Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Ampathetiic]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

My point is it would be meaningless if they specified it since it would make no difference in the end. We all know they can change what they like when they like how they like. So people being upset over this not being mentioned specifically is kind of silly in my mind, since the outcome wouldnt change eitherway.

You either don't care about transparency or didn't read my other posts. Either way, they reverted the changes to something more consistent with their initial proposal, so I'm mostly satisfied.

[Skoomaseller]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

My point is it would be meaningless if they specified it since it would make no difference in the end. We all know they can change what they like when they like how they like. So people being upset over this not being mentioned specifically is kind of silly in my mind, since the outcome wouldnt change eitherway.

They could make it work like Roar (Bane) aswell, that way the two would be the same but different. But then they'd also have to rework the Mirage version since 200% Bane would uhm be way way way way way too much.

Roar for buffing everything and others with Bane. Eclipse for buffing weapons but not abilities or others with Bane. The trade off would be that Eclipse also offers utility through a DR buff and can be recast at will. If not, 50 or 60% final multiplicative would be fair since it only applies to weapons.

However I'm more interested in the DR buff myself now that it is guaranteed, since Roar already exsists for damage.

while true that the outcome wouldn't change, I still think being transparent about it would go a long way, so we know what they're cooking, and can provide feedback.

whether they take said feedback is up to them because like you said, they can do whatever they want. but the point is that we should know, at the very least. 

Edited February 28 by Skoomaseller

[SneakyErvin]

16 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

You either don't care about transparency or didn't read my other posts. Either way, they reverted the changes to something more consistent with their initial proposal, so I'm mostly satisfied.

In cases like these which is gameplay related stuff, nope I dont care about transparency since I hit the OK button on the ToS both in WF and so many other live service games in the past. So the only transparency I need regarding game changes are the patch notes so I know what has been changed.

And the transparency was there aswell, maybe not in the thread, but came from Pablo as he described how it would change. So gave people more than enough time to react on the specific changes before they had a chance to go live. Anything they could have provided in the thread would have been pointless, since it would have just been a vague disclaimer of "it might change... in some way, but we dont actually know, but maybe, perhaps, if we see a need, or not". And when it would be that vague, considering how knee-jerk the community can be, I rather have it left out so people simply vote without going chicken little, doom and gloom by overthinking "what if...?" situations that would even put Dr. Strange to shame.

8 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

while true that the outcome wouldn't change, I still think being transparent about it would go a long way, so we know what they're cooking, and can provide feedback.

whether they take said feedback is up to them because like you said, they can do whatever they want. but the point is that we should know, at the very least. 

That would also require them to know what they'd plan to do if toggle became the winning choice. Which isnt positive they knew at that point in time. Because why plan for something that might not happen when you already have other things to work on as things get decided by the community? The transparency came at the right point through the recent devstream.

Also, imagine how many pointless additional ideas they'd need to go through in the thread if they also wanted opinions regarding how it should change in damage if that ever became a reality. We already had plenty of horrible ideas that came in addition to the simple vote of toggle+nerf helminth vs reworking light sources on some maps.

Edited February 28 by SneakyErvin

[Skoomaseller]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would also require them to know what they'd plan to do if toggle became the winning choice. Which isnt positive they knew at that point in time. Because why plan for something that might not happen when you already have other things to work on as things get decided by the community? The transparency came at the right point through the recent devstream.

Also, imagine how many pointless additional ideas they'd need to go through in the thread if they also wanted opinions regarding how it should change in damage if that ever became a reality. We already had plenty of horrible ideas that came in addition to the simple vote of toggle+nerf helminth vs reworking light sources on some maps.

