Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Aruquae]

You people are forgetting how Eclipse functions now… sure changing it to additive damage sucks, but at least it’s a reliable damage boost. Her current eclipse sucks because of the light feature, you can barely get the damage boost even in light, and even then… it’s not even the full damage boost. 

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, DexXean said:

I always assumed everything said on  Dev stream isnt final and also saying "I think" to me at least clearly implies they were not too sure on final values/decisions yet. Over time in devs stream they always repeat the phrase "nothing is final its a dev build" so I was always under the assumption ANYTHING on dev streams should be taken with a grain of salt cuz any decision can change b4 it finally happens. So Pablo saying "I think" in his wording in the two times he really talks about mirage in the past dev streams I tells me its not a PROMISE if he mentions "I think".

Edit: whether eclipse is nerfed or changed or not I think ppl are being disingenuous saying Pablo made a Promise or final decision on stream live without him actually directly saying mirage would never get nerfed/changed

Yep, you make a very good point on a very good observation. I was thinking the exact same when I read the "I think" part of the quote provided. That part should have been underlined in addition to the rest of the bolding in that sentence. It caught my attention when I heard it on the stream aswell. I directly thoought that it would likely see an adjustment for both Mirage and Helminth if it was going to become a toggle since the massive downside of the skill would no longer be part of it. Heck we dont know yet if it is going to be a full toggle or a toggle with duration even, it if is a full toggle there are further benefits aswell, like practically removing the energy cost of it.

Regarding the edit. Yep, but it is the WF forums in a nutshell. If someone in a stream would say "We have this idea for a new frame" or "We want X in the game" then someone would shortly yell about something that was "promised"not yet being in the game.

[Goober2406]

Additive damage buffs that stack with serration are terrible. We already have acolyte arcanes for 360% boost, condition overload effects as well, please change vex armor to be multiplicative at a low rate and same thing for eclipse, if the dmg buff was 50% at base it would be good being multiplicative, but as is roar will almost always do a MUCH better job at boosting damage. At least if it has to be gutted then allow it to be combined with other damage boosters. Why can't mirage have eclipse and roar but saryn can have toxic lash and roar?

[Numerounius]

39 minutes ago, Goober2406 said:

Additive damage buffs that stack with serration are terrible. We already have acolyte arcanes for 360% boost, condition overload effects as well, please change vex armor to be multiplicative at a low rate and same thing for eclipse, if the dmg buff was 50% at base it would be good being multiplicative, but as is roar will almost always do a MUCH better job at boosting damage. At least if it has to be gutted then allow it to be combined with other damage boosters. Why can't mirage have eclipse and roar but saryn can have toxic lash and roar?

They literally showed that roar had a higher usage rate than eclipse but nooooo eclipse is the one that somehow needs to be nerfed for both Mirage and in helminth. But I think that is because roar affects abilities which other damage buffing options don't.

I also agree Vex armor needs to be buffed. It is way more conditional than other damage buffing abilities.

And ofc this got added to this "megathread" post so now it'll get lost.

[Ampathetiic]

54 minutes ago, DexXean said:

I always assumed everything said on  Dev stream isnt final and also saying "I think" to me at least clearly implies they were not too sure on final values/decisions yet. Over time in devs stream they always repeat the phrase "nothing is final its a dev build" so I was always under the assumption ANYTHING on dev streams should be taken with a grain of salt cuz any decision can change b4 it finally happens. So Pablo saying "I think" in his wording in the two times he really talks about mirage in the past dev streams I tells me its not a PROMISE if he mentions "I think".

If the "I think" is really so important, then the absence of that phrasing in the feedback thread should be a problem, since it is confidently stated there that Mirage wouldn't be affected. Once again, it's not our job to look for technicalities. Pablo should have clarified his indecision with something like "We don't plan to nerf Mirage, but we'll have to play test the changes and decide later." The feedback thread should have clarified this as well, especially since the thread had time to be phrased properly.

