LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[Zeow31]

il y a 6 minutes, Cegrin a dit :

Same as before, just not as efficiently.  Dante can still quickly buff the party's defenses through overguard just as high as before, it just takes more casts.  He can still shred enemies vulnerable to status, it just requires a bit more precision.  And so on. 

Which means the one actual problem Dante had still isn't fixed, he still #*!%s with the 2 chroma players out there,  it just means now instead of using Triumph twice, you'll have to spam it almost 5 times.

He's not gonna shred anyone, this game's LoS have been broken for an eternity, you can be certain that tomorrow's hotfix will just take them from "Outrageously busted" to "Holy S#&$, don't tell me you paid someone to build this".

And at the end of it all, you still haven't answered me : Why would I bother with so much setup when Styanax's 4 is right there ?

Edited April 5 by Zeow31

[TheTundraTerror]

3 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

 

We appreciate the video, since it showcases the problem with the current Line of Sight checks in a very analytical and accurate way.  However, the behavior in the video is what is being fixed. See attached video for the upcoming improvements to how we check for LOS that were mentioned in the first post.

DE: "We don't like people testing everything in the Simulacrum. It's not reflective of real gameplay where 20 Heavy Gunners stand in place."
Also DE:

[Cinizstar]

1 hour ago, JullieTheCutie said:

I'd say revert the changes, this was way too early and those who invested into the pack (may now want a refund) or forma'd Dante more than likely now feel betrayed by how drastic and sudden this is after how short this update has been out. This is not how you treat a new-and-fresh Warframe. LOS creates way too many consistency issues for Tragedy (and in general) and maybe the overguard could've been reduced a tad but not by like 60% (even Nezha's Aug range was nerfed a bit too much (also too early of a nerf as well)). You guys [DE] need to spend more time reviewing and playtesting nerfs in-house to avoid these situations. This type of precedent can kill any hype or excitement for anything in the game receiving sudden huge nerfs after a big update. I would seriously reconsider how you roll out updates like these in the future DE. I want you guys to be able to create the best game possible since I love Warframe. Take a little more time reviewing and letting things breathe, whether that's a new Frame, Augment, Weapon, or Mechanic.

I only want you guys to avoid having players purposefully avoid buying/ playing (or refusing to buy anything in the future with these types of decisions) with stuff in a new big update, and instead pick everything up months later due to the precedent of having hype and excitement completely null and voided.

All the best, from a registered loser

+1

[KaosKuantico]

hace 40 minutos, AHendy dijo:

Wow, hadn’t even thought of that, what a stellar feedback.

Not my idea, an user suggested that in reddit. And I have to admit, it would be the best option, it would make everyone happy. We get the original Dante but those who don't want the overguard, they just can choose not to

[ClockworkDirge]

Please revert the changes or refund me for buying the chronicles pack. For the first time since 2015 I sincerely regret supporting you as a game development studio with my hard earned cash after the overwhelmingly terrible changes you decided to implement today.

[Str33tlightSamurai]

9 hours ago, Cegrin said:

Same as before, just not as efficiently.  Dante can still quickly buff the party's defenses through overguard just as high as before, it just takes more casts.  He can still shred enemies vulnerable to status, it just requires a bit more precision.  And so on. 

In the current state of his 4, it is HORRENDOUSLY bugged, because Warframe's LoS system is bugged.

They have refused to fix this game engine issue for quite a while, just like how the sticky corners thing took 11 years to patch. The overguard issues need to be reverted and addressed differently, more specifically that the extreme amounts of overguard that Dante used to generate, meddles with Warframes like Chroma, as overguard does not apply any buff effects. It's similar to how OG isn't affected by Adaptation.

As for Tragedy, the LoS requirements kneecap his damage potential, as not only does Dark Verse not use an LoS check, but the LoS on Dante's 4 has been rendered so bugged and inoperable, that it ignores enemies behind any obstacles, not just the average wall between tileset. In this sense, they have killed Dante.
 

