elements, worst proc chances.

Imo, at least half of the issues between AOE and non-AOE could be fixed by:

1. Allowing every non-AOE weapon to have 0.2 - 1.2 punch through by default.

1. Reworking normal Shred into +50% fire rate / +1 punch through (from +30% / +1.2). Also rework the shotgun version.

2. Add option for "+0.5 Primary Punch Through" to Crimson Archon Shard.

3. Optional: Rework Primed Shred into +60% / +2 (from +55% and +2.2).

How can you even speak about "op" when it's not a sport? this isn't even a pvp game...
so huh? and the whole thing makes no sense at all. I also posted above why...

because........! I can just hold the mele button and everything dies! everything dies quickly and in large quantities! I don't even have to think and aim. Mele weapons currently have enough range.

and damage from mele weapons is just hardcore. For single targets this is overkill.
but console players might be happy. because you just have to hold down one button.

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

How can you even speak about "op" when it's not a sport? this isn't even a pvp game...
so huh? and the whole thing makes no sense at all. I also posted above why...

because........! I can just hold the mele button and everything dies! everything dies quickly and in large quantities! I don't even have to think and aim. Mele weapons currently have enough range.

and damage from mele weapons is just hardcore. For single targets this is overkill.
but console players might be happy. because you just have to hold down one button.

I think the latest melee changes/additions again show DE's DEsync in DEsign. They placed limitations on AoE guns through various methods, limited ammo, smaller radius, fall off, self stagger and so on. Then they go and release something that practically makes melee cover twice the area, with no self stagger, no ammo and no fall off involved. All you need to do is build slightly different from before, sacrificing some single target to gain massive AoE. Not that single target has ever been weak on melee, so making that small sacrifice is barely noticable either. And this is without even considering the optimal weapons for this, or looking at the single outlier that makes it all batS#&$ crazy.

This is also in addition to the normal melee hits of the weapon that already cover a decent area with no ammo or self stagget. Some reaching up towards 10m and hitting fast.

[Mazifet]

On 2024-01-11 at 11:09 AM, Skoomaseller said:

i can keep up without issue on my trusty prisma gorgon

my gorgon wraith is doin well in sp, honestly underrated weapon family

[aivastus]

6 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

How can you even speak about "op" when it's not a sport? this isn't even a pvp game...
so huh? and the whole thing makes no sense at all. I also posted above why...

because........! I can just hold the mele button and everything dies! everything dies quickly and in large quantities! I don't even have to think and aim. Mele weapons currently have enough range.

and damage from mele weapons is just hardcore. For single targets this is overkill.
but console players might be happy. because you just have to hold down one button.

OP = "Original Post(er)". "I used to heavily think about AOE like OP". Meaning, I used to think the same way and wanted AOE to be nerfed, because I hadn't figured out it solves nothing.

And no, you didn't post above why my reply doesn't make sense. Your argument seems to be that melee kills everything with no effort. Again, we can remove melee, it doesn't make any regular single-target weapon suck less. You also mentioned "beam weapons", and that just means Kuva Nukor / other weapons with AOE-chain.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb aivastus:

OP = "Original Post(er)". "I used to heavily think about AOE like OP". Meaning, I used to think the same way and wanted AOE to be nerfed, because I hadn't figured out it solves nothing.

And no, you didn't post above why my reply doesn't make sense. Your argument seems to be that melee kills everything with no effort. Again, we can remove melee, it doesn't make any regular single-target weapon suck less. You also mentioned "beam weapons", and that just means Kuva Nukor / other weapons with AOE-chain.

If op="Original Post" is meant, then it has a different meaning. hence the reaction is wrong

[Skoomaseller]

9 hours ago, Mazifet said:

my gorgon wraith is doin well in sp, honestly underrated weapon family

YES another gorgon enthusiast

[Mazifet]

53 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

YES another gorgon enthusiast

my man 🤝

[Colldbllue]

Pardon my ignorance. I'm a newb, I simply just don't know;

But why does it even matter? Like -- no doubt I think hotfixes, and patching cheesy stuff should be done... but I assume it is to a larger degree like mostly all other live service games.

So with the basics covered; why would some godly AOE meta even matter? Is there something to compete over? If you join a match with someone and they are spec'd for AOE, mowing things down.. isnt that a good thing? what else is there that could cause something like this to be negative for negligent?

Edited February 2 by Colldbllue

[Colldbllue]

On 2024-01-10 at 12:36 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

, why do I even bother trying to use those actually good Incarnon weapons that I've farmed.

Like mostly all other ARPG's I've played... single target dps is really only used for bosses. I know I havent reached the elite tiers of the game yet, but watching streamers I see single target dps being used for this very purpose and I think its really cool! Using spells and aoe weapons through out a dungeon on the way to a boss, and then boom you get to the fragmented one, you whip out your furis incarnon and lay waste... its super cool!

 

I don't see how an arpg could work otherwise. It seems like you are suggesting that you wish single target was used to take out mission trash. to me, in my opinion, that just aesthetically doesn't make sense. But the beauty of the game is you can build, and play however you want. I guess you'd just have to group with the right people to get your fix! :)

 

We all have our opinions though and I respect all of'em!

