Can we have a non-pregnant Jade skin?

[quxier]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Stalker gets pregnant (he is female, Jade is male)

this sounds like an argument for having warframe genders?

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

I get what you're saying you can handwave anything into existance with "space magic" (I mean the void)

Just lore wise. Gameplay or mechanically (engine/system/machine (current) limitations) is another thing. I wouldn't mind simple skins (not gender changing). There were some suggestion about black Excal default skin for teammates. That would be nice for some machines in Relays. But otherwise I don't feel like it's ok. I think they don't want make 'gender skins' as it's more problematic. Not sure about current stance on this topic. They probably would do another frame because that brings more money.

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

do you suggest maybe (disgruntled) players would be happy with a "male jade" instead?

Nah, I don't know. However seeing as simple pregnacy affect people I wouldn't be surprised. People are just weird. They are expecting so much for 18+ title.

 

 

[WanderingJoe]

I dont think expanding the request to have the baby bump be an auxiliary attachment into every warframe should have a gender switch is a reasonable one. It also works against some of the people arguing for why the auxiliary toggle should be ignored because it would be something that would require more manpower on DE's part. I do think it would be interesting if your arguments interacted in another thread though. 

And for the special person who made the point that even having this discussion on the forums was detrimental to DE because DE would have to place someone to look over the discussions... that's the point of forums in the first place. Rebecca litterally did that as her previous position. It's what our courent community manager has as a job.

If you're reading this, Hi Megan! Hope you're day is going well!

Edited Friday at 02:37 PM by WanderingJoe

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2024-06-25 at 10:58 PM, Luigispikachu said:

honestly we should just get louder for every troll that tries to gaslight us into shutting up

Surprised gaslighting is common here

Isn't that against the rules?

[_Anise_]

35 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

I dont think expanding the request to have the baby bump be an auxiliary attachment into every warframe should have a gender switch is a reasonable one

Based on my observations, individuals seeking a "belly toggle" (I will referee to as "model swap" for clarity, as the core part of a mesh cannot be simply switched off like a light or a decorative element) appear to seek a controlled debate where their logic can easily prevail. They gravitate towards arguments that fit neatly within predetermined boundaries and avoid examples like hidryn's bulkiness. When discussions veer towards examples like that and cite artistic integrity, it tends to conflict with their established views on the ideal approach usually leading them to dismiss the entire argument.

To date, I have not come across a compelling argument that doesn't essentially reduce to straightforward statements such as "I dislike her appearance" or "I don't feel comfortable playing her." The reality is that individuals are not obligated to play as her; it's as simple as that.

Edited Friday at 03:12 PM by _Anise_

[Luigispikachu]

34 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Surprised gaslighting is common here

Isn't that against the rules?

it should be, but then peoples could get around that by arguing that they aren't gaslighting, because it would be hard to prove. or I think it might be I could be wrong

[Luigispikachu]

dunno why it double posted but aigh't

Edited Friday at 03:38 PM by Luigispikachu
can't delete duped post so y'know

[SirKeksalot]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

Based on my observations, individuals seeking a "belly toggle" (I will referee to as "model swap" for clarity, as the core part of a mesh cannot be simply switched off like a light or a decorative element) appear to seek a controlled debate where their logic can easily prevail. They gravitate towards arguments that fit neatly within predetermined boundaries and avoid examples like hidryn's bulkiness. When discussions veer towards examples like that and cite artistic integrity, it tends to conflict with their established views on the ideal approach usually leading them to dismiss the entire argument.

Or--hear me out--artistic integrity has nothing to do with any of this, and leaving the original design in while adding an alt version where her belly's flattened out doesn't sacrifice the integrity or merit of the original. I mean, you could say the same about gore. That's an artistic choice and it arguably works to the game's advantage to be brutal and show people getting cut in half and bleeding everywhere, it hammers in that the Origin system is a violent and treacherous place, and you are a force of destruction that stands between order and chaos. The option to turn off something triggering doesn't mess with that. Same with Jade, I believe the belly brings it all together, though I admittedly find it hard to praise her without getting derailed and sentimental.

