Aight, if overguard is made to make all CC useless, let's extend it to abilities in general

[Aruquae]

10 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

prefer all of the above to Overguard, I found myself being really annoyed doing an Interception recently...y'know one mission type where CC is viable, I leave some Yareli bubbles at a point to deal with business elsewhere and as soon as I leave its being captured by you guessed it an Eximus

The amount of times I’m stuck soloing an interception… jumping around point to point just because an EXIMUS IS CONSTANTLY RINGING THE ALARM… is embarrassingly high

Gpod point, I completely forgot interceptions exist (maybe my brain covered up the trauma)

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Good, now that you think in this way... isn't that the exact same situation CC frames are in? I want them to all be in the same pit, not just CC

Of course, taking your advice... "just kill them with guns"

But that isnt the intent of their design to start with. The goal was to limit CC, that is it. Clearly objective successful. We dont have enough of pure CC frames, much of this also applies to damage frames. But we constantly get mobs that are immune to something. Or should we remove the option to self buff versus Eidolons? Or versus Eximus even, since obviously self buffers suffer less than anyone else because their weapons hit harder versus OG.

And no, not killing with guns. Kill with melee, since some guns had CC removed versus OG, and it must be equal among all guns by your own logic. Cant have poor Probocesis Cernos cryin in the corner alone. That wouldnt be fair.

23 hours ago, Aruquae said:

There is a difference between hard and just not useable, circuit defense highlights just how hard a CC frame struggles compared to a nuker (or just DPS frame)

No it really doesnt. Nuke frames struggle just as much since most skills dont actually kill effective enough for those waves. Saryn for instance tickles OG, because she has zero access to proper Spore stacks, which is her damaging ability, which drains fully between waves. And with the layout, frames like Protea wont have much effect in her turrets either since they hit few targets per attack so stack slowly throughout their duration. We dont have that many nuke frame in reality that are 1-hit-wonders in SP and beyond, most deal quite terrible damage to eximus at those levels. Look at Volt for instance, he goes from a low level nuke to having his nuke become a sustain ability in high content, since it practically deals no damage anymore. Banshee is a quake queen low down and turn into the bouncy castle manager at "higher" levels.

23 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Only one of her abilities damages, sure she has synergy between all the others tht let's her damage them, but you have to CC them first. See the problem?

And the number of abilities matter how? You claimed Banshee was a CC when she has a brief stun tied to one of her skills and she can knock back some with her #1. Then she has an AoE dps skill along with 2 massive debuffs. 

23 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Yes....? Because tank frames are built to tank. Notice how CC frames are usually built to be squishy? They're purposefully built squishy because their whole thing is to not get hit. Think of them as... controllers. You are made to control the map, with control... you will die. Of course you're going to throw in the "most have damage mitigation abilities," but why would I pick a frame for one ability? 
Why are you so against eximus being immune to all abilities? All of your points can easily contribute to all of the solutions you can have for if this feature did exist

Yeah, Rhino, Nezha, Inaros, Baruuk, Citrine, Gara, Frost, Hydroid, Khora, Yareli and Zephyr sure are squishy... Oh wait, no they arent!

To the bolded part. Exactly, so why are you upset over parts of a kit being locked out versus an eximus? The rest of the kit along with your weapons is there to annihilate them. I'm also wondering what crazy content you play where you ever go "damn I wish I could CC this eximus" or even give a thought to the exsistance of eximus in the first place.

The reason I'm against it is because it wasnt the intent of OG. The intent was to counter CC, that is it.

13 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

but it doesn't matter how many fodder enemies are effected when the dangerous ones give zero #*!%s. 

But they arent more dangerous. You practically just get several enemies in one body, which simply increases their uptime. Their damage is still the same as one single enemy, unless you get close enough so their abilities can hurt you, which I'm not sure why you would on a squishy frame. And for Banshee they dont have abilities in the first place. So if you dont rely on CC to kill everything else an eximus shouldnt really be an issue since it is just one mob shooting at you. If you heavily rely on CC for everything else, then yeah I can see the point due to the higher uptime of an eximus firing at you without you being able to control it. But you also just need to remove the OG before being able to apply your CC in such an extreme case.

[Aruquae]

33 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that isnt the intent of their design to start with. The goal was to limit CC, that is it. Clearly objective successful. We dont have enough of pure CC frames, much of this also applies to damage frames. But we constantly get mobs that are immune to something. Or should we remove the option to self buff versus Eidolons? Or versus Eximus even, since obviously self buffers suffer less than anyone else because their weapons hit harder versus OG.

And no, not killing with guns. Kill with melee, since some guns had CC removed versus OG, and it must be equal among all guns by your own logic. Cant have poor Probocesis Cernos cryin in the corner alone. That wouldnt be fair.

