Lore Discussion: The Fallen Empire Theory

[FlyDungas]

I've been contemplating the possibility that the Lotus is kind of evil. Remember that it/she/they or whatever where the bad guys in Dark Sector as they had lotus emblems on their suits just like our warframes do. And last nights Darvo mission with all its dialogue makes me wonder whether we will be getting a choice between the two of them. He did say not to tell the Lotus. Why? Lotus would care if you saved him from Stalker? Idk. "I am pleased with your performance." It really doesn't seem like she cares about the Tenno or is helping them.

[RabidBunny]

Well, here are my thoughts:

 

Orokin manufacture a machine race to do all their menial work whilst they lived a life of luxury. Machines became Sentient and either rebelled or were put down, similar to the Geth, Goldem Men/Stone Men from 40k and the Machines from the Matrix series. As the guardians and protectors of the Orokin, the Orokin were pushed to the brink of defeat. The Orokin used the Void infected (possibly where the Technocyte virus comes from) Orokin to make the first Tenno to fight back.

 

During the war the Tenno are created en masse and used to turn the tide using lower tech weapons to beat the Sentients back. The Sentients are defeated, being utterly destroyed or reduced to a point where they are utterly ineffectual. The Tenno, after being created and used as tools then turn on the Orokin. This could have been resentment at being used as cannon fodder, a superiority complex seeing how weak the Orokin had become after relying on the Sentients and then the Tenno for defence or similar to lower class revolts utterly deposing the ruling class. The Stalker saw this and decided to enact revenge. It could be mental conditioning, misplaced loyalty or actual loyalty. If he is an Orokin survivor I think this is plenty of reason to be a bit miffed at the people who utterly betrayed you.

 

The Lotus is weird, the Corpus call her the Betrayer. The Lotus symbol in current religions is a symbol of purity, maturity and development of the self. Perhaps the Lotus is a Corpus who learned about the war between the Sentients and the Orokin and reneged or she could be another Orokin survivor. Either way, I think she is attempting to turn the Tenno into the keepers of balance in the Galaxy using any means she can. The end justifies the means.

[Kaian-a-coel]

 Darvo mission with all its dialogue makes me wonder whether we will be getting a choice between the two of them.

OH MY GOD YES. Rebellion event ALL THE FRIGGIN WAY :D

[Eurhetemec]

I've been contemplating the possibility that the Lotus is kind of evil. Remember that it/she/they or whatever where the bad guys in Dark Sector as they had lotus emblems on their suits just like our warframes do. And last nights Darvo mission with all its dialogue makes me wonder whether we will be getting a choice between the two of them. He did say not to tell the Lotus. Why? Lotus would care if you saved him from Stalker? Idk. "I am pleased with your performance." It really doesn't seem like she cares about the Tenno or is helping them.

 

When I explained the plot of Warframe to my wife several months ago, literally the first thing she suggested was that the Lotus was obviously up to no good lol.

 

That said Darvo is a total prat too, quite willing to get me killed to test a theory.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Eurhetemec

[NightmareT12]

Maybe we're missing the bigger picture, though.

 

What if The Lotus was Orokin and she saw thw wrong on her own people? What's to stop us thinking she disagreed with every single thing the Orokin did? Look at her. At her model. At her words. She seems far too ancient. To remember.

 

To be honest, she seems to me like the only single human left out there (that we know of, of course).

[Kaian-a-coel]

To be honest, she seems to me like the only single human left out there (that we know of, of course).

FFS, there isn't anything in warframe that isn't basically HUMAN. Even infested are humans under that mutated flesh.

[Gravefire]

btw you remember how Dark Sector published/released is the version of the game they didn't want, but pay close attention if you pay VERY VERY close attention you will notice what Hayden does, and the lore in that storyline is almost identical to what we have now... Try this...

