Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[Xylia]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I played most of my first year solo, except missions like Interception and assassination missions against bosses that my guns couldn't scratch. When I first met Tyl Regor, he couldn't kill me, and I couldn't scratch him... it was a stalemate for 30 minutes, until I aborted, went public, and by the time I had put up my snow globe (which I was using to slow him down in my solo runs), he was already dead, and there was a fantastic green extraction marker that I ran toward.

My fun came from my solo play. My progress with public groups was entirely focused on success in the mission, and I couldn't care less how that happened.

You're basically proving my point without realizing it.

The game is *SUPPOSED* to be about co-op.

It is *SUPPOSED* to be fun.

But "Going Public" is something that *YOU ADMIT YOURSELF* is something you do *RELUCTANTLY* because it isn't fun.

Do you not see the terrible game design here? That people groan when clicking the public button knowing it's going to be a not fun experience of watching everybody else murder everything in the blink of an eye?

That people would rather solo when possible to avoid that?

[Merkranire]

7 minutes ago, Xylia said:

I just want them to make all the stuff required before you can begin Steel path to be more easily soloable so I don't have to put up with this kind of crap happening in public matches.

If people wanna show off in publics, fine.

But give me a way to avoid it that's actually feasible and don't force me to spend plat to skip gameplay.

Steel path is the only place where any sort of fighting can happen in multiplayer because players haven’t figured out how to completely remove it for most of the options we have available, true. It was introduced as the place for build testers to go and was never described as any sort of balanced, and since these players have no idea what they’re built for, it’s only an accident that gameplay exists in SP; give it time and more ways to push the powercreep, and you can bet that SP too will fall victim to the No Gameplay Allowed rule enforced by players, possibly not even intentionally but certainly out of ignorance

The game in general is still working off the modless baseline and the non-SP part is balanced and supports every other way we can build and play, so if you find SP not really a good place for most of the ways you want to build, non-SP is perfectly fine despite what these players would have you believe, just don’t expect there to be many other players who know what they’re built for (though you already knew that)

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 minute ago, Xylia said:

I wouldn't mind doing that stuff if it were more feasible to solo it without being forced to go public.

Why is THAT so hard for you to understand?

The thread is literally about people not having fun in public matches.

 

You can't have fun in public matches because everything just dies in seconds and you don't get time to do anything because everybody else is leagues ahead of you.

Your response: "OK then go gear up"

To do that, you need stuff you can't feasibly solo.

Which....

 

Forces you into public matches. Which aren't fun.

Um... this isn't remotely true. You can make it through the entirety of the star chart without things in Steel Path, or anything released after Steel Path. There are builds out there that don't require anything from current releases that were already being complained about as "overpowered" back then, and we have only gotten stronger since, with more options.

The ONLY times I've felt forced into public play, is certain mission types, such as Interception and Disruption, and as I mentioned above, assassination missions, before I had proper mods. (I will caveat this statement with clearing a disruption node can be done solo, as long as you defend 1 location, and fail the other 3, so even that isn't required to go public to clear.)

This seems like an uninformed, or mis-informed conclusion that you've reached, perhaps based on current day youtube video guides on best builds, and they list all sorts of mods that you don't yet have access to, but have lesser equivalents that are completely passable (such as Galvanized Mods, you really don't need them.) Perhaps you need different frames suited for different jobs. (Frost, Limbo, Wisp, Oberon, etc, for defense, for instance.)

2 minutes ago, Xylia said:

You're basically proving my point without realizing it.

The game is *SUPPOSED* to be about co-op.

It is *SUPPOSED* to be fun.

But "Going Public" is something that *YOU ADMIT YOURSELF* is something you do *RELUCTANTLY* because it isn't fun.

Do you not see the terrible game design here? That people groan when clicking the public button knowing it's going to be a not fun experience of watching everybody else murder everything in the blink of an eye?

That people would rather solo when possible to avoid that?

Oh, please understand, I hate grouping in ALL GAMES. It has absolutely nothing to do with Warframe in particular.

[Xylia]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Um... this isn't remotely true. You can make it through the entirety of the star chart without things in Steel Path, or anything released after Steel Path. There are builds out there that don't require anything from current releases that were already being complained about as "overpowered" back then, and we have only gotten stronger since, with more options.

