Should unused mod points be applied as some sort of Bonus?

[KVenom]

We have seen what DE did with usused mod points on Warframes - extra Starting Energy.

That have gave us a good stimulus to apply extra polarities to our warframes, without breaking the game.

So, why don't we get a similar approach to weapons and other things?

Let's talk about weapons, specifically.

My suggestions:

1. Bonus Max Ammo for Guns and Starting Combo for Melee — 1 of each per Point, Bonus Ammo is halved for Guns with built-in AOE
2. Bonus Damage — 1% per point, works like Serration or Pressure Point, with all the same math
3. Bonus Reload Speed for Guns and Combo Efficiency for Melee — -0.1 Second per point for Guns and +1% CE per point, respectively.

Edited June 15 by KVenom
removed base to prevent idiot confusion

[Zahnrad]

Probably a dumb idea but, Recoil/Accuracy

My logic being, Mods add "weight" to a weapon and by having capacity the weapon is less "heavy" and easier to control.

[Zakkhar]

No, they shouldn't.

[Pakaku]

No, the bonus energy is only there to be better than nothing, but not high enough to discourage unmodding

[KVenom]

2 часа назад, Zahnrad сказал:

Probably a dumb idea but, Recoil/Accuracy

My logic being, Mods add "weight" to a weapon and by having capacity the weapon is less "heavy" and easier to control.

But what about melee then?

[KVenom]

2 часа назад, Pakaku сказал:

No, the bonus energy is only there to be better than nothing, but not high enough to discourage unmodding

And on weapons we get "nothing", especially on Kuva/Tennet.

YOUR POINT?!

Edited June 13 by KVenom

[Pakaku]

9 minutes ago, KVenom said:

And on weapons we get "nothing", especially on Kuva/Tennet.

YOUR POINT?!

I suppose because, like with the energy thing on warframes being a tiny bonus, there isn't any reason not to fully use your mods and they don't want to encourage it by adding more buffs for no cost

[KVenom]

3 минуты назад, Pakaku сказал:

I suppose because, like with the energy thing on warframes being a tiny bonus, there isn't any reason not to fully use your mods and they don't want to encourage it by adding more buffs for no cost

Purely subjective, considering Harrow, Styanax, and Protea who need some starting mana to generate infinite.

So, basically, a pleasant bonus, that helps.

 

And I propose having those for Weapons too, not just for Warframes.

I chose those specific bonuses, because they wouldn't change much, but would make the fact that you have to add 5 Forma into Tennet/Kuva weapons to get full Mastery EXP less of a pain.

Edited June 13 by KVenom

[Pakaku]

2 minutes ago, KVenom said:

And I propose having those for Weapons too, not just for Warframes.

Sure, but asides from max ammo, those buffs you've listed creep too much into DPS to just have for free

As for anything equivalent, not sure, because starting with little to no energy would be like starting with little to no ammo for guns (you need ammo/energy to start doing anything), and there's not even a melee equivalent in that regard either

[Gaxxian]

hace 4 horas, KVenom dijo:

Bonus Max Ammo for Guns and Starting Combo for Melee — 1 of each per Point, Bonus Ammo is halved for Guns with built-in AOE

I like that one. Isn't too powerful while remain interesting.

[KVenom]

2 часа назад, Pakaku сказал:

Sure, but asides from max ammo, those buffs you've listed creep too much into DPS to just have for free

Excuse you?

7 часов назад, KVenom сказал:

Bonus Max Ammo for Guns and Starting Combo for Melee — 1 of each per Point, Bonus Ammo is halved for Guns with built-in AOE

Bonus Ammo doesn't do jack$#it, especially since you'd get 8 extra max Ammo on average on Tennet/Kuva Weapons with AOE. Same with Starting combo, except it's 20, which is 2x. Even if you polarise everything, you will still get only a small boost, with a huge caveat of not being able to change your build.

7 часов назад, KVenom сказал:

Bonus Damage — 1% per point, works like Serration or Pressure Point, with all the same math

A fully unmoded Tennet/Kuva Gun with all polarirties would 80% Damage and a Melee Weapon of the same series would get +90% at best. For comparison, Point Strike adds 120% Damage (165% Primed), while Serration gives 165%. Condition Overload gives 80% PER STATUS, and same with Galvanizeed mods after 2 kills.
With 5 Polarities that bonus goes down to 20%.
It's barely noticeable, CONSIDERING IT'S A BASE DAMAGE MOD. Base Damage mods add to each other, not multiply.
That's why people tend to abandon such mods in favor of Galvanized and Condition Overload. You won't even feel that damage increase most of the time.