United States=Orokin Empire

Infected         =Infested

Agency          =Low Guard

Hayden          =Tenno

Lotus hinted   =Lotus

Nemesis         =Stalker

Jackal             =Jackal

Stalker            =Loki

Colossus        =Rhino

I think I also mention that if it does its very miniscule.

 

Some things are going to be similar, not all will be.

[NightmareT12]

FFS, there isn't anything in warframe that isn't basically HUMAN. Even infested are humans under that mutated flesh.

 

Let me be specific: untwisted. Corpus are human-originated, but seem to be the personification of Greed. Grineer are the personification of supremacy. And the Infested are Infested.

 

The Lotus seems to be like the only one that looks like a real human to me. In fact she reminds me of the Doctor, I don't know why...

[Arlayn]

I think I also mention that if it does its very miniscule.

 

Some things are going to be similar, not all will be.

even if you don't go by lore. Go by the fact that they just turned their old Dark Sector space sci-fi into the modern warframe game. With the same lore.

[Gravefire]

even if you don't go by lore. Go by the fact that they just turned their old Dark Sector space sci-fi into the modern warframe game. With the same lore.

If we went by fact, then DS would be included within the game itself threw what the DEVs have said. Its not the same lore. If it was the game would be doomed, doomed I sAYYY

[KARMA2605]

@ Sixty5 - interesting theories

We must slay Lotus and take command over war operations across solar system. We will win in few days, maximum a week,

 

You make several posts indicating that we (the Tenno) are at war - we are not.  We are more like the police, although even that is a bad analogy.  We are maintaining balance, not trying to take control of the solar system.  I strongly suspect this is part of the Tenno code, like following certain yin/yang ideals, and so on.  Regardless, we are not at war - though yes, if we were we are doing a sh*t job.

 

My ideas revolved around the fact that the Sentients might have used the Indoctrination techniques learned from the Orokin ("They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us") on the Tenno as a last resort, but the Tenno were too resilient and honour bound to suffer from it. But as the balance shifted, the Tenno started to succumb to the effects of the indoctrination and decided that the Orokin needed to be eliminated in the name of Balance. Then the Tenno put themselves into cryostasis to reawaken when they needed to resotre balance to the system once again. This unnatural desire to maintain balance could also be accounted to the Orokin conditioning of Tenno as a tool to win the Great War.

 

Part of this is intriguing, though I think you're giving the Orokin too much credit.  It sounds like the Orokin were likely not a native race/species/ intelligence to the solar system to me, but were highly advanced and relied on technology way too much.  This goes back to my theory that the Sentients were an AI or something similar, basically took control, forcing the Orokin to rely on their "subjects".  I think the Orokin likely used indoctrination initially on the Tenno, but whatever happened to them in the Void changed that.  They made their own code and decided the Orokin were no better than the Sentients.

 

 

I personally think that the Lotus is the manifestation of something that was waiting inside the Void and corrupted the tennos.

After our exposition to the Void and without warframes, she was able to directly mind-control us and made us destroy the Orokin after the Sentients were defeated.

Having no further use for us at that time, she put us in cryosleep after wiping our memories.

Millenias later, she awaken us again, poses as "the Lotus" to gain our trust, and proceed into making us do her bidding.

 

An interesting theory, but I don't think it is anything as sinister as that.  However, if the Neural Sentry was a limited AI that somehow "awoke" to become a full AI whilst the Tenno were in the Void, that could explain a lot.  Given that the Lotus is soon getting a body, it makes that theory a little less valid unless she is some kind of android.

 

All orokin-descended beings are immune the neural sentry.

 

This is correct in my opinion, helping argue that the Orokin were not human and not native to the solar system.

 

Warframes armor were designed after they went to the void, sure, but either they were based on earlier "low guardian" design, or the low guardians were retrofitted with warframes during the god-knows-how-long period between the Tenno return and their eventual betrayal.

 

Moreover, we don't exactly visit the void, nor is stalker. We go to Orokin buildings hiddent within the void, slight difference.