57 minutes ago, DexXean said:

Edit: whether eclipse is nerfed or changed or not I think ppl are being disingenuous saying Pablo made a Promise or final decision on stream live without him actually directly saying mirage would never get nerfed/changed

And it is just as disingenuous to say that these nerfs were the result of community feedback. In reality, this nerf was unexpected, and the frustration arises when everything previously suggested that Mirage wouldn't be nerfed.

I don't really care about things getting nerfed; I understand that a mix of buffing and nerfing leads to healthy game balance and a better player experience. I care more about the lack of transparency when transparency is the whole reason I keep up with devstreams and forum posts to begin with. They all but promised X, then did Y, and that bothers me.

[Numerounius]

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

You people are forgetting how Eclipse functions now… sure changing it to additive damage sucks, but at least it’s a reliable damage boost. Her current eclipse sucks because of the light feature, you can barely get the damage boost even in light, and even then… it’s not even the full damage boost. 

Problem is that people were using it in areas that were already super consistent. It is the most used ability in eidolon hunting since its consistency didn't matter whatsoever since you always got maximum solar buff due to moonlight.

Yes for regular Mirage mains and people using it in sweaty fissure pubs the consistency was awful, most notoriously around stairs, but there is no way that the usage rate for it is that high because of those players, a big portion of the usage comes from the hyper min-maxed eidolon hunters where the reliability was never a problem once the updated lighting engine hit/helminth update (not sure which came first).

I do agree that having it be a more reliable source should be a reason to have it knocked down in terms of power over other damage buffs but there are other points of contention when comparing it though.

[Xaiken-EN-]

2 hours ago, Aruquae said:

You people are forgetting how Eclipse functions now… sure changing it to additive damage sucks, but at least it’s a reliable damage boost. Her current eclipse sucks because of the light feature, you can barely get the damage boost even in light, and even then… it’s not even the full damage boost. 

Hmm yes just like why people play Chroma for Vex Armor regularly, reliable and not worth a damn. Wait a minute... do people still use Chroma? I understood and accepted that the Helminth version would be nerfed. But by changing it to additive dmg, which we have many more for. It's just useless for giving any meaningful dmg increase. We had a kiddy pool for dmg while so many other frames have Olympic pools for dmg. We could still swim around and have fun. You're basically saying we should be happy we got downgraded to a shot glass because now we get a straw with it.

[Aruquae]

40 minutes ago, Xaiken-EN- said:

Hmm yes just like why people play Chroma for Vex Armor regularly, reliable and not worth a damn. Wait a minute... do people still use Chroma? I understood and accepted that the Helminth version would be nerfed

Good thing the augment will fix the full buffs of vex armor. 

 

40 minutes ago, Xaiken-EN- said:

You're basically saying we should be happy we got downgraded to a shot glass because now we get a straw with it.

Reliable damage is always better than unreliable damage, I stick by that. There’s always roar. I just dislike how it affects Mirage more than any other frame. She didn’t need that nerf. 

[Xaiken-EN-]

11 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Good thing the augment will fix the full buffs of vex armor. 

 

Reliable damage is always better than unreliable damage, I stick by that. There’s always roar. I just dislike how it affects Mirage more than any other frame. She didn’t need that nerf. 

The Guardian Armor augment? Ha, I doubt that mod will give him any new life. It's not reliability in his Vex Armor thats an issue. The impact of his buffs isn't enough to justify running him over basically any other warframe except in Profit-taker. And even then thats just because he can boost credit drops. 
 

Also, with this nerf they'll be working against themselves. They want to rein in Nourish usage but they'll be removing a competitor. By their own statistics Eclipse is the third most used subsume but it only used 1/3 as much as Nourish, even Roar is only 1/2 of Nourish usage. And why use Eclipse when like you said Roar exists? At which point why not just switch to Rhino? You get Iron skin and a full power Roar. Defensives and dmg at the same time, a drawback Eclipse has intrinsically. He'll be more impactful than Mirage cause it won't even take a mod slot to buff allies with an All Dmg multiplier thats way stronger than Mirage's future additive Eclipse. While I agree reliability is good and important, reliability means nothing if it is not impactful. 

