Holy crap did they really DEstroy Grendel.

[Hypertion]

That's a hilarious shame... back when he was launched he was one of the strongest frames overall. he was only unpopular due to difficulty in getting and the fact you had to work to maintain his energy economy... I get why they capped the number of enemies via Feast, but removing the damage scaling on his now swapped 3 and 4? what was the point in that? both were useful as Damage dealers, not op but felt useful regardless of the level of the enemies you were facing.. now at best they can strip armor and that's barely a complement. I get removing the damage scaling on the AOE on Pulverize as that allowed Grendel to clear rooms simply by bouncing around, but removing it from the direct contact of pulverize as well as being totally gone from Regurgitate, which is now his ULTIMATE. God that's DEpressing. It was backwards decision making like this that made me not play for over 3 years.

 

So I guess all the meat man can do is be a tanky armor stripper now... Yippie, like we dont have enough other frames that do the exact same thing. I guess i shouldn't be surprised.

[Traumtulpe]

Grendel has infinite energy, easy shield gating, is insanely tanky, insanely fast. has 2 armor strips, the best party (and self) buff in the entire game, great self healing, and his 4 literally nukes level cap in one cast, regardless of shields or armor. Also his subsume ability is so op that even after getting nerfed hard, it's still the most popular ability by far, and is going to get nerfed *even more* (and will still remain the most popular by far).

How aweful.

Edited March 1 by Traumtulpe

[AntifreezeUnder0]

50 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Grendel has infinite energy, easy shield gating, is insanely tanky, insanely fast. has 2 armor strips, the best party (and self) buff in the entire game, great self healing, and his 4 literally nukes level cap in one cast, regardless of shields or armor. Also his subsume ability is so op that even after getting nerfed hard, it's still the most popular ability by far, and is going to get nerfed *even more* (and will still remain the most popular by far).

How aweful.

And still grendel does less dmg with all that. Meanwhile braindead tileclear frames get indirect buffs, while grendel needed to get nerf because it was not fun for others if 1 frame could clear/eat 1 room.

[Vryheid]

13 hours ago, Hypertion said:

That's a hilarious shame... back when he was launched he was one of the strongest frames overall. he was only unpopular due to difficulty in getting and the fact you had to work to maintain his energy economy... I get why they capped the number of enemies via Feast, but removing the damage scaling on his now swapped 3 and 4? what was the point in that? both were useful as Damage dealers, not op but felt useful regardless of the level of the enemies you were facing.. now at best they can strip armor and that's barely a complement. I get removing the damage scaling on the AOE on Pulverize as that allowed Grendel to clear rooms simply by bouncing around, but removing it from the direct contact of pulverize as well as being totally gone from Regurgitate, which is now his ULTIMATE. God that's DEpressing. It was backwards decision making like this that made me not play for over 3 years.

 

So I guess all the meat man can do is be a tanky armor stripper now... Yippie, like we dont have enough other frames that do the exact same thing. I guess i shouldn't be surprised.

If you had just said "I don't know how to play Grendel and I don't understand how to make an effective build with his current mechanics" then that would be a good starting point to at least get you educated on what you're talking about, but since you're rambling on about balance changes that either 1. are incredibly out of date or 2. flat out didn't happen (removed the damage scaling from regurgitate? really?), it doesn't sound like you're interested in a productive discussion. Here's a hint, there's this little system called subsuming in the game now that lets you use abilities from other Warframes, and if you use Breach Surge over Grendel's 3 it's really, really powerful and lets him do way more than being a "tanky armor stripper". I'll leave it to you to figure out the mechanics of why. 

[Hypertion]

2 hours ago, Vryheid said:

it doesn't sound like you're interested in a productive discussion

🤣 lmao right back at ya.

[quxier]

20 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

and his 4 literally nukes level cap in one cast, regardless of shields or armor.

Without any setup?  Any specific builds?

I used to play with his ball but I've not played enough with his 4th.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

So what's your point?

That Grendel was stronger before than he is now when it's clearly not the case?

That Grendel as he used to be could've been meta defining had his grind been easy?

Grendel as he is now can kill just about anything with about 50 bonus ability strength at any level. That's gotta be worth something, no?

I mean, I'm not an expert in game balance or anything, but Grendel isn't very demanding on anything, be it mods, skills at the game, or attention span. He just kinda does his own thing, like a Revenant would, except he's actually able to help the team. Good enough in my book.

 

What can Grendel do? I'll tell you what.

