Burnout and how it gets handled by DE

[NickeyGod]

Hello Folks,

So here is the thing. At first i think yes limiting the amount of buyable Arcanes is very reasonable. But what is not reasonable is 2 Things.

1. The sheer amount of Molts you need to even get near maxing the buyouts.

2. The time limitation on the event itself.

Arcane Energize Example:

42x46 -> 1932 Molts / average of 10 Molts per run means 193 runs.

Lets say you do have a average of 8 Minutes per Run which is probably not as much as you really need. this means

8x193 -> 1545 Minutes / 60 -> 25 hours. And that is Arcane Energize as ONLY.

So basically i have to play 25 Hours straight to optain 2 Sets Arcane Energize for me. And even if i don't want 2 whis is fine. I still need to grind at least for 12.5 Hours

2. Here comes the second point and this is probably obvious. When you want ppl to not feel the pressure of obtaining everything you should at least be a bit more genuine with the runtime of the event. 30 Days looks like a lot but its only one month. That is not a lot of time for ppl to get the stuff since they do have jobs, family other hobbies.

 

So my suggestion is. Add more time to the event or let it occur after a certain time again. Like the Thermal Fractures or Ghouls.

 

And DE by the way this is not how you deal with burnout immo.

 

Have a Nice Day !

Nickey

Edited June 19 by NickeyGod

[DismalPanda]

I agree with legendary arcane prices being absurd while they try to "prevent burnout" with purchase limits. 12ish hrs for one set is whats going to burn people out, not a purchase limit.

I just would like for them to reduce the price, half price for 23 motes instead seems better

[IggySnow]

yeah 12 hours for a full legendary arcane is a little crazy. defiantly goes against the "avoiding burnout" reasons they were giving.

[BR31]

kinda crazy indeed, still hope it's a typo.

people just said to me it was 12 on the devstream, really reasonable, but where has over x3.8 come from then?

Edited June 19 by BR31

[kadlis12]

Well, the general store and the clan store offer the same sigil - and at the clan store, you can buy it for a triple price. I think someone raked the price at the last moment - and originally it was much more reasonable.

I did my own calculation at the beginning. Assuming I wanted one set of everything I was missing, my estimation was 60 hours of playtime. That is possible, but nothing I would be willing to plan. So, then I realized I could reasonably well farm 1 set of arcane energize - or - at roughly the same time, get all the lesser arcanes I am still missing.

In the end, I decided to ignore the clan store. I might eventually buy there something, but that is maybe, eventually, something.

[Zaghyr]

Have any of you thought for a second that maybe you're not supposed to be able to get maxed sets of every single arcane? And that extremely rare Legendary arcanes are supposed to be, I don't know, extremely rare. Players have actually deluded themselves into thinking that they ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO farm all of this and it's baffling.

16 hours ago, DismalPanda said:

12ish hrs for one set is whats going to burn people out, not a purchase limit.

Kudos to DE for trying to alleviate burnout, but players burning out is not even remotely DE's fault, it is entirely the player's fault for thinking it is somehow their destiny to farm maxed sets of every single arcane in the store when their are other ways of getting them in game.

[Gaxxian]

hace 9 minutos, Zaghyr dijo:

Have any of you thought for a second that maybe you're not supposed to be able to get maxed sets of every single arcane? And that extremely rare Legendary arcanes are supposed to be, I don't know, extremely rare. Players have actually deluded themselves into thinking that they ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO farm all of this and it's baffling.

Kudos to DE for trying to alleviate burnout, but players burning out is not even remotely DE's fault, it is entirely the player's fault for thinking it is somehow their destiny to farm maxed sets of every single arcane in the store when their are other ways of getting them in game.

Thats not the problem. The problem is that DE lied once again. They said that they wanted to prevent burnout, so they added a cap, yet they also increased to stupid levels the amount of grind to reach that cap, so at the end you would need the same amount of time to have less rewards.

