PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[Phoenician]

8 minutes ago, Cortes02 said:

I wasn't playing when the update dropped and they nerfed him right after I started building him

I think this is something quite a few people have with this change because it seems to skew the interpretation of why we're unhappy.

We know Dante can clear vast amounts of enemies. We know he can do SP 9999, we know he is a strong frame. The problem is he has to have all of those enemies totally in his FOV without so much as a shadow obscuring an enemy in order for the 4 to work as it did before.

Dante was fun before. You could prime one group of enemies in a location with one cast of his 3, move to another location and prime them with the second cast then reposition between the two and 4 nuke. It was fun, it was active, it was powerful. It was an active playstyle.

Now you need to prime one group of enemies with two casts of his 3 and detonate on the same group or you draaaaggg them to another group and prime the second group as well and position yourself to see both groups then 4 and still leave some enemies alive because they were blocked by Dante or a desk or a bush.

Now you need to repeat either part or all of the loop to kill the few remaining enemies that were obscured. Why?

It's boring, it's unfun, it's not active or interactive, it's just not what we had in terms of mobility and fluidity and there was no reason for the change.

We have suggested removing the base damage. We have suggested tuning down the range. Both suggestions achieve a healthy balance and do not push Dante into 'must have' territory like Saryn or Revenant or Octavia et al.

We just want the fluidity and mobility that we had before instead of a static weapons platform that has to JUMP and use an ability just to SEE enemies because a bit of foliage can stop the magic of a void powered space ninja.

 

[KitMeHarder]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Nezha's Divine Retribution Change

Divine Spears now have a set base radius of 14m (scaleable with Ability Range) instead of the previous 50% Ability Range reduction while the Augment is equipped. 

After reading player feedback, reducing Divine Spears’ range by 50% rendered the Augment quite limiting and carved heavily into Mod Slot space to accommodate for it. So we’ve instead given it a base Radius to keep it within reason, but also to bring it back to a much more manageable level without dipping into extremes (as it was prior to the changes). 

While this is something I could settle for, IMO I really think the augment shouldn't be nerfed this way, especially with all the drawbacks and bugs it already has. I implore you to read the below thread and take one more pass at the augment.

• The augment already has a soft Line-of-Sight restriction
  • In large part, you already had to see an enemy in the first place for this augment to work. This isn't Volt's Discharge, where I just hit one button and things die. I have to actually see an enemy to spread status onto before I even cast my 4, I have to have highly invested weapons for it to reliably (even then) kill everything speared, and you had to do even more than that to actually get the most out of the augment.
• Overguarded enemies
  • Overguarded enemies are already a counter to Divine Spears, as they can't be ragdolled by the ability. Compare that to other damage abilities, where most don't need to CC enemies first to do damage.
• In fact, all Ragdoll immune enemies counter the augment
  • So not only is it that overguarded enemies counter Divine Spears, but any enemy without a Ragdoll animation counters DS. Enemies that are prone to countless CCs otherwise, now counter Divine Spears and thus the augment. Kuva Guardians (vulnerable state), the Anatomizer, the Hollow Vein, Nechramechs, Bursas, Amalgam Alkonoist, Deimos Saxum, the Severed Warden, Deimos Jugulus, Aurax Raknoid, Terra Jackel, etc...
• Overkilling an enemy does not spread status on more sources than you'd think
  • If for example I head shot an enemy with my Kuva Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding would have produced a slash proc, but the enemy dies, no slash proc spreads. Same thing with something like the Glaive Prime, if I one-shot a butcher trying to kill a speared Heavy Gunner, the game just says "no slash proc for you". This is just another limiting factor the augment already has, and it reduces the amount of viable weapons you'd think would normally work.
• Elemental mods do not apply to spread DoTs and Faction damage only applies once instead of twice (including slash)
  • You can see in the screenshot, the heat DoT from my Javlok is doing 1,194 damage to the initial target, but only 249 damage to every other speared enemy. That's less than 21% of the initial damage.
• Enemies are speared at different times, and not all at once
  • Enemies are not speared at the same time. There is up to a 0.5-1 second delay between when the first enemy is speared and when all the rest in range are. This inconsistency makes it very hard to work with the other problems the ability/augment already has.

Edited April 10 by KitMeHarder

[Megatomus]

Please, use that dedication and energy to nerf stuff, to also fix old bugs, like this transference one that still ruins the playing experience:

 

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Megatomus said:

Please, use that dedication and energy to nerf stuff, to also fix old bugs, like this transference one that still ruins the playing experience:

 

Or excalibur umbra everlasting bug, god forbid we give excalibur players anything, no we have to ask them to install an extra mod to GET RID OF A BUG

[Coopsa]

Please remove the LoS on Dante and reduce the range instead.

