Ember has been power crept entirely by Dagath

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-04-03 at 6:16 PM, RichardKam said:

Btw, Ember is fine

I disagree

My favorite Warframe is the Randomizer button. And every time it lands on Ember I have to force myself to be optimistic. "Ok, let's TRY to make this work." And even then that doesn't last long

Ember just isn't bringing enough to the table. She can armor strip... Sorta. She can get damage reduction... Sorta. And she can deal fire DPS... Not very well. I find myself spamming buttons, and the enemy is more inconvenienced than anything else

On 2024-04-03 at 6:16 PM, RichardKam said:

You are not even comparing apple and orange. You are comparing apple and beef wellington.

Disagree here too, I very much think the comparison to Dagath is warranted. I can't think of anything Ember does that Dagath doesn't, except for the extremely niche "deal damage to Fire Prosecutors." I'm going to add Ash in there too, because all three of them are squishy damage-based caster frames with a slightly risky survivability power (Ash is invisible but not invincible; Ember gets damage reduction that costs energy if used wrong; Dagath becomes invincible with a long cool down). Especially their ults: I think Ash's no jutsu attack, Ember's meteor swarm, and Dagath's cavalry charge are all fundamentally very similar. The difference is, Ember's is terrible

Bottom line, every choice has an "opportunity cost" to use a term from economics. This basically means even if Ember has no downsides innate to her kit (which she does) she still carries the automatic downside of "not being Dagath." And right now that is a pretty big downside.

Edited April 5 by TARINunit9

[Waeleto]

Ah yes, let's get dagath nerfed as well while we're at it

[EternaldrkMako]

wont complain with free buff, but im not having problems using her and im also using dagath 

ember just needs the Heatup gauge bs restrictions removed, just give her max cap and toss the gauge away its not helpful really . beyond that she is usable and powerful . 

dagaths imo is she has low armor and a very aggressive kit that also slows and her 4 is a hall nuke , ember has higher defensive capability with her 2 and can self buff damage / aoe armor strip of her powers by just casting them or proc heat by other means, her 4 can also cover a BIG area and with aug also give squad energy 

technically they cover each other in a squad well

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , TARINunit9 说:

I disagree

My favorite Warframe is the Randomizer button. And every time it lands on Ember I have to force myself to be optimistic. "Ok, let's TRY to make this work." And even then that doesn't last long

Randomizer is not a good benchmark isn't it? You are deliberately restricting yourself and then claim certain frame is not good. Without a good arsenal even Revenant can do nothing for you other than staying alive.

My Ember can routinely do SP Lua survival solo for 30+ mins. Is it a good benchmark? Maybe yes, maybe not. But if Ember can do that, Ember can do most of the game contents and that is more than sufficient already. If we are pushing into SP level cap or 200 kill per minutes or < 6 mins netracell / archon hunt territories it would be another story.

2小时前 , TARINunit9 说:

Disagree here too, I very much think the comparison to Dagath is warranted. I can't think of anything Ember does that Dagath doesn't, except for the extremely niche "deal damage to Fire Prosecutors." I'm going to add Ash in there too, because all three of them are squishy damage-based caster frames with a slightly risky survivability power (Ash is invisible but not invincible; Ember gets damage reduction that costs energy if used wrong; Dagath becomes invincible with a long cool down). Especially their ults: I think Ash's no jutsu attack, Ember's meteor swarm, and Dagath's cavalry charge are all fundamentally very similar. The difference is, Ember's is terrible

Ember has 90% DR, can armor strip (even without immolation), and can nuke. Her augment can heal, generate energy orb, and boost weapon damage.

Dagath has no DR or survival skill (her 3 technically is not a survival skill. It is a second chance like Unairu last gasp), can armor strip with some pre-requisite, and can nuke.....in a restricted straight line? Unless her augment brings her close to Ember, otherwise their difference is like night and day.

Also Dagath cavalry charge is a really outlier in terms of damage when compared with any frame in existence. So yeah, the comparison is disingenuous.

And you are bringing in Ash as well? Seriously? Shall we start comparing Ember with Voruna as well because, you know, Voruna has survival, can nuke, and is more or less a caster because you will keep casting her 2-1-4? And Dagath must be a worse Kullervo as well, when Kullervo can also nuke, does not rely on armor strip when using his 1, has even better armor and damage reduction with overguard, and he is definitely a caster frame when his 4 with augment supplement so well with his 1 you will be casting his 4-3-1 endlessly without using primary and secondary weapons.