[Waeleto]

12 minutes ago, Cegrin said:

Same as before, just not as efficiently.  Dante can still quickly buff the party's defenses through overguard just as high as before, it just takes more casts.  He can still shred enemies vulnerable to status, it just requires a bit more precision.  And so on. 

I just can't with the nerf crowd anymore, yall got him gutted and want him to remain in this horrible state bffr now

[Krucian]

1 hour ago, JullieTheCutie said:

I'd say revert the changes, this was way too early and those who invested into the pack (may now want a refund) or forma'd Dante more than likely now feel betrayed by how drastic and sudden this is after how short this update has been out. This is not how you treat a new-and-fresh Warframe. LOS creates way too many consistency issues for Tragedy (and in general) and maybe the overguard could've been reduced a tad but not by like 60% (even Nezha's Aug range was nerfed a bit too much (also too early of a nerf as well)). You guys [DE] need to spend more time reviewing and playtesting nerfs in-house to avoid these situations. This type of precedent can kill any hype or excitement for anything in the game receiving sudden huge nerfs after a big update. I would seriously reconsider how you roll out updates like these in the future DE. I want you guys to be able to create the best game possible since I love Warframe. Take a little more time reviewing and letting things breathe, whether that's a new Frame, Augment, Weapon, or Mechanic.

I only want you guys to avoid having players purposefully avoid buying/ playing (or refusing to buy anything in the future with these types of decisions) with stuff in a new big update, and instead pick everything up months later due to the precedent of having hype and excitement completely null and voided.

All the best, from a registered loser

^

[EnviroUnit]

Oh Dante, dearest Dante, I told you not to go.
To Voidtongue your being may have succumbed.
But even its vile corruption cannot surpass the pain.
Of the thousand factual chants that currently burden your mind.
Chanting: Useless! Useless! Useless!

Oh Dante, sweetest Dante, the only tale you shall now recite.
Is a tale of woe caused by the creators of yours.
Who take pleasure in butchering your potential and fun.
Just like Ballas who enjoyed dissecting your Warframe kind.
During the hollow days of the vile Orokin Empire.

Oh Dante, precious Dante, what should I now do?
When your tragedy no longer comforts my mind.
When your foes no longer fear your triumph.
How am I supposed to bear without you?
Oh Dante, dear Dante, why must I weep for you so?

-Drusus Leverian, most probably.

Edited April 5 by EnviroUnit
Fixed a single typo. I dislike my own typos. Drusus wouldn't make typos now, would he? I tend to though. Also italic text for flavor.

[Zomiku]

3 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

 

We appreciate the video, since it showcases the problem with the current Line of Sight checks in a very analytical and accurate way.  However, the behavior in the video is what is being fixed. See attached video for the upcoming improvements to how we check for LOS that were mentioned in the first post.

Please, show us the footage how it will perform not in a simulacrum, with enemies line up, but in actual tileset with moving enemies and dozen of walls, doors, corners, rails, barrels, crates, and other stuff. And also, preferably show us the footage where is Dante is not a host.

[MegaloStrikeBack]

31 minutes ago, Cegrin said:

Same as before, just not as efficiently.  Dante can still quickly buff the party's defenses through overguard just as high as before, it just takes more casts.  He can still shred enemies vulnerable to status, it just requires a bit more precision.  And so on. 

Ok but it's still worse than before, the point is that he didn't need a nerf to begin with when there are Warframes that are way better. Why settle for less than what we originally had?

Edited April 5 by MegaloStrikeBack

[DaytonThurmer]

I believe that the adjustments made to Dante were quite hastily made, as the time from him being the new shiny warframe did not have enough time to die down and thus a large majority of the player base was still using him just because of that fact alone and that more time should have been taken into consideration before such a detrimental adjustment be made to his overall kit, thank you for your time today.