[DexXean]

2 hours ago, Ampathetiic said:

If the "I think" is really so important, then the absence of that phrasing in the feedback thread should be a problem, since it is confidently stated there that Mirage wouldn't be affected. Once again, it's not our job to look for technicalities. Pablo should have clarified his indecision with something like "We don't plan to nerf Mirage, but we'll have to play test the changes and decide later." The feedback thread should have clarified this as well, especially since the thread had time to be phrased properly.

And it is just as disingenuous to say that these nerfs were the result of community feedback. In reality, this nerf was unexpected, and the frustration arises when everything previously suggested that Mirage wouldn't be nerfed.

I don't really care about things getting nerfed; I understand that a mix of buffing and nerfing leads to healthy game balance and a better player experience. I care more about the lack of transparency when transparency is the whole reason I keep up with devstreams and forum posts to begin with. They all but promised X, then did Y, and that bothers me.

I just dont take things at face value right off the bat I guess. I understand it wasnt super clear but I never take what two devs say as if they will NEVER ever change their minds. I dont assume words as final never to be change when they  are asking about things like feedback in their threads.
I will agree though they should be explicit on exactly what they mean so people dont make assumptions and run with it like it is a fact since it has lead to this type of thread.

I guess they should just start saying as Disclaimer at the end of all statements about game balance that nothing they say is final and it is subject to change. I myself always assume things they ask about or talk about for the game is subject to change since its a ongoing process but it would be nice of them to disclaimer it so ppl dont flip out over every nerf/buff/change.

[UnstarPrime]

I'm going in with an open mind and guessing that this change will be a net positive.  If a player just wants increased damage, there are certainly better Helminth abilities to go for.  But if a player wants damage mitigation, Eclipse seems like it will be pretty top tier, and the option to turn it into additional damage when you don't need that mitigation is a nice cherry on top.

Time will tell, but my guess is that since Eclipse now works as consistent damage mitigation, its usage will overall increase, even if that coincides with players who just wanted damage discarding it.

Edited February 26 by UnstarPrime
typo

[Xquavier]

My problem is that this kind of steps on the toes of Chroma. With, again, how the game is laid out for this current update, a consistent buff in both Damage Reduction and Damage is a lot more reliable than taking damage through shield-gate health wise despite more than likely you will have lots of armor due to Scorn and other Arcanes. It fundamentally kind of ruins a bit of the frame identity between the two when one can just straight up do the same thing better than one another without having to do anything special at all, down to very output of the ability.

The only way they are different is how they are activated and what mechanics they dabble into. Chroma's goes into the same damage multipliers, but different Reductions which is mostly placed into Armor. Mirage goes into the same damage multipliers, but a overall Damage Reduction.

Edited February 26 by Xquavier

[Ampathetiic]

10 minutes ago, DexXean said:

I guess they should just start saying as Disclaimer at the end of all statements about game balance that nothing they say is final and it is subject to change. I myself always assume things they ask about or talk about for the game is subject to change since its a ongoing process but it would be nice of them to disclaimer it so ppl dont flip out over every nerf/buff/change.

The bare minimum for me would be for them to point out the switch in their thoughts and explain their reasoning behind it. It's really frustrating that in Devstream 177 (1:28:45), Pablo starts his explanation of the Mirage Eclipse nerf by saying "as we said last time, if we make it a toggle, we're going to have to nerf it some" as if the expectation was always that Mirage would get nerfed (which I hope I've demonstrated isn't the case).

Edit: If Pablo said something like "We initially said we weren't planning to nerf Mirage, but upon further play testing Eclipse is more powerful than we would like it to be, and we're going to make it buff base damage to be in line with other damage buffs." I wouldn't have a problem. I'd still probably disagree with the nerf, but that's far less important than the problems with developer communication.