2小时前 , TARINunit9 说:

Bottom line, every choice has an "opportunity cost" to use a term from economics. This basically means even if Ember has no downsides innate to her kit (which she does) she still carries the automatic downside of "not being Dagath." And right now that is a pretty big downside.

If we are talking about "opportunity cost" then it is just a discussion on personal preference. For me Dagath is terrible because I hate shield gating. Gyre as well. And yet people found them fun to play. Same goes for Yareli. Some called her terrible because merulina is restrictive and is a big downside. For me it is not.

Taking away LoS check on Ember is good. Other than that, Ember is fine as is.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Ember has 90% DR

In the worst way possible. A Monkey's Paw version of DR, barely a survival skill at all

Which is specifically why...

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Dagath has no DR or survival skill (her 3 technically is not a survival skill. It is a second chance like Unairu last gasp)

...I compare Ember's with Dagath's. Dagath's is unorthodox, it gives you invincibility when you need it most, followed by a period you can't use it. Ember's is also unorthodox, because it's absolutely godawful it also requires the player to manage a meter and stay out of the thickest fighting when the meter is in a bad spot lest they lose it entirely for a lengthy period

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

and can nuke.....in a restricted straight line?

Considering the most recent tileset we got is made up of nothing BUT unrestricted straight lines, that's not really a downside. I mean even you admit that Ember's LoS checks force her to take second place in this two-woman race

Now let me get to the real meat of things, the underlying philosophy:

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Voruna has survival, can nuke, and is more or less a caster because you will keep casting her 2-1-4? And Dagath must be a worse Kullervo as well, when Kullervo can also nuke, does not rely on armor strip when using his 1, has even better armor and damage reduction with overguard, and he is definitely a caster frame when his 4 with augment supplement so well with his 1 you will be casting his 4-3-1 endlessly without using primary and secondary weapons.

I'm using the old terms here. Trinity is a healer, Oberon is a healer/CC hybrid, Frost is a defense tank, Baruuk is a dodge tank, Ash is a ganker, Saryn is DPS. And under these old terms, Ember and Dagath are both casters. THAT'S why OP and I consider them to be comparable

True, Warframe's heavily moddable gun systems allow every player to become a de facto DPS class. But I don't agree that lets us throw out the old terms out of hand. I think that fundamentally, Ember is going to lead her player into a very different playstyle than Frost would -- but a very similar playstyle to how Dagath would.

You might disagree with me on the fundamentals, in which case you and I have nothing more to say to each other. But you might also agree with me on the fundamentals but have a different range for what counts as "very similar," and that I can understand

[RichardKam]

36分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

In the worst way possible. A Monkey's Paw version of DR, barely a survival skill at all

That's why we need a scope or context on where we are discussing. SP survival? Level cap? Netracell / Archon hunt? 90% DR with one or two auxiliary setup is more than sufficient for most context.

Beside that, I don't have any further comment, except,

29分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

Considering the most recent tileset we got is made up of nothing BUT unrestricted straight lines, that's not really a downside. I mean even you admit that Ember's LoS checks force her to take second place in this two-woman race

hmm.....I won't consider the laboratory or zariman "made up of nothing but straight lines" because they weren't. Both tilesets have vast open area and in the laboratory you can find an entire desert, so to speak. In netracell the red circle is always an open area with verticality as well.

In fact the laboratory tileset was more "open" than others because it was designed to accommodate necramech.

[TARINunit9]

52 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

That's why we need a scope or context on where we are discussing

I'm discussing "not being actively painful to try and use" rather than "effective."

