Eclipse DR is likely too Strong

[CrownOfShadows]

OK, so I'm probably way too late to the part on this one, DE has probably already decided and implemented everything, but as long as I'm ruffling feathers let's talk about Eclipse's DR. Forget about the damage aspect for a minute and just focus on the DR.

90% is too strong, end of story, imo. The only reason eclipse wasn't too strong before was because it was a dice roll (or flat out broken).

YES, some frame - a lot of frames - will really appreciate this, there's no denying that. Slap this on Banshee, Loki... anyone, and their EHP goes through the roof instantly. They become massively survivable - which is not necessarily a bad thing exactly, a lot of frames struggle to keep up in that department and for this reason a lot of people have wanted a reliable helminth DR.

Ok, great. BUT... let's think for a minute about what this will do to the already strong warframes. (Now I know what you're thinking... but.... but won't it just put all these frames on par with the frames that already have DR in their kits, like won't it make Banshee equivalent to Mirage? Well, yes and no, because each frame - I assume - was balanced around their individual kit and not around helminths. Was Banshee ever meant to have 90% DR? No. Why not though? Because her fragility is the balance for her strengths. Suddenly make her not fragile anymore - and she becomes too strong, there's no sacrifice).

The same goes every monster frame. Slap 90% DR on Saryn? On Mesa? on Baruuk? On Gyre? On Protea? On any frame that already has DR??

I fear this will be a MASSIVE power creep for the ENTIRE roster, and I'm worried. There would be no downside. No tradeoff. Just toggle on DR and forget about everything.

So... uh... too late to the party but... how about just 65%-70% DR on subsumed eclipse?

[Circle_of_Psi]

IIRC, I think it's capped at 30%

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Circle_of_Psi said:

IIRC, I think it's capped at 30%

Wasn't that the damage?

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Wasn't that the damage?

My bad, the damage is capped at 30% but the DR from what I understand Eclipse is capped at 75% DR in helminth in accordance with the description of diminished effectiveness. Since a lot of players are complaining about allowing them to "Please change the DR to scale with ability strength. Instead of the 75% DR fixed value"

I have no clue how Maths works in WF, but I think since it's capped I don't think it'll reach 90%, unless you are adding other DRs (such as say Nullstar) onto the mix, then yes I think it might be 90%.

 

I THINK so anyway lol, I'm sorry everyone is confused about this xD

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Circle_of_Psi said:

My bad, the damage is capped at 30% but the DR from what I understand Eclipse is capped at 75% DR in helminth in accordance with the description of diminished effectiveness. Since a lot of players are complaining about allowing them to "Please change the DR to scale with ability strength. Instead of the 75% DR fixed value"

I have no clue how Maths works in WF, but I think since it's capped I don't think it'll reach 90%, unless you are adding other DRs (such as say Nullstar) onto the mix, then yes I think it might be 90%.

 

I THINK so anyway lol, I'm sorry everyone is confused about this xD

Well I certainly HOPE it's 75% DR, ha, let me see if I can find a hard reference...

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well I certainly HOPE it's 75% DR, ha, let me see if I can find a hard reference...

Please do lol, cuz everyone is talking about it and I can't find any xD

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Please do lol, cuz everyone is talking about it and I can't find any xD

I see several comments in the workshop that seem to indicate it starts at 75% and scales with ability strength up to 90%..... but I can't find any actual dev comments that detail that, so I'm not sure.

The current eclipse goes up to 95% on Mirage herself and up to 75% on subsume, so most likely 75% is the retained cap, in which case, disregard this post lol.

[Stormandreas]

The helminth version is capped at 75% when subsumed... That's CURRENT Eclipse and is very likely going to stay

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well I certainly HOPE it's 75% DR, ha, let me see if I can find a hard reference...

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Helminth

Also just go ingame and try it. It's not hard to find this information out

 

Edited March 3 by Stormandreas

[quxier]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

he same goes every monster frame. Slap 90% DR on Saryn? On Mesa? on Baruuk? On Gyre? On Protea? On any frame that already has DR??