[Alt3rcode]

I feel gutted to have invested in the new frame, both platinum (money) and time. The only things he felt unique and fun were removed from it, which was being able to force weapons' and abilities slash on a single blow and protecting itself. Just revert this nerf, no one wanted it. It just makes the frame un-fun.

[Cavern]

I don't think just making LOS better is really going to fix him since LOS in this game has been bugged since forever, just fully revert tragedy back to the way it was before. I would have gave DE the benefit of the doubt for fix LOS on Dante, but after the nerf i feel like they are just going to make it worse

Edited April 5 by Cavern
add sentence

[fullclip2581]

“We are only evaluating and slightly tweaking Dante”

Yep, lost all creditability on that one.  Nice job folks. 

[Rich_Rulez]

Dante’s Tragedy is a great title, cause it’s definitely a tragedy. 
I think finally in a long time DE finally made a balanced frame. The only thing needed is to change allies from receiving overguard, not only is it excessive but it messes with ppls builds. If you decide to play the game for more than 5 mins in Steel Path you would have noticed that nothing was “OP” or deserving of a nerf. Revert the changes, this was just over the top (rip pageflight)

Edited April 5 by Rich_Rulez

[Slobunt]

Revert the LoS change, don't try to fix it. You released a warframe that everybody liked and released with zero bugs, just to GIVE him bugs for no reason. Dont fix LoS, revert the tragedy change.

 

Justice4Dante

Edited April 5 by Slobunt

[ykiikii]

Please just revert his whole Tragedy nerf.

Why are Warframes like Saryn, Volt, Gauss and Mirage allowed to nuke your lobbies, but if the cool owl wizard does the same but worse you nerf it?

"After much review and feedback consideration, we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed, but rather his accumulation of Overguard."

You've said it yourself. His DPS is not the issue. So why nerf it...?

Thank you for reading.

[InuKujo]

Please revert the change to Dante and nerf overguard to teammates :) i just came back to the game just for Dante and FUN TIME IS GONE! Instead of nerfting dante to through the ground how about buffing other frames???? 

Edited April 5 by InuKujo

[Cegrin]

55 minutes ago, Zeow31 said:

Which means the one actual problem Dante had still isn't fixed, he still #*!%s with the 2 chroma players out there,  it just means now instead of using Triumph twice, you'll have to spam it almost 5 times.

He's not gonna shred anyone, this game's LoS have been broken for an eternity, you can be certain that tomorrow's hotfix will just take them from "Outrageously busted" to "Holy S#&$, don't tell me you paid someone to build this".

And at the end of it all, you still haven't answered me : Why would I bother with so much setup when Styanax's 4 is right there ?

Correction: the problem that you acknowledge and which wasn't the reason for the change wasn't fixed.  The change was made, by all indications, because it was adding more party survivability than intended.  What you're talking about here is a different matter entirely.

LoS being broken is a valid complaint.  I don't mean to imply otherwise.  But the mechanic being broken does not change the intended niche.  It's a reason that the mechanic needs to be fixed, and - at minimum - a stopgap needs to be put in place so Dante approaches the functionality of that niche, such as the "cone" solution/compromise I saw suggested earlier in the thread. 

*shrug* Because you don't want to play as Styanax?  Because Styanax's 4 requires different circumstances (namely the Intrepid Stand augment and a bunch of grouped up enemies that your allies may or may not tear through before you get your overshields?) Because you also want to amplify party damage with Wordwarden or increase enemy status vulnerability through Pageflight? The answer to the question isn't a simple either/or based off of a singular ability, it's an answer that's neccesarily based more on the whole of their kits. 

47 minutes ago, Str33tlightSamurai said:

Why are you such a bootlicker?
In the current state of his 4, it is HORRENDOUSLY bugged, because Warframe's LoS system is bugged. They have refused to fix this game engine issue for quite a while, just like how the sticky corners thing took 11 years to patch. The overguard issues need to be reverted and addressed differently, more specifically that the extreme amounts of overguard that Dante used to generate, meddles with Warframes like Chroma, as overguard does not apply any buff effects. It's similar to how OG isn't affected by Adaptation. As for Tragedy, the LoS requirements kneecap his damage potential, as not only does Dark Verse not use an LoS check, but the LoS on Dante's 4 has been rendered so bugged and inoperable, that it ignores enemies behind any obstacles, not just the average wall between tileset. In this sense, they have killed Dante.
 