Let me use an example from another game: Monster Hunter World. Long Swords in that game are well-balanced and effective weapons, and according to my research were voted top-tier in the Japanese forums. They are also BY FAR my least favorite weapons to use. You have to juggle three meters (blade sharpness, spirit meter, and spirit rank-up meter), and trying to raise any of the three bars requires depleting at least one of the other two (attacking to raise your spirit meter costs blade sharpness, sharpening your blade degrades your spirit rank-up progress, and using spirit attacks to rank up your spirit meter costs your spirit meter and blade sharpness). Fail to manage all three meters and you might get caught out without being able to use your best attacks, which means letting up the pressure so you can build back up again. Your reward for successfully managing all this is a lvl3 spirit gauge granting good damage buffs and unique attacks. I don't have fun getting to that point, but I can recognize the reward and admire people who don't have a little voice constantly nagging "meter's going down, meter's going down" hammering the back of their skull

Ember is all of that hassle with none of the payoff. You're managing three meters (energy, overheat gauge, and overheat growth speed) and trying to change any of them spends the other two. And what's your reward for managing all of that in the middle of combat? Are you getting some of the best buffs, debuffs, or damage in the game? Not really. Her maximum damage output is fine when it lands, but other frames are outpacing her; her absolute maximum damage reduction is the same as the Adaptation mod which is always active for free, and her armor stripping debuff is considered the bare minimum of viability. 

Even if Dagath were merely "as good as" Ember, she would still win out by virtue of needing less effort to get there

That's the context I'm working from

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

hmm.....I won't consider the laboratory or zariman "made up of nothing but straight lines"

I wish I had a picture of this to make my point, all the image searches for "albrecht laboratory warframe" are of cutscenes and secret cache rooms. But my mental image of the place is "hallways and catwalks" and my mental image of Murmur enemies is "lined up like bowling pins." Even the Fragmented One's spawn tiles are canyons

[RichardKam]

2分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

I'm discussing "not being actively painful to try and use" rather than "effective."

Let me use an example from another game: Monster Hunter World. Long Swords in that game are well-balanced and effective weapons, and according to my research were voted top-tier in the Japanese forums. They are also BY FAR my least favorite weapons to use. You have to juggle three meters (blade sharpness, spirit meter, and spirit rank-up meter), and trying to raise any of the three bars requires depleting at least one of the other two (attacking to raise your spirit meter costs blade sharpness, sharpening your blade degrades your spirit rank-up progress, and using spirit attacks to rank up your spirit meter costs your spirit meter and blade sharpness). Fail to manage all three meters and you might get caught out without being able to use your best attacks, which means letting up the pressure so you can build back up again. Your reward for successfully managing all this is a lvl3 spirit gauge granting good damage buffs and unique attacks. I don't have fun getting to that point, but I can recognize the reward and admire people who don't have a little voice constantly nagging "meter's going down, meter's going down" hammering the back of their skull

Ember is all of that hassle with none of the payoff. You're managing three meters (energy, overheat gauge, and overheat growth speed) and trying to change any of them spends the other two. And what's your reward for managing all of that in the middle of combat? Are you getting some of the best buffs, debuffs, or damage in the game? Not really. Her maximum damage output is fine when it lands, but other frames are outpacing her; her absolute maximum damage reduction is the same as the Adaptation mod which is always active for free, and her armor stripping debuff is considered the bare minimum of viability. 

Even if Dagath were merely "as good as" Ember, she would still win out by virtue of needing less effort to get there

That's the context I'm working from

Again. Personal preference. The reward is having high DR and armor strip, with fire blast also boosting her ability strength.

It is effective, it is just not as effective as other. That is the point. Otherwise why we are having 50+ frames in this game when you can subsume terrify on Rev and call it a day?

Btw I also like driving manual over auto, and mechanical watch over smart watch.

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

It is effective, it is just not as effective as other

Which is why it confuses me when you claim

12 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

The reward is having high DR and armor strip

High DR? Define high, because it's lower than Adaptation's 90% DR which doesn't run out of energy, and in my tests it's lower than Dagath's 100% DR. Armor strip? True, but Dagath gets the same armor strip for less effort

From my perspective "more hassle" should equal "more effective." Driving a stick is more hassle than an automatic, but you get more benefit, not just the same benefit (or in Ember's case, even less benefit).

20 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Otherwise why we are having 50+ frames in this game when you can subsume terrify on Rev and call it a day?