Thats not preventing nothing except players being able to trade for plat. Its another cashgrab movement, as they lately are doing nonstop.

[Gaxxian]

In fact, on the contrary, now even players that didnt wanted to grind so many arcanes in first place will be forced to grind more for longer to reach what they wanted in first place. Isnt just doing nothing to prevent burnout for the more active players, but its also adding burnout to the more casual players.

[DismalPanda]

Quote

They said that they wanted to prevent burnout, so they added a cap, yet they also increased to stupid levels the amount of grind to reach that cap, so at the end you would need the same amount of time to have less rewards.

This is the real problem I have with it. Reduce the price, leave the cap in place.

Edited June 20 by DismalPanda

[NickeyGod]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Gaxxian:

In fact, on the contrary, now even players that didnt wanted to grind so many arcanes in first place will be forced to grind more for longer to reach what they wanted in first place. Isnt just doing nothing to prevent burnout for the more active players, but its also adding burnout to the more casual players.

Exactly this is where it boils down to. I know for sure they dont wanna hand it for free but 12.5 hours for one Arcane really ? Who did the calculation on that.

Edited June 20 by NickeyGod

[MrShvaber]

46 is too much, wish it cost 10-12 molts.

Full farm will take 5 days 8+ hours. Farm only one each arcane + other stuff will take 2 days 19+ hours.

Edited June 20 by MrShvaber

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

A FOMO (fear of missing out) of 1 month with just an arcane energize taking a full day's worth of time (OPTIMALLY, which means most will take at least 1.5 this amount of time), in a game with a LOT of things to grind for or do on a weekly basis, by players who can be reasonably expected to have life commitments most of that month...

...If I were to be candid, I would say that this feels to be more about forced scarcity of the arcanes than it is about preventing burnout. If it was legitimately about preventing burnout, the arcanes would be a lot easier to obtain. But I am not candid enough to claim that >_>

 

[StefanRial]

At the current calculations, you need to play 171 hours straight to buy everything.
The event time is 28 days. That means you have to play the mission non-stop for over 6 hours every day for an entire month.
Since this includes Saturday and Sunday, this is 2h more than a full time job in Germany and you're not allowed to take any brakes. Ready your bottles.

Edited June 20 by StefanRial
Added additional ranting

[StefanRial]

12 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

Have any of you thought for a second that maybe you're not supposed to be able to get maxed sets of every single arcane? And that extremely rare Legendary arcanes are supposed to be, I don't know, extremely rare. Players have actually deluded themselves into thinking that they ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO farm all of this and it's baffling.

Kudos to DE for trying to alleviate burnout, but players burning out is not even remotely DE's fault, it is entirely the player's fault for thinking it is somehow their destiny to farm maxed sets of every single arcane in the store when their are other ways of getting them in game.

Good developers who care for their players know the effects of FOMO and take care to basically "save the player from themselfes". Yes I agree that you are not supposed to get everything, but considering the effects of a limited supply store and the ability to max it out, FOMO and basic player behavior and psychology, this design encourages severe time devotion and does nothing to prevent burnout.
Yes, players ideally control themselfes, but realistically they don't. It is important to work with what is the reality, not the untrue ideal.

[Clegz]

Cheapest Arcane 3 Motes

Arcane Energize 46 Motes

15x the price

Time investment needed not reasonable, but we all know it´s not the first time that that´s the case and it´s tedious. The good stuff is locked behind arbitrary gates for nolifers. Even if you don´t want to farm everything the shop offers you´ll burnout farming the expensive arcanes. These kind of designs raise stresslevels and frustration.

And the fact that you can farm those arcanes via other 2 ways doesn´t help because they´re also locked behind rng and imense farm to dissolve mechanics and lets you play a lottery.

I find this predatory to be honest...

Hey DE it´s 2024 wake the f up...

[MrShvaber]

57 минут назад, Clegz сказал:

Cheapest Arcane 3 Motes

1 Mote actually

So 46x price.

