Tennokai's window of opportunity

[Himerance]

Love the mechanic overall but wish I could hold the proc instead of being forced to use it within the window of opportunity.

Sometimes when it procs there is no strong enemies nearby to use it on and using it on weaker ones, who I can kill just as easily with a normal attack, makes it feel worthless.

Secondly, I can't help feeling uneasy when I'm constantly afraid of using the heavy attack too late, which would lead to the loss of all my combo points.

I think this change would make for a more pleasant and fun experience.

Edit: If ramping up combo points wouldn't take as long as now I probably wouldn't mind tennokai being as is.

Edited April 25 by Himerance

[Aruquae]

It’s already quite forgiving no? 
I would suggest changing the window to be less random, more responsive to certain complex combos (with a hint of random so you don’t have to execute it)

It’s annoying to constantly be hitting with combos and never getting the tennokai…

One thing they definitely do need to add however, is innate Tennokai without it being locked behind a few mods

[Himerance]

3 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

It’s already quite forgiving no? 
I would suggest changing the window to be less random, more responsive to certain complex combos (with a hint of random so you don’t have to execute it)

It’s annoying to constantly be hitting with combos and never getting the tennokai…

One thing they definitely do need to add however, is innate Tennokai without it being locked behind a few mods

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Discipline's_Merit

[Aruquae]

4 minutes ago, Himerance said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Discipline's_Merit

True true

I love using discipline’s merit, but… all the others still have a chance 

And sadly, I was never the one to win my 50% chance. Skill issue, I know I know :p

[Zakkhar]

I actually prefer Opportunity's Reach | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom on majority of my frames because of this (and range is not too shabby either). I sometimes get Tennokai procs back to back.

Edited April 24 by Zakkhar

[16Bitman]

1 hour ago, Himerance said:

Secondly, I can't help feeling uneasy when I'm constantly afraid of using the heavy attack too late, which would lead to the loss of all my combo points.

You can cancel the heavy attack by rolling before the attack animation finishes.

[trst]

Needing to use it within a set window is sort of the entire point of the system. Since right before it was added they made it where you can reduce the entire melee system to holding 1-2 inputs. With that if they did add a Kai mod that made it not expire I'd imagine it'd be at the cost of most of the bonus which just makes it a regular heavy attack with conditional speed/combo efficiency.

Just use Discipline's Merit or Opportunity's Reach and either get good at counting hits or using slide heavies.

[Lord_Drod]

I mean why bother with disciplines merit or wanting a hold for it.  That makes no sense.  If there's no one around stop attacking...you won't keep your combo without naramon or combo duration.

That mod gives you tennoki every 4 hits so you can afford to miss it.  If you are running some combo duration, you can't wait 4 hits?

Opportunities reach is best anyway and it gives you a 4s plus massive range.

[UnstarPrime]

My only complaint about the proc window is that it can be hard to do a Heavy Slam with it; heavy attacks interrupt your current action, but jumping requires the action to "finish" to a certain point, so depending on the duration of the specific attack that procced Tennokai, it can at times be impossible to pull off.  Discipline's Merit can make the proc predictable which helps with this, or Opportunity's Reach lengthens the window so that you'll always have time to do a Heavy Slam, though it can often still feel like a tight squeeze.

Luckily, there's overall very little reason to perform Heavy Slams in the game, so I would file this as a "genuine but minor complaint".

[PollexMessier]

I feel like it's a little bit too long sometimes.

But I feel like the combo system as a whole needs innate combo decay, heavy attack efficiency, and like double the default time limit. Or just building combo needs to be A LOT faster. like 5 points per multiplier instead of 20. Cus losing your entire combo to a miss-input, your team not letting you get hits on enemies, or enemies just not spawning close enough to you to get a hit off in time to save your combo is really annoying, and just not fun.

The combo system is unreasonably punishing. And needing to take up a mod slot or two and an entire focus school, or be restricted to a few specific incarnon weapons that do something to make combo much more reliable, to make the system feel playable is ridiculous.

Edited April 24 by PollexMessier

[Cram_Duahcim]

It's already extremely forgiving.....

[Himerance]

51 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I feel like it's a little bit too long sometimes.

