Allow Umbra polarities to exist side-by-side with regular polarities on the same slot.

[Aerophobius]

Quoting myself from a different topic, to make sure this doesn't get lost behind a suggestion-topic that imo would take things too far:

On 2024-01-10 at 8:32 PM, Aerophobius said:

Here is my suggestion:
Allow Umbra Forma to add the Umbra polarity to already polarised slots instead of overwriting it. (And allow regular Forma to polarise slots without overwriting an existing Umbra polarity.)
That way Umbra polarities don't block slots from being used for other mods, making those slots future-content-proof, keeping rarities intact, and all that without making modding/configs more complicated.

And;  

On 2024-04-11 at 11:55 AM, Aerophobius said:

Just wanted to return to this topic because of Nidus' new augment. This is another of those instances where; on some builds you want the Umbra polarity and on others you don't. The biggest issue with Umbra Forma has always been a lack of flexibility, but this lack of flexibility was offset by Umbra mods being the objectively strongest choices for a vast majority of builds. I think moving away from Umbra mods is a very good choice given how rare Umbra Forma is, but at the same time we now face the problem of the aforementioned loss of flexibility feeling like a risk rather than a trade-off. (At least for me.)
I wholeheartedly believe that the dual-polarity option for Umbra Forma would be the most reasonable approach long-term.
The question now is, should we/I open a separate topic for that suggestion, or does this suffice?

 

[Kainosh]

Yes, but why only Umbra? 

I think all polarities should exist side by side.   With limit of 3 per slot (+1 for each configuration slot bought, up to 6).   

I have a lot of frames that do not use Umbra, but still need to have Naramon, Vazarin and Zenurik in the same slot to have 3 very different builds in A, B and C.    

 

 

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Aerophobius said:

Quoting myself from a different topic, to make sure this doesn't get lost behind a suggestion-topic that imo would take things too far:

And;  

 

Best Excalibur build doesn't use Umbral mods on the Warframe anyways. Just yeet them and replace it with Adaptation, Archon Vitality, and Blind Rage. Its a far better replacement for Excalibur since health tanking is obsolete on him post Primed Redirection and shield gating rework.

I keep Umbra polarities on my Umbra so I can test builds that use those mods, but the best build I run on Prime. It uses PSF but its redundant since every variation of it uses Unairu, even ones with Melee Crescendo stat sticks.

Exalted Blade though, I use both Umbral mods on every build, whether its Heat or Toxin. Those builds use both CO and Sacrificial Pressure. The extra CC% to get it above 50% is worth it, especially considering that build uses Wrathful advance at 259% (+15% for Umbra) and full Tau violet shards. Considering you can snapshot another 770% CC with combo counter mods, its worth it. ~446% CC if my memory is correct, ~487% on heavy attacks.

[VibingCat]

8 minutes ago, Agall said:

[...] replace it with Archon Vitality [...] health tanking is obsolete post Primed Redirection and shield gating rework

🤔

[Aerophobius]

23 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Yes, but why only Umbra? 

I think all polarities should exist side by side.   With limit of 3 per slot (+1 for each configuration slot bought, up to 6).   

I have a lot of frames that do not use Umbra, but still need to have Naramon, Vazarin and Zenurik in the same slot to have 3 very different builds in A, B and C.    

In short: Because Umbra Polarity only fits 3 (or 2) Mods on Warframes (or Melee).
I haven't really encountered capacity issues myself that couldn't be solved with thorough planning tbh, so I'd be happy to see specific examples if you don't mind sharing!

 

22 hours ago, Agall said:

Best Excalibur build doesn't use Umbral mods on the Warframe anyways. Just yeet them and replace it with Adaptation, Archon Vitality, and Blind Rage. Its a far better replacement for Excalibur since health tanking is obsolete on him post Primed Redirection and shield gating rework.

I keep Umbra polarities on my Umbra so I can test builds that use those mods, but the best build I run on Prime. It uses PSF but its redundant since every variation of it uses Unairu, even ones with Melee Crescendo stat sticks.