It's not "bootlicking".  My point is that the appeal to popularity argument of "most players don't like the change" (as per the post I originally responded to) doesn't hold up because so many of the arguments that is referring to are disingenuous (such as the "should have buffed everything else to Dante's level"), based on extreme outliers (such as the "wasn't so overpowered after an hour or so in endless SP"), or predicated on false - and frankly insulting - assumptions, such as the idea that DE had to have been tricked into the nerf by taking some rando at their word.  As I said in my original post (which, to be fair, had to be edited in, as an errant enter submitted the post prematurely): Appeal to popularity is a poor argument, and "If you want them to revert a change, you need hard math and practical examples within the gameplay bellcurve to demonstrate your point."

I'm not saying the change is perfect or even good.  I'm saying that that if you want to convince DE that the change needs to be undone, you need to both demonstrate why it needs to be changed, and that the situation you describe is typical rather than an outlier.  I have no bones with the "LoS was a poor choice" or "the overguard problem could have been better addressed with <proposal>" positions, provided they can elaborate on how and why.  If you can elucidate your position, I wish you all the best.  I just hate the "people don't like the nerf, so you should undo it" argument.  Nerfs are done because they're perceived to be necessary, and they are expected to be unpopular.  You aren't going to convince a game dev that the the change was a mistake by saying that the nerf is unpopular.  You convince them by showing - in a reproducable manner - that the change doesn't work as intended. 

Edited April 5 by Cegrin

[MasterControl]

Revert the LoS change, please. Most status application is already LoS, it is entirely unnecessary. The change to Pageflight also hurts a lot, it is an indirect nerf to everything Dante wants to be doing.

[CelticShaman]

Everybody is telling to full revert so do it. The only complaints people had were with overguard so why did you even touch his damage? I came back (basically) for Dante and I've spent more money than I care to admit on several aspects of the game and was considering prime access for Protea. Crap like this is making me reconsider. Everyone is being very reasonable, has was not overpowered in the first place.

Full revert. Just forget the LoS stuff.

Edited April 5 by CelticShaman

[Nero.DMC]

5 minutes ago, Cegrin said:

Correction: the problem that you acknowledge and which wasn't the reason for the change wasn't fixed.  The change was made because it was adding more party survivability than intended.  What you're talking about here is a different matter entirely.

LoS being broken is a valid complaint.  I don't mean to imply otherwise.  But the mechanic being broken does not change the intended niche.  It's a reason that the mechanic needs to be fixed, and - at minimum - a stopgap needs to be put in place so Dante approaches the functionality of that niche, such as the "cone" solution/compromise I saw suggested earlier in the thread. 

*shrug* Because you don't want to play as Styanax?  Because Styanax's 4 requires different circumstances (namely the Intrepid Stand augment and a bunch of grouped up enemies that your allies may or may not tear through before you get your overshields?) Because you also want to amplify party damage with Wordwarden or increase enemy status vulnerability through Pageflight? The answer to the question isn't a simple either/or based off of a singular ability, it's an answer that's neccesarily based more on the whole of their kits. 

It's not "bootlicking".  My point is that the appeal to popularity argument of "most players don't like the change" (as per the post I originally responded to) doesn't hold up because so many of the arguments that is referring to are disingenuous (such as the "should have buffed everything else to Dante's level"), based on extreme outliers (such as the "wasn't so overpowered after an hour or so in endless SP"), or predicated on false - and frankly insulting - assumptions, such as the idea that DE had to have been tricked into the nerf by taking some rando at their word.  As I said in my original post (which, to be fair, had to be edited in, as an errant enter submitted the post prematurely): Appeal to popularity is a poor argument, and "If you want them to revert a change, you need hard math and practical examples within the gameplay bellcurve to demonstrate your point."