But I feel like the combo system as a whole needs innate combo decay, heavy attack efficiency, and like double the default time limit. Or just building combo needs to be A LOT faster. like 5 points per multiplier instead of 20. Cus losing your entire combo to a miss-input, your team not letting you get hits on enemies, or enemies just not spawning close enough to you to get a hit off in time to save your combo is really annoying, and just not fun.

The combo system is unreasonably punishing. And needing to take up a mod slot or two and an entire focus school, or be restricted to a few specific incarnon weapons that do something to to make combo much more reliable, to make the system feel playable is ridiculous.

Agree with everything you typed. If I could get combo points faster I probably wouldn't even mind tennokai being the way it is. But right now, when I use a heavy attack too late (outside the window of opportunity) and lose all my combo points, it feels really bad. I try to use the heavy attack on harder to kill enemies and sometimes I don't make it in time.

If someone is just mashing buttons and uses the heavy attack without thought or care, then the mechanic is forgiving enough. As someone pointed out.

I'm repeating myself but some posts here give me the impression people aren't even reading.

Edited April 24 by Himerance

[Lord_Drod]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

Luckily, there's overall very little reason to perform Heavy Slams in the game, so I would file this as a "genuine but minor complaint".

Heavy slams are pretty strong now, but it doesn't really work that well with tennokai since you build combo on the ground.  I'm sure they are amazing with crescendo and a pure heavy build where you don't do tennoki.  Also, the slam set mods.  Maybe you build combo by blocking though with a slam setup.

 

11 minutes ago, Himerance said:

Agree with everything you typed. If I could get combo points faster I probably wouldn't even mind tennokai being the way it is. But right now, when I use a heavy attack too late (outside the window of opportunity) and lose all my combo points, it feels really bad. I try to use the heavy attack on harder to kill enemies and sometimes I don't make it in time.

If someone is just mashing buttons and uses the heavy attack without thought or care, then the mechanic is forgiving enough. As someone pointed out.

I'm repeating myself but some posts here give me the impression people aren't even reading.

I don't really see an issue with occasionally missing the tennokai window and losing all your combo.  I mostly use melee to take out the rogue eximus necramechs in deep archimedea and I'm sure I missed the window sometimes, but it is pretty hard to do that with opportunities reach on.  You have multiple solutions to your issue already, opportunities reach, heavy attack efficiency sources, combo count sources, and just using a melee that has high attack speed.

[Zahnrad]

My only wish would be to make Tennokai an innate part of Melee weapons then just have mods that give it additional effects.

I'm not a huge lover of Melee weapons in Warframe, but Tennokai finally made Melee satisfying to use.

[Himerance]

28 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

I mostly use melee to take out the rogue eximus necramechs in deep archimedea and I'm sure I missed the window sometimes, but it is pretty hard to do that with opportunities reach on.

Yes, it is pretty hard to miss a window of opportunity while attacking the same enemy and not switching target. Very insightful, thank you.

Edited April 24 by Himerance

[Lord_Drod]

50 minutes ago, Himerance said:

Yes, it is pretty hard to miss a window of opportunity while attacking the same enemy and not switching target. Very insightful, thank you.

 

10 hours ago, Himerance said:

Sometimes when it procs there is no strong enemies nearby to use it on and using it on weaker ones, who I can kill just as easily with a normal attack, makes it feel worthless.

So it comes up around weaker enemies, and you hit it within the range or ignore it and use regular attacks, then see a stronger enemy 10 seconds later and have to wait for it to come up again.  Whats the problem?  You're literally using the one that comes up every 4 hits.

Opportunities reach lasts 4 seconds long while adding 3m, so you're more than 3m and 4s away from another tanky enemy and want it to be instantly available on sight with zero penalty for missing the window?  Not to mention you only need it on strong enemies, but not enemies strong enough where you're using it on only one enemy for a while apparently.  You have a 55% chance of it coming up after 5 hits anyway, without disciplines merit, 80% after 10.

If you're regularly missing the window, then I guess it's an issue.

[PollexMessier]

2 hours ago, Himerance said:

Agree with everything you typed. If I could get combo points faster I probably wouldn't even mind tennokai being the way it is. But right now, when I use a heavy attack too late (outside the window of opportunity) and lose all my combo points, it feels really bad. I try to use the heavy attack on harder to kill enemies and sometimes I don't make it in time.