The ONLY times I've felt forced into public play, is certain mission types, such as Interception and Disruption, and as I mentioned above, assassination missions, before I had proper mods. (I will caveat this statement with clearing a disruption node can be done solo, as long as you defend 1 location, and fail the other 3, so even that isn't required to go public to clear.)

This seems like an uninformed, or mis-informed conclusion that you've reached, perhaps based on current day youtube video guides on best builds, and they list all sorts of mods that you don't yet have access to, but have lesser equivalents that are completely passable (such as Galvanized Mods, you really don't need them.) Perhaps you need different frames suited for different jobs. (Frost, Limbo, Wisp, Oberon, etc, for defense, for instance.)

 

As new releases go on, power creep dictates that you WILL need Steel Path stuff to do current content, if not now it will be so in the future. Unless you just wanna clear to star chart and stop there, and don't do anything that comes after. I mean, they advertise all of this new content, new story quests, etc, and a lot of that is going to need better gear for you to do, especially if you wanna do it solo if that's even possible.

4 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Oh, please understand, I hate grouping in ALL GAMES. It has absolutely nothing to do with Warframe in particular.

And that still doesn't mean that you're not proving my point.

The same sentiment ("I solo unless I MUST group") is one that I share myself, and I've heard plenty of other people share too.

Maybe for slightly different reasons, but it all points to public just not being fun unless you're of similar power level.

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Xylia said:

Yeah, let's not talk about how to make the game actually fun and playable, let's just continue the status quo and not improve anything at all.

Not everybody likes to watch everybody else show off for hours. Some people don't like feeling useless in a match because everybody else is so ludicrously overpowered.

Honestly, I don't see how you can find it fun to watch while everybody else gets to have fun, because, you know, you don't have to log into the game to do that. You can just watch somebody on Youtube playing. At least then, you can actually SEE what is going on, and not just see numbers popping up in the next room from the affinity from their kills.

I've spent like 90%+ of my time in WF playing solo. I don't have to watch anyone but myself do anything. I learn how to do things solo before I even attempt doing them in a group. I've always been like that in games though. If I can't do it solo why would I enter a group setting and get carried or left behind. 

5 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

This was exactly my experience. I loved seeing how powerful I could eventually become, and now I'm that powerful, and it is fun.

It was an eye opening experience for sure. 

I was low MR farming credits in dark sector infested survival and struggling after like 10 minutes and ended up getting carried for an hour+. They linked me builds and I saw I needed arcanes, forma, potatoes etc. and I slowly worked towards that. That first time getting carried set me off on endurance runs because I saw what was possible. I didn't have to stop or get carried, I just had to get better and getting better required better gear and know how. 

[Xylia]

Just now, Berzerkules said:

I've spent like 90%+ of my time in WF playing solo. I don't have to watch anyone but myself do anything. I learn how to do things solo before I even attempt doing them in a group. I've always been like that in games though. If I can't do it solo why would I enter a group setting and get carried or left behind. 

Oh wow, another person who only groups when they must, lol.

It's almost like grouping in a game that was billed as being a CO-OP experience isn't fun in co-op.

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Xylia said:

Oh wow, another person who only groups when they must, lol.

It's almost like grouping in a game that was billed as being a CO-OP experience isn't fun in co-op.

Oh look, another person who lives in a dream land and thinks WF is a co-op game.

[Aarrggghhhh]

2 minutes ago, Xylia said:

Oh wow, another person who only groups when they must, lol.

It's almost like grouping in a game that was billed as being a CO-OP experience isn't fun in co-op.

Co-op is optional and has been for a long time. Only certain game modes, like Interception, benefit from a full squad.
Warframe is not the same as it was in 2013.

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

Oh look, another person who lives in a dream land and thinks WF is a co-op game.

It can be, and it’s pretty good and rewarding.

You guys aren’t interested in that though, and you build like it

[Xylia]

Just now, Berzerkules said:

Oh look, another person who lives in a dream land and thinks WF is a co-op game.

It isn't?

The Steam Store Page specifically says that it is indeed meant to be a co-op experience, and they keep making missions are built around co-op, so....

[Berzerkules]

Just now, Merkranire said:

It can be, and it’s pretty good and rewarding.