No it really doesnt. Nuke frames struggle just as much since most skills dont actually kill effective enough for those waves. Saryn for instance tickles OG, because she has zero access to proper Spore stacks, which is her damaging ability, which drains fully between waves. And with the layout, frames like Protea wont have much effect in her turrets either since they hit few targets per attack so stack slowly throughout their duration. We dont have that many nuke frame in reality that are 1-hit-wonders in SP and beyond, most deal quite terrible damage to eximus at those levels. Look at Volt for instance, he goes from a low level nuke to having his nuke become a sustain ability in high content, since it practically deals no damage anymore. Banshee is a quake queen low down and turn into the bouncy castle manager at "higher" levels.

And the number of abilities matter how? You claimed Banshee was a CC when she has a brief stun tied to one of her skills and she can knock back some with her #1. Then she has an AoE dps skill along with 2 massive debuffs. 

Yeah, Rhino, Nezha, Inaros, Baruuk, Citrine, Gara, Frost, Hydroid, Khora, Yareli and Zephyr sure are squishy... Oh wait, no they arent!

To the bolded part. Exactly, so why are you upset over parts of a kit being locked out versus an eximus? The rest of the kit along with your weapons is there to annihilate them. I'm also wondering what crazy content you play where you ever go "damn I wish I could CC this eximus" or even give a thought to the exsistance of eximus in the first place.

The reason I'm against it is because it wasnt the intent of OG. The intent was to counter CC, that is it.

But they arent more dangerous. You practically just get several enemies in one body, which simply increases their uptime. Their damage is still the same as one single enemy, unless you get close enough so their abilities can hurt you, which I'm not sure why you would on a squishy frame. And for Banshee they dont have abilities in the first place. So if you dont rely on CC to kill everything else an eximus shouldnt really be an issue since it is just one mob shooting at you. If you heavily rely on CC for everything else, then yeah I can see the point due to the higher uptime of an eximus firing at you without you being able to control it. But you also just need to remove the OG before being able to apply your CC in such an extreme case.

…I realize we’re arguing about something that isn’t the post. Our opinions on whether or not CC frames can function with Eximus would be besides the point of the post. Related yes, but not the topic at hand. 
You seem to think I want the overguard to change to compliment CC, but I don’t

I am fine with how overguard is. I just find it too targeted towards CC. When overguard was first implemented, the Devs stated it was to make Eximus “more of a priority, compared to regular units.” And that’s what they are to CC frames. 
My post is to highlight Eximus overguard also making them immune to damage abilities, to make them more of a priority for dps nukers.  
So, now that you know what I’m talking about in this post, what do you think? Yay or nay? 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I too do something like this, but I believe we are the minority 

Worth to note that this post isn’t about wanting to change overguard to make it easier for CC frames, it’s about changing Eximus overguard to make them immune to damage abilities. If there’s one thing the devs try to stop constantly, it’s AOE, and Eximus units completely trivialize (just by themselves) the only thing that was was worth considering against AOE (frame wise, not weapon wise). 
 

Only thing is, with a good glass cannon build (such as Banshee and Limbo), you would have a greater risk, yes, but you would at least have been able to deal with it. And no, I’m not referring to normal Star chart. I’m bringing up things such as SP endurance (and by that I just mean 10 min or longer) where you start to notice more Eximus. 
Of course my little rant on CC being completely useless against Eximus is beside the point. 
So, to ask the question… would you be fine with Eximus units being immune to damage abilities? Why, or why not 

Ahhh, I see. That's a tough one but I would say no to eximus being immune to damage abilities but yes to any damage procs in the IPS area. I say this because I think anything that has forceful, physical impact onto the overguard should count towards it's depletion (especially impact and blast based), but we shouldn't have any after effects the procs offer. I also agree with DE's decision to keep cold as the only elemental proc to have an effect since cold truly effects everything. I especially love that even that has a limited effect. That was a nice attention to detail. 

On a side note, I am very happy you specified your referencing to SP endurance. I honestly have a bias against longer endurance gameplay being included into game changes and balancing. Making it easier for that side usually further trivializes the normal chart and non endurance  SP sides and that is very bad for all of us, IMO. In fact, I lean towards giving the enemy even more leverage over us as soon as levels get to level 301 (aka right after 10x our max rank). More toxin eximus, more slash based enemies and more magnetic eximus. Players are too comfortable not having to use resistance mods and arcanes and try a little too hard to push DE even further away from using nearly all of them. I want level 301 to be damn near impossible and force endurance players to make even larger sacrifices for power, have better results from gaining resistance defense over power, or experiment with even more creative tactics to try and find a great balance.

This would help to solve a HUGE issue for me and maybe the forums in general: where and when in the game do these heavier discussions regarding balance, overguard, challenge, difficulty and "meaningful rewards" normally take place. It's a rant, sorry, but I think this separation can refine a lot of the game from all sides. 

[Aruquae]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

On a side note, I am very happy you specified your referencing to SP endurance. I honestly have a bias against longer endurance gameplay being included into game changes and balancing. Making it easier for that side usually further trivializes the normal chart and non endurance  SP sides and that is very bad for all of us, IMO. In fact, I lean towards giving the enemy even more leverage over us as soon as levels get to level 301 (aka right after 10x our max rank). More toxin eximus, more slash based enemies and more magnetic eximus. Players are too comfortable not having to use resistance mods and arcanes and try a little too hard to push DE even further away from using nearly all of them. I want level 301 to be damn near impossible and force endurance players to make even larger sacrifices for power, have better results from gaining resistance defense over power, or experiment with even more creative tactics to try and find a great balance.

