The enemy armour rework may have gone a little overboard and made them too weak

[g20g10]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

If the game is too easy for you just take some mods/arcanes off.

This game isnt difficult. I rarely ever feel challenged at all. 

Annnnd now the enemies are weaker and we are even stronger, how come you don't see the issue with this?

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 minutes ago, g20g10 said:

Annnnd now the enemies are weaker and we are even stronger, how come you don't see the issue with this?

the game has been doing this for 10+ years?

the line of what is and isnt too much of each aspect is completely arbitrary

ive been instantly killing stuff for the past decade

Edited June 19 by Mr.Holyroller

[SabreWalrus]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

please dont exaggerrate and contradict yourself.

you literally called the game too easy

Me: We shouldn't be able to kill level cap enemies with only two mods on a weapon

You: If the game is too easy for you just take mods off

How many more mods would you like me to take off?

[g20g10]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

the game has been doing this for 10+ years?

the line of what is and isnt too much of each aspect is completely arbitrary

ive been instantly killing stuff for the past decade

so what, we continue doing this till we take all mods off? maybe at some point we'll start doing bullet jumps vs level 9999. Just because the game has been doing this for 10+ years doesn't mean it's right to continue doing so.

[Mr.Holyroller]

5 minutes ago, SabreWalrus said:

Me: We shouldn't be able to kill level cap enemies with only two mods on a weapon

You: If the game is too easy for you just take mods off

How many more mods would you like me to take off?

its your experience. do whatever you need to feel good about yourslef in the game

3 minutes ago, g20g10 said:

so what, we continue doing this till we take all mods off? maybe at some point we'll start doing bullet jumps vs level 9999. Just because the game has been doing this for 10+ years doesn't mean it's right to continue doing so.

that's a terrible use of slippery slope reasoning.

 

[uiuinpl]

Before patch I was testing excalibur build for crit + bonus dmg + cerata. 200 lvl heavy gunners just eat trow explosion and ignore panthetic toxin proc dmg (red crit! + 900% bonus dmg). Right now I can one-shot eximus heavy gunners and if someone somehow survive...toxin proc just kill him. Im fine with more weapons being good and im happy about it but if every single weapon can kill any lvl of enemy..where fun? 

Good change: Much much more weapons are SP ready 
Bad change: Enemy die too fast.
 

[--END--Rikutatis]

This reminds me a lot of the first enemy ehp nerf some years ago. Before that update level cap runs were special and could only be done with with some serious squad synergy and team work (outside of limited cheese like ivara covert lethality and octavia vs corpus). The downside was that it required heavy camping as well, since there was no shield gating or immortality. So I came to get used to the nerfed enemies because it allowed you to do more dynamic and engaging level cap runs.

But it's a bit mind boggling to think about the mountains of power creep the devs kept adding over the years, as the game gets easier and easier and more trivial, and then if that wasn't enough they still feel the need to severely nerf enemy armor to the point modding and planned loadouts barely even matter anymore for level cap runs. It's not like I care that much anymore, I just play the game casually and occassionaly nowadays, but I do think Pablo went overboard this time. He's always been liberal with the power creep, but he added some interesting twists and challenges to the missions as well to keep the engagement. While I understand why he wanted to address armor as an outlier, this might have been too much. 

[SabreWalrus]

19 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

But it's a bit mind boggling to think about the mountains of power creep the devs kept adding over the years, as the game gets easier and easier and more trivial, and then if that wasn't enough they still feel the need to severely nerf enemy armor to the point modding and planned loadouts barely even matter anymore for level cap runs.

My friend described it as "burning the candle at both ends". Buffing the players is one thing, nerfing the enemies is another, but doing both at once just leads to this weird situation where it's too much. We have all these awesome new ways to deal damage (Magnetic and Blast are both super fun) and an awesome new Eximus unit, but it feels a bit hollow right now because we really are just too overpowered

[Xylena_Lazarow]

3 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

ive been instantly killing stuff for the past decade

There's still a difference between easy and trivial. Easy can still be fun and satisfying, because there's still a game to play. We've now reached the trivial phase (again), where there is no more game, your build choices don't matter, your tactics don't matter, you are going to faceroll unless you deliberately gimp yourself. This game does have decent ai and enemies with cool abilities like the new Jade Eximi, but TTK is too low for it to matter. Raise TTK, make a Platinum Path or whatever idk, something.

[Rexis12]

4 hours ago, g20g10 said:

How could you tell a beginner player to switch from his newly made burston if he doesn't even have to since it will be able to clear the entire games content so easily?

Hot take, if DE wants to continue with the stupid Random Gear, the basic Burst on SHOULD be able to clear all game content. 

 

What y'all want is for only specific weapons and only specific status effects to be 'good'. 

#*!% that, I'm tired of needing armor strip, viral and slash is boring to play, I want to actually use magnetic and let it kill enemies that are supposed to be weak to magnetic really fast, same for corrosive. Same floor gas, without it being caused by the game spaghetti code causing status effects to Quadruple Dip for damage. 

