Jade is making me and a lot of other people uncomfortable

[SneakyErvin]

Just wanna point out one thing regarding this that came from the thread about the phobia "issue" with Jade.

Nearly every frame has something that would trigger some phobia. What makes people affected by Jade through their phobia any more important than the guy having thoughts of fear or terror about a specific beast, element or germs? Should we ask to have Embers flaming head removed, or fires in the game in general? Remove the rocky features of Qorvex and Atlas. Remove the electrical effects from Gyre and Volt? Turn Containment Wall invisible?

No matter where we look there would be a phobia to trigger in WF. So to the people thinking Jade should be based on something like that, please stop thinking you are special in comparison to the rest. 

[WanderingJoe]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

also only applies to a small minority

You know, when dealing with personal issue, people have a tendency not to speak up. In a world where people are so out of pocket that you could lose your job over even commentating on a controversial issue, I can't even be mad that more people aren't posting. All I know is that I get a lot of people willing to talk about this when they don't think they're in an environment where they'd be shutdown and/or suffer backlash from talking about the topic. 

This is neither here nor there though. These threads are more about appealing to DE than convincing other players. It's okay if our request doesn't make sense to other players who don't share the same concerns

Edited Tuesday at 10:43 PM by WanderingJoe

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

You know, when dealing with personal issue, people have a tendency not to speak up. In a world where people are so out of pocket that you could lose your job over even commentating on a controversial issue, I can't even be mad that more people aren't posting. All I know is that I get a lot of people willing to talk about this when they don't think they're in an environment where they'd be shutdown and/or suffer backlash from talking about the topic. 

This is neither hear nor there though. These threads are more about appealing to DE than convincing other players. It's okay if our request doesn't make sense to other players who don't share the same concerns

But the main question here is. Why should DE listen to these appeals? What makes Jade special among all other frames and their very apparent ties to a multitude of other phobias or simple dislikes (moral or otherwise).

The whole "pregnant woman in battle is wrong!" dies at the door since first of she isnt pregnant in battle (baby already born and Jade dead dead dead), secondly you are playing a #*!%ing child soldier already controlling husks of flesh and metal with their mind subdued (by you!!) in order to use them in warfare. You also annihilate your enemies with a massive array of already extremely illegal methods, from the minor ones like using shotguns to the more drastic, like using chemical solutions to kill. So the "moral" crowd should already shut up if they are playing the game to begin with.

And for the phobia crowd. Every frame is as phobia inducing, or more, as Jade.

So again, what makes you, the Jade appealing crowd, more special than the rest? And how come Jade troubles you when controlling a mincontrolling child soldier doesnt?

[WanderingJoe]

Well... Why not go talk about those phobias in the section of the forum for feedback about those warframes then? This is the section of the forums to talk about Jade, so we're giving feedback on Jade.

And most people know we're coming into this game to involve themes of war and bioweapons. Its practically poster art for the game and people knew what they were getting into. Not so with jade's surprise.

Edited Tuesday at 04:56 PM by WanderingJoe

[SirKeksalot]

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which would still not make it a case to change anything about regarding Jade. And it isnt positive it is actually that phobia that is tied to it, since it is just speculation. It also only applies to a small minority within the already rare overall phobia. We are already looking at a minority of the rare phobia incase the OP isnt actively pregnant, then if OP is triggered by the aestethics of Jade you are looking at an even smaller minority for that phobia.

There is no reason to single out Jade when in reality nearly every frame has a visual trigger for a severe phobia. Not to mention large parts of the rest of the game that also triggers a wide variety of them if people are at a point where they get affected by virtual imagry. Simple things as water, fire, rocks, lightning/electrics etc. that could potentially trigger a wide range of phobias if a person reacts to the virtual. Not to mention when we get deeper into it, such as specific parts, like Containment Wall, Rumblers, or just the visual state of Atlas and Qorvex alone, Volt/Gyre, Ignis or Hyekka Masters/Napalms shooting fire etc. Or even Saryn and what she visually represents with her skills. Then you also have people with phobias of animals or creatures, that would be effected equally to this by the kraken, venari or titania/her butterflies, or maybe even Oberon.