 

Agreed, not everyone has the time for steel path endurance (or just simply doesn’t care to do it)

 

40 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Ahhh, I see. That's a tough one but I would say no to eximus being immune to damage abilities but yes to any damage procs in the IPS area. I say this because I think anything that has forceful, physical impact onto the overguard should count towards it's depletion (especially impact and blast based), but we shouldn't have any after effects the procs offer. I also agree with DE's decision to keep cold as the only elemental proc to have an effect since cold truly effects everything. I especially love that even that has a limited effect. That was a nice attention to detail. 

 

Relating to cold, someone in this post brought up an idea that let’s CC have diminished returns against overguard. Another person mentioned overguard Eximus being able to be cc’d, but for a few seconds. Maybe these suggestions can work to help give CC frames a chance at picking off overguard (something frames can already do). Of course, they could always just use their guns, but then at that point… so can the dps frames. 

[zBeATzA]

On 2024-04-06 at 1:26 AM, Yousho said:

I think this is largely nonsense.

If you simply keep the entire map CC'd you get no additional loot, affinity or focus. And if you keep nuking, sure more Eximus units spawns which you can also nuke for more loot, affinity and focus.

Saying "We can't have nice things" because people choose the play-style which is both easier and yields more material rewards is a very strange take.

Yooo, i never thought of that but is so true, in this game if you want loot and affinity you need to kill enemies and break containers, otherwise you get nothing just for completing the mission, the game would benefit if we had bonus objectives in every mission.

Also damage is king in every game, but CC should make killing said enemies easier, the only issue in warframe you unintentionally slow the game down and with terrible Rng this game has farming is already tidious, we shouldn't make it worse, nuking is another issue, killing enemies too fast in void fissures might result the entire team unable to open the relic.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

19 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Relating to cold, someone in this post brought up an idea that let’s CC have diminished returns against overguard. Another person mentioned overguard Eximus being able to be cc’d, but for a few seconds. Maybe these suggestions can work to help give CC frames a chance at picking off overguard (something frames can already do). Of course, they could always just use their guns, but then at that point… so can the dps frames. 

I agree here. Basically, we'll be giving overguard enemies a similar CC defense as the sentients. But, I'm seriously curious as to which abilities or frames are having a hard time? Because my builds and play style is different, I honestly do not know how many frames are negatively effected in such a high degree. Is it just Limbo, Volt and Banshee? That's all I can think of.

[Aruquae]

Just now, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I agree here. Basically, we'll be giving overguard enemies a similar CC defense as the sentients. But, I'm seriously curious as to which abilities or frames are having a hard time? Because my builds and play style is different, I honestly do not know how many frames are negatively effected in such a high degree. Is it just Limbo, Volt and Banshee? That's all I can think of.

Hmmm we got Gyre too, who requires shock in order to get some basics form of crowd control before nuking (as in SP she needs to armor strip). A previous Yareli playstyle I mentioned that uses max range/efficiency and strength as a dump stat. Might sound odd, but it actually works (still viable even though it was before Yareli buffs). Nova can also suffer, but not as much considering she’s got some form of tanking. Nyx also suffers a bit if she’s being singled out, but it’s manageable. 
Some other frames I haven’t mentioned also run CC, but it’s not that noticeable. Certain abilities as mentioned above

It’s less on the CC frames suffering from overguard (as you can “just shoot them”), and more so on nukers basically playing against Eximus as if they weren’t reworked. (Prebuffed Eximus so to say) 

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

They have had some successes here: Nox, Deimos Saxum, I'm 50/50 on Bursas, recently Severed Wardens.

There've been stinkers too though: PoE Thumpers, Orb Vallis Kyta Raknoids, Aerolysts, Deimos release Necramechs, recently Hollow Veins (may as well not have a weak spot).

I prefer all of the above to Overguard, I found myself being really annoyed doing an Interception recently...y'know one mission type where CC is viable, I leave some Yareli bubbles at a point to deal with business elsewhere and as soon as I leave its being captured by you guessed it an Eximus.

 

 

Nox was pretty good though had issues with melee. Now that melee doesn't rely on combo multiplier for damage it would work much better.

My biggest issue with Bursa besides their attacks not caring about LoS and other factors was they had Armor. I took issue with DE putting armor on anything that wasn't Grineer. They went even further just giving enemies like Wolf of Saturn generic DR that couldn't be removed. This was all just to compensate low level scaling.

I made a topic about Wolf of Saturn specifically and how they should have designed him using a weak point that staggers occasionally using mechanics similar to Ambulas armor which reduces his DR. Pretty much anything over the meme video I posted of me just standing still face tanking him in sorties for 2 min shooting.