I mean that really is the point of the forums lol, everyone has a voice. They've got employees on paycheck to comb through our feedback, no matter how good or bad it is.

otherwise why keep this place alive when it's just S#&$-flinging at each other in General Discussion? xd

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Skoomaseller said:

I mean that really is the point of the forums lol, everyone has a voice. They've got employees on paycheck to comb through our feedback, no matter how good or bad it is.

otherwise why keep this place alive when it's just S#&$-flinging at each other in General Discussion? xd

I'm just saying why ask for feedback or be transparent on something you dont even know will be a thing? Which is why I think the info regarding the planned changes came at the right time, well ahead of the patch and after DE had decided on an approach regarding what they thought was needed. We would have probably had the same situation on the forums eitherway, just slightly differently worded. Since if DE had said "might get nerfed" and people had voted "toggle, helminth nerf, no mirage nerf" and DE had done the same changes as they initially did the forums would blow up all the same. But instead of "not transparent" it would be "DE ignores feedback!".

DE are often in a damned if I do damned if I dont situation. In reality, people of this community dont know how good DE are at communicating things compared to most other companies. DE is that drunk uncle that tends to say a bit too much while most other companies are that dead clam in your soup that wont open up.

[Aruquae]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

DE are often in a damned if I do damned if I dont situation. In reality, people of this community dont know how good DE are at communicating things compared to most other companies.

Shhhh, don’t expose our secrets. 

 

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

DE is that drunk uncle that tends to say a bit too much while most other companies are that dead clam in your soup that wont open up.

Tbf I’d rather have the drunk uncle instead of the dead clam. At least the drunk uncle tells you what he’s thinking. 

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Shhhh, don’t expose our secrets. 

 

Tbf I’d rather have the drunk uncle instead of the dead clam. At least the drunk uncle tells you what he’s thinking. 

Indeed I also prefer the drunk uncle. So far I've had the pleasant experience of two, Digital Extremes and Gazillion Entertainment, sadly the second mentioned uncle died, he got assassinated by the big mouse. No white silk gloves that time, it utilized the full power of the Death Star. 😧

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm just saying why ask for feedback or be transparent on something you dont even know will be a thing? 

I think the very fact that things can get ambiguous is reason enough to ask for transparency, no? like telling us "hey guys, this is a thing we're working on, may or may not come to fruition" is good enough. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since if DE had said "might get nerfed" and people had voted "toggle, helminth nerf, no mirage nerf" and DE had done the same changes as they initially did the forums would blow up all the same. But instead of "not transparent" it would be "DE ignores feedback!".

DE are often in a damned if I do damned if I dont situation. In reality, people of this community dont know how good DE are at communicating things compared to most other companies. DE is that drunk uncle that tends to say a bit too much while most other companies are that dead clam in your soup that wont open up.

people will react accordingly to what they do. it's just unfortunate that a lot of people (sometimes myself included) fall into this trap.

regardless, they should keep up the transparency, no matter what the community's reaction will be. they've been doing this for a while, so I don't see any reason why they should suddenly go silent.

Yes, people take this for granted, I agree, and DE has many times found themselves in a bind (by their own doing or by the community), but I don't think it's unreasonable to encourage them to keep doing what they've been doing for so long now. 

Edited February 28 by Skoomaseller

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

28 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

I think the very fact that things can get ambiguous is reason enough to ask for transparency, no? like telling us "hey guys, this is a thing we're working on, may or may not come to fruition" is good enough. 

DE used to have a white board that did just that and the community absolutely burned then for it. The worst example was with Empyrean, where DE very clearly and honestly told the community it was so new of an experience, that it was going to be buggy and they would need our help to find and report as soon as possible in order to dial it in. Instead, the community, and YouTubers, torched them, despite having full transparency. The community used transparency against DE and it clearly showed we weren't ready to be in the actual, game defining, conversation. We failed.

Even here in this thread, there's still arguments about why the reverted Eclipse isn't better than Roar, despite one ability having a defense ability toggle...two abilities in one. Players are not being reasonable and, unfortunately, DE has long since taken notes on that. "Just give them what they want...even though it goes against the other thing they want". They're really trying, and keep a positive attitude about it, but there are too many pessimistic, selfish and unreasonable people that speak loudly, get their way, but also claim they aren't being heard.