I'm not saying the change is perfect or even good.  I'm saying that that if you want to convince DE that the change needs to be undone, you need to both demonstrate why it needs to be changed, and that the situation you describe is typical rather than an outlier.  I have no bones with the "LoS was a poor choice" or "the overguard problem could have been better addressed with <proposal>" positions, provided they can elaborate on how and why.  If you can elucidate your position, I wish you all the best.  I just hate the "people don't like the nerf, so you should undo it" argument.  Nerfs are done because they're perceived to be necessary, and they are expected to be unpopular.  You aren't going to convince a game dev that the the change was a mistake by saying that the nerf is unpopular.  You convince them by showing - in a reproducable manner - that the change doesn't work as intended. 

Dude, have you played with dante or with a Dante in any significant content since the nerf? he is utter trash now, there is no reason to play him, he does not deal damage, he needs to cast 3 times to do 0dps unless an enemy is on top of him, his shields are whatever, they never were that strong to begin with but whatever if they wanted to make them feel less powerful.

like the best dante you can play RN is Noctua dante wich is the same as any other frame, why would you pick him over any of the good frames that actually do something beside having to cast 3 abilities for no return whatsoever.

He was a cool frame that could be played in a very different way, now he is trash that is annoying to play.

Quote

or predicated on false - and frankly insulting - assumptions, such as the idea that DE had to have been tricked into the nerf by taking some rando at their word. 

Would like to add: they literally said his damage was fine, then they nerfed the damage by a big chunk, how do you explain that? if they are not taking a random at their word and their own data said the damage was fine then WHY did they nerf his damage by that much? 

Edited April 5 by Nero.DMC

[Museigen]

Considering pre-patch Dante's overall capabilities, it's not a wise choice to nerf him now when the hype is high and everyone is "devouring" him like hungry wolfs. There's only one aspect that is problematic of him, which is how overguard can be disruptive to some builds on team play. Which means that what should be revised is how those builds are interacting with overguard, or maybe his team wide buffs. But not his own overguard capabilities.
Because, let's be honest, everything he does, someone does better. He's a magician with many tricks, but not excell at anything. Let him be good at what he does. There's no reason to nerf everything he does! He is not dominant, he's just the new toy that is actually cool and good to play with! If you wait new data, I'm sure you gonna see that his nuke is not that great compared to real nuke warframes, he's not tanky like a tank warframe, and he's not that great of a support, beyond early levels. But remember, he's a cavia warframe... He's only available at the end of the last quest. And in early levels anything can be seemly overpowered.
So, if you're worried about his dominance on basic start chart (what I mean with early levels), here are some suggestions of possibilities:
- Non-linear scaling with strength.
- Nerf the base damage of Tragedy, the one that it gets with 0 dots on enemy. (compensate the multiplier as needed)
- About overguard... I don't think it warrant any changes because of base star chart. Actually it's really a positive skill to use there, so everyone can play happily.
In another note:
- The Wordwarden buff is good, but it compensates nothing. It just tilt the design to be a half baked weapon platform like many others. Not what is expected from Dante. If you want, you can revert it back, makes little difference. But if it's kept there, it's a good incentive to actually build Noctua, which is good.

But, again, it's TOO EARLY TO USE THE KNIFE. Let the warframe play, it's not a good idea to just trample over yourselves because of a skewed perception. There's no reason to insist on line of sight on tragedy, since dark verse, tragedy enabler, already has it.
With this one week of gameplay, the only thing that is obvious now is that you release a really great warframe that people are having a blast to play with. And for me too, he's everything I ever wanted from a warframe. I prefer the caster playstyle, I actually wanted a wizard warframe. I got what I wanted... Now you wanna to suddenly take it away? Why? Doesn't make any sense such a hasty decision.
So, revert the changes, hold your knife and see how this goes. This change was, as people call it, a kneejerk reaction.