The thing is, those frame may not need that 90% DR because they already doing it via killing. So that 90% isn't as good as on weaker frames.

 

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Ok, great. BUT... let's think for a minute about what this will do to the already strong warframes. (Now I know what you're thinking... but.... but won't it just put all these frames on par with the frames that already have DR in their kits, like won't it make Banshee equivalent to Mirage? Well, yes and no, because each frame - I assume - was balanced around their individual kit and not around helminths. Was Banshee ever meant to have 90% DR? No. Why not though? Because her fragility is the balance for her strengths. Suddenly make her not fragile anymore - and she becomes too strong, there's no sacrifice).

 

I could see your point *IF* I had ever seen a Banshee out in the wild....

...but I haven't.

The frame literally does not exist in Steel Path.

I rarely see a Banshee, Mirage, or Gyre or half the roster.

 

If Banshee's strength offset her weakness then we would see her. The damage that she can give the squad should be worth the risk, right?

It isn't. Nobody wants to go down.

 

I think the risk of a few frames that are made not to die, not dying better, is a fine price to pay for seeing higher frame diversity.

 

I will say that Warframe players have a tendency to meta jump.

People will run a Helminth or build that they don't seem to really understand...

...but at this point, I say see what happens with a 90% dmg resist.

 

Let's open up that roster.

 

[CrownOfShadows]

3 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

The helminth version is capped at 75% when subsumed... That's CURRENT Eclipse and is very likely going to stay

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Helminth

Also just go ingame and try it. It's not hard to find this information out

 

... lol... I meant find out if the devs said anything about changing the DR aspect of eclipse, which, as it turns out, IS pretty hard to find out...

[Hexerin]

Tell us you've never played Steel Path without telling us. 90% DR is the baseline for modern DR.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

Tell us you've never played Steel Path without telling us. 90% DR is the baseline for modern DR.

Tell us you're a jerk looking to stab any random citizen without telling us.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 24 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Tell us you're a jerk looking to stab any random citizen without telling us.

He's out of line, but he's right :

il y a 31 minutes, Hexerin a dit :

90% DR is the baseline for modern DR.

Even JUST adaptation is 90%, which you're likely going to use if you are not going the shield gate route (unless you really don't care about survival at all and can manage without it / using rolling guard / some other technique). A more traditional take on good old health tanking is whatever sort of health% mod, adaptation, and some source of armor, with arcane guardian when it's not possible to exploit the frame's base armor, or blue shards for additive armor, which will let you stack up adaptation in peace usually, not to the most reliable results but your average base SP mission doesn't require much more than this usually.

 

Also nobody from DE mentioned anything about the DR part of Eclipse changing at all in the devstreams, don't know if they said anything about it specifically on social networks. Current value of 75% DR is kind of underwhelming, but it definitely contributes for health tanking builds that rely mainly on adaptation, helps lower the danger of building up the stacks firsthand, that's gotta be worth something.

Il y a 2 heures, (XBOX)INe Saninus a dit :

 

I could see your point *IF* I had ever seen a Banshee out in the wild....

...but I haven't.

The frame literally does not exist in Steel Path.

I rarely see a Banshee, Mirage, or Gyre or half the roster.

 

If Banshee's strength offset her weakness then we would see her. The damage that she can give the squad should be worth the risk, right?

It isn't. Nobody wants to go down.

 

I think the risk of a few frames that are made not to die, not dying better, is a fine price to pay for seeing higher frame diversity.

 

I will say that Warframe players have a tendency to meta jump.

People will run a Helminth or build that they don't seem to really understand...

...but at this point, I say see what happens with a 90% dmg resist.

 

Let's open up that roster.

 

The whole roster is absent because this game is filled to the brim with rev abusers. You would see a great deal of diversity should his mesmer skin be nerfed into the ground.

Banshee is a tough one, because I really like the frame, but she's so heavily reliant on helminth, namely Nourish for shieldgating builds or Gloom for "cctanking". She's the single strongest frame for weapon damage boosting, but you never see her in the one content where boosting the damage of weaponry has any sort of value. Paradoxal to say the least.