If someone is just mashing buttons and uses the heavy attack without thought or care, then the mechanic is forgiving enough. As someone pointed out.

I'm repeating myself but some posts here give me the impression people aren't even reading.

Not to mention the punishing combo timer and complete loss of multiplier when it runs out severely discourages interplay between mele and guns, and kinda pushes you into using just one or the other. Unless you use weapons and builds specifically catered to doing this, which usually harms their effectiveness as individual weapons, and most weapons catered to this are killed by having a pseudo-exalted ability. Which all just feels really bad. What's the point in having 3 weapons equipped if trying to use all of them is outright detrimental?

All this crap is why Incarnon dual Icor is currently my favorite mele in the game. It builds combo so fast I often cap it out on a single enemy. I just don't even have to worry about it. losing all my combo doesn't feel punishing and bad when I can just get it all back by mauling one or two enemies, instead of 3 whole rooms of enemies. Which is how the whole system should feel and not just one weapon imo.

I think it would be cool if every weapon had their own unique gimmicks to build combo like Dual Icor does. Instead of just homogeneously making the whole system more forgiving, so it's more engaging overall. But that would be a lot more work to do. And knowing DE, they would only do this with newly released weapons and leave older ones in the dust if they went this rout.

Mele crescendo of course makes all of this a lot better. But the build up time kinda sucks. Thankfully the new finisher indicators make actually doing finishers way easier and more consistent. But, it still forces you to use up an upgrade slot on your weapon to fix a problem with the system. Not that we have many good mele arcanes yet anyways to be fair.

[Himerance]

52 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

want it to be instantly available on sight with zero penalty for missing the window?

No. What I would like is for tennokai to have a chance to proc (like now) and not time out until I use a heavy attack.

52 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

Not to mention you only need it on strong enemies, but not enemies strong enough where you're using it on only one enemy for a while apparently.

I never said that. I simply described a situation in which the mechanic becomes a problem. I'm aware that in some situations it does not.

Do give yourself more time to read, especially when you're struggling with the language.

Edited April 24 by Himerance

[Himerance]

45 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Not to mention the punishing combo timer and complete loss of multiplier when it runs out severely discourages interplay between mele and guns, and kinda pushes you into using just one or the other. Unless you use weapons and builds specifically catered to doing this, which usually harms their effectiveness as individual weapons, and most weapons catered to this are killed by having a pseudo-exalted ability. Which all just feels really bad. What's the point in having 3 weapons equipped if trying to use all of them is outright detrimental?

All this crap is why Incarnon dual Icor is currently my favorite mele in the game. It builds combo so fast I often cap it out on a single enemy. I just don't even have to worry about it. losing all my combo doesn't feel punishing and bad when I can just get it all back by mauling one or two enemies, instead of 3 whole rooms of enemies. Which is how the whole system should feel and not just one weapon imo.

I think it would be cool if every weapon had their own unique gimmicks to build combo like Dual Icor does. Instead of just homogeneously making the whole system more forgiving, so it's more engaging overall. But that would be a lot more work to do. And knowing DE, they would only do this with newly released weapons and leave older ones in the dust if they went this rout.

Mele crescendo of course makes all of this a lot better. But the build up time kinda sucks. Thankfully the new finisher indicators make actually doing finishers way easier and more consistent. But, it still forces you to use up an upgrade slot on your weapon to fix a problem with the system. Not that we have many good mele arcanes yet anyways to be fair.

I'm definitely going to look into dual ichor incarnon, I had no idea. I always hated how long it takes to ramp up combo points. Thanks.

Edit: The genesis for it is in the rotation right now, #*!% yea!

Edited April 24 by Himerance

[Lord_Drod]

5 hours ago, Himerance said:

Do give yourself more time to read, especially if you're struggling with the language.

Maybe you should give yourself time to practice tennokai since you can't hit a 2 second window consistently and need tennokai's to hold for you while running discipline merit because 4 hits is too long to wait for it to queue up again.  That's why opportunities reach exists, but you want the large window with the frequent proc chance. 

