Another reason LoS feels bad that people aren't mentioning

[Mr.Holyroller]

12 minutes ago, Digital_Malz said:

I like the way people disregard opposing opinions calling others toxic. Yeah, bro, you’re the guy, you’re good, you’re perfect. Why do you waste time with inferior toxic people?

I like how you just outed yourself by drawing to conclusions.
There's plenty of healthy discussion to be had between why a frame should/shouldnt be buffed or why LoS should/shouldnt exist.

Toxicity is just taking jabs at the devs or jabs at players who think differently than you or enjoy different content than you

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

On 2024-04-16 at 7:14 PM, quxier said:

Shadow blocks LoS check? That's interesting.

I've been playing it for some time. I've not seen major issues with him yet. I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt. It may be not perfect but big part of what I see is at least damaged.

I still have to play him where he is (near) worthless.

For the shadows part I dont know what was blocking dark verse and tragedy there was literally nothing there but shadows and rays of light 

Iv played him as well hes not unplayable or anything like that but he dos still need a bit of tweaking and changes he's still good but I think he would be a bit better without los but if they don't lose los it only needs a bit of tweaking to be good 

[quxier]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

For the shadows part I dont know what was blocking dark verse and tragedy there was literally nothing there but shadows and rays of light 

Iv played him as well hes not unplayable or anything like that but he dos still need a bit of tweaking and changes he's still good but I think he would be a bit better without los but if they don't lose los it only needs a bit of tweaking to be good 

Not sure if all but Dark verse doesn't seems to have LoS at all. I don't count all enemies but it goes through walls

[Bizzo50]

16 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I like how you just outed yourself by drawing to conclusions.
There's plenty of healthy discussion to be had between why a frame should/shouldnt be buffed or why LoS should/shouldnt exist.

Toxicity is just taking jabs at the devs or jabs at players who think differently than you or enjoy different content than you

Is it ok to disagree and hate a mechanic that DE has NEVER ben able to implement well? A mechanic that really has no place in the game and active makes frames less fun to play? Just wondering.

[Mr.Holyroller]

57 minutes ago, Bizzo50 said:

Is it ok to disagree and hate a mechanic that DE has NEVER ben able to implement well? A mechanic that really has no place in the game and active makes frames less fun to play? Just wondering.

You can disagree with it but I wouldn't call line of sight something that's "poorly implemented". Improving line of sight is never going to be a finished product. It's something they continue to improve and fix to weed out inconsistencies and errors

Fun is completely subjective and along with that, there's a fine line between a Warframe being so strong that it's fun for most people and so strong that it's boring and power creeps the rest of the roster

Edited April 19 by Mr.Holyroller

[Bizzo50]

5 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

You can disagree with it but I wouldn't call line of sight something that's "poorly implemented". Improving line of sight is never going to be a finished product. It's something they continue to improve and fix to weed out inconsistencies and errors

Fun is completely subjective and along with that, there's a fine line between a Warframe being so strong that it's fun for most people and so strong that it's boring and power creeps the rest of the roster

So you're saying LoS is/was implemented well? What game are you playing?

 

And by the way, saying fun is subjective (which I agree is true) and then saying in the same breath that Dante was boring pre-nerf (which is also totally subjective) doesn't make a ton of sense. Make up your mind. 

[Karyst]

On 2024-04-13 at 6:03 AM, OnestarMike said:

This is the core reasoning I’ve said across the forums. 

I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. 

No amount of LoS fixes will ever make Dante feel like he’s suppose to. It has to be removed or this frame will fall into obscurity because people will get too frustrated when their combo finisher fails on a regular basis. If tragedy was a one click button with no prior setup and straight damage, there would be a solid reason to keep it on LoS. But that isn’t the case and that’s not how DE designed it to be.

It’s a real shame to see what was a perfect frame release punished by issues outside of Dante’s controls, and left this massive thorn in his side

I agree that they don't play him and they are in the group that complained about Dante being disruptive on release. Their arguement is always that he had 80m nuke that would work on enemies primed by other than him and we continue to repeat like parrots, that Los on tragedy makes him clunky for reasons mentioned countless time by now.