Still, that doesn't mean 90% boosts any frame to relevancy, Ember is a prime example of it. She has access to that much DR%, but she's rarely ever present in my lobbies, probably because of that constant energy drain that ramps up exponentially if you don't fart fire every five seconds. She even has access to quite high ability damage and armor stripping too. But even that much is not enough to offset her issues.

I hate to point fingers and put the blame on anyone, but when your average warframe content creator spends half his time explaining how rev lets you ignore all sorts of incoming damage every video, it's kind of setting a bad example. I'm not saying we should not have this sort of cheesing, we've pretty much always had it with Rhino and Inaros, but SP doesn't even hit that hard that we should always run this sort of stale gameplan through every mission.

I mean, look, we even got Mesa in this game, who has a 95% DR to bullets (which is 99% of the incoming damage anyway) and can aimbot with the strongest exalted weapon in the game. Did I use to see her every other pub squad when she wasn't vaulted and before SP existed? Yep. Have I seen her since? Barely at all. But why? She doesn't even perform bad, she actually destroys pretty much all of SP with her base kit, so what's the deal here?

My only guess is that weapons are so much more powerful than they used to be that you could rely on just them to do all you need, and take whatever funny metal suit that suits your fashion taste and call it a day, never to cast any spell.

 

Still, 90%DR, even if it were to happen wouldn't shift the meta on its own. It's valuable, but it's not what would shift the meta. It has potential, don't get me wrong, but if nobody even cares to talk about it, you're not going to see it used much because of how there is 0 build diversity, since people just default to the most broken thing directly, and since there's something more broken than 90%DR (complete immunity), Eclipse won't suddenly rise to be the most used ability in the game for that aspect. Damage-wise though, that's a different debate.

[aminisi]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

If Banshee's strength offset her weakness then we would see her. The damage that she can give the squad should be worth the risk, right?

It isn't. Nobody wants to go down.

I'm an avid Banshee player with a usage rate over 70%.

In Kuva Lich battles, spamming BANSHEE's Sonar is known to be incredibly powerful. but it's not widely used in general gameplay simply because its effective tactics are not well-known. For example, equipping Brief Respite and spamming Sonar allows Banshee to stay invulnerable, while a sentinel and its clones with Verglas can easily defeat Steel Path enemies.

In my opinion, fans of each frame have already achieved survivability against even Lv9999 enemies using strategies like shield gating and Vazarin. Therefore, adding a simple damage mitigation method would just make it easier for beginners.

[ominumi]

I say only allow the toggle to Mirage. Keep the inconsistancy with subsume Eclipse. That way people have to decide if the ability is worth using for their frame. Or find ways to take advantage of it.

[L3512]

We have shield gating. DR isn't a big deal and 90% is about standard otherwise it's a waste of time.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

We have shield gating. DR isn't a big deal and 90% is about standard otherwise it's a waste of time.

Shield gating took a bit of a hit with the change, and for everyone building anything else DR is a pretty big deal. 90% might be "standard" but keep in mind that's only for warframes who have DR built directly into their kits already. There is no good helminth DR (up until now with this eclipse change) and I do believe that's been rather intentional for this very reason, so I would honestly be pretty surprised if they let 90% go through.

That's doubtless why the current eclipse is precisely not at 90% but rather at 75%

[L3512]

Yeah no one cares about 75% DR, a waste of time.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, L3512 said:

Yeah no one cares about 75% DR, a waste of time.

Good. That solves the other half of the problem.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 2 heures, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Shield gating took a bit of a hit with the change, and for everyone building anything else DR is a pretty big deal. 90% might be "standard" but keep in mind that's only for warframes who have DR built directly into their kits already. There is no good helminth DR (up until now with this eclipse change) and I do believe that's been rather intentional for this very reason, so I would honestly be pretty surprised if they let 90% go through.

That's doubtless why the current eclipse is precisely not at 90% but rather at 75%

As others have already said, Helminth Eclipse has always been capped at 75%, even though it isn't a reliable ability.

Some other Helminth abilities can give DR, some by increasing armor and other by adding an additional DR layer that will stack multiplicatively.