7 часов назад, KVenom сказал:

Bonus Reload Speed for Guns and Combo Efficiency for Melee — -0.1 Second per point for Guns and +1% CE per point, respectively.

Reload Speed does not affect dps. And Combo efficiency can't go above 80%, it's hard-coded. At max average you will get -1.6 of reload time and 21% Combo Efficiency. Which is not much, but helps. As in the whole point of my suggestions.

Edited June 13 by KVenom

[Fred_Avant_2019]

No thanks. Guns are fine as they are, excluding Stug. Melees are fine, excluding whips.

[Pakaku]

11 hours ago, KVenom said:

Bonus Ammo doesn't do jack$#it

Yes, I was agreeing with that more or less

Bonus damage is still damage, doesn't matter how much or how unnoticable it is. Reload speed adds to DPS by reducing the time before you can start dealing damage again. Combo counter feeds indirectly into DPS by influencing plenty of damage-based stuff like heavy attack damage and mods like Blood Rush

[Venus-Venera]

Am 13.6.2024 um 07:06 schrieb KVenom:

We have seen what DE did with usused mod points on Warframes - extra Starting Energy.

That have gave us a good stymulus to apply extra polarities to our warframes, without breaking the game.

So, why don't we get a similar approach to weapons and other things?

Let's talk about weapons, specifically.

My suggestions:

1. Bonus Max Ammo for Guns and Starting Combo for Melee — 1 of each per Point, Bonus Ammo is halved for Guns with built-in AOE
2. Bonus Damage — 1% per point, works like Serration or Pressure Point, with all the same math
3. Bonus Reload Speed for Guns and Combo Efficiency for Melee — -0.1 Second per point for Guns and +1% CE per point, respectively.

There is a topic about yellow shards further down. I would go that route because Warframe stats like more range/duration get me a lot further. I can only do something with energy at the start of a mission in very few cases.

[Merkranire]

Huh. Never thought to apply extra polarities to end up with more starting energy; I knew it was there, but I guess it’s a thing I can do if I’ve got non-umbral Forma to burn (though at the moment I’ve got every weapon to get through, which is going to take a while)

edit: I guess some extra offhand ammo would be fine…? Though I often have way too much for some weapons by default already

Edited June 15 by Merkranire

[YOURteacher100]

On 2024-06-13 at 6:06 AM, KVenom said:

We have seen what DE did with usused mod points on Warframes - extra Starting Energy.

That have gave us a good stymulus to apply extra polarities to our warframes, without breaking the game.

So, why don't we get a similar approach to weapons and other things?

Let's talk about weapons, specifically.

My suggestions:

1. Bonus Max Ammo for Guns and Starting Combo for Melee — 1 of each per Point, Bonus Ammo is halved for Guns with built-in AOE
2. Bonus Damage — 1% per point, works like Serration or Pressure Point, with all the same math
3. Bonus Reload Speed for Guns and Combo Efficiency for Melee — -0.1 Second per point for Guns and +1% CE per point, respectively.

Issue would be kuva/tenet weapons, its easy to have 40+ points left

[KVenom]

16 минут назад, YOURteacher100 сказал:

Issue would be kuva/tenet weapons, its easy to have 40+ points left

Not rly, considering how the math works.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

On 2024-06-13 at 12:22 PM, KVenom said:

Bonus Ammo doesn't do jack$#it

Reload Speed does not affect dps.

Apart from pointing out the obvious, that these two points are arguing against your own idea and if we take them as being true, make your idea automatically completely redundant, it's also worth noting they're both completely wrong.

DPS is Damage Per Second. Taken by a Tester recording a weapons damage over X amount of time, repeated several times to account for variables, averaging the result, and dividing it down to a Per Second numerical value.

- If you have more bullets, you can do more damage within X's time frame. You literally have more bullets to help you do more damage. If you were asked to throw a ball into a circle at a carnival, would you have a better chance with 3 balls or 5?