Thumpers were just designed to be as annoying as possible I think while Necramechs are an example of over bloat similar to Wolf.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Aruquae said:

You seem to think I want the overguard to change to compliment CC, but I don’t

You kinda do when the purpose was to block CC specifically. You want to punish other things due to the immunity towards CC.

21 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I am fine with how overguard is. I just find it too targeted towards CC. When overguard was first implemented, the Devs stated it was to make Eximus “more of a priority, compared to regular units.” And that’s what they are to CC frames. 
My post is to highlight Eximus overguard also making them immune to damage abilities, to make them more of a priority for dps nukers.  
So, now that you know what I’m talking about in this post, what do you think? Yay or nay? 

That is what they are to nearly all frames, because no frame (or well close to no frame, Kullervo, Rev and Dante likely dont care) wants to leave them on the field since they can drain energy, make other enemies near immortal versus AoE etc. You also keep saying "dps nukers" like you say "CC frames" but have given no actual examples of frames that this applies to. You also seem fine with buff and debuff frames having an upper hand versus eximus. So there is no consistancy in your argument. What makes "dps nukers" stand out in comparison to a buffer or debuffer? Most "dps nukers" deal terrible damage overall to eximus with their skills, buffers and debuffers dont. So do you honestly find it sensible to block all direct damage abilities simply because we might have barely a handful of frames that deal enough damage with theirs to handle OG? While also leaving all self buffs and debuffs intact that practically have the best benefits already since they improve the thing most useful for handling OG/eximus, namely weapons.

Just look at Rhino vs Saryn. Rhino easily doubles his damage versus OG by having mearly +100% strength, Saryn barely deals any damage to OG with spores and miasma, she cant even improve her damage to OG because it is immune to viral. Or we can just take Kullervo that has no actual direct damage skill to effectively handle things quickly, he does have a massive debuff and buff instead that results in the same outcome. Same deal with Chroma and Mirage, huge damage increases, or a Volt shield for that matter. But for some reason your gripe is with damage dealing abilities?

I mean really, what is the difference between me tapping #1 on Kullervo to instagib an Eximus, shoot in it's general direction as a buffed Rhino, Chroma or Mirage, or sending a spearhead of horsies towards it with Dagath, whipping it with Khora, going brrr with Mesa or summoning some turrets with Protea that hopefully shoots at it? Why are you so focused on the last 4 examples and not the others?

[Aruquae]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You kinda do when the purpose was to block CC specifically. You want to punish other things due to the immunity towards CC.

Mmm true true, guess deep down I do 

Yes, make it less targeting towards CC. Shouldn’t be a problem, the ones who use dps frames can take the advice they’ve been giving to those who use CC frames

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is what they are to nearly all frames, because no frame (or well close to no frame, Kullervo, Rev and Dante likely dont care) wants to leave them on the field since they can drain energy, make other enemies near immortal versus AoE etc.

Compared to CC frames, you barely notice the change. 

 

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You also keep saying "dps nukers" like you say "CC frames" but have given no actual examples of frames that this applies to.

Ahhhh well I said “damage abilities,” which nukers are known for having. Seemed fitting, I would think nukers would have damage abilities. The term “DPS frames” was also mentioned (such as Kullervo). Equinox works too, Saryn, Octavia. When I’m in a mission with Equinox (or when I use her), she will nuke everything indiscriminately, she does not give a poop about Eximus, same with Saryn and Octavia. This could actually make Octavia more engaging considering she’ll now have to focus on Eximus instead of them just… dying. Lavos and Dante also destroy Eximus without even noticing. Yes, I’ll even throw in my beloved Garuda, her period ball will also demolish any Eximus without a second.
No DPS frame will ever even think about Eximus, which completely takes away the purpose of Eximus being a “priority.” 

 

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

While also leaving all self buffs and debuffs intact that practically have the best benefits already since they improve the thing most useful for handling OG/eximus, namely weapons.

 

Yes actually, pretty much. I did make a suggestion with them being immune to all abilities, but I figured we’ll deal with that after they’re immune to damage abilities. Tune in for more

 

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just look at Rhino vs Saryn. Rhino easily doubles his damage versus OG by having mearly +100% strength, Saryn barely deals any damage to OG with spores and miasma, she cant even improve her damage to OG because it is immune to viral. Or we can just take Kullervo that has no actual direct damage skill to effectively handle things quickly, he does have a massive debuff and buff instead that results in the same outcome. Same deal with Chroma and Mirage, huge damage increases, or a Volt shield for that matter. But for some reason your gripe is with damage dealing abilities?

Yes, notice how the end result for all of them (if this was implemented) is the same. We use our weapons to target them, you would stop all CC, and dps abilities… to take out your weapon… and kill them. Making the Eximus the “priorities” they were supposed to be. 

 

28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean really, what is the difference between me tapping #1 on Kullervo to instagib an Eximus, shoot in it's general direction as a buffed Rhino, Chroma or Mirage, or sending a spearhead of horsies towards it with Dagath, whipping it with Khora, going brrr with Mesa or summoning some turrets with Protea that hopefully shoots at it? Why are you so focused on the last 4 examples and not the others?