• Go fast.
• Kill easily anything.
• Strip armor.
• Provide with infinite energy.
• Increase weapon damage.
• Force anything to take 325% extra health damage by just existing.
• Infinitely regenerate his own health.
• All of the above all at once without even relying on the helminth system.
• Decide to drop either Pulverize or Regurgitate to use a helminth ability, yet still remain able to remove armor.

 

I don't know where you're coming from with your take, Grendel has always been some of my most played frames ever since his release, but I don't miss any of his piss awful defaults that he had that were since patched. Not having a bottomless gut anymore is a small price to pay to have builds be viable without Arcane Energize. Not only that, but that horrendous ramping up energy drain that you were getting from just playing the game as you were meant to was complete garbage and it still baffles me that Ember still has that flaw to this day.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

That Grendel was stronger before than he is now when it's clearly not the case?

 

Grendel was stronger before rework. Now with 500% stenght on lvl 150 enemies you dont do near as much dmg as, 177% strenght pre-rework grendel with scaling w/o armor strip and viral stacks. 

Gut upkeep wasnt a problem, unless were copy paste high strenght meta + energize. I could run arround with 40 enemies in got for minutes, but caivat was run gourmand and gloom. And as soon as i switch to pulverize it was 2 to 4 slams and gut was dead and outside gut was dead along them.

Downside to grendel is that on default enemy lvls arent high enough for him to realy shine.

Reworked grendel has  its certain benefits, but dont bs me that with 3x more strenght and 3x more duration with armor strip, viral stacks dmg is no where near to as it used to be, but pre-rework grendel was in a way broken once one had energy/health drain under wraps , since at some point due to scaling it became 1 shots roll on lvl 3k+ up to lvl cap. 

After rework, upkeeping feast in squads is problem, enemy ammount in gut is a problem, since 10 enemies would let 5 to keep the armor buff, 5 to use on regurgitate and scaling would be consistent.

We gave away op grendel to get some inconsistent ball mobility, copy paste armor strips, with regurgitate often not even stripping armor properly on impact or not applying status procs . And even with 3x ammount of stats you had before rework, dmg does not come to that one do now with armor strip/viral stacks. and even shards... 

Only strong thng about grendel now is nourish subsume which works better on everyone else, since they get all the benefits and overrides grendels nourish if he in squad.

 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 40 minutos, AntifreezeUnder0 dijo:

Only strong thng about grendel now is nourish subsume which works better on everyone else, since they get all the benefits and overrides grendels nourish if he in squad.

How is that the only strong thing about Grendel? Have you even played with it or do you have an unhealthy emotional attachment to the bottomless stomach?

something like some people's attachment to the hydroid puddle.

Edited March 2 by --Leyenda-yight6

[AntifreezeUnder0]

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

How is that the only strong thing about Grendel? Have you even played with it or do you have an unhealthy emotional attachment to the bottomless stomach?

something like some people's attachment to the hydroid puddle.

Because easely comparing current grendel to how it was on twice the stats i see way less output,  and rest of the abilities even ''ultimate'' regurgitate compared to feast spit up is worse... I play only grendel , and see that only nourish is somewhat improved skill, others got nerfed to the ground . And even nourish  would be better with toxin multiplier as it were, so grendel could keep his dmg buffed even further.

Its the lies that telling that on max gut now you still get same scaling as before which is not the case. Comparing 177% strenght grendel on max gut, with 500+% strenght on max gut with armor strip and viral stacks dmg is nowhere near.

Yes you can achieve overkill, but ruining base kit and forcing to copy paste play style with the op helminths as must is not the way. ITs same like get glaive as melee to kill with grendel althought we know its the glaive not the frame, doing the killing.

Its similar how people started outcry when mirage was about to get touch up. Grendel got it twice as bad, but since not many use him it went unnoticed.

 

[Traumtulpe]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Without any setup?  Any specific builds?

I used to play with his ball but I've not played enough with his 4th.

His 4 does 40% health damage as Toxin (and removes armor prior to the damage), thus it kills everything in one cast if the enemies have Viral procs (which they should have 10 of, because you have the un-nerfed version of Nourish). And you only need 134% strength for the full armor strip.

If you really want Grendel to nuke everything, you're free to add +Toxin damage green shards. Then you don't even need the Viral procs. Or Roar. Total overkill though.

[Hypertion]

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Without any setup?  Any specific builds?

I used to play with his ball but I've not played enough with his 4th.

they have it so instead of direct level scaling its based on HP of the enemies in your gut, you still have to spit several times to kill equally leveled Corrupted heavy gunners tho. you also have to specifically target high HP enemies to get the most out of it vs before it just depended on the Level of the target. not impossible but enemies are so often clustered together and die so fast anyways that finding high HP enemies is basically pointless, just Vac up whatever you can.