- Similarly if you have a reload speed of 2 seconds, you'll be doing more damage than if it were 3 seconds. You've reloaded faster and are thus ready to fire faster.

I've seen this weird theory about those variables not affecting the outcome a few times over the last few weeks and its just.... that's not how math works.

Also just a quick off topic question, was this the first time you've tried out the word Stimulus? There's no Y in it. How come autocorrect didn't give you a hand?

[KVenom]

58 минут назад, (PSN)MYKK678 сказал:

automatically completely redundant

The idea is - small bonus that helps, not something too substancial.

Also,

1 час назад, YOURteacher100 сказал:

Issue would be kuva/tenet weapons, its easy to have 40+ points left

You mind telling me where on earth did you got those numbers? Normally it's 15-32, and that's with ALL the slots polarised. You conviniently forgot about Primed mods and Galvanized mods, didn't you?
And if we have no mods - we still get less. What's better - some small increase from a few points you won by either not filling a mod slot or not upgrading a mod enough, OR a much bigger increase from a full mod? Obviously the second, 99.99% of the time.

58 минут назад, (PSN)MYKK678 сказал:

DPS is Damage Per Second.

No s#$t, Sherloc. Reloading doesn't rly matter at such small numbers. -0.1 second per point means -3.2 seconds at most. And Reload Time can't be lower than 0.5, as it is hard-coded that way. And don't forget that we have things like  Grimoire mods, Smeeta Kavat(that can bypass that hard reload limit btw), Wisp's motes, Energized Munitions(Why reload when you can just not spend ammo?), Sliding Shot Arcane(That also woks in the aim glide and also increases ammo efficiency),  or we can just play as Gauss/Harrow. Meaning that adding this won't change much. Not to mention that with Tennet weapons we can just swing melee to let them reload by themselves, dealing just as much damage per second, if not more, considering Tennet Melee, Zaws, Incarnon Melee..

And as for bonus ammo - it's not the ammo in your magazine. You will still make a pause between firing to reload. And we can't have both Reload and Max Ammo in there, those are two separate variants.
Or wait, are you out of touch that much that you are gonna give me that old excuse about AOE meta? Because newsflash - MUTATORS EXIST. And they absolutely ignore that pathetic excuse (as well as the one you already made by conviniently oversimplifying the whole dillemma) by making it not work in the first place. AND they are placed in the Exilus slot. The only things my proposition will bring is convinience. Some quality of life. Nothing more.

58 минут назад, (PSN)MYKK678 сказал:

I've seen this weird theory about those variables not affecting the outcome a few times over the last few weeks and its just.... that's not how math works.

Except it rly does work that way. Mutators, various other ways of either increasing your reload speed OR circumventing the reload entirely. If you forget about those, then you are really out of touch with the game, my dear forum dweller.

 

This game is beyond complex of just "mOaR aMmO mEaNs MoAr DaMaGe" or "fAsTaH rElOaDh  mEaNs MoAr dAmAgE".

 

58 минут назад, (PSN)MYKK678 сказал:

Also just a quick off topic question, was this the first time you've tried out the word Stimulus? There's no Y in it. How come autocorrect didn't give you a hand?

Oh, that's adorable, you are trying to derail the discussion with a personal attack. Ever considered that:
1. PC's don't have autocorrect?
2. I am not a native English speaker?

But hey, you tried.

Edited June 15 by KVenom

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, KVenom said:

The idea is - small bonus that helps, not something too substancial.

Also,

You mind telling me where on earth did you got those numbers? Normally it's 15-32, and that's with ALL the slots polarised. You conviniently forgot about Primed mods and Galvanized mods, didn't you?
And if we have no mods - we still get less. What's better - some small increase from a few points you won by either not filling a mod slot or not upgrading a mod enough, OR a much bigger increase from a full mod? Obviously the second, 99.99% of the time.

No s#$t, Sherloc. Reloading doesn't rly matter at such small numbers. -0.1 second per point means -3.2 seconds at most. And Reload Time can't be lower than 0.5, as it is hard-coded that way. And don't forget that we have things like  Grimoire mods, Smeeta Kavat(that can bypass that hard reload limit btw), Wisp's motes, Energized Munitions(Why reload when you can just not spend ammo?), Sliding Shot Arcane(That also woks in the aim glide and also increases ammo efficiency),  or we can just play as Gauss/Harrow. Meaning that adding this won't change much. Not to mention that with Tennet weapons we can just swing melee to let them reload by themselves, dealing just as much damage per second, if not more, considering Tennet Melee, Zaws, Incarnon Melee..