Edited February 26 by Ampathetiic

[DexXean]

22 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

The bare minimum for me would be for them to point out the switch in their thoughts and explain their reasoning behind it. It's really frustrating that in Devstream 177 (1:28:45), Pablo starts his explanation of the Mirage Eclipse nerf by saying "as we said last time, if we make it a toggle, we're going to have to nerf it some" as if the expectation was always that Mirage would get nerfed (which I hope I've demonstrated isn't the case).

well one can hope Devs will be more clear on decisions. Always nice to know exactly how they come to decisions hopefully they are more clear about it next time.

From what I seeing in this case Mirage was probably more of a afterthought and brief rework of one ability they probably only had a few meetings about and they moved on and then communicated to the player base twice on forums and a few minutes on a dev stream and got back to us with the decision in the next dev stream.

I feel there is probably a lot more context to their decisions from their in house dev meetings between each other but we probably will never understand unless they decide to give us more details to pacify players upset over the changes.

I understand the player frustration over the wording and the nerf and their own assumption that mirage herself would not be affected but I still don't think a assumption is something to base an entire argument on. To voice frustration is okay but saying DE Juice on the forums implied meaning (edit: taking his word at face value as final) and that Pablo vagueness is the final fact that she will never be change is wrong. Cause that just assuming it as fact then running with it and staying ignorant that they still might change it or in this case nerf it. Even if  the assumption is a reasonable one its still assuming.

I think a general disclaimer would be the quickest way to cover topics without having to detail every exact detail that leads up to their decisions so they are not bog down by having to explain everything when their next dev meeting on the subject might just change their decision again shortly after.

Hopefully they take a look at why ppl are against this change and maybe in the future they may not make decisions that sets off the players against nerf like this. In this case a substantial decrease to the dmg provided from a dmg buff modifier which pretty much means its will just be used as a defensive ability now. They probably are in general trying to tone down the crazy synergy the game has in doing a lot of dmg for the sake of game balance in their eyes. I don't think her buff was all that strong to need a nerf myself. 

Edited February 26 by DexXean

[Aruquae]

1 hour ago, Xaiken-EN- said:

The Guardian Armor augment? Ha, I doubt that mod will give him any new life. It's not reliability in his Vex Armor thats an issue. The impact of his buffs isn't enough to justify running him over basically any other warframe except in Profit-taker. And even then thats just because he can boost credit drops. 

Fair, that was one problem Chroma had, but at least now he can get his buffs faster. I think you underestimate the buffs Chroma's vex armor can give. Try him out, he's fun.

 

1 hour ago, Xaiken-EN- said:

Also, with this nerf they'll be working against themselves. They want to rein in Nourish usage but they'll be removing a competitor. By their own statistics Eclipse is the third most used subsume but it only used 1/3 as much as Nourish, even Roar is only 1/2 of Nourish usage

This is true, at least the nourish helminth nerf made sense. This would... I admit, kind of make sense for helminth (and helminth only), but Mirage herself would've been completely fine with the multiplicative. After all, it would've been more of an incentive to play her.

 

1 hour ago, Xaiken-EN- said:

And why use Eclipse when like you said Roar exists? At which point why not just switch to Rhino? You get Iron skin and a full power Roar. Defensives and dmg at the same time, a drawback Eclipse has intrinsically.

Just because one ability is similar, but a frame has a stronger version of it, doesn't mean the entire frame is useless. Mirage has CC, along with built in multishot for memes. She's also great for high movement players unlike Rhino. Plus, her ability still has the damage reduction. I would (and will) use the ability just for how versatile it is. It would be good on my Limbo build. Extra damage reduction for tank, along with an extra boost of damage outside of his augment. 

[Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, DexXean said:

I understand the player frustration over the wording and the nerf and their own assumption that mirage herself would not be affected but I still don't think a assumption is something to base an entire argument on. To voice frustration is okay but saying DE Juice on the forums implied meaning (edit: taking his word at face value as final) and that Pablo vagueness is the final fact that she will never be change is wrong. Cause that just assuming it as fact then running with it and staying ignorant that they still might change it or in this case nerf it. Even if  the assumption is a reasonable one its still assuming.