 

On 2024-04-13 at 5:20 AM, Intotsu said:

Hello to all,
Forgive me for the somewhat provocative title, but I'm one of the players who also played Dante on release, loved him, saw the rapid nerfing, hated it (but mostly the LoS addition), and has been following the many, many  (MANY) discussions on this topic.

The reason I bring up this title is that, despite the fact that I've been following this discussion for a while, I haven't seen this particular part of the Line of Sight addition that makes it feel particularly bad, which is the following combination of things.

• Warframe is a (highly) mobility focused game
• Despite being slow, Dante is a Mage themed warframe designed with the above in mind.

This, to my mind, is the particular difficulty of adding line of sight to the mix when it comes to Dante. Like most warframes with abilities, Dante is designed to use his abilities on the move. And in nearly all cases they work well for use on the move.
 

1. Noctua is a weapon, and all weapons are designed to be used on the move.
2. Light verse applied to all allies linked by affinity to you (Same with Triumph) making it more reliant on proximity than movement.
3. Dark verse applies to essentially the enemies you're looking at, meaning if you miss you need to change your aim and cast again.
4. Pageflight relies on personal proximity since the birds always fly near you and Wordwarden functions with affinity range on casting again.

This of course leaves Tragedy as the odd one out. Because for Tragedy, being a primary damage dealing ability that triggers off of damaging status effects, movement can mess up things royally when Line of sight is involved.

One of the best aspects of this game is the movement system. Were it up to me as a designer, I would make the continued use of the parkour system the primary means of evading damage across the board as it is the most fun aspect of the system and also makes the most sense in my head. That being said, one cool thing to do when you play any warframe is casting/shooting attacking on the fly with an airglide to deal damage to enemies and follow it it up to continue moving as you attack enemies continuously, regardless of how you do it.

With Dante, doing the priming with other spells/attacks and then casting a devastating Tragedy was cool because, regardless of position, as long as you primed enough enemies in preparation, you didn't have to worry about making sure you were in a prime position to deal damage, only that you had done the preparation.

Now, was this insane in how fast you could clear things when not at a high level? absolutely. I would never have put base damage on something that hit enemies as far as you could with Dante (I put Stretch on him so... his already wide range became gigantic), or at most it would be 1 damage so i could use it to find out enemy positions or something. But in principle it works better that way.

However, adding Line of Sight makes positioning important, yes, but not in a way that can be easily quantified. LoS is the only reason I have had any issues with Plunder from the new and improved Hydroid for example. I cant tell you how many times I tried to either renew or set up a pillage armor boost only for it to be something as mediocre as 200 armor because, despite being surrounded by enemies, only a few of them had their armor stolen due to either geometry or, worse, my model being slightly too low to target them. The better LoS should improve this (one can hope, but it kind of emphasizes the point. For a LoS ability which originates around your character, if it is a single burst effect you want to be:

• In a set position for the burst (so you want to stop your momentum temporarily)
• that is ideal (not impeded by the setting or geometry)

If a LoS ability is omnidirectional, you can't fully take into consideration the structures around you, especially while moving, to determine the most effective location to cast it. Not easily, not in a game like Warframe which encourages movement.

This is the primary reason why LoS feels so bad on Dante. As a caster-frame with a Mage theme, his abilities are emphasized and require a multi-step process. Making the payoff for that process uncertain due to elements of the game that are both fundamental and encouraged feels discouraging. To this end, I add my vote to the following suggested change in this forum: DE, please reduce the base damage of Tragedy to 0 or 1 (for scouting purposes) and remove the Line of Sight requirement.

 

(P.S: I know this discussion may be obvious, I just haven't seen it directly talked about as a reason for the discomfort with the LoS change)

This is correct, and I want to add, that what happens when you cast dark verse in front of you then turn 180 cast it second time and then cast Tragedy? Did the defenders of Los on tragedy even considered solo players or should we just go back to camping sewers in void? 

 

22 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

You can disagree with it but I wouldn't call line of sight something that's "poorly implemented". Improving line of sight is never going to be a finished product. It's something they continue to improve and fix to weed out inconsistencies and errors

Fun is completely subjective and along with that, there's a fine line between a Warframe being so strong that it's fun for most people and so strong that it's boring and power creeps the rest of the roster

To say that Los is never going to be a finished product is truly a statement.

[Bizzo50]

55 minutes ago, Karyst said:

To say that Los is never going to be a finished product is truly a statement.

