Five new players all quit within 4 weeks!!

[Flannoit]

16 hours ago, supernils said:

that's the silliest most childish complaint ever. "but I want it NOW! Mommy I want I want!!". Jesus, get your impulses under control, you're probably not a child anymore. You get your new weapon tomorrow.

I definitely get the impatience, because I'm an autistic adult who sometimes gets so excited about a frame or weapon that I feel like I'm gonna burst if I don't have it now, but that usually makes me just go "god. Is it worth spending platinum on this."

I've literally hardcore farmed prime trash to sell several times to rush things because I felt like I was gonna explode if I didn't have it sooner than later.

Buuuuut that doesn't mean the timer should go away - DE has to keep Warframe afloat somehow, and that impatience definitely helps.

The build timers thing has been a complaint for the entirety of Warframe's life and it ain't goin anywhere.

Another nice thing about build timers is it's a good opportunity to take a break while you wait for your new toys to restart the loop.

Edited July 24 by Flannoit
realized I had more to say

[Jax_Cavalera]

5 minutes ago, Flannoit said:

Buuuuut that doesn't mean the timer should go away - DE has to keep Warframe afloat somehow, and that impatience definitely helps.

The build timers thing has been a complaint for the entirety of Warframe's life and it ain't goin anywhere.

Another nice thing about build timers is it's a good opportunity to take a break while you wait for your new toys to restart the loop.

This was actually well received by those that made it long enough to build the clan dojo key. They were a bit bothered about it existing, but were also accepting of it as a mechanic. The forced solo quests to unlock ship access and basic functionality were less appreciated to put it mildly.

The one I traded Mag to kept trying to give me his nicer mods so I could sell them for more plat to help fund rushing the build time, I explained there's no need, sold a few spare mods off for plat and then when I traded that to them, they asked.. "So does the cost get cheaper as the timer goes down?" I was like, Yep.. to which they responded "Great I'll wait till we play tomorrow so I spend less on it coz it's late now and I think I can wait and it'll be worth it" (hauntingly after they rushed Mag the next day it was the last time they played.. I promise Mag didn't kill their joy of the game haha

The point is, these weren't stereotypical "I need it now players" they have an appreciation for putting in time to get a reward, but I suppose when you have everything stacked up it's not just 1 thing that causes the drop-off, it's all the different time walls compounding with the forced solo play when they just wanna game with friends.

[Zakkhar]

So, you have been essenentially attempting to introduce players to a game that has very little handholding by extensively handholding them. 

You can do that to an extent, if create your own new smurf account. Carrying, taxing, giving them free stuff, playing the game for them from an established account will not only ruin their experience, but also make them less invested. You can explain do's and don't, but do not get into details.

 

[Flannoit]

8 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

So, you have been essenentially attempting to introduce players to a game that has very little handholding by extensively handholding them. 

You can do that to an extent, if create your own new smurf account. Carrying, taxing, giving them free stuff, playing the game for them from an established account will not only ruin their experience, but also make them less invested. You can explain do's and don't, but do not get into details.

 

Imo the best way to leg up a new player is to get them into a clan with all the labs and as much research as possible and be there to help with the really hard nodes (disruption used to be a newbie nightmare to the degree it was removed from critical path) or help with frame farming because most assassinations are extremely gimmicky (or infinite tedium like chicken) or just intensely boring after a while (I'm currently still suffering my only missing Gauss item being regular Akarius)

Farming, relic cracking, or event nodes are really the only content that you can do with friends, aside from archon hunts, netracells, bounties, and arbitrations

The rest is either solo or one-off which can be problematic for party play, since Warframe is very much a "solo game with party play elements" type game, though that could in part be due to the fact that balancing a quest for 1-4 people is hard and making it so 1-3 people can't screw over one person who's trying to do it at their own pace

[NeDesitVirtus]

I think one of the biggest reasons new players quit is because of the pressure to learn to speed run at break neck speeds to keep up with public squads. 

I've had new players (MR9-11) send me screenshots of individuals (MR16-23) who basically berated them for not knowing certain mechanics or not being fast enough.

While player toxicity is relatively low and this game is compared to others. I think that this is something that we need to continue to discourage and actively report for the sake of the new player base. 

It takes nothing to type in the chat. Maybe something as obvious to you or I that somebody else is not quite familiar with will get the idea of what needs to be done. 