You don’t get it? I’ll answer this in one sentence 

The difference between all of that and CC, is that one just can’t work. I’ll pull up a quote for ya

[Aruquae]

On 2024-04-05 at 5:58 PM, Aruquae said:

Yes, you can CC everything that's not Eximus, you can also (ability) nuke everything INCLUDING eximus
Might as well make eximus a top priority and Nullifier part 2! (But without the buggy shield drone)

The quote in question @SneakyErvin

And now that I’ve answered your questions, you can answer mine.

Why are you against this, if the solution is simply the advice everyone has been giving to those who complained about CC? “Just shoot them, use your weapon. You can always use your damage abilities on enemies that aren’t Eximus. Just destroy the overguard, then it will work.” 

[Aruquae]

You’re also probably wondering why I keep emphasizing “priority”

I’m using DE’s words when they first implemented Eximus overguard 

Quote

The main objective of this Eximus Rework is to make them stand out more in battle, both in how they function and in how formidable they are to face against. We aim to achieve this in 2 ways: 

1. Amplify their threat with increased time-to-kill - accompanied with justifying rewards!
2. Enhancing their visual and mechanical functions to be more identifiable in combat.

These two shifts for Eximus units should make them more challenging to kill, but also make their specific threats easier to identify, giving players a more tactical way to evade them. 

Quote

Overguard was introduced as a means to make Eximus units feel more formidable, while also providing Tenno a way to crush their defenses with some solid teamwork and concentrated firepower. 

How on earth can they “stand out” if they are destroyed by Warframe abilities just like anyone else? They only stand out when you’re a CC frame, and you see an Eximus in the distance dancing to you while ignoring your abilities. Why do only CC frames have to see this? Why can’t the dps frames also see this? It’ll help with making them “stand out,” whilst also making them a “priority target.” 
You also brought up most CC frames being fine with Eximus considering they have some form of defense, this can also contribute to my point. Most dps frames are also so tanky, and usually have multiple tanking effects (outside of a few like Gyre/Dagath), so it’s not like it’ll be too much of a problem for you to be overwhelmed right? Unless that’s not what you said

Edit: You might also bring up AOE weapons pretty much being able to do the same thing that nukeframes do, but that’s negligible. AOE weapons (outside of Laetum and glaive) are used in moderation due to scare ammo economy. This also helps either way, if you’re using a nuker, but then stop to take out your weapon… you are prioritizing the Eximus. The occurrence would be the same occurrence CC frames currently have when finding Eximus. 
If you truly have no problem with CC frames against Eximus, then by your logic dps frames would also be completely fine with this change. In the end, it makes all frames more equal against Eximus. 

Edit 3: Think of it this way. When using a frame who’s primary abilities are CC, you must use weapons to kill them. When using frames you can just damage enemies with their abilities, you can continue using it. It’s not fair/equal among the frames, this would make it so. 
The end result will be no different then what people who use CC frames currently do 

Edit 4: And another thing, you might say that Eximus aren’t common enough for it to “completely kill CC,” but you neglect to bring up the buffs in the new Deimos nodes that gives EVERYONE OVERGUARD. Completely ruins any sort of CC you had planned and completely invalidates everyone there. Sure I can just… not do it with a CC frame, but then what is the point of CC? It simply pushes for more AOE and just outright damage instead of creativity. 

Edited April 9 by Aruquae

[Raikh]

If the game had a tiny semblance of balance there might be fruitful discussions to be had about CC or ability resistances but as it stands its not gonna lead to anything productive either way.

Regular Starchart/non-SP is so hopelessly lost that granting it a shred of a thought in its current state is only gonna make everything else worse. If you wanna balance starchart nerf all dmg by 99%+ and we can start talking but thats obviously not gonna happen. Its not even a dead horse anymore, it has decayed into nothingness.

For everything else ability nukers are *usually* not much more potent than according weapon platforms or they appear as a hybrid setup anyway. And if you bully the casters all you do is shift everything to jsut using weapon platforms, plain and simple. You do not create more interesting gameplay by shutting down abilities, never did. You only take away what makes this game special and stand out.

For the CC part thats in place, the smart play would be a resistance over full on immunity, like the Hollow Veins have for instance. So your huge area CC isn't lasting forever on Eximus units, 3s to 5s maybe instead. You can stop them but not forever. And you may now argue but thats plenty enough time to just blow them up. Yes ofc, just like you do w/o any CC at all but that way you show atleast a modicum of respect to the playstyles that have been introduced into the game rather than continue to reinforce whats already better anyway.

 

Edited April 9 by Raikh

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Compared to CC frames, you barely notice the change.

I dont notice a differece on CC frames either. Since I'm still required to kill to get anywhere, meaning whatever eximus do pop die instantly to whatever weapons or abilities the CC frame also uses. And I dont play Lamebo and wouldnt touch him with a stick most likey, or pee on him if he was on fire.