Aint it amazing? Makes and then destroys his own point in one sentence.

[Mr.Holyroller]

16 hours ago, Karyst said:

To say that Los is never going to be a finished product is truly a statement.

What is that suppsed to mean? its true, whenever they add new abilities, tilesets or certain enemies there's always going to be new instances where LoS isnt working properly. 
 

 

16 hours ago, Bizzo50 said:

So you're saying LoS is/was implemented well? What game are you playing?

 

And by the way, saying fun is subjective (which I agree is true) and then saying in the same breath that Dante was boring pre-nerf (which is also totally subjective) doesn't make a ton of sense. Make up your mind. 

Im playing warframe. i've never had major issues with LoS in this game after 3k hours and being LR4.
I would love to know what your reference frame for good LoS in a 3d game similar to warfame or mmorpgs in general is.

I didnt say Dante was boring. I'm saying that when frames are way too good at what they do, and they can fulfill multiple roles, they run the risk of being called boring by the community. It also creates a separate issue where everyone wants XYZ frame to be just as strong as that frame.

I don't know if you're just choosing not to read or you're only trying to interpret what im saying in a way that benefits you

[rOberon42]

2 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Im playing warframe. i've never had major issues with LoS in this game after 3k hours and being LR4.
I would love to know what your reference frame for good LoS in a 3d game similar to warfame or mmorpgs in general is.

I didnt say Dante was boring. I'm saying that when frames are way too good at what they do, and they can fulfill multiple roles, they run the risk of being called boring by the community. It also creates a separate issue where everyone wants XYZ frame to be just as strong as that frame.

I don't know if you're just choosing not to read or you're only trying to interpret what im saying in a way that benefits you

You have to admit that for the people running that funny range build; It will feel bad not being able to hit behind wall and the next room. I think DE is guilty of releasing such overpowered frame and try to bring down the power level and then poorly handling the nerfing situation as whole. If some of the people here did not complain, we would have had a worse Dante with a iffy LOS system. But since then, we actually improved the LOS system for many frames since everyone kicked up a storm. 

But I strongly disagree with people saying that Dante is useless or crap tier frame. I would agree that it may not fit that play style anymore. But Dante in its pre-nerf state was going to be not healthy for the game in long run.

Edited April 20 by rOberon42

[Bizzo50]

2 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Im playing warframe. i've never had major issues with LoS in this game after 3k hours and being LR4.
I would love to know what your reference frame for good LoS in a 3d game similar to warfame or mmorpgs in general is.

I didnt say Dante was boring. I'm saying that when frames are way too good at what they do, and they can fulfill multiple roles, they run the risk of being called boring by the community. It also creates a separate issue where everyone wants XYZ frame to be just as strong as that frame.

I don't know if you're just choosing not to read or you're only trying to interpret what im saying in a way that benefits you

I mean, you kinda did say he was boring. "they run the risk of being called boring" is nowhere near what you actually said. If you want me to understand you, maybe be clear and say what you mean. And I don't know how to interpret what your saying other than by taking it at face value, which evidently I'm not supposed to do I guess?

 

And bro you keep making my point for me that LoS is a terrible mechanic. You're right, there isn't a great implementation in other games, BECAUSE IT'S TERRIBLE.

 

Get off your high horse.

[Karyst]

7 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

What is that suppsed to mean? its true, whenever they add new abilities, tilesets or certain enemies there's always going to be new instances where LoS isnt working properly. 
 

It means that it's not the best solution from the available solutions 

[NemiTheNem]

Dante...I no longer feel cheated about him, but LoS was a bad call.

I build for Noctua now, 4 tau forged topaz shards, he wrecks sp necramech demolishers, etc.

But even then, I still get an almost 10x multiplier on tragedy.

Energy, once I get going properly, is not a problem (it can take a bit to get to that point though), I'm not buildin for his 4, and the multiplier is still that high.

That's what they shpuld.have nerf'd.

[Gaxxian]

hace 48 minutos, NemiTheNem dijo:

Dante...I no longer feel cheated about him, but LoS was a bad call.

I build for Noctua now, 4 tau forged topaz shards, he wrecks sp necramech demolishers, etc.

But even then, I still get an almost 10x multiplier on tragedy.