Simply to many potential visual triggers if you are to cater to one. One where you also need to look straight at it willingly in a special way, since you can only see it if you are willingly looking at the frame in the arsenal and click "Glory". In the gameplay you can never see it, because when Glory is active you cannot look at her from the front even. So you never even see it. As opposed to Atlas, Qorvex or Ember, where they are always visually present towards those phobias. 

I mean, it is insanity in itself to ask for changes like these. Because no one is more important than anyone else, no phobia is more real or relevant than another. Oh and should we forget about everyone with actual PTSD that still manage to play the game with the sound of explosions and gunfire going off?

Said it before, I'll say it again: where are people talking about those phobias? Jade has gotten people to say something here and now. We know, for a fact, that people exist who have that reaction to Jade because they've said as much. That's why we're having this discussion. Your hypotheticals don't matter because nobody's said anything. We can't talk about what to do with criticisms nobody has openly made.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

It is impossible to cater to everyone, we all know that we cannot modify the world to suit every single person's specific needs, views or moralities, sometimes these conflict with each other, and some other times... they are better skipped, but when a large amount of people agree that something doesn't feel right and want it to change, why oppose to them getting an option to opt out of it, if it doesn't affect any of us in any manner?
And I mean literally any.

It is clear many players do not like the idea of carrying a visually pregnant warframe to battle, and yes you can tell me she isn't really pregnant while some of her animations are clearly caressing her belly or showing affection towards it, besides the presence of it, so unless Jade really likes her tummy and to randomly show it for some reason, I am going to maintain the idea of this being a visual representation of pregnancy on a frame, and the glorification of this step of life, which honestly, is very poetical and even beautiful dare I say. Still idk what the glowing orb is supposed to be now if that is what sonny was.

I've spoken already about this, though I've come to make peace with it and don't feel wrong to play the frame, but stills, I do not like the idea of carrying this to a battlefield, even if her gameplay doesn't involve any reference of her this thematic design as part of it.
Thanks to my colour palette choice all that I can think about is that Jade ate far too many vitoplasts!
There is a phenomenal variety of violent and abhorrent stylistic design choices in Warframe, and honestly as a sucker for rust, dust & guts, I like almost all of them for they are either cool or elegant in their own way. It is why I love Kullervo or Atlas so much after all, they do be like me fr fr.

At the end of the day, I don't really think about the tummy at all, I just think "Hey, I am playing Jade which means I am immortal, deal lotsa damage, and get to buff my team as well. What a wonderful frame (suspicious they haven't nerfed her yet 🤨)", so getting a toggle harms no one, and won't affect the frame at all, it's a win-not lose situation, though I'm not really sure why some seem so opposed to the "not lose" part of it?
It's not 1 person asking for this, there's clearly a good amount, even if we can't know the opinion of all of us, registered losers.

[_Anise_]

1 hour ago, WanderingJoe said:

Well... Why not go talk about those phobias in the section of the forum for feedback about those warframes then?

Are you truly not understanding the point, or are you intentionally disregarding it? Let me simplify it into a straightforward question: Why do you dismiss concerns about Grendel triggering weight phobias or Saryn triggering germaphobes, yet you support changing Jade that triggers tocophobias?

Do you not see the inconsistency in this approach?

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:23 PM by _Anise_

[Digital_Malz]

59 minutes ago, Xycelium said:

When did I say anything about gameplay? I'm purely talking from a character design and story standpoint.

And why should I not be able to disagree? And why should my disagreeing imply that I have no empathy? You do realize that I can understand the disturbances that one can feel while also having a firm belief that not everything has to be accounted for because of such feelings.

Carrying that big belly or not won't affect anything about Jade, will it? Our Jade is not the same Jade that died while giving birth. "Oh, she's a copy". If she's a copy, it really makes sense for me to remove that part when I put her to build in my foundry. So, yeah, it totally makes sense for the "character design". We know Jade, we know her story. It's really easy to accommodate a different point of view about her belly using "character desing" as basis.

And, yes, I understand and agree with "You do realize that I can understand the disturbances that one can feel while also having a firm belief that not everything has to be accounted for because of such feelings.". I totally agree that if we are going to take into account everyone's feelings, we won't have a game to play.