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

To date, I have not come across a compelling argument that doesn't essentially reduce to straightforward statements such as "I dislike her appearance" or "I don't feel comfortable playing her." The reality is that individuals are not obligated to play as her; it's as simple as that.

Not a great solution for people who enjoy her playstyle but not her design. And you can extrude that logic to any criticism. Don't like another design? A mechanic? A story beat? Just leave! Except...criticism, when well-intentioned, is meant to be useful. It should be aimed at making something better or more accessible. I should be able to critique things that I don't think are good design decisions, or suggest things I think would be good for the game and/or its players. Whether those ideas make the whole game or a single Warframe more accessible and fun, if it would help someone at all without taking from others, we should all be willing to hear it out.

[Luigispikachu]

honestly sirkeks, if you weren't here with your perspective this whole discussion would feel much more helpless.

[SirKeksalot]

7 minutes ago, Luigispikachu said:

honestly sirkeks, if you weren't here with your perspective this whole discussion would feel much more helpless.

I don't know how much I'm really helping with anything at all, but all I wanna do is try to be a voice of reason and advocate for people who are understandably making a very small ask. I chimed in initially because I was afraid of Jade's design being remembered as a mistake, and after another user opened up, I was inspired to tell my own story while also saying that, yeah, you can like Jade's design and should get to use it, but this thing I love doesn't have to come at the cost of another player's appreciation for the frame. I will be happy if you can all get to a point where you get even half the joy I get from her, even if it takes a new feature to make that happen. Feelings matter, and I'm sick of people acting like they don't just because you can't reach out and touch them. It's a big part of what's wrong with the world.

[_Anise_]

1 hour ago, SirKeksalot said:

Or--hear me out--artistic integrity has nothing to do with any of this, and leaving the original design in while adding an alt version where her belly's flattened out doesn't sacrifice the integrity or merit of the original.

If the initial design reflects the developer's vision and they alter it based on player feedback, wouldn't that essentially compromise their artistic integrity to cater to player demands? something like a gore filter might be in a game from day one to get passed by regional censorship which I agree is a compromise of integrity too but a necessary one. the game may otherwise not exist in certain regions or platforms otherwise.

1 hour ago, SirKeksalot said:

Not a great solution for people who enjoy her playstyle but not her design. And you can extrude that logic to any criticism. Don't like another design? A mechanic? A story beat? Just leave! Except...criticism, when well-intentioned, is meant to be useful. It should be aimed at making something better or more accessible. I should be able to critique things that I don't think are good design decisions, or suggest things I think would be good for the game and/or its players. Whether those ideas make the whole game or a single Warframe more accessible and fun, if it would help someone at all without taking from others, we should all be willing to hear it out.

There are several frames that I either find unappealing in terms of their appearance or mechanics, so I simply choose not to play them. I keep them for collection purposes. In this situation, I believe it's similar; she is still new and attractive, and everyone wants to have her, even if they don't truly connect with her, I feel this is where a lot of the feedback is coming from.

I tried to make an analogy with Hildryn but it was dismissed by different people as false equivalents, whataboutisms or just a disingenuous argument, but you see reasonable so maybe I will ask for your take, some women could have trauma related to the men/masculine form, they may be uncomfortable with how Hildryn looks, should it be addressed by adding toggle that turns off her muscle and makes her petite? (my answer is obviously no)

I don't think its a disingenuous argument and while not the exact same thing I do see parallels between the two examples, what do you think?

1 hour ago, Luigispikachu said:

honestly sirkeks, if you weren't here with your perspective this whole discussion would feel much more helpless.

It's comforting to have someone who appears understanding and supportive, even if we may not see eye to eye. I don't want you to feel alone in your perspective. I've experienced similar sentiments when others accused me of being insincere.