Energy, once I get going properly, is not a problem (it can take a bit to get to that point though), I'm not buildin for his 4, and the multiplier is still that high.

That's what they shpuld.have nerf'd.

Yes, he is a good as a weapon platform AKA a trash caster.

[(PSN)Thanatos-Prime]

On 2024-04-19 at 11:53 PM, Mr.Holyroller said:

What is that suppsed to mean? its true, whenever they add new abilities, tilesets or certain enemies there's always going to be new instances where LoS isn't working properly 

So lemme get this right.

Your offering that LoS is fine and dandy DESPITE saying in the very same point IT WILL NEVER WORK CONSISTENTLY. Your joking. You have to be. 

Your literally ok, with DE choosing to use a system that by default will always suck, need to be babysat with every addition and likely never will properly. Forget Dante, what kind of person advocates for this type of logic? If you have a problem you fix it permanently. LOS as a system has and will never work. So the logical thing to do is phase it out in favor of mechanics that don't care what tile, mission, team comp. Frame, FOV, lighting Whatever you have set to on. 

I'll make this so very easy. 

Your boss at work tells you to update the core code on the company website he gives you 2 options. 

A. A fragmented but widely liked code by the bosses. It's crap, causes problems, will likely force the site to glitch for random users and will not function for a handful of popular web browsers. You'll have to sit on it constantly to head off problems with every new feature added 

B. A simple but likely less popular code that's stable, well liked by other developers, can be adjusted easily, won't cause conflicts with e commerce platforms, and will not irk your customers, by default its modular so you can freely add or change website options and not have to remodel code structure. 

The best option is B, it's less Strife, will always work consistently and won't cause any major bugs. 

Nobody wants to buy a car with a known issue that "sometimes affects drivers" who would take that gamble? Buy a car without that issue and reliability. Same crap here. Why must we settle fir "it usually works, sometimes, maybe, only if the moon is just so and the stars are in this pattern"  when what any real company should want is just "Fixed it, we're good moving on"  if you can't say your moving on? It is not fixed. 

 

[Digital_Malz]

On 2024-04-21 at 12:33 PM, (PSN)Thanatos-Prime said:

-snip-

 

+100000000…

[Nero.DMC]

On 2024-04-21 at 12:33 PM, (PSN)Thanatos-Prime said:

-snip-

 

can i like this 100 times? 
What makes me super sad is DE pick A, then noticed the problems that A had and they kept A...

[(PSN)Thanatos-Prime]

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

can i like this 100 times? 
What makes me super sad is DE pick A, then noticed the problems that A had and they kept A...

The irksome aspect is not only did they pick A. 

They picked A-> major issues arose -> they attempted to FIX by breaking it further and making us less consistent in many cases-> were told to fix it by the community->  instead of swapping to B they TRIPLE DOWN and proceed to metaphorically tell their boss "sir I know the codes crap, I didn't do my job, and it's all garbage, but you see YOUR THE PROBLEM fir not seeing my genius in my choice of A" 

Now any real boss would fired that employee so fast they got whiplash. Why? 

Now a more proper metaphor would likely be the absolute reversal of my point above. The boss tells the code guys to use A-> code team warns him it's not gonna work, gives alternate fixes-> boss IGNORES his employees dies it anyway-> card tower crashes major issues abound-> code team returns with more fixes which the boss ignores, triples down and proceeds to blame the customers for using "non supportive" language of his crap decision while gaslighting the code team  as the real problem because they're not buying the bs and insisting on a better standard. 

One of my mates and I popped into the simulacrum last night, he's a fervent DE boot licker, I told him fine let's see in real time how S#&$ Dante is. 

We started with over guard. He's sitting at 210 power, took him 4 FULL ROTATIONS of triumph before we reached his cap. He happy, says it's balanced. OK I pop out my stynax, 210 power, decent duration. I pop my 4 on the grouped enemies and in 1 CAST we hit the cap. Took 1/3 the time, I output dps and og, and took less then a quarter of the energy he spent. He claims "so I'm a support frame it's fair, you need an augment to do that" o.o um, it's like 9 points, add a forma it's a near mandatory mod anyway, not really sacrificing much chief. But ok. I pull out my rhino, use my combo and pop iron skin. Again 1/2 the energy and a bit more setup I'm at like 100k og. But he's still not convinced "rhino can't remember like Dante can, you need to cycle the full combo, I can cast triumph once and your good" o.o  oook. I pull out Rev hit 1 button and the whole teams effectively God mode. His reply? " well you need an augment so your giving up mod space to do that" o.o rly dude. 