Exalted Blade though, I use both Umbral mods on every build, whether its Heat or Toxin. Those builds use both CO and Sacrificial Pressure. The extra CC% to get it above 50% is worth it, especially considering that build uses Wrathful advance at 259% (+15% for Umbra) and full Tau violet shards. Considering you can snapshot another 770% CC with combo counter mods, its worth it. ~446% CC if my memory is correct, ~487% on heavy attacks.

I -- uhm... Are you in favor of this change or against it? (It's a bit unclear to me personally. Sorry.)

[Agall]

16 hours ago, Aerophobius said:

In short: Because Umbra Polarity only fits 3 (or 2) Mods on Warframes (or Melee).
I haven't really encountered capacity issues myself that couldn't be solved with thorough planning tbh, so I'd be happy to see specific examples if you don't mind sharing!

 

I -- uhm... Are you in favor of this change or against it? (It's a bit unclear to me personally. Sorry.)

I don't see a point in the added complexity.

Most Warframes, if you want a build of it that uses Umbral mods, then build another and add them. With Excalibur, I wouldn't use them anyways since he's better off shield gating than health tanking. That would involve yeeting the Warframe Umbral polarities off the Umbra but keeping the ones on his EB.

[Exoni_Prime]

You can fix this issue by crafting a different Warframe and adding different polarities.

Some builds need you to have different polarities dependent on what stats you spec into due to the fact that some abilities need more of a certain stat while being able to dump others. Though what you're suggesting wouldn't fix an issue at all, because how is the UI supposed to show this change; considering how much the developers have done to try and make modding easier to understand? 

[Aerophobius]

Crafting a second Warframe is a band-aid solution for people who have enough time to farm the Umbra Forma, twice the regular Forma, perhaps even two Aura Forma, the respective Frame twice, the Archon shards they want twice, and even then they can only play one of them in Duviri. (The first one they built if I'm not mistaken.) EDIT: See post below for correction.
You may have missed my mention of new and stronger Warframe mods being introduced that boost the same stats that Umbral mods are boosting. With your "fix"; as more mods get introduced that are more effective than Umbra mods, the number of required duplicate Warframes would increase steadily. I believe this is something that could use a long-term solution instead of being a "just farm more" scenario.

I don't think it's unreasonably complex for the user. (Not sure about the spaghetti monster.) You have a polarised slot: polarising with Forma overrides polarity; Polarising with Umbra forma adds "Umbra" polarity.

The UI has at least two development options: Display Umbra polarity next to regular polarity, or switch between Umbra/regular on an interval.

My proposed solution also aims to keep Umbra Forma rarities intact, while not introducing a "universal Forma".

Edited April 18 by Aerophobius

[Tiltskillet]

13 minutes ago, Aerophobius said:

. . . and even then they can only play one of them in Duviri. (The first one they built if I'm not mistaken.)

It's whichever duplicate has the most forma, random if there is a tie.

[indigo.volvoxx]

I have no idea why people are saying "just craft another warframe", like that is such a massive time and resource sink, especially when it comes to late-game. And especially primes? Sounds like a luxury being able to afford all of that, since they're saying it as if it is that simple and easy. Grind more, comrade, I guess, lol.

[Kainosh]

On 2024-04-17 at 12:05 AM, Aerophobius said:

specific examples if you don't mind sharing!

Like......If you built your, I dunno, Lanka with 5 Vs, and then you wanna have a different build that involves lots of Dashes or any other polarity mods.     The only way now is to completely reforma your Lanka and forget about old build....OR build a duplicate Lanka. 

Same with Warframes.      You have a good build with Vs Ds and Dashes. Filled to the brim. Optimized.  And now you wanna try a  3 Ability augment build, that is a foken glass cannon and relies on Voodoo dodging skills.   Requires completely different set of polarities, and will not fit without ruining your old build.  

 

If polarities could stack, i would probably even buy extra config slots.  Now i see no use for these coz i cant even fit 3 completely different builds because of polarity limits.

[ToxicCookie91]

Had a similar suggestion not too long ago, except it went a bit further. +1 on any solution to remedy this, as I'm not interested in having 2 of every frame, just to have one with and one without umbra.