I heavily suspect that said towers are outfitted with a "geller field" repelling the corrupting effects of "hellspace".

 

Tennos went without and were corrupted.

 

Also, now that we know that the Orokin basically won against the Sentients, it begs the question of when and why the Towers were hidden in the void.

 

I suspect the Towers were sent into the Void either before the Sentient war and abandoned due to the chaotic nature of the void (latter to be revistited by the humans sent there whom then became the Tenno) or were put there as part of the program to harness the void in a last ditch attempt to defeat the Sentients (which ultimately worked).

 

 

snip

 

I again would hazard that the Orokin were not human, therefore immune to the virus (assuming it targets only human-based genome) but that yes we the Tenno were at risk.

[Jandor]

I think the Tenno are Humans infected with Technocyte but due to rare genetic fluke they're able to control it, this control gives them the capability to interface directly with certain technology. The Technocyte Humans were cast into the void as Abominations, but the void twisted them and gave them gifts, wild and uncontrollable abilities. The Warframes were created in a moment of desperation, the Tenno can wear it as a second skin and it gives them the ability to channel their powers safely (for them.)

 

The Stalker is the same sort of thing, but his abilities are purely technological in nature. He was a prototype for the Tenno, a clone of the discarded Technocyte humans with the natural propensity to control technology as if were a part of his body, but without the gift/curse of extended void exposure that gives Tenno their power.

His Dispel ability is a device that temporarily severs our void connection removing our abilities.

 

 

I'd also guess that the Orokin are AI and the sentients are Humans. The Orokin were created after the Technocyte plagued ravaged the Earth, they protected Humanity and led them into a new golden age, creating the solar rails and terraforming many new worlds for them. But Humanity chafed under their control and many worlds eventually rebelled.

The Tenno were originally cast into the void because normal Humanity feared and despised them for carrying the plague and the direct technology interface was a threat to the Orokin AI's in a way that the regular infested can never be.

 

I think it explains some of the void stuff as well, it's psychically charged or something. The Orokin struggle to percieve anything there, hence why all their attempts to analyze it and understand it fail, but exposing normal Humans to it drives them insane. Only the Tenno, an unintentional melding of technological and biological can both percieve it and stay relatively sane.

 

 

The Corpus are remnants of the Orokin loyalists, hence why they worship them and call the Tenno and Lotus betrayers, the Indoctrination temples are reverse engineered Neural sentries. The Grineer found the cloning labs that the Orokin originally used in their Stalker experiments, but they suck at using it and it's millenia old, so all the clones are terrible degenerate versions of the originals.

 

 

Well, that's a lot of probably wrong theorizing.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

But why would the Tenno kill the Orokin? From what we see the Tenno are meant to be the honourable keepers of balance.

 

From what we see where?

We kill people left and right just because.

Ruk now calls the Tenno out on how little honor we have, we just did a mission for Davro on side away from the Lotus.

We just had a war were we fought in both sides!

 

In the words if Lil Jon...

 

"We dont give a funk!

We got the Corpus wit me, we dont give a funk.

Got the Grineer wit me, we dont give a funk. "

 

The foe they were made to fight had been beaten, and it would have been a time of peace, flourishing under the Orokin, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. In the passage from the Stalker the Orokin Empire is referenced, and in most cases a technologically superior race does not rule via peaceful methods. Futhermore if you look to the Corrupted, the enemies you see have been controlled by the "Neural Sentry" an Orokin Construct.

 

We dont even know what the Orokin are to start.

From the Excal lore it could be read to mean that WE are the Orokin.

The Tenno are Orokin who are void twisted.

So the Orokin could just be some random human Empire that had a war with some other things. 

People who are in charge are always hated by some one so thats really not an excuse. We need more info. 

 

Hmm, mind control and ruling an Empire, it doesn't paint the Orokin in the best light.

 

Yes, you didnt paint them in the best light.

Which i could do as well with the Tenno.