How do we fix that?

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

I think the very fact that things can get ambiguous is reason enough to ask for transparency, no? like telling us "hey guys, this is a thing we're working on, may or may not come to fruition" is good enough. 

people will react accordingly to what they do. it's just unfortunate that a lot of people (sometimes myself included) fall into this trap.

regardless, they should keep up the transparency, no matter what the community's reaction will be. they've been doing this for a while, so I don't see any reason why they should suddenly go silent.

Yes, people take this for granted, I agree, and DE has many times found themselves in a bind (by their own doing or by the community), but I don't think it's unreasonable to encourage them to keep doing what they've been doing for so long now. 

As @(PSN)GEN-Son_17points out, that has burned them previously. Empyrean still gets flak for that and when people point out "DE told us it would be buggy and released to get help from the community" people go "no they didnt" even though they did. So for me, waiting until they have something concrete to inform us with is better, less chance for people to misinterpret, exaggerate or conveniantly forget as agendas change. Heck, we just had a massive misconception in the thread regarding the upcoming game mode, where apparently the most recent info was not the most relevant or up to date according to one specific person. With a bunch of made up ideas of what can and cannot be changed this close to release etc. Then funnily enough we have this thread, giving criticism towards a thing that requires far wider changes than that other thing, followed by an official thread that informs us that these far wider changes have been made. And here I thought according to that other specific person that we were waaay too close to patch day for such big changes to occur.

Yep yep, we're all there at times. But what can we do? We are in the end just stupid humans that love drama, over reactions and exaggeration. We are afterall a race of beings that argue with eachother over imaginary friends, some even taking it further than that. 

I'm fine with them being transparent when they have something real to reveal. Before that, better for them to stay quiet. Though lol, in some cases them being transparent regarding certain things ahead of time would be smart, like *cough*heirlooms*cough* and *cough*resurgence*cough*.

When DE does something doodoo similar to a previous DE doodoo I feel like John Connor in Terminator 2 asking Arny "Are we learning yet?". At which point I imagine DE targetting me with either (or both) of two other Arny incarnations from that movie, A: The fake oblivious smile(s) from the directors cut at the desert burger bar, or B: "Shut up, $&*^wad..." when John teaches him to combine slang words.

[Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The community used transparency against DE and it clearly showed we weren't ready to be in the actual, game defining, conversation. We failed.

Even here in this thread, there's still arguments about why the reverted Eclipse isn't better than Roar, despite one ability having a defense ability toggle...two abilities in one. Players are not being reasonable and, unfortunately, DE has long since taken notes on that. "Just give them what they want...even though it goes against the other thing they want". They're really trying, and keep a positive attitude about it, but there are too many pessimistic, selfish and unreasonable people that speak loudly, get their way, but also claim they aren't being heard.

Most feedback is going to be suggesting what should change, so it's going to skew negative, even if the people really like the game overall. And it should be that way, as there's no point in pretending to be satisfied with something you aren't satisfied with. Express your opinions and be loud with the hope that something will change.

For the Eclipse changes, it isn't that people are being contradictory; they just have different opinions on the balance. If DE nerfed Helminth Eclipse even harder (let's say 15% damage boost, 25% damage reduction), you'd probably agree that they destroyed the ability, even though they said they'd have to nerf the ability if they made it a toggle. You have the right to disagree and argue with other players, but they're giving their feedback based on their observations and opinions.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

DE are often in a damned if I do damned if I dont situation. In reality, people of this community dont know how good DE are at communicating things compared to most other companies. DE is that drunk uncle that tends to say a bit too much while most other companies are that dead clam in your soup that wont open up.

We can be appreciative of developers, but let us remember that we have a consumer-producer relationship with them. They are making money from us, and we are looking for the best video game to give our time/money to. It isn't making the game any better by shutting down valid criticism because DE is one of the good ones. I agree that DE is better than many studios, which is why I bother trying to give my feedback in the first place.