Defy, can give some DR (armor) but it is capped at 750 armor (about 71% DR), but increasing armor will not add another layer of DR (stacking multiplicatively). The lowest armor amount for a warframe is 105 (about 25% DR). Defy can increase this DR up to 74% (855 armor) and it will apply only to HP.

Parasitic Armor can work nice for frames with high shield value, but the DR increase will work like Defy and will remove shield gating. Not always a good thing.

Elemental Ward can give some armor buff, but a multiplicative armor bonus is useless for warframes with low armor.

Tha same for Warcry, whose buff is even lower than Elemental ward.

Another Helminth ability can add a layer of DR, just like Eclipse. Null Star can give 90%, but, even with very low range, this DR will go lower when you lose particles and only the Neutron Star augment can let this ability keep it's 90%, but it will cost some energy (not a lot, but some). Even though it needs some conditions to be fully reliable, Null Star gives a much better DR than the armor increasing abilities. If we compare Null Star to Defy on a warframe with the lowest armor value (105), the final DR values are : 74% DR with Defy (750+105 armor) and 92.5% with Null Star (90% DR from the Ability astacking multiplicatively with 25.9% from armor). Helminth Null Star has no specific cap at all and with some Archon Shard sand a full duration build it's possible to keep its DR at the max or almost at the max all the time. 90% is the DR cap, but not the particles cap).

Helminth Eclipse DR was always lower and less reliable than Null Star, but it doesn't require a specific build (minimal range and max duration). 75% DR from Eclipse paired with the lowest armor value (105), can give a current max DR of about 81.5% (25.9% from armor and 75% from the ability). For Mirage herself, the max current DR was 96.3%.But, as said, it isn't reliable at all.

The great advantage of Eclipse is that it applies also to Shields, while Null Star protects only the HP. As shields native DR have been increased, Helminth Eclipse (75% DR) gives a very nice advantage by increasing Shields DR to 87.5%.

But there are other means (and much more reliable)to get a lot of DR with Helminth abilities, but it will require some Mods or Arcanes : Arcane Ultimatum (+1200 armor) and Health Conversion (up to + 1350 armor) can increase the DR of the most fragile frames (those with 105 armor) up to 81.3% and 82.9% respectively. Silence, Radial Blind, Rest/Rage, Lull, Desiccation, Muzzle Flash (augment), Blinding Reave (augment), Dispensary are some Helminth abilities that can make you benefit from Ultimatum and/or Helath Conversion buffs.

Arcane Double Back could work well with squishy warframes, but it stacks so bad and has a very low duration : to be honest, I think it's an useless Arcane.

So, I agree that a Helminth ability that can give up to 90% DR is a bit too high, but a 75% DR (the current cap) is not too much in my opinion, even with the changes and Eclipse becoming much more reliable than before. The reason is that currently the squishiest warframes (105 armor) can get, by using Helminth abilities on a build, an amount of DR from 71% to 82.9%, without sacrificing any stat, and 92.5 DR with Null Star.

Will the future changes increase the stats of Helminth Eclipse ? Eclipse is already the third most popular Helmting ability, even if it's unreliable, but most of the time, it's the damage buff that players are looking for (the Helminth top 2 ar edamage buff abilities). Nourish will be nerfed a bit, so players will perhaps prefer using Roar (2nd most popular Helminth ability) or Eclipse, but it's hard to say, as we still don't know how Nourish is going to be nerfed.

 

Edited March 4 by AegidiusF

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, AegidiusF said:

As others have already said, Helminth Eclipse has always been capped at 75%, even though it isn't a reliable ability.

Abilities increasing armor :

Some other Helminth abilities can give DR? some by increasing armor and other by adding an additional DR layer that will stack multiplicatively.

Defy, can give some DR (armor) but it is capped at 750 armor (about 71% DR), but increasing armor will not add another layer of DR (stacking multiplicatively). The lowest armor amount for a warframe is 105 (about 25% DR). Defy can increase this DR up to 74% (855 armor) and it will apply only to HP.

Parasitic Armor can work nice for frames with high shield value, but the DR increase will work like Defy and will remove shield gating. Not always a good thing.