[TheTundraTerror]

I wish DE would just realize that LoS doesn't work as a "balancing" measure when levels aren't actively designed with it in mind. You can't honestly expect me to believe this when you have both tiny, open maps like those in the Circuit and cramped, cluttered maps like those in with the Infested. The reason games can get away with LoS on abilities is, well, they're often PvP-focused. But ignoring that, the reason they have LoS is because they actively design their maps with such a mechanic in mind.

Edited April 10 by TheTundraTerror

[Nero.DMC]

58 minutes ago, Cortes02 said:

Man what a problem, really makes him unplayable. Oh wait, you can just play in other maps.

If you like to play in tighter tilesets, it's honestly a you problem. He doesn't work well there, doesn't mean he doesn't work in general

What if I told you that I played him on corpus spaceships, kuva fortress and laboratories instead of those?

Exactly my point thank you, this shows exactly what kind of person would defend theese changes someone that do not care if the QoL is removed, he likes getting worse stuff for no reason at all and you will only play him on the maps where he is the same as before instead of pushing for him to be good everywhere you are happy receiving the crap DE is feeding you, its mindblowing how low standart some people have, the frame is less fun but since you can avoid playing on enclosed maps (maps that worked fine before)... what a dumb notion you got there...

So why exactly do you think this was necesary on him? since you are using him on maps that he was virtually the same as before and liking those while avoiding other maps? would it not be better if i dont know he would perform the same on any map? any FoV configuration? or are you happy that some frames depends on your settings to be a certain way to perform better?... dumb takes are dumb...

Edited April 10 by Nero.DMC

[LordOfKenpo]

57 minutes ago, Cortes02 said:

Man what a problem, really makes him unplayable. Oh wait, you can just play in other maps.

 

Maps affecting how well a frame functions is just bad game design. Why shouldn't people be able to play their favorite frame on every tileset? Already some frames excel at certain mission types over others, now we have to deal with the combinatoric explosion of mission type and tileset affecting what frames we can choose on a mission?

[Phoenician]

Dante is now even more inconsistent than after LOS was implemented. He's legit worse than he's been so far.. How did this actually happen lol

Even on wide open areas I'm noticing Dark Verse and Final verse inconsistently identifying enemies as being visible despite them being OBVIOUSLY visible, on the flip side both abilities also seem to be able to randomly hit enemies totally obscured. Both effects trigger when enemies are in close proximity and also at higher distances of around 20m.

[Twilight053]

4 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

This still screws with tanky frames that have a slight bit of shields, like Wukong, Valkyr, and Grendel. The easiest fix to this would be to make either Rage or Hunter Adrenaline set your max shields and overshields to zero, turning them into shieldless frames like Inaros and Nidus. All in all though, a nice step in the right direction!

Actually in a huge favor for this. Rage and Hunter Adrenaline are both more or less duplicates of each other. Bring rage up to +45% energy but set shield/overshield to zero.

Now you have a proper sidegrade.

[tartcactus]

So, big surprise(not), Dante plays worse than he played post-nerf. On top of that, every frame they have added these "fixes" to will suffer from the same problems. Way to sink further into your self made quagmire called Loss of Sight. The way this is heading, I would not count on reaching year 12 or maybe even year 11. You are about to start hemorrhaging money. Could hve just listened to your community. Loss of Sight is exactly that in Warframe. It has never worked in this game and it never will. You can put all the makeup on that pig that you want, it will only ever be a painted up pig. Hope you admit to yourselves you have truly stepped in it this time before your player base tanks. Dont repeat the same mistake you made with Conclave. Remember that one?

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Talons ranks #4 on the best slash weapons in the game. Pretty sure they don't need arcanes but it'd be nice.

 

Also, keep LoS and employ it on all abilities. The game was boring when we could nuke everything through walls. It hasn't been fun to play in squads in years, even if I was the one nuking.

Edited April 10 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[DanteTheHawk]

Yeah it seems like they are attached to keeping LOS but only on Dante. Can we get that same energy with Protea's 1 and Saryn's 4? Could we get Dante with 22m range and no LOS. Could we get Rebb shouting "Nerfs for the Nerf god" when they nerf something that we love? 

Also please nerf Caliban. 

[captn_Pat]

Dante feels like a weapon platform now, buff buff, shoot S#&amp;&#036;. It feels my kpm goes down everytime i use his tragedy, the amount of mobs you can hit with it is not worth the energy and finger cramps>< the tooltip says 70m range, my gut tells me more like 20 or so. Doesnt feel right, a mage that buffs his gun. Melee influence innodem was killing way faster than his 334 spam also wich is wack, dont like it.