If you want to see how much appreciation people show for this game, go look at the fan art, reviews, video essays, cosplays, player metrics, annual events, and the fact that this game has been going for more than a decade! DE are not unsung heroes; they are very well appreciated. If you don't think there's enough praise, go contribute to one of those things.

To tie this back to transparency, I can't give feedback on something I can't know about. Of course DE are going to receive less flak if they hide things, but that just means that the community doesn't get to give their feedback before something releases. People were still going to make bug compilations about Railjack, because Railjack was a buggy update. DE being transparent doesn't change that, but it does give the consumer a better idea of what's happening.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Ampathetiic said:

Most feedback is going to be suggesting what should change, so it's going to skew negative, even if the people really like the game overall. And it should be that way, as there's no point in pretending to be satisfied with something you aren't satisfied with. Express your opinions and be loud with the hope that something will change.

For the Eclipse changes, it isn't that people are being contradictory; they just have different opinions on the balance. If DE nerfed Helminth Eclipse even harder (let's say 15% damage boost, 25% damage reduction), you'd probably agree that they destroyed the ability, even though they said they'd have to nerf the ability if they made it a toggle. You have the right to disagree and argue with other players, but they're giving their feedback based on their observations and opinions.

I agree and love good, constructive conversations about changes or ideas.  However, I think it's important for us to still be careful about how the overall direction the community's feedback message appears to DE. Despite naysayers, our opinions hold weight and the loudest may give the wrong appearance of the majority's say. 

Your "If DE nerfed Helminth Eclipse even harder (let's say 15% damage boost, 25% damage reduction)" example would be a reasonable discussion to have, as the effects don't have enough impact on neither defense nor offense. However, what we have is a more reliable, considerably more useful version of the original ability, with a sustained offensive or defensive buff...and that caused complaints. With even a sub decent build, subsumed Eclipse will destroy SP enemies and protect any warframe. Asking for more power is ok, but some of the more aggressive demands need to be called out because it can hurt is in the future, IMO .

Overall though, you are absolutely correct.

[Goddess_Freyja]

just one word... WHY ?

[Skoomaseller]

4 hours ago, Ampathetiic said:

Most feedback is going to be suggesting what should change, so it's going to skew negative, even if the people really like the game overall. And it should be that way, as there's no point in pretending to be satisfied with something you aren't satisfied with. Express your opinions and be loud with the hope that something will change.

For the Eclipse changes, it isn't that people are being contradictory; they just have different opinions on the balance. If DE nerfed Helminth Eclipse even harder (let's say 15% damage boost, 25% damage reduction), you'd probably agree that they destroyed the ability, even though they said they'd have to nerf the ability if they made it a toggle. You have the right to disagree and argue with other players, but they're giving their feedback based on their observations and opinions.

We can be appreciative of developers, but let us remember that we have a consumer-producer relationship with them. They are making money from us, and we are looking for the best video game to give our time/money to. It isn't making the game any better by shutting down valid criticism because DE is one of the good ones. I agree that DE is better than many studios, which is why I bother trying to give my feedback in the first place.

If you want to see how much appreciation people show for this game, go look at the fan art, reviews, video essays, cosplays, player metrics, annual events, and the fact that this game has been going for more than a decade! DE are not unsung heroes; they are very well appreciated. If you don't think there's enough praise, go contribute to one of those things.

To tie this back to transparency, I can't give feedback on something I can't know about. Of course DE are going to receive less flak if they hide things, but that just means that the community doesn't get to give their feedback before something releases. People were still going to make bug compilations about Railjack, because Railjack was a buggy update. DE being transparent doesn't change that, but it does give the consumer a better idea of what's happening.

yes thank you worded it better than I ever could

[Redrigoth]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

In cases like these which is gameplay related stuff, nope I dont care about transparency since I hit the OK button on the ToS both in WF and so many other live service games in the past. So the only transparency I need regarding game changes are the patch notes so I know what has been changed.