And to do it in a kind way in order to ensure that they understand and doesn't make them feel foolish. Before anyone says "well everyone can just listen to the voice prompts" . Sometimes people are so overstimulated with everything else going on that they don't always track what is being said. 

And while I do think there is a lot of stream lining  that can go into the new player onboarding process, as well as better explaining certain mechanics to quests, for example, hunting down plants for apothics and the best way to do that (Oxlyus/Botanist) etc. I still feel like the biggest barrier is the disparity between players who have been built for higher level content and have a lot of time in the game and those who are just starting and of course the interactions between the two. 

This is not to say I don't agree with the sentiments that if we just hand a new player everything to get to a certain point while they still don't understand the mechanics that that type of enabling doesn't make for a good player downstream. 

A lot of us forget how stressful It might have been to take fire, get status procced and still not have a solid understanding of our own Warframe abilities or operator abilities. If you're going to play many of the warframes at different times and for different purposes, that takes a lot of time and investment. 

So I don't disagree with anything anyone else has said about other contributing factors and this is not meant to place my observations above anybody else's. They're simply my observations. 

So the best thing we can do is remind each player that is newer to the game that it is a marathon, not a sprint and to take their time. Ask questions and stay away from Trade Chat. 

 

[Jax_Cavalera]

26 minutes ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

Before anyone says "well everyone can just listen to the voice prompts" . Sometimes people are so overstimulated with everything else going on that they don't always track what is being said. 

This is such a good call-out, the fact that 5/5 of them all selected a warframe before realising that this was a permanent decision (or in one of their cases.. that this is what they'd just done) speaks volumes toward the in game prompts not being sufficient.

Like these are people who in other games like COD DMZ frequently clean entire maps of players back-to-back so it isn't like they're easily overstimulated or are lacking in perception skills. Warframe in general just has a LOT going on, even more so than fast paced shooters like COD, it's easy to underestimate it due to the 3rd person camera, and flashy special effects.

I said on a few occasions, to take your time, don't worry if it seems like there's a lot going on, as you play a bit more, your brain will start to filter out what's important to keep track of, and what can (for the most part) be ignored. idk I'm just sad that's 5 more people who look at the game negatively when I know they're missing out on so much more if only that new player experience was better.

1 hour ago, Flannoit said:

The rest is either solo or one-off which can be problematic for party play, since Warframe is very much a "solo game with party play elements" type game, though that could in part be due to the fact that balancing a quest for 1-4 people is hard and making it so 1-3 people can't screw over one person who's trying to do it at their own pace

I do think it depends on what type of things you are wanting to do in the game, The devs are super opinionated though about how they believe players should be experiencing their game (sure that's their right to do so), personally it's this reason I get more joy finding ways to play it differently where possible  (You can't tell me what to do space mom!!) lol in all seriousness though, I do think there are a lot of games that show how you could factor in difficulty scaling better when more players join, it just takes a bit more effort than designing content for a single player experience, and I suppose that's what this all comes back to in a vicious circle.

If they had more players, there'd be more $$ to spend on making more of the new content multiplayer with better scaling as they could afford the resources to make that possible.. as there are less.. everything scales back commensurate (hypothesis not a fact)

[-MistyLake-]

There are people who expect quick dopamine without having to put in effort.

I don't want to accuse your friends of that, that was just my initial thought.

Edited July 24 by -MistyLake-

[Anonymouse7611]

For players that stick with Warframe, we need to ask ourselves why we play?

I don't think that providing a quest to clear the star chart is needed, as after you get the basic mechanics of the main mission types (Exterminate, Capture, Defense, Mobile Defense, Survival) you're pretty much set for progression.  The point that it gets tricky is when you start getting into the secondary mission type content (Assassination, Interception, Disruption, etc..).  Some of this secondary mission types don't even require too much more knowledge/skill/equipment than the base mission types (Conjunction Survival, Mirror Defense).  I had mastered the basic early missions, but when I started to attempt the secondary missions, I found that there was a pretty sudden jump in terms of skill/knowledge needed (some of the mechanics weren't really clear), and all my starter weapons started to become obsolete.

It was at this point, i discovered the first aspect of Warframe that appealed to me: the Pokemon phenomena ("gotta catch 'em all" -- ok, not really all).  I discovered the joy of finding the idea Warframe or weapon (ideal for me, subjective, not necessarily objective).  It was that discovery that got me past the grindiness that had started to wear on me, but the problem I faced here was lack of Warframe and weapon slots.  This was basically where I spent all my starter plat.  I'm not sure if there's a fair way to allow new players experience other weapons and frames, without handing them out along with extra slots.