And as for bonus ammo - it's not the ammo in your magazine. You will still make a pause between firing to reload. And we can't have both Reload and Max Ammo in there, those are two separate variants.
Or wait, are you out of touch that much that you are gonna give me that old excuse about AOE meta? Because newsflash - MUTATORS EXIST. And they absolutely ignore that pathetic excuse (as well as the one you already made by conviniently oversimplifying the whole dillemma) by making it not work in the first place. AND they are placed in the Exilus slot. The only things my proposition will bring is convinience. Some quality of life. Nothing more.

Except it rly does work that way. Mutators, various other ways of either increasing your reload speed OR circumventing the reload entirely. If you forget about those, then you are really out of touch with the game, my dear forum dweller.

 

This game is beyond complex of just "mOaR aMmO mEaNs MoAr DaMaGe" or "fAsTaH rElOaDh  mEaNs MoAr dAmAgE".

 

Oh, that's adorable, you are trying to derail the discussion with a personal attack. Ever considered that:
1. PC's don't have autocorrect?
2. I am not a native English speaker?

But hey, you tried.

So you try to list all the things that already bypass the 0.5 reload, and then state that this wouldn't change anything, completely leaving out everything you just mentioned. Gauss with this change will reload faster than Gauss without it. Motes will reload faster with than without. Kavat will help reload faster with than without. You keep presenting all the reasons why your idea is a bad one, in the posts that are supposed to be defending it.

Also it's Substantial, Conveniently, and Sherlock. For your own sake, turn on Autocorrect.

I'd explain the irony of talking about mutators directly after being "out of touch", but I'm genuinely afraid it'd crush you. You'll get from 2022 to join us here in 2024 eventually, don't worry.

Again, it's Convenience. Autocorrect will be a game changer for you.

Actually the game pretty much is that. The game uses Math to determine damage, indicated by damage displaying as Numbers. Numbers of course having a long history with Math. But let's break it down into simpler terms:

- You throw 1 snowball every 3 seconds for 30 seconds at a wall. I throw 1 snowball every 1 second for 20 seconds at a different wall. Who covered more of their wall with snowballs? (Reload time)

- We both need to fill a 10 litre jug by running back and forth to a well. You have a jug that can hold 1 Litre, I have a jug that can hold 4 Litres. We both run at the same speed and fill our jugs at the same speed. Who would fill theirs first? (Ammo)

Bringing it back to kindergarten level Math will hopefully help. I have my doubts but you might surprise me. Let us know when the epiphany of "oh yeah, more rounds available and more time shooting would absolutely equal a better dps" finally hits you.

Also, not derailing anything. It's a relevant question. Different people speak different languages, that's fine, it's just odd that you can insult everyone who has pointed out how silly the idea is, but get oddly specific words wrong. Like the above examples. You did choose to type the thread in English yourself after all.

Edited June 15 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[KVenom]

37 минут назад, (PSN)MYKK678 сказал:

 

- You throw 1 snowball every 3 seconds for 30 seconds at a wall. I throw 1 snowball every 1 second for 20 seconds at a different wall. Who covered more of their wall with snowballs? (Reload time)

 

- We both need to fill a 10 litre jug by running back and forth to a well. You have a jug that can hold 1 Litre, I have a jug that can hold 4 Litres. We both run at the same speed and fill our jugs at the same speed. Who would fill theirs first? (Ammo)

 

You really try your hardest with pointless metaphors when I just listed cold, hard maths? What are you, an incompetent expelled Political student?

Or maybe you are one of those mathematicians who can't think outside "ideal world" calculations? Just a heads up, perfectly  spherical horses don't exist, and neither does absolute Vacuum.

Not only you are very conviniently ignoring the fact that the numbers you listed are completely made up, but also you ignore the fact that my suggestions are meager, considering the already existing things that just completely wreck the whole "Reload"/"Max Ammo" balances. Wow.
I'd say that you are stubborn and delusional, but you are way past that.