You can be conditioned to be a grateful peasant that is glad to even be glanced at if you want. Others invest time and money in the game and expect it to be reasonably in line with expectations (yes i know not all feedback is reasonable).

Edited February 29 by Redrigoth

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-02-23 at 2:38 PM, KitMeHarder said:

The devs have officially responded. It's not a perfect response in my opinion, as the helminth version was nerfed way too much (only a mere 30% damage buff). But I'm grateful that they're listening and that they said things are still subject to change.

 

NOTE: This is about Eclipse only. So this means it's about every frame+Eclipse, not just Mirage.

For those that don't know, on the Devstream Pablo has said that Eclipse will now be base damage like Serration/Vex Armor. This is honestly horrible, as Warframe is saturated with base damage sources in 2024 (360-480% arcanes, Gundition Overload, Condition Overload, Hornet Strike, Killing Blow, Void Strike, etc...). Eclipse and any other buff like it is strong because it's a unique multiplier that isn't barraged by diminishing returns. It needs to stay that way even if it's reduced a bit.

Pablo also said the helminth version will be capped at 350% because "that's what it has at current", which isn't correct. It has diminished effectiveness, but no cap as you can easily get above 350% even with the lower starting value we currently have.

--------------------------

Here's the math with the normal ability.

• Current Eclipse - (1+x)*(1+2)
• New Eclipse - (1+x+3.5)

With just 75% base damage (Horrent Strike alone is 220%), current and new Eclipse will do the same damage in max light. With current Eclipse doing significantly more damage the more base damage you have.... For an example, my Kuva Nukor with no outside buffs has 1,080% base damage alone.

Here's a graph to show the difference as you increase base damage.

Not to mention, Eclipse is one of the few competitors Nourish has (which they're also nerfing because it's used "too much"). So all that just to make Nourish even more of a uncontended choice? (Seriously, Eclipse's unreliability is a significant reason why I switched many of my builds to a helminth like Nourish. And recently I was excited to finally drop an allrounder like Nourish for a more DPS oriented option.... So much for that.)

Does this mean that its gonna be a toggle between damage reduction, and buff, for every other frame too? 

 

Because if so forget the damage part entirely first thing im gonna do is make Inaros 2.0 even more stupid tanky

[KitMeHarder]

20 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

the point is that Chroma has been changed to base damage and nobody likes it, but when Mirage gets changed to base damage and half the players don't like it it gets changed back. It's weird.

By all means, I think Chroma should have multiplicative damage again (150%?). But don't forget how many years ago that was, I'm sure plenty of people voiced their disagreement (not to mention we're no longer playing Scott's Warframe). And I'm sure Pablo being the new Design (balance) Director played a part in this change actually getting overturned. Not to mention Reb as the Creative Director.

(Don't get me wrong, I love Steve. But Reb and Pablo are much more in touch with the game and community.)

[KitMeHarder]

2 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Does this mean that its gonna be a toggle between damage reduction, and buff, for every other frame too?

As far as I know, yes. It'll be the same 75% cap helminth currently has. (Doesn't apply to toxin I've been told.)

Meme it up.

[Aruquae]

7 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Because if so forget the damage part entirely first thing im gonna do is make Inaros 2.0 even more stupid tanky

Right? Everyone’s complaining about the damage nerf, but no one is talking about the first helminth ability that gives DR (minus extra armor abilities). So much potential for this ability…

[Skoomaseller]

20 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Right? Everyone’s complaining about the damage nerf, but no one is talking about the first helminth ability that gives DR (minus extra armor abilities). So much potential for this ability…

isn't it capped at like 75% or something 

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

isn't it capped at like 75% or something 

Currently yes, I doubt it would get a change (maybe reduced by 5% like the base), but the fact that it’s an on-demand free DR ability I can put on any frame is what’s nice. 
I mean… I could do that with the current eclipse, but we all know it wouldn’t do jackS#&$ 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Ampathetiic said:

We can be appreciative of developers, but let us remember that we have a consumer-producer relationship with them. They are making money from us, and we are looking for the best video game to give our time/money to. It isn't making the game any better by shutting down valid criticism because DE is one of the good ones. I agree that DE is better than many studios, which is why I bother trying to give my feedback in the first place.