Because that's what the game you guys are clamoring for, wanting the specials mechanics that are caused by the spaghetti code. That's how Corrosive was so 'strong' against ferrite, because it double dipped in the weakness multiplier. Why Banes were so strong with status, because it double dipped.

Why? Who knows. 

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

There's still a difference between easy and trivial. Easy can still be fun and satisfying, because there's still a game to play. We've now reached the trivial phase (again), where there is no more game, your build choices don't matter, your tactics don't matter, you are going to faceroll unless you deliberately gimp yourself. This game does have decent ai and enemies with cool abilities like the new Jade Eximi, but TTK is too low for it to matter. Raise TTK, make a Platinum Path or whatever idk, something.

they do matter. all of you are exagerrating.

I even went to "auto install" on several weapons i have 5-8 forma on just to entertain some of the nonsense people have been saying on the forums and enemies dont just fall over. 

Edited June 20 by Mr.Holyroller

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 minute ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

they do matter. all of you are exagerrating. I even went to "auto install" on several weapons i have 5-8 forma on just to entertain some of it and enemies dont just fall over. 

Like I said, you needed to deliberately gimp yourself. Attempting to play the game normally results in a non-game. A week ago we at least had to think about whether our builds could handle armor, and at least aim in the general direction of heavies.

[Mr.Holyroller]

7 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Like I said, you needed to deliberately gimp yourself. Attempting to play the game normally results in a non-game. A week ago we at least had to think about whether our builds could handle armor, and at least aim in the general direction of heavies.

and like i said, you're just exaggerating

[Xylena_Lazarow]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

and like i said, you're just exaggerating

Are you happy with where TTK is then?

[Rich_Rulez]

Stop playing Revenant/Octavia, start playing solo with SP modifiers and use a different weapon besides the Torid. Problem should be solved.

Edited June 20 by Rich_Rulez

[dpr3000]

We need 99999 lvl now

Edited June 20 by dpr3000

[Joylesstuna]

Everything other then the usual viral slash seems to be much stronger now. 

[Gaxxian]

hace 2 horas, Joylesstuna dijo:

Everything other then the usual viral slash seems to be much stronger now. 

Yet even the usual viral slash has a higher TTK than before xD I didnt changed a single build... why i should? Enemies are just papermade.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

6 hours ago, Rich_Rulez said:

Stop playing Revenant/Octavia, start playing solo with SP modifiers and use a different weapon besides the Torid. Problem should be solved.

It's not. Any vaguely coherent loadout is gonna faceroll SP like it's the basic star chart now, unless you deliberately try to lose.

[SabreWalrus]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

However I wouldn't considered them "big variety". Like you use armor strip like helminth (Styanax, Hildryn), some innate abilities/augments (Protea's augment, Xaku/3) or that school. That's not lot of variety.

The variety comes from the fact that you're not locked into something too particular - with 2 green shards for 14 Corrosive stacks, all you needed was to make sure you had at least one weapon modded for Corrosive with decent status chance, and voila. It could be your primary, secondary, or melee, it could be aoe or single target depending on what was needed, and fitting 2 green shards on a frame tends to be much easier than having to subsume a strip like Tharros Strike and reach at least 200% str to be effective. Making partial stripping more effective would've helped massively by meaning we would very likely get away with a single Tau green for 13 stacks to save another shard slot and open up further flexibility. But with everything capped at 90% DR it's now a bit pointless, and it ironically pushes people back to Viral, because +325% from 10 Viral stacks does more for your damage than the strip from 10 Corrosive stacks

 

15 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm really curious if those silly big number cases were for lot of weapons or just few specific. I've tried my k.nukor (heat) vs 180 sp corrutped heavy gunners (eximus probably) in Simulacrum (here might be a bug). Sure, it was kill... but slow. I've tried adding more and more mods but I ended up with more than 1/2 used.

Big Funnee Number couldn't be achieved with absolutely anything, but with more weapons than people would initially expect. It's usually a knowledge check in knowing where you can access multiplicative damage (multiplicative gunCO weapons, multiplication from Vigorous Swap rather than addition, etc) or how things like multishot and fire rate are more desirable on beam weapons than crit chance and crit damage, or how Nataruk's quick shot gets a headshot multiplier while its charged shot doesn't

There is usually a trade off, such as a necessity to maintain Galv stacks (which is easier said than done in any mission other than Survival), or having to prime as many statuses as possible to get a good use out of Condition Overload on a melee (which would just be a matter of investment in a good priming weapon, often Kuva/Tenet for extra progenitor elements), or an absolute reliance on headshots (which means preparing your loadout to make headshots possible if you don't have godlike aim). But lots of additions to the game have made these sorts of trade offs softer and less difficult to maintain. Secondary Encumber turns any secondary into an insane priming weapon for a primary or melee. Tennokai and Melee Crescendo make maintaining 12x combo for melee heavy attacks a breeze. Incarnons were being kept in check by requiring headshots to charge, and then along comes stuff like Torid. Overguard has typically been a scary thing that takes some effort to deal with, but Magnetic now turns it against them by turning it into an enormous burst of damage when it breaks, no matter how crappy the weapon you're using is. The feeling of "choosing the right tool for the job" is massively reduced. We want more things to be viable so it's good, but when it's overtuned it's not good because it feels pointless. We're just incredibly strong right now, so having enemies be nerfed in the face of our current strength is a bit weird

[g20g10]

7 hours ago, Rich_Rulez said:

Stop playing Revenant/Octavia, start playing solo with SP modifiers and use a different weapon besides the Torid. Problem should be solved.