 

What if the Tenno, trained as they were came to the conclusion that their Orokin overlords were messing up the Balance they were meant to keep? Well in that case I'd imagine that they'd do what Tenno do best, and slaughter them all. Or maybe the Tenno needed a little push to come to this conclusion, perhaps one of the Orokin who had come to the same conclusion, free of control, decided that it was time for things to change. Said person would likely have escaped death via Tenno blades, and given the longevity of the Stalker, it isn't much of a stretch to say that said individual is still alive and well. But who could it be? Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Lotus, last surviving member of the Orokin, or at least a remnant from that age.

 

Or maybe after being equipped which such powerful unstoppable weaponry the Tenno went power mad and decided to take over!

 

This in turn brings up another point, who were the ones enslaved by the Orokin? Well if you look at who we fight now you can get a fair idea. The Grineer are heavily militaristic, generations of clones, perhaps from the remnants of a fighting force broken during the great war, and the Corpus, merchants with a penchant for Orokin artefacts as well as the use of Indoctrination temples.

 

Furthermore given that in times of revolution the body that revolts seeks to dispose fully of their former oppressors, it sort of makes sense that we hear cries of "Death to the Lotus" during missions, especially considering The Lotus had/has the most powerful fighting force in the System under her guidance. Finally it seems likely that the story of the Orokin's slaughter would be remembered by the survivors, given that in most cases it freed them, this seems to be the origin of the Tenno being 'Betrayers' or 'Traitors' in the words of the recently departed Alad V.

 

The Grineer appeared AFTER the collapse which was a time of chaos. 

The Tenno being power mad seem to not have planned their coup properly and after it the whole solar system ended up a mess.

 

The Grineer could hate the Lotus because they are trying to bring back the glory of the previous empire. And Corpus are just greedy, they probably had some good deals going with the Orokin.

 

Next, if you look at the Stalkers point of view of the situation other things become clear. He remains loyal towards the Orokin even now due to his mental conditioning, and in his eyes that means that the members of the Grineer and Corpus are still subservient to the Orokin, and whose members are therefore valuable. Given his lifespan (survived for "ages" whilst the Tenno slept) I'd say that he would be able to accept new people filling roles as they were emptied, but would see the Tenno killing of a Grineer Captain as killing a Captain in the Orokin military.

 

Remember the originally that the Stalker only appeared when you killed Grineer bosses. It wasn't until people complained that they had to kill Grineer bosses all the time to make him appear that DE changed it.

 

So going with that and what i just added above, the Grineer COULD be trying to revive the Orokin era and the Stalker could be helping them in his own way. This was why he ONLY appeared when you killed Grineer bosses originally.

 

So where does that leave us? Well we have seen that the Orokin aren't exactly angels, in fact they seem like the sort of guys who would unleash something like the Infested upon the system in the hopes of saving their own butts, or perhaps sending their warriors into the Void, damned the consequences, again to try and save themselves. At that point the Tenno, decided that they'd have to go, and one way or another off'd their former masters.

There are many discussions of whether or not the Tenno are good or evil, but from what I can see they are neither. To me it seems the Tenno are simply carrying out their job, to keep the balance in the system, with the Lotus potentially following this path as well, with maybe a little bit of guidance along the way.

 

So what do you think? 

 

Discuss.

 

 

That leaves us with the Orokin using a last ditch effort to keep the solar system safe, which, by the way, they actually did, ending up being their undoing. Evil dudes within the Orokin used this last ditch effort to gain power to successfully obtain the resources they needed to destroy all the leaders and put themselves on top. But greedy people being greedy didn't think ahead, they didnt think the Orokin had prepared for something like this but they did. All Orokin tech, all the important things ended up locking itself and disappearing so these traitors ended up with nothing but what they brought to the battle. And it looks like none of the traitors had any knowledge of the tech the leaders used so they were left in basically the same position that they were before because eventually the power they gained was going to break down.