 

his ball is now redundant armor stripping which deals minimal damage. honestly best ability to subsume over which is a shame because its a fun movement system.

 

before the rework, tho.. ya, if you hit armor stripped enemies with his 3 or 4, it was well over 50-100% of even the toughest enemies HP.. really is a shame they moved away from a true level scaling... simply bouncing around in ball form would damage half a tile for respectable damage. except vs armor as there was no strip back then, which balanced it vs grineer.

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

His 4 does 40% health damage as Toxin (and removes armor prior to the damage), thus it kills everything in one cast if the enemies have Viral procs (which they should have 10 of, because you have the un-nerfed version of Nourish). And you only need 134% strength for the full armor strip.

If you really want Grendel to nuke everything, you're free to add +Toxin damage green shards. Then you don't even need the Viral procs. Or Roar. Total overkill though.

 

10% of health of the vomited enemy. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Grendel#Abilities

he also didnt need hard to obtain shards or viral setup in the old days, just armor strip from another source.

 

Edited March 2 by Hypertion

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, Hypertion said:

10% of health of the vomited enemy

It procs Toxin too for another 30%.

[quxier]

On 2024-03-02 at 5:11 PM, Traumtulpe said:

His 4 does 40% health damage as Toxin (and removes armor prior to the damage), thus it kills everything in one cast if the enemies have Viral procs (which they should have 10 of, because you have the un-nerfed version of Nourish). And you only need 134% strength for the full armor strip.

If you really want Grendel to nuke everything, you're free to add +Toxin damage green shards. Then you don't even need the Viral procs. Or Roar. Total overkill though.

I don't see that "nuking power". And here is catch:

Quote

suffers 1,000 / 1,250 / 1,600 / 2,000 damage plus 10% of the launched enemy's current health as  Toxin damage with 100%  Toxin status chance

At 170% strength, in simulacrum, I can kill 160 or 180 Corrupted heavy gunners with another Chg + viral proc of Nourish. It's still slow. No near "nuking" time. With some fodder enemies it's lower damage. I would assume that with me using Pulverize it would affect damage of 4th as well.

I didn't even used Overguard, which would make damage even lower (e.g. less procs).

So is there something I'm missing? Because I don't see 4th being "nuker" while using Pulverize.

23 hours ago, Hypertion said:

On 2024-03-02 at 1:03 AM, quxier said:

Without any setup?  Any specific builds?

I used to play with his ball but I've not played enough with his 4th.

they have it so instead of direct level scaling its based on HP of the enemies in your gut, you still have to spit several times to kill equally leveled Corrupted heavy gunners tho. you also have to specifically target high HP enemies to get the most out of it vs before it just depended on the Level of the target. not impossible but enemies are so often clustered together and die so fast anyways that finding high HP enemies is basically pointless, just Vac up whatever you can.

 

Yeah, I've seen that 1-2 "spit" would kill CHG.

And it's like you said - enemies are "random". In normal gameplay I've not seen HUGE damage.

23 hours ago, Hypertion said:

his ball is now redundant armor stripping which deals minimal damage. honestly best ability to subsume over which is a shame because its a fun movement system.

At least it's better than Yareli/Merulina. And it "can" kill non-overguard (or immunue) enemies... but slow.

While it being redundant (to 4th) it's still play little different. 4th requires 1st (enemies). With Pulverize you just need touch enemies (roll). Still, I get that "redundancy" argument - Dagath is prime example of that.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I find this whole discussion really strange.

I've taken Grendel to multi-hour survivals on Steel Path and even with level 600+ enemies I find it's harder to keep enemies in Grendel's stomach than anything else. Just rolling around, jumping, bumping and so on, especially after the enemies are armour stripped and primed with Viral, just vibing as Grendel with a full stomach kills the meals-on-wheels in really short order.

While it is a bit odd that they took the actual scaling damage off some of his kit, it really doesn't seem to have changed his actual kills-per-minute, thanks to that armour strip he's got, the easy CC and priming, the heals that keep him tanky, and the option to deal some rather hefty damage if you swallow the right enemies.

A high Strength Grendel seems to be even more difficult to keep his stomach full, especially if you go somewhere like Mot which has shield-based enemies as well as the armoured ones, since they just take direct Health damage from his Toxin without needing to strip. So 10 viral stacks, into the stomach, then they're gone before I even notice and I have to hit 1 again.

I mean...

Sure you can't hit the absurdist overkill damage you used to.

But that's like arguing Everest is taller than K2. Yes, you're factually right, but it doesn't matter, because you're not going to climb either without years of prep.