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[MortyPrime78]

Ok, here's my take on the whole situation (I'm probably going to get hate for this but whatever).

I played 5 rounds of Netracells with Dante post-nerf (didn't bother with Deep Archimedia, rewards didn't seem worth it and were mostly the same as Netracells).  Prior to this, I went into Simulacrum to test him against SP level enemies with the AI turned off because I normally play in full squads so aggro is divided up, not even counting Dante's birds which draw aggro themselves.  Yes, the changes were too heavy-handed too soon.  TBH I'm a bit worried for Jade's release if I'm going to farm all the components, hear that she's god tier, potato her as soon as she's out of the foundry, and she's nerfed to the ground a week later.  Even more so for the players who choose to buy her day 1 and basically waste their money and forma.  Hell, I had some plat and used it to buy his syandana and armor.  The overguard for Dante was toned down quite a bit this patch, which still doesn't address situations like Chroma or Hunter Adrenaline Inaros at all, but just skirts around the problem by nerfing Dante, who's really a symptom of the real problem with overguard as a whole (others include Frost and Styanax with augments): shutting down the ability synergies of other frames.  Overguard as a whole really needs to be looked at for this reason, but DE hasn't addressed the problem directly yet.  And according to them, this was originally the main reason they wanted to nerf Dante, but then they also added the Tragedy nerfs on top of this.  The balance philosophy I see is admittedly baffling sometimes.

BUT (and this is the part I'm likely gonna get hate for)

In practice, when bullet jumping around the map and rotating the camera, it's not that hard to get enemies into line of sight for Tragedy (and if DE actually gets the hotfix tomorrow right, it'll be easier).  Movement has been central to this game's identity for a long time, and I know this as someone who started playing maybe a year ago.  Plus, with how his 3 was set up to be LoS prior to the patch, and how it's pretty much used just to prime enemies for Tragedy (or set up his other spell combos), it felt kind of weird to have enemies not hit by 3 or primed by a status weapon / Noctua before casting Tragedy take minimal damage from the spell on SP.  It puts the nuke ability more in line with how the primer works and makes Dante players be more mindful of their positioning when casting the spell.  Plus Paragrimms take away aggro, so even with the nerfed overguard, in a full squad of 4 players (I played with randoms in Netracells today) I generally saw the party not taking much damage.  Coming out from behind cover isn't much of a risk.

I will say that this was in Netracells, which are a high level mission with about level 200-220 enemies and Steel Path modifiers with sortie rez restrictions.  I can't speak for players who go to level cap.  This may not also reflect everyone else's experiences with Dante today, but comes from my personal observations of the frame in gameplay.  If the nerfs turn you off from Dante, then it's your decision as a player to drop him and I respect that.  For those who do want to play Dante post-nerf, his play style changed quite a bit with this patch, and you have to be more active in lining up Tragedy.  He is still more difficult to play after the nerfs, but he remains IMO one of the most versatile frames I have played, with damage and support capabilities.

I can't say for sure if the patch will fix Dante's LoS or not.  I think it's good that DE is taking a look at this specifically which has been broken for a while from my understanding on multiple frames.  If it does fix it (which I am very cautiously optimistic about), then I personally think Dante will be in an OK spot after the patch.  If not, then I agree that DE should just revert the Tragedy changes back from LoS, which was buggy to begin with, to the AoE it was before and get rid of LoS on all similar abilities.  I still find it odd that Dante is singled out for AoE nerfs because he's new when frames like Saryn, Mesa, and Octavia exist.

TLDR: Overguard is the real issue that got ignored and caused Dante's Tragedy to also get nerfed, Dante requires more movement now to get enemies into LoS for Tragedy but is still viable at most levels of play, let DE attempt a fix at LoS first to try to make it more consistent (let them cook)