Ok fine DPS. His argument fell apart the moment dark verse was hitting enemy targets that he could not see, legit they were behind a pillar, standing next to and behind him my sniper scope could not see them. Yet, in defiance of all logic the game agreed he has LoS. But it he moved literally 2 inches to the left suddenly he fails the line check? He could not see them before, I moved to the enemy and checked if I could see his frame, nope. No los there. So it hits when it should fail, move 2 inches and obstruct more vision and now it fails? Huh? What could he see the air particles moving from their breathing and that passed los? Seriously. Next Tragedy, he primes, in full view it hits, ok. He shifts to a top down look, it hits half targets the other half are mysteriously blocked by, something. He spends 4 minutes micro managing his camera to get the proper angle then nukes. OK, that's working as intended right? Next he dips to a lower level, dark verse again mysteriously hits for God knows what reason, tragedy misses even though he can sight the heads of several enemies it misses all of em. O.o hello? He could see them, soo? His reply "it's playable I just need to be active keep my foes on screen" o.o ok.

I jack the lvl up to steel path, Archon hunt so what 150 about 170 iirc, turn on the AI and tell him, "OK sunshine, get to it." I then got a joyful chuckle out if watching him die REPEATEDLY  as his OG was shredded near instantly, his "nuke" did Jack all if it even hit - which 80% of the time it didn't judging by his screams of "WTF I CAN SEE HIM WHY DIDNT IT DETONATE!"- and him lying dead giving up 3 minutes of struggle later. I proceeded to reset, bring out my stynax, nuked em all and kept my og up with effort, Rev, unkillable stood and just soaked dmg. Brought out my Gauss and proceeded to speed nuke. Clap clap sunder dead. 30 minutes later I finally got a "OK, you know what? this feels horrible, I can't get anywhere, can't play the game cause I'm dead or need to spend 3 minutes refilling my og, this sucks" 

I admit, I got great satisfaction when he dumped Dante and started building Gauss prime. 

Let me close and reiterate. 

Our issue is not Dante alone, he was gutted he's dead and worthless. Our issue is that DE continues to choose the less optimal solutions fir almost every problem, and test solution usually destroys fun. Like why did you even need to touch the Arca? I never saw anyone use that? Let em have some damn fun. Our issue is that DE continues to act like the fun police and nerf anything that makes us feel strong into uselessness. This is a wholly PcE game, who gives a flying goose what our kills per minute are? Or how fast we can clear steel path? These are meaningless goal posts that only hurt one particular party, NOBODY. How is it bad that we have a few strong frames? Your "endgame" is a bloated mess of shoddy fun killer gimmick units like nullifiers, eximus overguard crap and insta killer bullets sponges. The ideology that any of that nonsense makes fir a compelling end game grind is, well laughable. DE, please we don't enjoy your "random loadout" difficulty crap, that's not making things challenging, specially since you know most of us won't ever use 90% of the garbage frames and gear in the arsenal. Forcing players to "try new stuff" is not gonna achieve anything. 

What you should be doing? Honestly? 

1. Refresh your frames. Take a cert patch or 3 and let Pablo cook. Look at all the old legacy frames ALL and refresh em, rework kits or abilities, bring everything into a power standard where mid steel path is workable, WITHOUT the Uber elite gear like prime frames, mods. Kuva gear, tenet gear etc. 

2. Refresh the weapons. Same a 1, take some time, rebalance, upgrade and scale power up! Give some of the older gear new traits or special talents to make using them INTERESTING, give us a reason to take another look at old gear. 

3. Stop being afraid of power. Be honest, you've power crept this game to heck already, we all know it, if you only need 1 gun and your done for most content you have larger issues then the power fantasy. Players should be able to easy clear base starchart, start encountering challenges on low steel path, and be having enjoyable slug fests in high endgame stuff where we can slug it out with stronger enemies. If your gonna scale the enemy to 200% you NEED TO LOOK AT OUR POWER SCALE and ho "OK can they reasonably with a random loadout, achieve a fulfilling victory?"