It's not that I disagree with the sentiment, I disagree on what's causing the problems. I believe that Dagath is accomplishing the same niches and playstyles as Ember, but with less effort for a greater payout. There's a couple different ways to solve that -- buff Ember for a better investment:reward ratio, diversify Ember and Dagath so they aren't accomplishing the same goal -- but that requires we're starting from the same foundational axioms about the problem, and it's pretty obvious we are not

[RichardKam]

8分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

Which is why it confuses me when you claim

High DR? Define high, because it's lower than Adaptation's 90% DR which doesn't run out of energy, and in my tests it's lower than Dagath's 100% DR. Armor strip? True, but Dagath gets the same armor strip for less effort

Tenno......adaptation does not give you flat 90% DR. It gives 90% resistance to the highest weighting damage type only. If an enemy keep shooting you with slash/impact/puncture with equal weighting, adaptation only gives you < 30% DR. If you think adaptation gives you flat 90% DR, you will be in trouble.

Also, where does Dagath 100% DR comes from? Getting killed and then reviving followed by 25 seconds cool down is not "damage reduction". Do you consider Protea temporal anchor a sort of DR as well? Don't mix up the two different concepts. There is no damage reduction in Dagath's kit. If you want to make comparison about DR, perhaps Nekros shield of shadow, or nova null star would be more relevant.

[TARINunit9]

56 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Tenno......adaptation does not give you flat 90% DR. It gives 90% resistance to the highest weighting damage type only. If an enemy keep shooting you with slash/impact/puncture with equal weighting, adaptation only gives you < 30% DR. If you think adaptation gives you flat 90% DR, you will be in trouble.

And if enemies actually used attacks with multiple damage types, this would be relevant.

So I'm just going to say it: Adaptation is flat-out better than Ember's damage resistance. It's less costly, it's more reliable, and it's pretty much always going to block more damage.

58 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Also, where does Dagath 100% DR comes from?

Me just being cheeky with how I refer to invuln. 

59 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Getting killed

Activating Dagath's invuln period doesn't count as death. Doesn't trigger penalties from Archon Hunts or Arbitrations

So I'm just going to say it: Dagath's invuln period is flat-out better than Ember's damage resistance. It's more powerful, it's more useful, it's less risky, and it's easier to abuse. 

[RichardKam]

48分钟前 , TARINunit9 说:

And if enemies actually used attacks with multiple damage types, this would be relevant.

So I'm just going to say it: Adaptation is flat-out better than Ember's damage resistance. It's less costly, it's more reliable, and it's pretty much always going to block more damage.

??? I just showed you the maths and you still arrive at that conclusion. Do you know how damage works in this game?

引用

https://youtu.be/Jw015DtY9gM?si=pLtb8oVyOHc8J3W6

 

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

??? I just showed you the maths and you still arrive at that conclusion.

Your conclusion relies on enemies actually dealing multiple damage types. On some enemy out there dealing IPS+Radiation+Toxic, a good five damage types that could overwhelm Adaptation and force us to take full damage from four of the five

But I don't know of any enemies that do that, not in a way that Adaptation can't deal with. Some of the older Grineer use a little IPS mixing (mostly Impact with tiny bits of puncture slash) maybe. But the vast majority of enemies don't. Flamethrowers with pure Heat, Detrons of pure Radiation, Sentients with pure Tau. Making it too easy on Adaptation

[(PSN)robotwars7]

personally, I just want ember to be a bit more versatile. biggest problem with pyromancers as a whole is that they're one-trick ponies; all they can do is set stuff on fire; that's not good enough in a game like warframe, with so many different damage types and abilities on offer.. if it were me, I'd take a leaf from Outriders, who did a decent job of making their pyromancer class feel like more than just an elemental DPS, and give Ember 3 types of status to inflict:

Burn: same as heat proc currently, but more effective in terms of tick damage.

Explode: a status that deals a large instance of damage along with armor stip.

Ashen: enemies are petrified and become more vulnerable to all damage types (Hard CC/debuff).

wouldn;'t mind seeing her get a defensive ability, like a fire shield that scorches melee enemeis and destroys any solid projectiles (elements would still go through). basically, let her be more than just "hur dur I cast fire"..

[Dubsurf123]

Le 04/04/2024 à 23:54, RichardKam a dit :

Ember has 90% DR, can armor strip (even without immolation), and can nuke. Her augment can heal, generate energy orb, and boost weapon damage.

Dagath has no DR or survival skill (her 3 technically is not a survival skill. It is a second chance like Unairu last gasp), can armor strip with some pre-requisite, and can nuke.....in a restricted straight line? Unless her augment brings her close to Ember, otherwise their difference is like night and day.