It's truly baffling that someone would be in the wrong for making a reasonable assumption and taking a Warframe staff member's word at face value. Is it really fine that the expectation is for developers to mislead us and speak in dodgy language that is technically correct? I'm sorry, but if a game designer tells me that they're probably not going to nerf Mirage with this update, then a community post says that they aren't going to nerf Mirage with this update, I'm 1000% right for assuming that they aren't going to nerf Mirage with this update.

And of course I'm going to complain about it and support my points because I want to inform/persuade other players, and I want DE to do better. If everyone were to just grumble silently to themselves about their frustrations with a product, that product would never change.

1 hour ago, DexXean said:

is the final fact that she will never be change is wrong. Cause that just assuming it as fact then running with it and staying ignorant that they still might change it or in this case nerf it.

I want to address this point separately. I feel that it is pretty obvious that I'm not claiming DE will never change Mirage for the rest of Warframe's lifespan, so I see no reason to frame my argument that way. However, if it wasn't clear, I will clarify (mainly for the sake of logical consistency) that I'm arguing that DE's language heavily implied that this upcoming update would not come with any nerfs to Mirage's version of Eclipse. I don't really care if they nerf or buff Mirage; I just want them to be straightforward and transparent about it.

[DeathOfASaint]

7 hours ago, Xaiken-EN- said:

Hmm yes just like why people play Chroma for Vex Armor regularly, reliable and not worth a damn. Wait a minute... do people still use Chroma? 

chroma is still probably the go to frame for profit taker because of effigy lol just because he’s not the most used frame doesn’t mean nobody plays him

also vex armor is less reliable than eclipse, needs you to take damage for max buff while eclipse is just a toggle

there isn’t even a proper way to gauge frame usage rate 

Edited February 27 by DeathOfASaint

[RA1313ITS]

Should I switch Eclipse to Roar if/when these changes go through? 

[Nerthiril]

33 minutes ago, DeathOfASaint said:

chroma is still probably the go to frame for profit taker because of effigy lol just because he’s not the most used frame doesn’t mean nobody plays him

Apparently chroma has a 0.9 percent usage rate in 2023 but how much of that percent is people throwing him on for profit taker to credit farm? Feel like that is the only reason his ranking isn’t even lower than it is because he doubles credit drops. Without that I doubt people would even consider using him in pt. From what I heard they don’t even use VA in it. They just subsume eclipse or roar over it instead as they are more reliable (PT takes place during the daytime so no worry about eclipse suddenly swapping to DR during the fight)

[Aruquae]

33 minutes ago, RA1313ITS said:

Should I switch Eclipse to Roar if/when these changes go through? 

Do you use it for pure damage buff? If so probably yes. I would keep it just for the versatility it'll bring

It's also still a good damage boost, just probably not going to be as powerful as now

1 minute ago, Nerthiril said:

Apparently chroma has a 0.9 percent usage rate in 2023 but how much of that percent is people throwing him on for profit taker to credit farm? Feel like that is the only reason his ranking isn’t even lower than it is because he doubles credit drops. Without that I doubt people would even consider using him in pt. From what I heard they don’t even use VA in it. They just subsume eclipse or roar over it instead as they are more reliable (PT takes place during the daytime so no worry about eclipse suddenly swapping to DR during the fight)

Was that including Chroma Prime? Usually base frames don't have high usage if their Prime exists

[Nerthiril]

39 minutes ago, RA1313ITS said:

Should I switch Eclipse to Roar if/when these changes go through? 

Maybe, if you are looking for just the strongest damage buff. But Eclipse can still be used to give Dr if you suddenly find yourself on the back foot and need to run away to get some breathing room. But I can still hit for millions with my bow with Vex armor. I’m sure a high str eclipse build can do the same so it’s really up to preference 

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Was that including Chroma Prime? Usually base frames don't have high usage if their Prime exists

Yes. Chroma base has a 0.1 usage from what I saw. Which kinda makes sense. The only people who really use chroma are those who have been using him for a while and have massive str builds. He is very underwhelming when you first get him when you realize that VA is the only substantial ability he has. So that probably draws people away. And those who do stick with chroma to the late game probably have the prime anyways so there is very little reason to use base.