On the other hand, have you seen how many players have been speaking about the discomfort Jade's pregnancy have been causing? Don't you think that when a matter gets to this level, we might really be facing something that should be addressed?

Why do we have a toggle on/off for GORE? Have you aver asked yourself? Have you ever seen someone complaining about the excess of Gore in WF? No. Maybe because we have the toggle, or maybe because nobody really cares. And do you care having this option? Would you argue that by its design, it's incorrect to have this option in your Options tab? I don't think so.

Then, you have lots of people manifesting their discomfort. What are you doing? Giving them character design explanation. You know that phobias and traumas are beyond technical explanations? It seems to me lack of empathy. Sorry if it's offensive to you.

Jades design brings to discussion a much deeper debate than simply "it's ugly, I don't like it". It brings to light a very delicate theme: "motherhood". So delicate, I've seen people feeling uncomfortable with a frame design for the first time (ok, I've been playing for 2 years only). It's such a delicate theme, that even DE decided to have a disclaimer before the quest. And NOBODY is asking to remove the quest. People are just asking for the option of a button to remove for themselves that belly. Having the option of removing it won't force you to do that. You really think it's an essential part of her design? Keep it. But let others who have real reasons to feel uncomfortable, to remove it.

I myself don't see a problem on her belly, it causes me no discomfort at all. Honestly, I'd remove because I just don't find it aesthetically nice. But, yes, it's about empathy. For couples that went through miscarriage, for example, or any other serious trauma, it must be unsettling going to battlefield with a pregnant frame. 

[Sirihitti]

1 час назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

Just wanna point out one thing regarding this that came from the thread about the phobia "issue" with Jade.

Nearly every frame has something that would trigger some phobia. What makes people affected by Jade through their phobia any more important than the guy having thoughts of fear or terror about a specific beast, element or germs? Should we ask to have Embers flaming head removed, or fires in the game in general? Remove the rocky features of Qorvex and Atlas. Remove the electrical effects from Gyre and Volt? Turn Containment Wall invisible?

No matter where we look there would be a phobia to trigger in WF. So to the people thinking Jade should be based on something like that, please stop thinking you are special in comparison to the rest. 

Am I understanding correctly, there is no such topic where you can say “hmm, perhaps we have gone too far, and it would be worth drawing a line here”?
Of all the creepiest things for me in WF over 5 years of playing, I remember only two cases - holes in Wisp’s legs (I just tried not to look at it) and the dizzying animation of invisibility on Ivar Prime, which caused physical motion sickness.
Jade's concept surpassed everything. Many write that in teasers and the general presentation she was imagined as an angel, a beautiful epic feminine character. The result is a character with a painful experience to whom we cannot be indifferent. You can sympathize with her lore and tragedy, and the players going through this quest experienced everything together with the Stalker. But by leaving Jade in this permanent state, it’s as if we didn’t complete something, didn’t resolve the global storyline.
Telling players that they don’t like it means they themselves are to blame and this is their problem - this is a little tyranny.
You don’t argue solely for the love of arguing, do you?

[Digital_Malz]

3 hours ago, Xycelium said:

When did I say anything about gameplay? I'm purely talking from a character design and story standpoint.

And why should I not be able to disagree? And why should my disagreeing imply that I have no empathy? You do realize that I can understand the disturbances that one can feel while also having a firm belief that not everything has to be accounted for because of such feelings.

You're totally entitled to disagree.

My question for you is very simple: If I had the option of toggling off her belly, and did it. How would it compromise YOUR game?

If you it doesn't compromise your game, and you'll insist on "character design". In my opinion, it is total lack of empathy. Simple as that. 

[SeriousHawk22]

On 2024-06-20 at 8:48 PM, (XBOX)Spiderwick3666 said:

Jade is pregnant and fighting and many people on reddit and other sights (myself included) don't particularly enjoy the child death and playing as a pregnant woman in a game where you run around blowing up ships, not that I don't like pregnancy in story telling particularly it's just this is really weird that we're playing as one killing people, and if there was like a alternate skin that doesn't change anything but does remove this uncomfortable looking energy spear on her stomach that would much appreciated. Another thing is that it also sucks when customizing her. 

You should seek for professional help

[WanderingJoe]

Just had this interaction on the Warframe Discord. there are plenty of people who dont use the forums who are having the same issues.