If you want to see how much appreciation people show for this game, go look at the fan art, reviews, video essays, cosplays, player metrics, annual events, and the fact that this game has been going for more than a decade! DE are not unsung heroes; they are very well appreciated. If you don't think there's enough praise, go contribute to one of those things.

To tie this back to transparency, I can't give feedback on something I can't know about. Of course DE are going to receive less flak if they hide things, but that just means that the community doesn't get to give their feedback before something releases. People were still going to make bug compilations about Railjack, because Railjack was a buggy update. DE being transparent doesn't change that, but it does give the consumer a better idea of what's happening.

It's not about shutting down criticism. It's simply about revealing and talking about what they actually know and revealing and talking about what they dont know when they say it. I'm 100% getting behind people saying how they felt regarding the Eclipse damage formula change/new value even if I dont agree with the opinion, since it was about something known and relevant. And obviously DE gets alot of appriciation, no one says otherwise, it just happens to be that the loud minority uses everything in a negative way when they get their hands on it, like RJ transparency, which some content creators even fed on through click bait content. Acting as if the info regarding the content way ahead of releases wasnt a thing, acting surprised and straight up deregatory towards DE. So it isnt a shocker that DE have gone more silent after that. Prior to that they talked about everything, too much at times. But when even relevant info gets willingly ignored I'd do the same and cut back on talking about releases or planned changes until they are a reality.

 

9 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

You can be conditioned to be a grateful peasant that is glad to even be glanced at if you want. Others invest time and money in the game and expect it to be reasonably in line with expectations (yes i know not all feedback is reasonable).

I think I'd rather be a grateful peasant than an exaggerating doom and gloomer. Because the riot over this change is uhm rather silly since most people would barely notice a difference, and if they did it would likely be in the positive due to the simple change over to a toggle instead of a random light based buff. And most wouldnt notice it at all since they dont run any content where a change from final to base multiplier would matter.

And as @Voltage(I think) pointed out, the change to from final to base would be more healthy for the game.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

isn't it capped at like 75% or something 

Its capped at 95% if you have enough strength and i dont think it takes much to do it. I think they said theyre reducing it to 90% (not 100% sure) but still.

The reason nobody ever cared or gave a fart about it for DR is the actual amount of damage reduction you get, depends on the light source math, which we all know can be jank. The game might not give you DR at all and if it did, it might not be a full buff. 

It also reduces enemy accuracy. 

Unless im forgetting something, it would be the best subsumable DR ability. 

Id try it on hildryn too just for the hell of it.

 

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Currently yes, I doubt it would get a change (maybe reduced by 5% like the base), but the fact that it’s an on-demand free DR ability I can put on any frame is what’s nice. 
I mean… I could do that with the current eclipse, but we all know it wouldn’t do jackS#&$ 

See above.

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Its capped at 95% if you have enough strength and i dont think it takes much to do it. I think they said theyre reducing it to 90% (not 100% sure) but still.

I swore that was just the base form of it… helminth was capped at 75%…

Also you’re right, they are reducing it to 90% “To make it more consistent with other damage reduction abilities”

 

3 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

The reason nobody ever cared or gave a fart about it for DR is the actual amount of damage reduction you get, depends on the light source math, which we all know can be jank. The game might not give you DR at all and if it did, it might not be a full buff. 

It also reduces enemy accuracy. 

Precisely why I’m excited about it 

[Aruquae]

5 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Unless im forgetting something, it would be the best subsumable DR ability

I think that’s because it’s the only one that gives DR… unless I’m missing something. Only other subsume that gives damage reduction (from what I can remember) was the ability to convert shields to armor, along with Chroma’s elemental ward for armor (as armor gives damage reduction to health).