I don't need you to say it.  Your issue doesn't exist if you only heavy attack when the window is up.  That's the risk reward of the system.  There's no downside to having tennokai hold, where you can't ever miss the window of opportunity.

Furthermore, you apparently don't realize that you're basically asking for a permanent 12x combo since you'd never lose combo if you waited for tennokai to proc and it held until your next heavy attack.  Free heavy attacks as often as 1 every 4 hits with zero downside.

Edit:  Sorry, you're new.  I'd have been more helpful if you weren't sarcastic and condescending.  It's general discussion, and I simply didn't agree with your suggestion.  Anywho, hopefully Pollex helped you out some.

Edited April 25 by Lord_Drod

[PollexMessier]

2 hours ago, Himerance said:

I'm definitely going to look into dual ichor incarnon, I had no idea. I always hated how long it takes to ramp up combo points. Thanks.

Edit: The genesis for it is in the rotation right now, #*!% yea!

One of the 2nd evolutions multiplies the combo gained from enemies inflicted with toxin status by 5. Just build it for, well, toxin status, and it's basically my suggestion for cutting the combo multiplier down substantially. Combined with it being a dual blade so having a lot of multi-hit stance combos, it racks up insanely fast.

Not being able to build viral on it is really not an issue. This thing just melts enemies. I don't even think I have it built very well but here's my build all the same

Don't worry about the Riven. You can stick anything you want there really. I'd recommend Buzzkill or Carnis Mandible for more slash, but it really doesn't need it. Tho the extra status from Carnis Mandible would help it ramp up faster. Gladiator Might for more crit damage and chance, especially since it's a combo monster. If you wanna lean harder into heavy-attack tennokai spam you could go killing blow. Or Focus Radon for radiation, which would actually be really good with this because of the DoT status clouds the weapon dumps everywhere, would CC enemies like crazy. Plus radiation's bonus against alloy armor, another element for CO, and some heavy attack efficiency if you miss a tennokai. Tho as I said this thing builds combo so fast it doesn't matter. Lotta opportunities for that slot.

[Himerance]

9 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

That's the risk reward of the system.  There's no downside to having tennokai hold, where you can't ever miss the window of opportunity.

Turning away from a risk reward system to a reward system every number of hits (or chance based) doesn't sound so terrible to me but, I do see your point.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the time it takes to ramp up combo points is where the issue lies. So much investment to make melee feel better and even then it's not enough. I don't know about you but, unless naramon is my active school and I have a duration mod equipped, I don't bother using melee. It would be terrible.

I guess I'm not okay with how punishing it is to lose all of my combo points rather than the tennokai mechanic itself.

9 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

It's general discussion, and I simply didn't agree with your suggestion.

Just disagreeing would have been fine.

[Himerance]

Something else I was thinking about:

One of the things the game takes pride in is that you can instantly switch from primary to melee. When is this good lol? Right now melee is usable only after spending some time ramping up combo points and if you were to switch from melee, to use your primary, you'd just lose your points and be #*!%ed. One could argue that a heavy attack build would serve in this scenario better but, guess what: for whatever reason you can't seamlessly switch from primary to a heavy attack like you can with normal attacks. Lmao.

Edit: I'm off my own topic, good job brain.

Edited April 25 by Himerance

[Lord_Drod]

I'd like naramon to be deleted and built in or something.  It's annoying to need naramon to utilize melee or constantly lose your combo, since I prefer unairu.  The focus system still needs some tweaking I guess.  Or that's just how they want the focus schools to cater to different playstyles. 

There are some weapons that can attack faster, doing multi hits, and mods that help ramp it up, like quickening, true punishment, relentless combination.  Arcanes, like Secondary dexterity to help with combo duration.  Arcane strike for attack speed.  Exodia Valor and triumph for zaws and a number of incarnon melees have different perks related to that as well.  It's hard to fit some of those in a max damage build, but for most missions you can combine somethings to make them work effectively without having to use naramon.

Also, if you use any kind of grouper, it helps ramp up combos very fast.  There's a bunch of things that can do that like melee vortex, nautilus, pull, larva, coil horizon, ensare, exodia hunt etc

Edited April 25 by Lord_Drod

[Himerance]

site was acting weird, sorry

Edited April 26 by Himerance