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Ahhhh well I said “damage abilities,” which nukers are known for having. Seemed fitting, I would think nukers would have damage abilities. The term “DPS frames” was also mentioned (such as Kullervo). Equinox works too, Saryn, Octavia. When I’m in a mission with Equinox (or when I use her), she will nuke everything indiscriminately, she does not give a poop about Eximus, same with Saryn and Octavia. This could actually make Octavia more engaging considering she’ll now have to focus on Eximus instead of them just… dying. Lavos and Dante also destroy Eximus without even noticing. Yes, I’ll even throw in my beloved Garuda, her period ball will also demolish any Eximus without a second.
No DPS frame will ever even think about Eximus, which completely takes away the purpose of Eximus being a “priority.” 

But they all deal their damage in different ways that just wouldnt work with a simple "immune to abilities" thing, since several frames are based on buffs that sit on them, not the enemy. Kullervo for instance teleports and recieves an absurd amount of crit chance, mine currently sits at 700% or something with BR active aswell. And how would those frames be handled? And Saryn not giving a poop about Eximus? You must sit at very low levels, since not even with a build somewhat invested in strength to total strip things with shards does her abilities deal well with OG. I also fail to see how Octavia would get more engaging, she has stealth, when does she ever bother to prioritize? Whatever dies dies when it dies.

Same as I dont see the problem with Garuda for instance. So she can kill an eximus with her ball... great... time to uhm recharge it again before killing the next. There is a reason it is so easy to replace her #1 with a helminth, since it is in reality just a fancy Aoe gun in the shape of a blood globe.

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Yes actually, pretty much. I did make a suggestion with them being immune to all abilities, but I figured we’ll deal with that after they’re immune to damage abilities. Tune in for more

You should probably have an idea for how buffs and debuffs would be stopped by OG. Since they are far more beneficial than direct damage abilities and should likely get the first OG-based nerf if you are to push a nerf. How would Wrathful, Roar or Vex be treated?

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Yes, notice how the end result for all of them (if this was implemented) is the same. We use our weapons to target them, you would stop all CC, and dps abilities… to take out your weapon… and kill them. Making the Eximus the “priorities” they were supposed to be. 

Except then we have frames with self buffs that increase their eHP or turn them invisible or invincible, meaning they can skip the impact of an eximus. Like I mentioned OG frames and Rev, immune to leech effects and can face tank shockwaves etc. How does that then turn out equal kit vs kit, Banshee vs Rev etc?

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

You don’t get it? I’ll answer this in one sentence 

The difference between all of that and CC, is that one just can’t work. I’ll pull up a quote for ya

And there will always be something that works while something else "just can't work". Where will it end?

CC is blocked by design, great. Now you want DD skills blocked, ok. Then buffs/debuffs that are offensive and help deal with OG, ok. And then you are still left with everything else that makes certain types of frames stand out and have an easier time versus OG by being able to take more damage, avoid damage completely or something similar. Nyx pets, revenant Thralls, Loki decoy, mesmer skin, OG/Halo, Volts shield, shield drones, DR skills, access to shield gate/replenishment, elemental ward, vex armor, gloom leech, invisibility and so on, all rooted in skills. Should also all of that get a special OG treatment through some wierd mechanics? And then we end up with frames of different states of innate tanking potential to make it really even and equally impactful when facing eximus. You will just never reach a point where it is true.

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

You also brought up most CC frames being fine with Eximus considering they have some form of defense, this can also contribute to my point. Most dps frames are also so tanky, and usually have multiple tanking effects (outside of a few like Gyre/Dagath), so it’s not like it’ll be too much of a problem for you to be overwhelmed right? Unless that’s not what you said

No I just brought up several frames that have CC that are tanky or are simply designed for something else while just having CC in their kit to show that your claim regarding CC frames being squishy isnt true. Yes some CC frames are squishy, but so are some buffers and dpsers. And now you are claiming most dps frames are so tanky. Like with most of the roster, it isnt either or, we have very few pure frames. Like I said before, we really only have a single actual CC frame and that is Limbo, most everyone else is a split between tanking, dps, supprt, CC and whatever else. Rhino = Tank, buffer, CC and debuffer with his roar augment. Frost = Tank, defender, CC, debuffer and buffer with augment(s). Kullervo = Tank and dps.

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Edit: You might also bring up AOE weapons pretty much being able to do the same thing that nukeframes do, but that’s negligible. AOE weapons (outside of Laetum and glaive) are used in moderation due to scare ammo economy. This also helps either way, if you’re using a nuker, but then stop to take out your weapon… you are prioritizing the Eximus. The occurrence would be the same occurrence CC frames currently have when finding Eximus. 

Sorry but I cant but lol at this, "(outside of Laetum and glaive) are used in moderation due to scare ammo economy". Because clearly Dual Toxocyst, Torid, Strun, Latron, Tonkor, Nukor, Cycron and several other AoE guns with silly great ammo economy doesnt exsists right? Not to mention the introduction of melee influence and extremely fast stances that just wipes everything within a 20m radius over and over and over, including annihilating guardian eximus units without any requirement whatsoever to aim. And in content high enough to maybe see a reason why someone uses CC in the first place, guns like Bramma, Zarr and Probo Cernos have infinite ammo, since they kill that many mobs per shot that there will always be ammo to pick.