You guys aren’t interested in that though, and you build like it

And you build to get carried. We all make our own choices in life. We must learn to live with those choices

[Xylia]

1 minute ago, Aarrggghhhh said:

Co-op is optional and has been for a long time. Only certain game modes, like Interception, benefit from a full squad.
Warframe is not the same as it was in 2013.

Maybe we need to go back to 2013, because the game has really lost it's way.

If it's not meant to be co-op, then why not just remove the co-op altogether and make it a 100% singleplayer title instead of trying to pretend it's co-op when it apparently isn't?

They shouldn't advertise the game as being co-op, make it look like it's co-op, but then decide to remove 99% of the co-op stuff and make what little that remains, not fun.

[Merkranire]

Just now, Berzerkules said:

And you build to get carried. We all make our own choices in life. We must learn to live with those choices

I build to do my part while keeping my equipment customised, the carry happens because you’re forcing it on me. I don’t want you to carry, butt out and go back to someplace you’re built for, and I’ll join you there and we can both fight

[HeavyFarms]

1 hour ago, Xylia said:

"Unpopular".

I'm convinced you don't actually play FFXIV, so I dunno why you're mentioning it.

If you played it, you'd realize that you can Q up for a dungeon any day of the week and get one within 10min as a DPS,

As you were saying? Couldn't quite catch that. 

Try to curb your elitism. But took about 3 tries with duty finder to clear this particular trial. Different data servers have different queue times. I wish I could have gotten this within 10 minutes as a dps. I tried tank and healer as well. 

Yes, Level Sync is unpopular. And will get more unpopular the higher level you can get. Especially when you get the same low level dungeons back to back. Queue times are "Short" because the game is designed to fill most dungeons and trials people need. 

You could vastly reduce the level sync penalties and have a much better experience all around. 

1 hour ago, Xylia said:

If you played it, you'd realize that you can Q up for a dungeon any day of the week and get one within 10min as a DPS, and almost instant as a tank or healer and you never hear anybody complaining about Level Sync, in fact, most people who talk about it, praise it for allowing people to experience dungeons as they were meant to be experienced, and praise it for keeping Q times short.

Yeah? 

3 hours is short?, Hm. Might want to revist your opinion. Especially on dlc classes. They can get 1-2 useable moves thanks to level sync. Its not very fun spamming 1 move an entire dungeon :) 

1 hour ago, Xylia said:

Because they know the alternative is what we have in WoW: scale everybody's power relative to each other so that your gear and progression doesn't matter at all and everything is all jank and whacked up and you have no ability to know what exactly DPS or HPS you're doing because the numbers on the screen lie.

Oh, and doing dungeons unsynch'd, you miss out on 90% of the rewards.

And look at that, if you just want the dungeon for story purposes, the game lets you do it with NPCs if you seriously don't wanna group up.

Oh, Final Fantasy 14 would be much more tolerable if 50% to 80% of the hotbar didn't become unusable when you just want to level in daily roullettes. Think you underestimate how different WOW and FF14 really are. 

FF14 won't ever get to WoW levels. 

[Xylia]

2 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

And you build to get carried. We all make our own choices in life. We must learn to live with those choices

Right, so lemme log in, and I'll put together this selection of weapons and mods that appears out of the sky that lets me solo anything in the game with ease and/or keep up with players who have BiS gear.

 

oh wait......

[Aarrggghhhh]

1 minute ago, Xylia said:

Maybe we need to go back to 2013, because the game has really lost it's way.

High player engagement, players seem to be mostly happy with the direction. So why should we go back?
If you don't like it, that's fine, but you don't get to dictate to the rest of us.

[Xylia]

Just now, HeavyFarms said:

As you were saying? Couldn't quite catch that. 

Try to curb your elitism. But took about 3 tries with duty finder to clear this particular trial. Different data servers have different queue times. I wish I could have gotten this within 10 minutes as a dps. I tried tank and healer as well. 

Yes, Level Sync is unpopular. And will get more unpopular the higher level you can get. Especially when you get the same low level dungeons back to back. Queue times are "Short" because the game is designed to fill most dungeons and trials people need. 

You could vastly reduce the level sync penalties and have a much better experience all around. 

Yeah? 