On previous operation legendary arcanes cost 12, so we waste time like almost 4 arcances but takes only 1.

Nice "preventing Operation burnout".

[trst]

People want to keep talking about how many hours it'll take to get the arcanes. But what I want to know is how many hours is it without the event?

If the grind is too much and there's a better alternative then go for the alternative.

If the only alternatives would take, on average, far longer then why complain when it's already faster?

 

Personally I can't care one way or another what DE does with them as I've had my arcanes for years. But this seems like a strange thing to be complaining about if they are a faster farm than Eidolons/Vosfor/wherever else they drop.

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

12 minutes ago, trst said:

People want to keep talking about how many hours it'll take to get the arcanes. But what I want to know is how many hours is it without the event?

If the grind is too much and there's a better alternative then go for the alternative.

If the only alternatives would take, on average, far longer then why complain when it's already faster?

...I mean that is literally the point of why this is problematic. It is BECAUSE of how long it would take to normally get these items through non-event means, that people feel compelled to do BotB. Both sources of them in conventional content are very out-of-the-way, time-intensive or time-locked, and require a know-how and investment that normally doesn't come naturally to game progression...

For most players, orphix or eidlons are simply not an option. These events are the only way they can EVER reasonably obtain one of these arcanes.

[MekaDovah]

16 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

Have any of you thought for a second that maybe you're not supposed to be able to get maxed sets of every single arcane? And that extremely rare Legendary arcanes are supposed to be, I don't know, extremely rare. Players have actually deluded themselves into thinking that they ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO farm all of this and it's baffling.

Kudos to DE for trying to alleviate burnout, but players burning out is not even remotely DE's fault, it is entirely the player's fault for thinking it is somehow their destiny to farm maxed sets of every single arcane in the store when their are other ways of getting them in game.

Honestly, with that logic, why make it possible to buy them in the first place in this manner? Either let us get them this way or don't. 

Plus arcanes like Arcane Energize feel largely power crept. I never finished maxing it out and don't even use it that much anymore. 

That said, acquiring things is the entire point of the game so that may be why people feel the need to get them and would like to in a way that isn't saddled with lengthy, obnoxious boss battles and lousy RNG so they actually see what these things do for once. Obviously if there's an easier way to get something, that's what people are going to do. Which is also how one avoids burn out: by taking a shorter, quicker path to getting an objective done, not going through needless padding.

Edited June 21 by MekaDovah

[trst]

27 minutes ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

...I mean that is literally the point of why this is problematic. It is BECAUSE of how long it would take to normally get these items through non-event means, that people feel compelled to do BotB. Both sources of them in conventional content are very out-of-the-way, time-intensive or time-locked, and require a know-how and investment that normally doesn't come naturally to game progression...

For most players, orphix or eidlons are simply not an option. These events are the only way they can EVER reasonably obtain one of these arcanes.

Then why is it so awful to spend a dozen hours to max out an arcane you'd have no opportunity to farm otherwise? Especially when the time to invest that dozen hours is a month long and this isn't the first event of this type.

 

But also engaging in the event is not the only "reasonable" way to get them. All the arcanes are tradable while there's many ways to farm plat. Plus their prices will drop during and for some time after the event which makes it even easier to finish a set.

Also I don't see how vosfor isn't reasonable. That alone turned all arcanes in that system into entirely passive farms. Yes it'll take a very long time to max a legendary arcane solely from vosfor but that's still progress for anyone who can't/refuses to do the regular content. 

[Skynet66]

They NEED to decrease the prices of the legendary arcanes. They've done this similarly in Gargoyle cries and now they do the same problem but with a purchase cap. They aren't preventing burnout really but just preventing people from interfering with arcane pricing on the market.
Choose a struggle do you want people to burnout farming for arcanes because now this steep cost legitimizes that mindset.