[CoffeeElemental]

Just use Limbo lmao. You get your incarnon charges, bramma spammers get mad. Win-win. _{Until the first host migration.}

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, Colldbllue said:

Pardon my ignorance. I'm a newb, I simply just don't know;

But why does it even matter? Like -- no doubt I think hotfixes, and patching cheesy stuff should be done... but I assume it is to a larger degree like mostly all other live service games.

So with the basics covered; why would some godly AOE meta even matter? Is there something to compete over? If you join a match with someone and they are spec'd for AOE, mowing things down.. isnt that a good thing? what else is there that could cause something like this to be negative for negligent?

While AoE is fun, it kinda removes all threat in the game and makes it hard for DE to produce new content that is somewhat balanced. At which point they instead more or less remove our progression, and we get steaming S#&$e like Kahl missions, or the Nihil and Exploiter Orb encounters. Which is why it should likely be reduced both for weapons and frames to make the game more healthy overall. Our power should likely be reduced overall, but DE just wont put in the work needed, which would be a rework of the whole damage system really. DE have simply just let it go while other games do it constantly, so they've practically let the ant hill turn into a mountain.

7 hours ago, Colldbllue said:

Like mostly all other ARPG's I've played... single target dps is really only used for bosses. I know I havent reached the elite tiers of the game yet, but watching streamers I see single target dps being used for this very purpose and I think its really cool! Using spells and aoe weapons through out a dungeon on the way to a boss, and then boom you get to the fragmented one, you whip out your furis incarnon and lay waste... its super cool!

 

I don't see how an arpg could work otherwise. It seems like you are suggesting that you wish single target was used to take out mission trash. to me, in my opinion, that just aesthetically doesn't make sense. But the beauty of the game is you can build, and play however you want. I guess you'd just have to group with the right people to get your fix! :)

 

We all have our opinions though and I respect all of'em!

The problem in WF is that it is just that single encounter that kinda allows for it, and it practically only applies to the bonus version of the SP version. In other cases the only reason you'd swap over to a single target gun is if the boss has an arbitrary weakpoint mechanic so you must hit a very specific spot. If not you likely turn them into red mist and pulp with whatever AoE gun or melee you carry with you. The old damage attenuation also resulted in needing single target, but not any single target, rapid fire or pellet more or less. With the changes they made to it anything works. 

What WF would need has been suggested so many times over. Heavy units with massive resistance to AoE while also rocking weakpoint locations that you need to take out to kill them. That would allow for AoE to run crazy to kill trash, but also require people to actually stop and consider what enemy are in the middle of everything else, while carrying atleast 1 weapon to take out those priority targets. Guardian Eximus were a step in the right direction, but they have nothing to put up against you if you play melee, since you will likely go through them as if they werent there. We'd need a mix of them and the glassmaker enemies, it would create a priority target that left unchecked would significantly slow down the kill rate of trash, while giving that trash more uptime shooting at you.

Another idea I've had for heavy mobs would be a necro or spawner. Also a very durable unit that hangs back and reanimates dead enemies into something tougher aslong as it is left alive. Would certainly fit for a potential infested expansion or a void related creature. Also heavy units that add immunity to damage types for allies would be a good solution aslong as they are also hard to kill and requires priority focus.

[Dairaion]

On 2024-01-10 at 2:36 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Running pub relic runs(Normal and SP both) makes me wonder, why do I even bother trying to use those actually good Incarnon weapons that I've farmed. Can't charge it even with a single precision headshot (let alone get a single stack of that headshot-based arcane), when all enemies are instantly dead split second after they spawn out of a fissure - all thanks to Tenet Arca Plasmor, Tenet Envoy, Sporelacer kitguns, Kuva Zarr/Bramma and the rest of the "supposedly nerfed" AOE weapons that people don't even have to aim at all. Same applies to literally any other single-target weapon - even non-incarnon, even if a very good one... Too bad.

I understand wanting to "optimize gameplay", especially relic runs. I really do. And yeah, AOE weapons do exactly that - no need to aim, just spray'n'pray. EZ braindead gameplay. I get it. But... AOE meta still around, still making single-target weapons irrelevant, incarnon or not.

Can't say how to make single-target stuff more relevant without nerfing AOE, but at least something can be done to Incarnons - just make them ALL charge up on body hits, like Angrstrum/Torid do. Otherwise it's pointless to even bother trying to get to the boosted incarnon forms - which are (usually, but not always) good. But you can't use em in those somewhat shorter relic run missions, because by the time you'd be able to use them(if at all!!!) - everyone's already dead, mission complete and you need to head to extract. The only time they are good are solo SP runs. Where you have all the time in the world and all the enemies left to you. Not being obliterated by AOE that people don't have to aim.

Discuss.

AOE was nerfed, or to be more precise, AOE was limted to a specific builds for 3 weapons and is totally unobtainable for new or mid players, who will now due to prohibition and ease of use be forced to spend hundreds on plat for a single build and never not use it because of investment.

 

Funny that.