 

Ember cannot nuke as efficiently as other frames at high levels and a single eximus unit can prevent nukes entirely. Seeing where the game is headed in terms of endgame (Archimedia) this becomes a moot point as her DOT is severely lacking. Try to force it and she either is starved of energy constantly, or a sitting duck as you have to spam immolation to prevent constant overheat. This also means her DR is constantly fluctuating, leading to horrific inconsistencies in tankiness.

Also, saying Dagath's nuke is limited is downright incorrect and disingenuous.

You're wrong on both accounts. Dagath can survive on augur mods and molt reconstruct alone at max efficiency. Catalyzing shields is not required but will make her even tankier.

Dagath can nuke simply by spreading doom. It may not be a "Traditional" nuke in a sense, but when you're essentially double-dipping damage to anybody affected, it's EXCEEDINGLY easy to make impromptu nukes faster than Ember can spread or kill...anything.

Edited April 10 by Dubsurf123

[Dubsurf123]

Le 04/04/2024 à 21:12, Waeleto a dit :

Ah yes, let's get dagath nerfed as well while we're at it

I don't actually mind.

I'm Dagath main and I actually think she does too much in terms of multiplicative damage. I'd much rather her abilities interact with her team more so that she isn't just this solo DPS dealer.

I think she can go with a more interesting kit, though I am hoping she'll get an augment that allows her to ride a kaithe in standard missions.

 

Edited April 10 by Dubsurf123

[Prof-Dante]

DAGATH MENTIONED, WTF IS A MEMORABLE WARFRAME 🗣️🗣️💨💨

[Waeleto]

33 minutes ago, Dubsurf123 said:

I don't actually mind.

I'm Dagath main and I actually think she does too much in terms of multiplicative damage. I'd much rather her abilities interact with her team more so that she isn't just this solo DPS dealer.

I think she can go with a more interesting kit, though I am hoping she'll get an augment that allows her to ride a kaithe in standard missions.

 

This BETTER be satire ESPECIALLY the last part like i'm not even joking if this isn't satire then i've lost all hope for these forums 💀

[Imperth]

As an Ember Main, anyone who claims that Ember is fine and don't require either  some  very important qol tweaks that makes her kit more up to date is dreaming in daylight and possibly never played Ember in high endgame(or even base SP).

To be even considered viable, she requires:
Helminth
Arcane Energize
Molt augmented(this one is easy to get and also cheap)
Atleast 2 tauforged amber shards for casting speed(she can't move while casting her main ability Inferno, so casting speed is really important for her)
Atleast 1 tauforged (i use 2 on her since i can afford it) amber shard for energy orb effectiveness.
Her currently bis helminth ability is roar which requires Primed Continuity to have an acceptable duration.
Primed Flow is also necessary to have a big energy storage due to above factors and her being a caster who needs to spams abilities non stop.

EVEN WITH ALL OF THESE INVESTMENTS:
You can't keep up immolation and have to mostly turn it off and recast it multiple times.
Her Armor stripping ability (Fire Blast) only armor strips 100% with 90% immolation Bar
Fire blast's terrible LoS, if there are 2 enemies in line, only the one in front of it will be armor stripped and that's in a good day.
Fire blast can't armor strip Acolytes(????)
Her most important ability which is Inferno is not a scaling ability, with all the above investments and archon vitality + her passive + max molt augmented + roar, that skill deals terrible damage.

Since some peeps think that Dagath to Ember comparison is like orange to beef comparison, let me give you a more similar one.

Gauss(Literally the better ember, very similar kit, has a bar that is not negative and punishing but additive and rewarding) can armor strip and nuke.
My 0 archon shard, 0 helminth, 0 forma Gauss can outdps and outperform my overly geared Ember without an effort and stay alive much easier.
My Gyre(new Ember world on fire) with only pillage and molt augmented can clear rooms so fast that you can't even compare it to any other frame.

Let people compare frames and ask for changes, i love warframe but there is not another game that it has this much unfairness and incostistency when it comes to balance(even LoL is better at this department despite having bad reputation on balance).

For anyone who is going to say "buT oLd wArFrame rEwOrkS dOnT bRinG tHeM rEvEnuE" they are totally wrong.
Release a Delux skin with every warframe that receives either rework or important tweaks and see how much those skins are going to sell but oh yeah, that requires real effort and it's much easier to release overly op prime warframe and make sh*tton of money from prime access then just nerf it after the prime access is gone.