Also I've already answered you why I'm against the idea. It wasnt the intended design. But also because weapons already do what DD skills do but better versus eximus, or atleast equally good. One of the thing you fail to realize is that CC was practically a guaranteed 1-shot, hence why it got treated this way by OG. DD abilities are not guaranteed 1-shots in the same way, neither are weapons. CC effectively guarantees something gets removed from play, no matter how poorly you are actually built aslong as you can hit the target with the effect. We dont have miss rating or resistance chance in WF like other games in order to curb the power of CC.

3 minutes ago, Raikh said:

For the CC part thats in place, the smart play would be a resistance over full on immunity, like the Hollow Veins have for instance. So your huge area CC isn't lasting forever on Eximus units, 3s to 5s maybe instead. You can stop them but not forever. And you may now argue but thats plenty enough time to just blow them up. Yes ofc, just like you do w/o any CC at all but that way you show atleast a modicum of respect to the playstyles that have been introduced into the game rather than continue to reinforce whats already better anyway.

Exactly!

Add a massive reduction instead of a flat immunity to CC, then stack diminishing return ontop of that. So first cast might last 3 seconds, then second cast 2, third 1 and then nothing. Or something like the moment OG takes damage any CC effect on the target will get reduced to 3 seconds and if reapplied it will suffer diminishing return that treats it as if the 3 second duration is the max duration, so second CC applied would only last 2 seconds etc.

Edited April 9 by SneakyErvin

[Aruquae]

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I dont play Lamebo and wouldnt touch him with a stick most likey, or pee on him if he was on fire.

Saying that to my digital face, damn

At this point I can’t convince you, nor do I care to. I’ve already proposed my side of the argument. So this will be my last reply

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And there will always be something that works while something else "just can't work". Where will it end?

 

It wouldn’t, this problem surfaced the moment DE implemented this. Outright destroying a play style is possibly the worst way to deal with the situation, and the only way we can achieve equality among that situation is by taking away the other frame’s strengths. Which is to say… a CC frame’s strength is CC, so take away the dps frame’s strengths. That is all. Just make them immune to both CC and ability damage. Nothing else, that is all I want. 

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No I just brought up several frames that have CC that are tanky or are simply designed for something else while just having CC in their kit to show that your claim regarding CC frames being squishy isnt true. Yes some CC frames are squishy, but so are some buffers and dpsers

Ahhh what I meant by that is CC frames are naturally squishier than dps frames. Sure they can be tanky, but not as tanky as say… Kullervo? Dante? Baruuk? They rely on their CC to survive. 

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Like with most of the roster, it isnt either or, we have very few pure frames. Like I said before, we really only have a single actual CC frame and that is Limbo, most everyone else is a split between tanking, dps, supprt, CC and whatever else. Rhino = Tank, buffer, CC and debuffer with his roar augment. Frost = Tank, defender, CC, debuffer and buffer with augment(s). Kullervo = Tank and dps.

Very true! So making them damage immune wouldn’t completely harm the frames considering they have more than just damage, or in your words “more than just CC.” Now you’re getting it

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because clearly Dual Toxocyst, Torid, Strun, Latron, Tonkor, Nukor, Cycron and several other AoE guns with silly great ammo economy doesnt exsists right?

They’re less AOE and more spammy spammy among groups. Not nuking, more baby bombs. (Not even) Besides, using those weapons against Eximus is the entire point of why I want Eximus overguard to be immune to damage. Don’t worry, you can go back to CC’ing and nuking right after you pop their overguard. 

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And in content high enough to maybe see a reason why someone uses CC in the first place, guns like Bramma, Zarr and Probo Cernos have infinite ammo, since they kill that many mobs per shot that there will always be ammo to pick.

Indeed, but at that point… why use a frame? It would simply be a matter of playstyle, choose what you want. 

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But also because weapons already do what DD skills do but better versus eximus, or atleast equally good.

True, I think they do it better, which is exactly why know one would notice if this was implemented. It still pushes towards prioritizing the Eximus (even for a second) if you’re using anyone other than a crowd controlling frame. 

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

One of the thing you fail to realize is that CC was practically a guaranteed 1-shot

Heh? One shot? They don’t even do damage, and if anything slow down the fight. In a game where everything was one shot, CC is simply (with your logic) a slower one shot. 

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

DD abilities are not guaranteed 1-shots in the same way, neither are weapons.

But they are, enemies can barely sustain one hit with certain frames/weapons. They are simply faster than CCing in terms of “one shotting”

 

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

CC effectively guarantees something gets removed from play, no matter how poorly you are actually built aslong as you can hit the target with the effect.

So does killing the target? CC is just a slower (I daresay more fun) version of that?

Whatever the case, I’m done with this argument. I can’t convince you, and you can’t convince me, as we both believe we are right.