Edited Tuesday at 07:57 PM by WanderingJoe

[Luigispikachu]

6 minutes ago, SeriousHawk22 said:

You should seek for professional help

.... For a natural human response? Are you sure about that?

[Luigispikachu]

Once again Joe is out there being the hero we need

[_Anise_]

On 2024-07-01 at 2:30 PM, Vaalyah said:

, if people showed problems with X in the game and the fix is nothing complicated (as removing some polygons from a 3D model), yes, DE would be amazing to help the vast majority of people possible enjoyining the game. Why not?

It's a slippery slope. Hypothetically, if they were to introduce a non-pregnant Jade, I'd also like to see a slender Grendel and Hildryn, maybe even a female Ash, Umbra, Nezha, Nekros, and Wukong. But as you've mentioned yourself (or someone did) there's a need to draw a line somewhere. should that line really be based on personal dislikes or phobias, rather than being left to DE's digression?

To be honest, I might be more receptive to the idea of a "gene masking" kit for Warframes. it could address all phobias by masking any theme to be something else, preserving the core essence of each frame. it's different to changing how the core of a frame looks. though I don't think that would be a popular suggestion among players either.

  

37 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

Just had this interaction on the Warframe Discord

I don't want other people having a toggle to change how I look! which is what I take away from the Hogwarts arachnophobia bit

Edited Tuesday at 08:33 PM by _Anise_

[Xycelium]

4 hours ago, Digital_Malz said:

Carrying that big belly or not won't affect anything about Jade, will it? Our Jade is not the same Jade that died while giving birth. "Oh, she's a copy". If she's a copy, it really makes sense for me to remove that part when I put her to build in my foundry. So, yeah, it totally makes sense for the "character design". We know Jade, we know her story. It's really easy to accommodate a different point of view about her belly using "character desing" as basis.

I feel like you've ignored my past point about how we copy other Warframes 1:1 from their lore / story counterpart for a very long time. The only case we've had of a Warframe getting a past variation of themselves as a skin (as far as I remember) is Valkyr. I guess to an extent Prime variations can count, but I think it's understandable to consider them as separate counterparts.

4 hours ago, Digital_Malz said:

Why do we have a toggle on/off for GORE? Have you aver asked yourself? Have you ever seen someone complaining about the excess of Gore in WF? No. Maybe because we have the toggle, or maybe because nobody really cares. And do you care having this option? Would you argue that by its design, it's incorrect to have this option in your Options tab? I don't think so.

The reason for why we have a gore toggle is that basically most if not all games that feature it will have one if they want their games to be played in certain regions like Germany or China. And reminder; a toggle to remove / replace effects with a different color and such is much different than one to toggle a part of a model off a character that's not attached to something like the Attachment or Syandana segments.

4 hours ago, Digital_Malz said:

Then, you have lots of people manifesting their discomfort. What are you doing? Giving them character design explanation. You know that phobias and traumas are beyond technical explanations? It seems to me lack of empathy. Sorry if it's offensive to you.

I'm not really giving technical explanations, as I'm relaying the message that the game gave me, on top of giving my own reason as to why I don't particularly mind as to why she looks like that. Like, this isn't offensive to me at all. lol I've definitely had worse expressed towards me on this forum.

2 hours ago, Digital_Malz said:

My question for you is very simple: If I had the option of toggling off her belly, and did it. How would it compromise YOUR game?

It wouldn't? This isn't a trick question to me at all, because I haven't actually said anything in regards to DE shouldn't or should make a toggle nor if one would like, break my immersion. All I've defended is that Jade does make sense to be pregnant, and that we can't simply account for every type of discomfort for these types of things. If they choose to add a toggle for her, then so be it I guess. It literally wouldn't bother me.

2 hours ago, Digital_Malz said:

If you it doesn't compromise your game, and you'll insist on "character design". In my opinion, it is total lack of empathy. Simple as that. 

Well damn, I guess I do have some empathy left in the tank lol.

Edited Tuesday at 10:21 PM by Xycelium

[WanderingJoe]

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I don't want other people having a toggle to change how I look!

That's fair. Would you mind if we have a toggle to change how we look then? That was the original proposal on these threads, not a game wide toggle.