Edited April 10 by Imperth

[Imperth]

On 2024-04-05 at 6:54 AM, RichardKam said:

Ember has 90% DR, can armor strip (even without immolation), and can nuke. Her augment can heal, generate energy orb, and boost weapon damage.

Dagath has no DR or survival skill (her 3 technically is not a survival skill. It is a second chance like Unairu last gasp), can armor strip with some pre-requisite, and can nuke.....in a restricted straight line? Unless her augment brings her close to Ember, otherwise their difference is like night and day.

I'm sorry for speculating but i doubt that you are playing Ember in SP or even if you did i assume you played that EHP tank build that is utter sh*t and slow; in high levels(slow even in low levels), someone who knows a little bit of Ember wouldn't waste a mod slot for fireblast healing  augment mod when there is magus elevate/repair or straight better mods that synergise for tanking/damaging.

So you are going to waste 2 mod slots just to "heal" and "generate energy orb"(Exothermic for energy orb generation is good but not required when you have primed flow +archon shards for energy orb effectiveness) but you also claim that people use Blind Rage  in Ember and claim in your older reply that we should build for efficiency.
Why would you even use Blind rage when there is Transient Fortitude which synergises really well with already must equip Continuity/Primed Continuity which also dosn't  bring any Efficiency negatives? Just to make your point right you create non realistic variables that is useless.

(Primed)Continuity 1
(Primed) Flow         2
Archon Vitality       3
Streamline              4
Adaptation/Catalyzing Shields 5
Stretch 6
You left with 2 slots, and you are going to put Fireblast Augment in this kit just to heal some hp?
Depending on your Helminth you either going to use Exothermic + Transient or the Fireball augment for heat inherit weapon station Ember.




I would really love to see your Ember usage % and build :)
 

Edited April 10 by Imperth

[RichardKam]

24分钟前 , Imperth 说:

As an Ember Main, anyone who claims that Ember is fine and don't require either  some  very important qol tweaks that makes her kit more up to date is dreaming in daylight and possibly never played Ember in high endgame.

To be even considered viable, she requires:
Helminth
Arcane Energize
Molt augmented(this one is easy to get and also cheap)
Atleast 2 tauforged amber shards for casting speed(she can't move while casting her main ability Inferno, so casting speed is really important for her)
Atleast 1 tauforged (i use 2 on her since i can afford it) amber shard for energy orb effectiveness.
Her currently bis helminth ability is roar which requires Primed Continuity to have an acceptable duration.
Primed Flow is also necessary to have a big energy storage due to above factors and her being a caster who needs to spams abilities non stop.

1. If your high endgame is SP stuff beyond level 2000 then it is expected because not every frame can excel there. That is a no man's land where balance and logic do not exist and health essentially becomes binary.

2. If you need all these stuff to consider Ember viable you are playing her wrong. Seriously, not being sarcastic. In your "high endgame", maybe, but for anything else, you only need Nourish because it has an unholy 1.6x universal energy multiplier that scale with strength (read: Ember passive). Again, people keep complaining about immolation energy drain without noticing the simple fact that it only drains energy when you stay at 90% for a long time. Just manipulate the heat gauge at around 80 - 85%, or manipulate the rate of heat gain such that your downtime between fire blast is minimal. It is easy. At least that's how I do SP Lua survival without arcane energize and any amber shards and stuff you mentioned.

3. You have arsenal in this game. Use them to kill stuff. There is no need to restrict yourself to inferno. In one of my build I subsume Voruna 3 over inferno, and with fireball augment and melee exposure and her passive I can turn Ember into a CO melee machine with endless supply of health orb => equilibrium => energy to sustain my immolation.

Maybe some LoS update (which DE is working on, anyway). Maybe some tweaking on energy drain. Other than that, Ember is fine in most of the contents (most, not all, not level cap), and is fun to play.

5分钟前 , Imperth 说:

I'm sorry for speculating but i doubt that you are playing Ember in SP or even if you did i assume you played that EHP tank build that is utter S#&amp;&#036; in high levels, someone who knows a little bit of Ember woouldn't waste a mod slot for fireblast healing when there is magus elevate/repair or straight better mods that synergise for tanking/damaging.