You are trying your best to ignore the facts and present the dilemma as a simple problem when we have more than a bucket, a tub, and a pond.
Multiple mechanisms that either fill the bucket faster, refill the pond faster, or just poor the same amount of water directly into the tub from the lake, skipping the bucket altogether.

What I suggest is making the lake slightly bigger or shortening the already short time to fill the bucket even more. (can only have on of those)
Not making much change, but just enough to notice and feel better about pouring our resources into the Bucket. The golden, beautiful, Bucket Prime. (even if it has a Tennet/Kuva Label slapped upon it)

Edited June 15 by KVenom

[(PSN)MYKK678]

9 minutes ago, KVenom said:

You really try your hardest with pointless metaphors when I just listed cold, hard maths? What are you, an incompetent expelled Political student?

Or maybe you are one of those mathematicians who can't think outside "ideal world" calculations? Just a heads up, perfectly  spherical horses don't exist, and neither does absolute Vacuum.

Not only you are very conviniently ignoring the fact that the numbers you listed are completely made up, but also you ignore the fact that my suggestions are meager, considering the already existing things that just completely wreck the whole "Reload"/"Max Ammo" balances. Wow.
I'd say that you are stubborn and delusional, but you are way past that.

You are trying your best to ignore the facts and present the dilemma as a simple problem when we have more than a bucket, a tub, and a pond.
Multiple mechanisms that either fill the bucket faster, refill the pond faster, or just poor the same amount of water directly into the tub from the lake, skipping the bucket altogether.

What I suggest is making the lake slightly bigger or shortening the already short time to fill the bucket even more. (can only have on of those)
Not making much change, but just enough to notice and feel better about pouring our resources into the Bucket. The golden, beautiful, Bucket Prime. (even if it has a Tennet/Kuva Label slapped upon it)

Cool.

So where are the answers?

Also they're not metaphors. That seems to be another word you don't understand. A metaphor is a figure of speech that refers to one thing by mentioning another. As was clearly indicated, these are Kindergarten Level Math questions.

So, the answers to both questions are....

[KVenom]

12 часов назад, (PSN)MYKK678 сказал:

So where are the answers?

Also they're not metaphors

"A metaphor is a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another." aka the whole thing with "buckets", "baths", "water", "snowballs", etc.

And considering that your calculations stem from imaginary numbers, it's purely rhetoric.

There is no point answering them if they are not even close to reality.

Play the game. Stop hanging out on forums so much.

Edited June 16 by KVenom

[(PSN)MYKK678]

5 hours ago, KVenom said:

"A metaphor is a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another." aka the whole thing with "buckets", "baths", "water", "snowballs", etc.

And considering that your calculations stem from imaginary numbers, it's purely rhetoric.

There is no point answering them if they are not even close to reality.

Play the game. Stop hanging out on forums so much.

So your best idea right now is deflection? You can't answer because you're now well aware that you've made a huge mistake and answering would mean having to admit it. It's that simple.

And speaking of simplicity, nobody bought your "oh but Warframe is more complex" point a while ago. Math can certainly be complex, I'd imagine much of Math seems complex to you after this back and forth, but what we're talking about isn't. It's literally just plus or minus.

By adjusting the reload time, you're decreasing the breaks between firing the weapon, and thus increasing the total amount of time you're firing said weapon within a set period.

By adjusting Ammo amount, you're increasing the amount of things you have available to you that do damage, and thus spend less time having to go and replenish this resource.

The ideas are dead on arrival. You didn't think it through enough to account for the fact that it would have an impact on DPS, and you're unwilling to discuss it with anyone with a civil tone. I don't mind taking heat for my replies, but you turned very quickly on others who simply pointed out flaws in your logic. Which suggests this is more of a "you finding out you aren't as smart as you thought you were" kind of situation. That however is something you'd need real life help with and isn't a suitable topic for here.

Point being, there's no chance this should be added. And you have plenty of reasons in here to choose from now.

[Redrigoth]

On 2024-06-13 at 12:50 AM, Zahnrad said:

Probably a dumb idea but, Recoil/Accuracy

My logic being, Mods add "weight" to a weapon and by having capacity the weapon is less "heavy" and easier to control.

It's the opposite actually. Lighter guns have more recoil because the gun has less mass to absorb the recoil. A tiny pistol will recoil more than a mid-sized pistol. The caliber of the round also affects recoil. More gun powder = more explosive force = more recoil