[tartcactus]

Hello, Tenno! Welcome to Nerfframe!!!

[Nero.DMC]

4 minutes ago, captn_Pat said:

Dante feels like a weapon platform now, buff buff, shoot S#&amp;&#036;. It feels my kpm goes down everytime i use his tragedy, the amount of mobs you can hit with it is not worth the energy and finger cramps>< the tooltip says 70m range, my gut tells me more like 20 or so. Doesnt feel right, a mage that buffs his gun. Melee influence innodem was killing way faster than his 334 spam also wich is wack, dont like it.

and we have like 30 frames that are weapon platforms already...  and weapons have always been stronger than dante to begin with wich makes this whole thing even more dumb

[Stajo98]

"Its Nerf, or nothing!" - DE 

[Aerophic]

I have been running into a bug where Acolytes stop spawning in Survival Omnia Fissures at 100 minutes in, didn't see this one get addressed anywhere so wanted to put this here hoping for a fix.

Edit: Forgot to mention that this was on the Lua nodes only, haven't tested Murmur out yet though.

Edited April 11 by Aerophic

[tartcactus]

You may have eaten at Nothing But Noodles, but here at DE, you will get Nothing But Nerfs!!

[Alt3rcode]

The changes were good for frames, yes, but it still fails to adress Dante's issue with double LoS application abilities (One check on Dark Verse, one check on Tragedy), essentially nerfing his damage. Having to Search for the enemies and find a specific position where enemies are all visible so you can detonate the slashes you had LoS to apply is too much.

[LysanderasD]

This issue with Dante remains unaddressed and unresolved.

The reply I received on that thread, while well-meaning, did not seem to actually parse what the issue at hand was. For clarity:

When Dante uses a melee attack (or any melee-adjacent action, like slide kicks, finishers, mercies, and bullet jumps) that deals damage to an enemy, any Overguard on Dante's companion that came specifically from Light Verse and/or Triumph is erased.

This occurs even when there's no other source of Overguard in play (which is to say, that e.g., Pack Leader et all are not at fault)

Edited April 11 by LysanderasD
Added clarity.

[Lyurvig]

Thank you! 

[Skioldus]

Thank you for the positive progress with LoS updates, for they are much appreciated. As I could not find (or missed) among the update and all the comments, a major factor that could significantly benefit is Caliban's first ability, Razor Gyre.

For a long time, one of the banes for using this ability and how it was and is broken (in a bad way) is that the current LOS checks based on a single point from either the Warframe or ground base (I do not know exactly but evidence over years suggests something like this). Therefore, the actual problem occurs when you hold or vacuum items in this form: almost every time this occurs, the objects block the damage line and produce either irregular/inconsistent or completely blocked damage potential to enemies, even enemies within point-blank range of Caliban. As a Caliban user with him being one of my top 3 most used (and favorite) frames in the past couple years--and for anyone using Caliban--this has been a long-term concern that has affected how Razor Gyre is effectively uses or enjoyed as it hinders it's intended functioning, expected functioning, and damage potential.

Again, if this is already fixed or in the works, disregard this post. But otherwise, I ask if this could be visited as I believe it would be an excellent incorporation to the Line-of-Sight Quality-of-Life improvement collective! And for any Caliban enthusiasts, I invite you to support this post if you so desire.

Additionally, if this suggestion should be posted in a more appropriate forum section based on the information on the original update post, "As written directly above, we are not done with improving LoS and will continue to assess where further improvements can be made. New reports related to LoS will be investigated for future Hotfixes/Updates. Thank you, Tenno!", please let me know. Thank you!

[FaraTenno]

No Tragedy LoS removal, or even an explanation as to why they're so damned adamant on keeping it. After almost a full week of this outcry?

Our voices are being ignored. I'm done wasting my time.

[Hera.Ci]

Quote

NOTE: Warframes that grant themselves Overguard, like Kullervo or Rhino, will not be able to trigger Rage and Hunter Adrenaline from their own Overguard.

This feels completely fair. Between status immunity and damage gating, Overguard is powerful enough that you absolutely should not also get free energy alongside it just from equipping Rage and standing still.

Quote

This allows shield-less Warframes, such as Inaros and Nidus, to be able to regenerate Energy via these Mods when they would have previously been blocked by Overguard granted by allies.

This does not :( what did Oberon ever do to you? Or Chroma? There are plenty of frames that (up until now) build around the expectation of having their shields down most of the time; why should Overguard from a squadmate lock them out of that?

The first condition seems sufficient to prevent 99% of possible abuse of the mechanic. The second condition just leaves 48 of the 50 Warframes that can't generate their own Overguard out of luck based on random matchmaking. Can we at least try out removing the no-shields condition?