Saying this makes no sense when a clip of yareli using the stug and one shotting a level 9999 was shared.

11 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

What y'all want is for only specific weapons and only specific status effects to be 'good'. 

#*!% that, I'm tired of needing armor strip, viral and slash is boring to play, I want to actually use magnetic and let it kill enemies that are supposed to be weak to magnetic really fast, same for corrosive. Same floor gas, without it being caused by the game spaghetti code causing status effects to Quadruple Dip for damage. 

The entire time, we have been talking about how good the status rework is, and it has made us even stronger as well as given us more variety. The status rework is great, and we all love it, but the armor rework on enemies makes it pointless since you don't even have to build properly anymore.

Edited June 20 by g20g10

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SabreWalrus said:

17 hours ago, quxier said:

However I wouldn't considered them "big variety". Like you use armor strip like helminth (Styanax, Hildryn), some innate abilities/augments (Protea's augment, Xaku/3) or that school. That's not lot of variety.

The variety comes from the fact that you're not locked into something too particular - with 2 green shards for 14 Corrosive stacks, all you needed was to make sure you had at least one weapon modded for Corrosive with decent status chance, and voila. It could be your primary, secondary, or melee, it could be aoe or single target depending on what was needed,

Yes, it was easy to use/do (when you had enough shards of course). It's just my gameplay hasn't changed too much. Like I pick heat nukor. I just change from viral to corrosive. I was doing mostly the same.  That's not "big" variety for me.

1 hour ago, SabreWalrus said:

and it ironically pushes people back to Viral, because +325% from 10 Viral stacks does more for your damage than the strip from 10 Corrosive stacks

Exactly. I've removed 2 shards and put simple 2 red tau strength. And corrosive to viral.

1 hour ago, SabreWalrus said:

Overguard has typically been a scary thing that takes some effort to deal with, but Magnetic now turns it against them by turning it into an enormous burst of damage when it breaks, no matter how crappy the weapon you're using is. The feeling of "choosing the right tool for the job" is massively reduced. We want more things to be viable so it's good, but when it's overtuned it's not good because it feels pointless. We're just incredibly strong right now, so having enemies be nerfed in the face of our current strength is a bit weird

Yeah, overguard with magnetic and/or that new arcane disappear pretty quickly. I even feel it's overtooned and I feel there will be nerf.

 

 

[Rexis12]

1 hour ago, SabreWalrus said:

Overguard has typically been a scary thing that takes some effort to deal with, but Magnetic now turns it against them by turning it into an enormous burst of damage when it breaks, no matter how crappy the weapon you're using is. The feeling of "choosing the right tool for the job"

This is hilarious. 

You literally put a situation where it is the right tool for the right job, and you're trying to paint it as bad because it's... I dunno effective and doesn't rely on just having a multitude of 500% damage buffs? 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, g20g10 said:

The entire time, we have been talking about how good the status rework is, and it has made us even stronger as well as given us more variety. The status rework is great, and we all love it, but the armor rework on enemies makes it pointless since you don't even have to build properly anymore.

So much this, the status rework is awesome, but the enemy EHP rework renders your choices meaningless. If I bring Heat into a Kuva Grineer mission where they resist it, I should be getting hard brick walled on SP, but instead I'm facerolling easier than ever. What was the point of all those dev hours? Why even have an elemental system, or faction resistances, if you can just close your eyes and pick whatever?

1 hour ago, SabreWalrus said:

with 2 green shards

This is another can of worms, everyone who invested in green shards just got screwed over bad. So much Bile just to remove them, and what do I do with them now? If anyone tries to tell me Toxin dots, NO, because enemies are falling over to direct damage before your dots even tick.

1 minute ago, Rexis12 said:

You literally put a situation where it is the right tool for the right job, and you're trying to paint it as bad because it's... I dunno effective and doesn't rely on just having a multitude of 500% damage buffs? 

Maybe killing heavies on SP should rely on building and using buffs, not facerolling just for picking the right element.

[SabreWalrus]

6 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

You literally put a situation where it is the right tool for the right job, and you're trying to paint it as bad because it's... I dunno effective and doesn't rely on just having a multitude of 500% damage buffs? 

I don't know why you keep thinking anyone in this thread is saying the status rework is bad. This thread is about armour scaling and enemies being tissue paper, not about the status rework

Using the electric damage burst from Magnetic to nuke Corpus health after depleting their shields = excellent

That same damage burst also nuking unstripped armoured units after depleting their Overguard because they have such little damage reduction = not excellent

We want variety, not another "one size fits all" like Viral has been