Elemental Ward can give some armor buff, but a multiplicative armor bonus is useless for warframes with low armor.

Tha same for Warcry, whose buff is even lower than Elemental ward.

Another Helminth ability can add a layer of DR, just like Eclipse. Null Star can give 90%, but, even with very low range, this DR will go lower when you lose particles and only the Neutron Star augment can let this ability keep it's 90%, but it will cost some energy (not a lot, but some). Even though it needs some conditions to be fully reliable, Null Star gives a much better DR than the armor increasing abilities. If we compare Null Star to Defy on a warframe with the lowest armor value (105), the final DR values are : 74% DR with Defy (750+105 armor) and 92.5% with Null Star (90% DR from the Ability astacking multiplicatively with 25.9% from armor). Helminth Null Star has no specific cap at all and with some Archon Shard sand a full duration build it's possible to keep its DR at the max or almost at the max all the time. 90% is the DR cap, but not the particles cap).

Helminth Eclipse DR was always lower and less reliable than Null Star, but it doesn't require a specific build (minimal range and max duration). 75% DR from Eclipse paired with the lowest armor value (105), can give a current max DR of about 81.5% (25.9% from armor and 75% from the ability). For Mirage herself, the max current DR was 96.3%.But, as said, it isn't reliable at all.

But there are other means (and much more reliable)to get a lot of DR with Helminth abilities, but it will require some Mods or Arcanes : Arcane Ultimatum (+1200 armor) and Health Conversion (up to + 1350 armor) can increase the DR of the most fragile frames (those with 105 armor) up to 81.3% and 82.9% respectively. Silence, Radial Blind, Rest/Rage, Lull, Desiccation, Muzzle Flash (augment), Blinding Reave (augment), Dispensary are some Helminth abilities that can make you benefit from Ultimatum and/or Helath Conversion buffs.

So, I agree that a Helminth ability that can give up to 90% DR is a bit too high, but a 75% DR (the current cap) is not too much in my opinion, even with the changes and Eclipse becoming much more reliable than before. The reason is that currently the squishiest warframes (105 armor) can get, by using Helminth abilities on a build, an amount of DR from 71% to 82.9%, without sacrificing any stat, and 92.5 DR with Null Star.

Will the future changes increase the stats of Helminth Eclipse ? Eclipse is already the third most popular Helmting ability, even if it's unreliable, but most of the time, it's the damage buff that players are looking for (the Helminth top 2 ar edamage buff abilities). Nourish will be nerfed a bit, so players will perhaps prefer using Roar (2nd most popular Helminth ability) or Eclipse, but it's hard to say, as we still don't know how Nourish is going to be nerfed.

 

Well, armor is fundamentally different than pure DR. DR stacks on top of armor and acts as a multiplier. In the helminth, there is only eclipse and null star in this category.

They pretty much give armor out for free, there are so many options for it now, and it's definitely better than the average player gives it give it credit for - but still it's not as good as 'pure' DR. (yes technically armor is damage reduction, but the two work very differently)

As for null star, it's good on paper, but as you detailed it has a lot of problems - it only kicks in on health, enemies take away your particles, and you have to have a duration build. Anyone who's tried slapping that on Inaros can testify that it feels like wet tissue paper.

So eclipse is pretty much the only 'pure' DR option in the helminth, and now with it being constant and reliable it should be a solid survivability option even at 75%, but only experimenting will tell.

[PollexMessier]

In practice most of the frames that are built like glass cannons just don't scale at all, and become just glass in more difficult content. While there's a few frames that deal absurd amounts of scaling damage AND come with damage reduction.

I'd agree with you, if warframe actually had the balance between frames that you assume it does. But it doesn't. There are frames that deal massive amounts of scailing damage, and have good DR, and some other utility like stealth or CC on top of that if not both. And there are frames that don't do any of those things.

I don't think Eclipse's DR should be nerfed for helminth at all. It would only really be an equalizer. If DE doesn't want you to stack damage reduction abilities, they have the capability of not allowing you to. They already do this with other abilities. Just giving glass cannons good DR isn't going to break balance when frames like Baruk, Styanax, and Octavia exist.