 

So it appears that their plan was to put themselves to sleep while they left some computer programs on trying to figure out how get all that important technology back. They didnt care about anyone but themselves so they left the solar system in chaos. The people of the solar system now all had to take care the rebuilding after the war alone. They had to deal with all those problems which included some Orokin weapons of war that were no longer able to be controlled because the Orokin were gone.... yeah, that's right... THE INFESTED.

 

The Tenno are SUPER EVIL GREEDY DOGS!

[bejuizb]

NOTHING in warframe is extrasolar. Grineer are human clones. Corpus are humans. Orokin are humans. Tennos are humans. Hell, even the infested originate from good old earth.

Have a look at the Grineer section of the Lore page in game (if it still exists). I've uninstalled my game for the time being so I cannot confirm this, but I'm very sure that it says that the Grineer appeared after the Great War, from the outer reaches of the system, eager to take control of the chaos following the war. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Jandor]

"From the chaos of the Collapse, they emerged, Violent hordes of decaying clones, overflowing from their toxic womb. They flood the Origin System, swallowing colonies whole.

The twin Queens, the SISTERS, have devised a plan to transform the scattered colonies into an Empire across the planets.
The Sisters have sent their most trusted brood on a vital quest - the TENNO, hidden and asleep, must never awake."

[Kaian-a-coel]

See? Nothing about being from "outside". And the Origin system is just our solar system.

(Thanks for the quote Jandor ^^)

Edited November 28, 2013 by Kaian-a-coel

[Sixty5]

All very valid points. The link to Dark Sector was confirmed, but IIRC it is more of a what if link.

I'll also say that no man sees himself as evil, but I doubt the Tenno see themselves as anything really.

[Gravefire]

I'll just making every connecting to Dolphins next time and say Dark Sector was the true dolphin

[Sixty5]

Dolphins have neither been confirmed nor denied by the Devs. 

 

Besides we can hardly be dolphins, our suits have no fish induction ports.

[Date_Terumune]

Tenno, my brothers and sisters

 

In my Opinion we are the Weapon created to kill, not to defend or learn.

 

In fact the Orokin have perished and some of us were in cryo-sleep, you might listen to this:

 

As a weapon we were needed to destroy enemies of Orokin, but after we completed this, what was our pruporse? balance? peace? as far as i know and remember, never been tought of peace and mercy.

We knew only how to kill.

By the time passed Weapon became unstable, without another enemy we started to turn against Orokin and perhaps eachother.

 

This Could explain why some of us were in Cryo-sleep, as we were captured again by Orokin and forcibly put inside, some of our brethen were imposible to catch and they slaughtered our Creators, without new enemy they might have killed eachother.

 

Stalker could be an Orokin Soldier, who sacrificed himself to be put inside Warframe, wich needed a lot of time to master, thats why they couldnt replace us in fighting the enemy.

[Gravefire]

Dolphins have neither been confirmed nor denied by the Devs. 

 

Besides we can hardly be dolphins, our suits have no fish induction ports.

Well considering the Sentient can't use anything that requires opposable thumbs it just makes me wonder.

[ShardsSuperior]

Well considering the Sentient can't use anything that requires opposable thumbs it just makes me wonder.

They could also be mice.

[bejuizb]

Lets try not to go off topic chaps. I don't want another intellectual thread to soon get derailed with doge memes and crap like that. lets keep those ideas rolling!

[RabidBunny]

Hm, I was reading through my codex, in the events page Vor speculates that the Tenno are linked to the void and talks about the demons of the void. Its worth reading as Vor seems particularly knowledgeable about the Void.

[bejuizb]

Hm, I was reading through my codex, in the events page Vor speculates that the Tenno are linked to the void and talks about the demons of the void. Its worth reading as Vor seems particularly knowledgeable about the Void.

I'm quite confused with the portrayal of the void. An alternate dimension where the Tenno became retards(?) sounds a bit too far fetched.