Im disappointed by the operation overall. DE took no time to fix loot exploits but have yet to even address the absurd pricing they set in the operation.
I'm just getting some skins and not interacting with the operation overall, this is a sad state for DE because they have in the past been genuine about stopping people from sinking money and hours into slot machines and grind that ruins people's health, e.g. when they removed the randomization of fur patterns and rerolling with plat from ages ago, like 2014-15.

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

1 hour ago, trst said:

But also engaging in the event is not the only "reasonable" way to get them.

Yes, it is.

1 hour ago, trst said:

All the arcanes are tradable while there's many ways to farm plat. Plus their prices will drop during and for some time after the event which makes it even easier to finish a set.

The fact that their prices drop so much during the event is proof that despite how unreasonable the event is, its still better than the normal way to get them, firsthand AND secondhand... Which makes the FOMO even stronger...

People shouldn't have to feel like they should play THIS much of warframe, just to get something easier than it normally would be to get.

[Clegz]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb MrShvaber:

1 Mote actually

So 46x price.

On previous operation legendary arcanes cost 12, so we waste time like almost 4 arcances but takes only 1.

Nice "preventing Operation burnout".

Oh really? That makes this whole issue even worse.

There is not one single argument that can justifiy this decision. It´s utterly ridiculous!

[3xt1inct]

I rly don't see the problem here, maybe this sounds a bit unsensitive or you find it a bit controversial, but during gargoyle's cry getting a set of a legendary arcane took longer as it does in Belly of the Beast, it is just that they made the lower tiers much much easier to get, which means the comparative time to get them has increased but not total time.
P.E. a successful run at the assassination from gargoyle's cry took around 8 mins if you had a good team running and it took 3-4 runs, to get 1 copy of a rank 0 legendary arcane.
belly of the beast takes about 6-7 mins with an open lobby and low 6 with a good team, still it will take you 4 runs for 1 copy of a rank 0 legendary arcane, however there is also the alerts which give 15 volatile motes for an avg time of 4 mins (spy, exterminate, capture take litterally 1 min and a half).
Botb will land you the legendary arcane faster than ever before. Also because the ascension mission is much harder to grief (leech resistant).

for every alert (sometimes a literal minute for 15 volatile) you get 15 bronze arcanes, 15-5 silver arcanes or 3 gold arcanes. In gargoyle's cry you got 1 bronze guarantee, 1 silver with luck and for a gold you needed at least 2 runs and got 3 golds for 4 runs (every run is 7 mins minimum(fastest completion time i have seen proof of)). The effort needed for lower tiered arcanes got lowered drastically (the effort for a legendary arcane got lowered, but not as much) for this event compared to past ones. They are fighting burnout by eliminating the one that is most common with these events, new players grinding out lower tiered arcanes. 

so lets list how long it takes to get a legendary set in botb and compare it to gargoyle's cry, excluding mission alerts (due to gargoyle's cry and most previous events not having alerts) and assuming a good running team for SP (arcanes/runtime of 1 successful mission):

• bronze arcanes:  in botb avg 12 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 11 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 1.3 arcanes/8 mins or avg 2 hrs 9 mins for a set
• silver arcanes : in botb avg 4 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 32 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.8 arcanes/ 8 mins  or avg 3 hrs 30 mins for a set
• gold arcanes: in botb avg 2.4 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 53 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.66 arcanes/8 mins or avg 4 hrs 15 mins for a set
• legendary arcanes: in botb avg 0.26 arcanes/ 6 mins full set in avg 8 hrs 4 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.3 arcanes/8 mins or avg 9 hrs 20 mins for a set.
• Just to bring the point across that with mission alerts those times for the arcanes in botb go down a lot

Yes the legendaries take more effort to obtain, that is why they are legendary, why are you complaining about getting those great items faster than ever before?

Edited June 21 by 3xt1inct
clarification and more accessible way of displaying argument

[NickeyGod]

I think no one understands my concerns. It's not actually about the time to aquire stuff. Its about that they said that they want ppl to not burnout but putting this in is literally the reason for ppl to burn out. They literally just straight lied to our faces.

Edited June 21 by NickeyGod