Glass cannons simply don't cannon hard enough to make up for their fragility at higher levels. And even with 95% DR this would still be the case because enemies will eventually out-scale that and still one-shot you. Especially with these frame's typically abysmally low base defensive stats.

The 75% cap is DE preemptively ruining an option before they give it to us because they THINK it would be broken otherwise, when in reality the game would be better balanced if they didn't. So is the 30% cap on the damage side which has been talked to death already.

I don't see this ability getting used much as a subsume at all with the numbers they gave us.

Edited March 4 by PollexMessier

[CrownOfShadows]

20 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

In practice most of the frames that are built like glass cannons just don't scale at all, and become just glass in more difficult content. While there's a few frames that deal absurd amounts of scaling damage AND come with damage reduction.

I'd agree with you, if warframe actually had the balance between frames that you assume it does. But it doesn't. There are frames that deal massive amounts of scailing damage, and have good DR, and some other utility like stealth or CC on top of that if not both. And there are frames that don't do any of those things.

I don't think Eclipse's DR should be nerfed for helminth at all. It would only really be an equalizer. If DE doesn't want you to stack damage reduction abilities, they have the capability of not allowing you to. They already do this with other abilities. Just giving glass cannons good DR isn't going to break balance when frames like Baruk, Styanax, and Octavia exist. And glass cannons simply don't cannon hard enough to make up for their fragility at higher levels.

The 75% cap is DE preemptively ruining an option before they give it to us because they THINK it would be broken otherwise, when in reality the game would be better balanced if they didn't. So is the 30% cap on the damage side which has been talked to death already.

I don't see this ability getting used much as a subsume at all with the numbers they gave us.

Well I'm just coming from the opposite direction, from the top down, worst case scenarios not best case scenarios. Like giving super fragile frames good DR is probably a win across the board, you're right about glass cannons for the most part. But giving it to already powerful frames that don't have DR is the part that worried me. Like it would equalize the bottom tier upward (and basically not move most of the upper tier because so many of them already have native DR), but it might also make some frames near the top just a little too good.

Like, off the top of my head, putting 90% DR on Hildryn, Wisp, Khora or everyone's favorite problem-child Saryn feels dangerous. 75% is probably enough of a hit that it won't break things though, it takes the top off enough of the curve. I mean Hildryn already barely takes damage as it is, and I'd just rather not make problems like that worse if we don't have to.

Unfortunately, the future of WF is probably a (very boring) world where nobody ever dies anymore, at which point things like this will be moot.

Edited March 4 by CrownOfShadows

[AegidiusF]

il y a 14 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Well, armor is fundamentally different than pure DR. DR stacks on top of armor and acts as a multiplier. In the helminth, there is only eclipse and null star in this category.

They pretty much give armor out for free, there are so many options for it now, and it's definitely better than the average player gives it give it credit for - but still it's not as good as 'pure' DR. (yes technically armor is damage reduction, but the two work very differently)

As for null star, it's good on paper, but as you detailed it has a lot of problems - it only kicks in on health, enemies take away your particles, and you have to have a duration build. Anyone who's tried slapping that on Inaros can testify that it feels like wet tissue paper.

So eclipse is pretty much the only 'pure' DR option in the helminth, and now with it being constant and reliable it should be a solid survivability option even at 75%, but only experimenting will tell.

Yes, I agree with most of what you said (sorry, I was still writing my previous post when I posted it by mistake - I added some other little points).

An additionnal layer of DR (ability or Mod) stacking multiplicatively is different from increasing a layer of DR (armor), but no matter how they stack, at the end it's to toal DR that counts.

The part I don't really agree is the 75% DR is too high, because, as said before, it gives about 81% total DR to the squishiest frame. For the frames with high DR, it's useless, because it stacks multiplicatively and will represent a little DR increase. It would only let some squishier frames tank a little better, but this will not make them tankier than tanky frames (by tanky frames, I'm not only talking about frames that have high armor value, like Chroma and Valkyr,, but also about frames that have DR abilities, like Trinity and Baruuk).