[etherealwing]

this is kindof the "what has science done" tag. This is too far as a concept for an eternally pregnant warframe, even in image, it's really weird. You guys can say "you're weird for finding it weird", but no, this is genuinely really bizarre. me and at least 20 people I've talked to who used to play warframe agree on "what the actual #*!%". Look, we had like FORTY OTHER SKIN CONCEPTS. Zodiacs, native american spirits, planetary alignment, radioactive, gaseous, material shifter, horror story frames like a wendigo, but the thought of an "eternally pregnant" healer looking frame is more like something that came out of resident evil 7. It leaves a very uncomfortable feel.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, etherealwing dijo:

this is kindof the "what has science done" tag. This is too far as a concept for an eternally pregnant warframe, even in image, it's really weird. You guys can say "you're weird for finding it weird", but no, this is genuinely really bizarre. me and at least 20 people I've talked to who used to play warframe agree on "what the actual #*!%". Look, we had like FORTY OTHER SKIN CONCEPTS. Zodiacs, native american spirits, planetary alignment, radioactive, gaseous, material shifter, horror story frames like a wendigo, but the thought of an "eternally pregnant" healer looking frame is more like something that came out of resident evil 7. It leaves a very uncomfortable feel.

Well, it doesn't matter if people find it uncomfortable or not, this is something that DE will not change since it is an artistic design that they decided to give to one of their Warframes, if you find it uncomfortable it is not something they should fix since this is A subjective opinion, I don't like warframes that are too "sexy" but that doesn't mean they have to change Wisp's ass.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

1 hour ago, WanderingJoe said:

That's fair. Would you mind if we have a toggle to change how we look then? That was the original proposal on these threads, not a game wide toggle.

Yes I would mind actually, but thats just because I think the Deluxe Skin option, similar to what Gersemi has, is the better option all around, as it benefits everyone and not just a small handful of individuals.

(i also think making the toggle would be a much more invasive process than most people asking for it realize, but ultimately that would be on DE to decide if its worth spending those dev hours on it)

[Kaelzoroden]

It makes me uncomfortable, and I would happily buy a deluxe skin that does away with the pregnancy element.

[WanderingJoe]

Yeah, no, I think we'd take any toggle or alrernative skin/shape. Im not picky here, give me anything along that line of solution.

Edited Wednesday at 01:52 AM by WanderingJoe

[Xylena_Lazarow]

2 hours ago, etherealwing said:

Look, we had like FORTY OTHER SKIN CONCEPTS. Zodiacs, native american spirits, planetary alignment, radioactive, gaseous, material shifter, horror story frames like a wendigo

Remember when we were all excited for DE's take on a biblically accurate angel frame? Like the monsters in FF14 and Bayonetta with the wings and eyes? Or this game's own Void Angels? The concept was right there, people would've loved it. How did they decide yup, let's do perma preggo, that's what gamers want.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

11 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Remember when we were all excited for DE's take on a biblically accurate angel frame? Like the monsters in FF14 and Bayonetta with the wings and eyes? Or this game's own Void Angels? The concept was right there, people would've loved it. How did they decide yup, let's do perma preggo, that's what gamers want.

I mean, since she was announced they were pushing that her themes would be focusing heavily on the dichotomy of life and death in everything from her design to her relationship with The Stalker; the Biblically Accurate Angel stuff was always really just an extension of that, not really the focus of it.

[_Anise_]

4 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

That's fair. Would you mind if we have a toggle to change how we look then?

yes and no, hear me out! I said in another thread, I would rather DE added a warframe skin that was akin to the "gene masking kit" companions get, a skin that applied to any breed of Kubrow like the metus skin, this new genemasking type skin could go on any warframe completely transforming it's appearance, (covering all the phobia bases) this way jades core design theme would remain intact and unchagned, but players so inclined could change her entire look to be something unrelated.

I feel like it might be a nice compromise between changing Jade's appearance while not changing her core identity ..... but I don't think the majority of players want this, I don't think DE would do it, lastly I even don't think DE will do the toggle either mostly because there is no president of them toggling entire parts of actual frame bodies, I could be wrong though.

Edited Wednesday at 02:57 AM by _Anise_