[SirKeksalot]

20 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

If the initial design reflects the developer's vision and they alter it based on player feedback, wouldn't that essentially compromise their artistic integrity to cater to player demands? something like a gore filter might be in a game from day one to get passed by regional censorship which I agree is a compromise of integrity too but a necessary one. the game may otherwise not exist in certain regions or platforms otherwise.

Every balance or design change is, if you think about it, a compromise to artistic integrity. In fact, as an aspiring writer, I can speak to this--I've gotten feedback on what I've written that calls for change, things like shifting around the protagonist's role in events, and so forth. Is that compromising my artistic integrity to cater to this feedback and amending my art based on what other people would prefer to read? I don't see it that way at all. I see it as other people telling me what they think and feel about what I made and giving well-intentioned suggestions as to how I can make it resonate better with as many people as I can. And here, we're asking for a switch, really. You can go back to the original Jade at your discretion by the use of that switch, and the original art will remain intact--it'll just be optionally more palatable. The actual quest and story around Jade doesn't have to change at all, only the one we get, if we so choose.

20 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

There are several frames that I either find unappealing in terms of their appearance or mechanics, so I simply choose not to play them. I keep them for collection purposes. In this situation, I believe it's similar; she is still new and attractive, and everyone wants to have her, even if they don't truly connect with her, I feel this is where a lot of the feedback is coming from.

I tried to make an analogy with Hildryn but it was dismissed by different people as false equivalents, whataboutisms or just a disingenuous argument, but you see reasonable so maybe I will ask for your take, some women could have trauma related to the men/masculine form, they may be uncomfortable with how Hildryn looks, should it be addressed by adding toggle that turns off her muscle and makes her petite? (my answer is obviously no)

I don't think its a disingenuous argument and while not the exact same thing I do see parallels between the two examples, what do you think?

I don't know. I don't see people actually saying that, so I don't know who genuinely needs this accommodation. I think different body types should be celebrated--as is the case with pregnancy--so frames like Hildryn and Grendel are great from my perspective. And I would hope that maybe players with those body types feel seen for it, especially now that I understand how powerful that is. If someone has trauma that is triggered by any Warframe's design, we can't justify acting on it until we know that these people are affected. They're welcome to speak up, and then we may have this conversation if they do.

I understand what your point is, and I don't think you're being disingenuous by making it, especially after seeing what I consider truly dishonest talking points on here. But we can't solve problems we don't even know people have. As I've said before, how could anyone know to accommodate my insecurities with Jade before she was on the table? That convo would have been fruitless until I spoke up, and it never occurred to me to do so.

Edited Friday at 07:05 PM by SirKeksalot

[Stormandreas]

22 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

this made me realize something,  there isn't a past version of the jade warframe that wasn't pregnant, so also from a lore standpoint it does not make sense giving her a flat form? though I will acknowledge I don't really know how lore friendly skin are.

Skins often aren't lore friendly. Case and point, Excalibur Proto Skin and Nyx Nemisis Skin.

DE confirmed that Dark Sector and WF are NOT in the same universe, and the those skins, especially the Excal Proto skin, is a model port from Dark Sector to pay homage to WFs origins.

Tennogen skins
Deluxe skins
Heirloom skins

Generally, they aren't lore friendly anyway, so the lore doesn't really stop skins.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2024-06-28 at 4:35 PM, Luigispikachu said:

it should be, but then peoples could get around that by arguing that they aren't gaslighting, because it would be hard to prove. or I think it might be I could be wrong

Indeed, all you can do is hope for the best and report em

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

On 2024-06-29 at 1:05 AM, _Anise_ said:

To date, I have not come across a compelling argument that doesn't essentially reduce to straightforward statements such as "I dislike her appearance" or "I don't feel comfortable playing her." The reality is that individuals are not obligated to play as her; it's as simple as that.

Dislike and discomfort associated to the titular matter are only the symptoms of the issue at hand. 

When you start asking WHY do players dislike her appearance and WHY do players find it uncomfortable playing as her, you will see the compelling reasons why DE should at the very lease acknowledge the situation. 