No need to be sorry, although you need to be specific about the scope of the discussion. Again, if your high level is SP stuff beyond level 2000 then it is expected because not every frame can excel there, and it is irrelevant to like 99% of the rest of the game, not even DA or EDA. I can casually do SP Lua survival with Ember with a much less demanding setup than you guys mentioned, so I am not sure what is missing here.

My overall impression is this. If we want to tweak every frame to be sustainable and viable up to beyond SP level 2000 (or beyond like 2 hour+ SP survival, something like that) in which players and enemies can one-shot each other regardless of armor and health unless shield gating, it is no longer the problem of Ember and most of the frames will have problems with that benchmark - not even Gyre without armor strip. And this benchmark is not realistic. I prefer discussion grounded in more realistic scenarios where most players will find themselves in - archon hunt, netracell, baseline SP, things like that.

Also, surely fire blast healing is not absolutely needed, I simply hate using operator as a crutch or a panic button (oh no I am surrounded and down on health let's press a button to go invincible and get out of here).

[Imperth]

11 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

1. If your high endgame is SP stuff beyond level 2000 then it is expected because not every frame can excel there. That is a no man's land where balance and logic do not exist and health essentially becomes binary.

 

Again, you are creating very specific variables that is useless and makes no sense, if you think that Ember can reach lvl 2000 even with all the things  i mentioned(which most of those shards,arcanes just make her much bearable to play and not stronger) without using shield gate you are dreaming on top of that you claim that she has 90% DR which she mostly can't keep up(even if she did that would be useless at those levels anyway).

 

 

11 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

2. If you need all these stuff to consider Ember viable you are playing her wrong. Seriously, not being sarcastic. In your "high endgame", maybe, but for anything else, you only need Nourish because it has an unholy 1.6x universal energy multiplier that scale with strength (read: Ember passive). Again, people keep complaining about immolation energy drain without noticing the simple fact that it only drains energy when you stay at 90% for a long time. Just manipulate the heat gauge at around 80 - 85%, or manipulate the rate of heat gain such that your downtime between fire blast is minimal. It is easy. At least that's how I do SP Lua survival without arcane energize and any amber shards and stuff you mentioned.

Okay, "You are playing her wrong" no need to continue this discussion anymore lol.

Edited April 10 by Imperth

[RichardKam]

2分钟前 , Imperth 说:

Again, you are creating very specific variables that is useless and makes no sense, if you think that Ember can reach lvl 2000 even with all the thing  i mentioned without using shield gate you are dreaming on top of that you claim that she has 90% DR which she mostly can't keep up(even if she did that would be useless at those levels anyway).

If you have no intention to provide any meaningful input to the discussion you can just type "Ember sucks" and leave. That's the standard of this forum anyway and I shouldn't expect too much.

[RichardKam]

52分钟前 , Imperth 说:

Why would you even use Blind rage when there is Transient Fortitude which synergises really well with already must equip Continuity/Primed Continuity which also dosn't  bring any Efficiency negatives?
 

Slow down, chill, and read again. I explicitly told people not to use blind rage.

[Imperth]

18 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

If you have no intention to provide any meaningful input to the discussion you can just type "Ember sucks" and leave. That's the standard of this forum anyway and I shouldn't expect too much.

I already provided the most useful info regarding Ember without using pointless accusations and variables that dosn't apply to real gameplay and got accused with "playing her wrong". You are the one who keeps adding random and weird variables to your every reply to just make yourself right, i would thoroughly answer all your questions with joy but you really don't know Ember and i don't mean this as an insult or anything like that. 

I have 900 Hours of gameplay and Ember is my most used frame with close to 60% usage.
I used her and use her in every type of content and i know ins and outs of her and yeah "Ember sucks" without all the above improvements i mentioned but that dosn't change the fact that i'm keep going to play her.

As i said, let people ask for improvements in their warframes instead of being this weird on forums.

Edit: Just to prove my point

You see the Ember Prime Usage going up by MR rank, do you know why? Because she becomes "viable"  with all those above upgrades that i mentioned which new players lack, or just don't want to invest into her while there are already better frames who become even better with those investments. And her maximum usage is only 0.82%. Yeah, she  dosn't require "tweaks" or "rework".

Edited April 10 by Imperth