Edited February 27 by Nerthiril

[DeathOfASaint]

1 hour ago, Nerthiril said:

Apparently chroma has a 0.9 percent usage rate in 2023 but how much of that percent is people throwing him on for profit taker to credit farm? Feel like that is the only reason his ranking isn’t even lower than it is because he doubles credit drops. 

doubling credit drops is his signature ability though, it’s a pretty sizeable increase it’s like saying who would play khora without her whipclaw or revenant without his mesmer skin, like yeah nobody would 

he still has a niche more than 95% of frames just bc of double creds, like i honestly play chroma more than mirage just due to this fact for PT runs 

also nobody plays base chroma when you need to farm 3 other frames to build him 

thats why i said going off usage is dumb, the stat is mega ambiguous and it’s kept that way for a reason

mirage players parrot nobody plays her why touch her etc when her usage is apparently 1.40%

Edited February 27 by DeathOfASaint

[Redrigoth]

12 hours ago, Aruquae said:

You people are forgetting how Eclipse functions now… sure changing it to additive damage sucks, but at least it’s a reliable damage boost. Her current eclipse sucks because of the light feature, you can barely get the damage boost even in light, and even then… it’s not even the full damage boost. 

Even 100% multiplicative is better than 300% additive. Changing it to additive is bs and the few people defending it have no real argument and keep pretending the ability can't be balanced by simply reducing its % rather than ruining it.

[Aruquae]

7 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

Even 100% multiplicative is better than 300% additive. Changing it to additive is bs and the few people defending it have no real argument and keep pretending the ability can't be balanced by simply reducing its % rather than ruining it.

It’s almost as if you didn’t read the part where I agreed it sucked. 
All I said is it doesn’t matter if it affects someone’s helminth build because they got Roar as a replacement. The fact that it affects poor Mirage is the problem. 
I’m personally fine with the change if it means I know when I’m getting a damage boost. Going into a well lit environment only for it to count as “shadows” sucks. 
Think of my thought process this way: “100% additive with a 100% chance is better than a 300% multiplicative with less than a 1% chance of actually happening. That ability was too buggy to reliably get the bonus outside of open world, or changing your settings just for that ability (which I think they patched a while ago, need confirmation).

Edit: Of course reducing the damage% like you proposed would’ve been better, but I think they don’t want another nourish ability (something that can do multiple great things at once). 

Edited February 27 by Aruquae

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Ampathetiic said:

The bare minimum for me would be for them to point out the switch in their thoughts and explain their reasoning behind it. It's really frustrating that in Devstream 177 (1:28:45), Pablo starts his explanation of the Mirage Eclipse nerf by saying "as we said last time, if we make it a toggle, we're going to have to nerf it some" as if the expectation was always that Mirage would get nerfed (which I hope I've demonstrated isn't the case).

Edit: If Pablo said something like "We initially said we weren't planning to nerf Mirage, but upon further play testing Eclipse is more powerful than we would like it to be, and we're going to make it buff base damage to be in line with other damage buffs." I wouldn't have a problem. I'd still probably disagree with the nerf, but that's far less important than the problems with developer communication.

Edited 18 hours ago by Ampathetiic

The problem with alot of the reasoning around this and the wording of the feedback thread is the following.

Even if they had said and stated that "it might get nerfed" the outcome of the votes would have been the same. Since we wouldnt know how it would be changed, we just know that we'd vote between, a permanent guaranteed buff that is toggled, or the old one with unreliable use based on light sources around the maps together with a light source fix for maps that dont work.

People would have voted for the consistant buff without a doubt. This because the sporadic Mirage players outnumber the die hard "I've memorized all light positions on every map" Mirage players by the thousands most likely. For me it was a no brainer to place the vote on the toggle, even if I assumed it would get a nerf in return for always being active at max. Since I simply prefer reliable and consistant things over situational ones.