[_Anise_]

I recently enjoyed watching a heartwarming Warframe stream featuring a host who exuded kindness, courtesy, and warmth. The host encouraged viewers to share their fashion creations, with some showcasing stunning jade-themed designs. It was a truly delightful experience to witness her appreciation for players' "cute" Jade fashions.

I understand the reasons behind their silence on the matter. It seems that most people fall into two main groups: those who are either indifferent or genuinely fond of Jade. For Digital Extremes to address the concerns of the discontent minority, they would need to either acknowledge fault or stand firm in their decision. Both options risk validating the vocal dissatisfied minority, potentially sparking further resistance against a creative choice that falls within their artistic freedom. Moreover, it could establish a precedent for players influencing future design decisions.

[WanderingJoe]

The precedent was set beforehand with Styanax's tassles on his deluxe skin, which was certainly less discussed than Jade's design has.

[_Anise_]

Were the tassels altered in response to player outrage, or were they introduced as a toggle feature?

Regardless, I believe that equating nipple tassels, which are a cosmetic item, to a part of someone's body is not a fair comparison.

[TheCursedUltima]

Agreed, Jade's pregnancy is a significant characteristic of Jade, while the tassels of Styanax are not.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

they would need to either acknowledge faut

Since when did they EVER do this?

[WanderingJoe]

I merely meant that they were changes as a result of feedback. I know that our request is not to the same scale but to say there is no precedent at all isn't true

Edited Sunday at 06:50 PM by WanderingJoe

[Martaskis]

Ok I agree on this not making sense with the lore, but here is the thing when has any of the "Lore" every been chronically accurate to what ever DE wants it to be. I am all for this following the lore, but how did stalker and jade do the.....you know, never mind. 

We forgot the the ideas of energy for the Warframes come in all shape and sizes. 

[WanderingJoe]

3 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

but how did stalker and jade do the....

They did it before the got warframified

 

Aldo, what does size and shape of energy have to do with warframes?

Edited Sunday at 09:42 PM by WanderingJoe

[_Anise_]

is there any proof that stynax deluxe change was a result of player feedback? In Devstream 177, they showcased his concept art and Blender model, and in the following Devstream 178 they presented his final in-game model, the first thing mentioned was the option to turn off the tassels. I am struggling to find evidence that this adjustment was solely based on player input or if it was a decision they arrived at independently because the option existed on release.

Anyway, this seems to be veering off-topic into a semantic argument. Let me rephrase: There is no precedent, to my knowledge, for DE significantly altering a Warframe's core aesthetic design solely based on player feedback is there?

 

Edited Sunday at 10:52 PM by _Anise_

[WanderingJoe]

Let me accept that premise then and respond; So before it's never been done, we should never try?

[Luka-Song]

On 2024-06-24 at 4:51 PM, Pneumanoultra said:

The fact that so many of her animations focus on her belly makes her feel less like an angel themed warframe and more like a pregnancy themed warframe. If you happen to like that then good for you, but it ain't what any of us signed up for.

Pretty much this. Quest aside, my main hang-up with the frame itself was that I was expecting biblically-accurate angelframe and was being hyped up for it by the devs themselves, then got bait-and-switched for pregnantframe.

If they wanted to make a motherframe or pregnancyframe, that's fine, it's not my cup of tea but it could be interesting and I guess other people might like it, and they do dual-theme frames all the time, but this is the first time they deliberately hid the theme of the warframe and tricked the players, and the two themes this time do not match at all in my opinion, so I'm just left feeling the frame did not meet the expectations built up by the developers themselves. It feels similar to when they were building revenant to be a vampire-frame but then rebuilt him as eidolon-frame, but at least they were straightforward with that one.

I would also really like a toggle for the belly, and if they want to make a true motherframe later, or make a deluxe skin for Jade that doubles down on the pregnancy, that'd be cool, but for now all I want is angel-frame.