3 hours is short?, Hm. Might want to revist your opinion. Especially on dlc classes. They can get 1-2 useable moves thanks to level sync. Its not very fun spamming 1 move an entire dungeon :) 

Oh, Final Fantasy 14 would be much more tolerable if 50% to 80% of the hotbar didn't become unusable when you just want to level in daily roullettes. Think you underestimate how different WOW and FF14 really are. 

FF14 won't ever get to WoW levels. 

What were you trying to Q for? I notice you left that out. Oh, and you were specific Qing, not Qing for roulette. Right.

Obviously if you Q for some obscure trial,  you're not going to get a group immediately. Obviously. That has nothing to do with popularity of level sync or lack thereof.

[Xylia]

2 minutes ago, Aarrggghhhh said:

High player engagement, players seem to be mostly happy with the direction. So why should we go back?
If you don't like it, that's fine, but you don't get to dictate to the rest of us.

There was high player engagement back then, too.

I'd argue, even moreso than there is now.

 

And players, happy? LOL that's rich. Half of every youtube video that I come across that isn't new players is "Why this sucks in Warframe" "Why that sucks in Warframe" "Warframe is dying" or "DE controversy" ....

Not a whole lot of positivity in recent years.

But I remember the old days, Pre-Update 9. People were [i][b]excited[/b][/i] to log on and play. I had several friends at the time, and we'd all watch the Devstreams together and we'd be talking on IMs as the Devstream was going, and we'd get all hype.

Fast-forward to today and my friends barely talk about the game. One or two of them log on occasionally, and that's about it.

[Berzerkules]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I build to do my part while keeping my equipment customised, the carry happens because you’re forcing it on me. I don’t want you to carry, butt out and go back to someplace you’re built for, and I’ll join you there and we can both fight

You want to play together? Cool, wanna run SP Circulus? It's my new favorite node. I'm actually testing a speedva build there now. Send me an invite in game

3 minutes ago, Xylia said:

Right, so lemme log in, and I'll put together this selection of weapons and mods that appears out of the sky that lets me solo anything in the game with ease and/or keep up with players who have BiS gear.

 

oh wait......

You need to farm those weapons and mods like everyone else did while you were taking a break. It takes time, don't worry, you'll get there.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

3 minutes ago, Xylia said:

 

As new releases go on, power creep dictates that you WILL need Steel Path stuff to do current content, if not now it will be so in the future. Unless you just wanna clear to star chart and stop there, and don't do anything that comes after. I mean, they advertise all of this new content, new story quests, etc, and a lot of that is going to need better gear for you to do, especially if you wanna do it solo if that's even possible.

That sounds like advancing through a game's power progression path... gaining power doing one activity to become strong enough to engage in the next tier.

You are talking about going directly from where you left off, to plunging head first into the current endgame content, without going through any of the progression in between. OF COURSE you're going to be struggling to some extent, depending on how big that gap is, and how far from the top you were when you took the break.

Just for your information, I still use a Zaw, with barely any updated mods... and my Orthos Prime, that I've had for 6 years, only updated with prime mods as they've become available - none of which is locked behind anything special or difficult to solo.

I decided to turn on my PS4 and look at my current, endgame viable builds, just so you have an idea.

Polearm Plague Kripath Zaw (Bleeding Willow stance mod, Exodia Force)
Condition Overload, Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Primed Fever Strike
Sacrificial Steel, Fury, Vicious Frost, Volcanic Edge

That's a VERY not min-maxed weapon there... I know most people say to not mix PPP with CO, but I like the consistency and power ceiling. NONE of those mods require the new content, and it kills everything perfectly fine in the Netracell content, Archon Hunts, etc.

I use the Cedo as my "status primer" primary weapon with:
Critical Deceleration (Blunderbuss would be fine), Tactical Pump, Primed Point Blank, Charged Shell
Incendiary Coat, Vigilante Armaments, Primed Ravage, Galvanized Hell (Hell's Chamber would be just fine)

I use the Catchmoon kitgun secondary, with Pax Charge for infinite ammo, Cascadia Empowered (only one copy):
Hornet Strike, Jolt, Lethal Torrent, Barrel Diffusion
Magnum Force, Auger Pact, Primed Heated Charge, Creeping Bullseye

Nothing there necessarily requires endgame involvement... and it works against everything I've needed to take it up against. It's not META, it's not an AOE nuke build, but it works.