 

🫱

(It’s a hand shake)
 

Edited April 9 by Aruquae

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Saying that to my digital face, damn

At this point I can’t convince you, nor do I care to. I’ve already proposed my side of the argument. So this will be my last reply

No idea what that has to do with Mr. Tophat. 🤷‍♂️

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

It wouldn’t, this problem surfaced the moment DE implemented this. Outright destroying a play style is possibly the worst way to deal with the situation, and the only way we can achieve equality among that situation is by taking away the other frame’s strengths. Which is to say… a CC frame’s strength is CC, so take away the dps frame’s strengths. That is all. Just make them immune to both CC and ability damage. Nothing else, that is all I want. 

No lol, that "problem" has exsisted for ages. Nullifiers, Eidolons, Arbitrations etc. And guess what, it isnt a problem!

6 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Ahhh what I meant by that is CC frames are naturally squishier than dps frames. Sure they can be tanky, but not as tanky as say… Kullervo? Dante? Baruuk? They rely on their CC to survive. 

But uhm they can, as the list provided shows, which also includes Baruuk that can apply some serious CC. And what is more tanky, being completely immune (Zephyr/Rev/Nyx), untargetable (Loki) or actually taking damage (Kullervo)? My point is, the roster is very mixed since not clear cut lines exsist between which "role" applies to which frame.

10 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Very true! So making them damage immune wouldn’t completely harm the frames considering they have more than just damage, or in your words “more than just CC.” Now you’re getting it

Which means there are no CC frames either, so no problem that a skill in a kit is locked out, since they still have access to some of their kit. Not unlike nullifiers that lock out CC and damage while leaving buffs. Different enemies apply different penalties. Adding ability immunity to OG would really just make them nulifiers without nullification on contact.

12 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

They’re less AOE and more spammy spammy among groups. Not nuking, more baby bombs. (Not even) Besides, using those weapons against Eximus is the entire point of why I want Eximus overguard to be immune to damage. Don’t worry, you can go back to CC’ing and nuking right after you pop their overguard. 

 "less AOE" when you mention uhm... Laetum. You are aware that all of those guns mentioned hit alot more than Laetum does right? Laetum is a 2m explosion. Even Burston hits more than Laetum does and can punch through without killing explosions aswell. And what does those weapons have to do with why you want Eximus to be immune to damage? With those weapons you likely wont notice an eximus in a group, since it will just evaporate from a chained beam, a splash or a ricochette, or a ricochette of a ricochette.

19 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Indeed, but at that point… why use a frame? It would simply be a matter of playstyle, choose what you want. 

Exactly, it is a matter of playstyle. Gun platforms, melee, support, DD, tank and so on.

20 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

True, I think they do it better, which is exactly why know one would notice if this was implemented. It still pushes towards prioritizing the Eximus (even for a second) if you’re using anyone other than a crowd controlling frame. 

But what would be the point aside from restricing one playstyle approach to dealing damage versus another? Some people simply enjoy playing the caster and not having to use weapons at all times. You might say "it is the same for CC then", but it isnt, since you still need to use guns or abilties to kill what you CC, so whatever playstyle approach you picked for dealing damage is still intact while enemies are immune to CC.

23 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Heh? One shot? They don’t even do damage, and if anything slow down the fight. In a game where everything was one shot, CC is simply (with your logic) a slower one shot. 

23 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

But they are, enemies can barely sustain one hit with certain frames/weapons. They are simply faster than CCing in terms of “one shotting”

23 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

So does killing the target? CC is just a slower (I daresay more fun) version of that?

Whatever the case, I’m done with this argument. I can’t convince you, and you can’t convince me, as we both believe we are right.

They remove the target from play no matter how much health the target has. So the target is effectively one shot since it no longer poses a threat. It really doesnt matter that damage does it to most enemies aswell, since CC scales infinitely without any actual investment or progress needed. Investments only alter how often you need to reapply that CC until the target is dead. There is a reason why games like WoW changed how CC works, since it was also in WF situation during vanilla, where you could CC enemies infinitely, but they added damage breaks and diminishing return to fix it. No more constant fear or stun locks or abuse of polymorph etc.

And CC isnt slower, it is instant and guaranteed. The only difference is you need to manually kill the target afterwards, but the threat from it is removed. The slowdown in the whole scenario is that extra 0.5 seconds or so you spend on casting the CC before starting to dps. You trade that 0.5 seconds for total safety.

[Aruquae]

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No idea what that has to do with Mr. Tophat. 🤷‍♂️

Oh, those were two separate things

One was just a joke because I like using Limbo, other was in regards to your reply previously. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Aruquae said:

Oh, those were two separate things

One was just a joke because I like using Limbo, other was in regards to your reply previously. 

Ouch my condolences. And could I advice you to seek out a shrink, since self destructive behavior is often not seen as healthy. 👀

[Aruquae]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Ouch my condolences. And could I advice you to seek out a shrink, since self destructive behavior is often not seen as healthy. 👀

Nah, self destructive is me using Yareli in a low hanging grineer tileset, or using Hildryn in no shield modifiers (yes)

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Nah, self destructive is me using Yareli in a low hanging grineer tileset, or using Hildryn in no shield modifiers (yes)

I pictured something completely different there!