I also use Inaros primarily, so there's no crazy interactions going on that skyrockets my weaponry to absurd levels.

As I said above, the only reasons I can see for feeling the "need" to go public matchmaking, are for missions with objectives that are easier to complete in groups, such as Interception (you can't be in 4 places at once, and chasing the captured points is just not fun to me), or to accomplish clearing star chart nodes before you have the proper mods to have the power to kill the bosses easily yourself. This is all easily attainable prior to Steel Path, prior to the New War, prior to Duviri, prior to Whispers in the Walls...

[HeavyFarms]

38 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Oh. Just go solo.

Finally sink in? We can only hope. 

39 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Perpetually built for way higher content makes for some pretty poor soloing for most of the game once the novelty wears off,

Don't mistake your own opinion for anyone elses. 

Perpetually built for higher content means you are actually continually getting stronger via arcanes, the newest strongest mods, weapons and gear. 

You are perpetually low level. So you fight the same low level enemies on end, and complain that anyone who played the game in last 3 years makes you look weak. 

[Xylia]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

You want to play together? Cool, wanna run SP Circulus? It's my new favorite node. I'm actually testing a speedva build there now. Send me an invite in game

Nope, can't even do Steel Path because I need a ton of other crap and I'm stuck on getting a Necramech.

I'm slowly picking away at the star chart, which is starting to get boring AF, because most of them are the same thing, over and over again. Not sure why they thought they needed so many fricken nodes that are all identical, but whatever.

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

You need to farm those weapons and mods like everyone else did while you were taking a break. It takes time, don't worry, you'll get there.

My time is valuable to me, you know?

I'd like to just have fun in a game, and not have to feel like I'm working a 2nd job, hoping to have fun someday. This is why I usually log on and play for a few days and quit again because the mountain of work you have to do before you can have fun is just mind-boggling.

 

It's a game. You shouldn't need to dump 100+ hours before you can start having fun. I'd like to see the lore quests, is the main thing I'd like to see, because back in the day I used to actually care about the Warframe Lore, but.... quests are getting gated behind stupid stuff that you have to grind for and that's kinda depressing.

[HeavyFarms]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

As I said above, the only reasons I can see for feeling the "need" to go public matchmaking, are for missions with objectives that are easier to complete in groups, such as Interception 

I agree with most of what you said, but even interception can be done if you just bring the right frame for it. (Nova, Frost, anything that CC large areas.)

Merk and Company don't "want" to carry or be carried. Asking them to complete a mission on their own, is like asking them to have common sense. They get insecure if they hear the word "Good" on their team. 

[Aarrggghhhh]

4 minutes ago, Xylia said:

Nope, can't even do Steel Path because I need a ton of other crap and I'm stuck on getting a Necramech.

I'm slowly picking away at the star chart, which is starting to get boring AF, because most of them are the same thing, over and over again. Not sure why they thought they needed so many fricken nodes that are all identical, but whatever.

My time is valuable to me, you know?

I'd like to just have fun in a game, and not have to feel like I'm working a 2nd job, hoping to have fun someday. This is why I usually log on and play for a few days and quit again because the mountain of work you have to do before you can have fun is just mind-boggling.

 

It's a game. You shouldn't need to dump 100+ hours before you can start having fun. I'd like to see the lore quests, is the main thing I'd like to see, because back in the day I used to actually care about the Warframe Lore, but.... quests are getting gated behind stupid stuff that you have to grind for and that's kinda depressing.

It sounds to me like you don't like the game anymore. Which is understandable, it has changed a lot from launch.
So why keep playing if you're not enjoying it? Serious question.

[Berzerkules]

6 minutes ago, Xylia said:

I'm slowly picking away at the star chart, which is starting to get boring AF, because most of them are the same thing, over and over again. Not sure why they thought they needed so many fricken nodes that are all identical, but whatever.

My time is valuable to me, you know?

Everyone's time is valuable and that is why people run nuke builds. It gets them through the tedious stuff faster because WF has quite a few tedious grinds. 

You're almost there.

Edited January 28 by Berzerkules