The next struggle I faced was the point where all the content that I'm able to easily cruise through on earlier planets got too hard -- even for my fancy new Warframes and weapons.  At this point I found the next thing about Warframe that appealed to me.  I had a ton of mods at this point, which I would sort of slot somewhat randomly, but nobody explained that "the build" was so crucial.  Each Warframe and weapon can have an intended purpose/content, and then I'd need to find the mod build to achieve that.  This also, almost always, means installing forma to get all the mods in.  The math and building was fun for me and that helped get me past the grindiness of leveling up frames and weapons over and over to install forma.

I think this processes goes on and on, but it boils down to the fact that Warframe is inherently a pretty grindy game.  That's the thing that turns off a lot of players, but the reason why they quit is because they don't see the reward for their grinding, and while some of these rewards work for those of us that are still playing, for some people, the pay off is too far away so they quit long before the get it, or the pay off isn't enough or appropriate, so when they quit because it will never be worth it.

[Nekomian]

On 2024-07-22 at 9:30 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

I see a lot of comments about how these players maybe aren't a good fit for the game etc. When I started playing Warframe, they had no quests, no opening grind, it was a lot more straight forward, and I could jump into the action with my friends immediately.

It really hasn't been that type of game for a while now, at least in terms of new players - it's a lot more story driven with solo-only quests and requirements for accessing certain content. They still try to make it drop in and play, but the majority of the beginning portions should probably be completed solo so the player can go at their own pace and learn mechanics as the game is teaching them. Granted it's still a bit more open-ended than it should be IMO in regards to tutorials and instructions, but it's far better than it was when I started in 2013.

Tbh it sounds like the new players here just weren't expecting it to be that kind of game, comparing the headshots and kills to a vastly different title like CoD - F2P titles have artificial gating and this is a hoarde shooter / looter shooter, with an emphasis on frame powers and mechanics outside of just shooting a target. If 2 couldn't finish the opening quest, which is like an hour long, and the others stopped over cross-save / trade and/or "potential grind", it sounds like this game really was not a good fit for them if they wanted something you could instantly pick up and join friends for. There's a ton of games out there like that, but this honestly is not one of them, and hasn't been since its earlier days, and won't be with newer mechanics and content being gated behind every prior quest.

Worth noting as well - nothing in this game is really "mandatory" in terms of grind for content, and I make sure to tell new players that too; there's always the aspect of "oooh that looks so cool, where can I get that" and the item or frame is locked behind 6 different quests, but there's no reason to immediately jump to getting that thing then. There's plenty this game has to offer that feels or looks cool or interesting, and often a bit of redirection is helpful here to shift focus and priorities. Things can always be "nice to have" or "interesting" like certain weapons, mods, or arcanes, but tbh nothing has ever felt mandatory or forced to me in that if I don't have it I'm somehow "failing" or can't complete a mission.

I always treat it as "that might take a bit longer to get, but there's 1000 other things in the meantime that you can do while you get there!" in regards to informing newer players of their decisions. Not all content is going to be immediately available at once to someone who just started, nor would I expect it to be - it kinda reads like these newer players saw what you had and just immediately wanted it all, without any effort or time sink that F2P games tend to have, which is a different expectation than what the game is designed to be or plays like.

[Geometries62]

10 минут назад, Anonymouse7611 сказал:

I think this processes goes on and on, but it boils down to the fact that Warframe is inherently a pretty grindy game.  That's the thing that turns off a lot of players, but the reason why they quit is because they don't see the reward for their grinding, and while some of these rewards work for those of us that are still playing, for some people, the pay off is too far away so they quit long before the get it, or the pay off isn't enough or appropriate, so when they quit because it will never be worth it.

People saying Warframe is a pretty grindy game never played War Thunder or similar games. As for rewards and grind I suggest do not focus on them to much. Just play the game as you see fit. Eventually you'll gather almost everything in Warframe, just be patient.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

En 22/7/2024 a las 21:30, Jax_Cavalera dijo:

The fact a 10+yr veteran has no idea about this is probably another indication of the challenge this feedback aims to highlight. Should we expect new players to a game to have to google this stuff, that seems like the worst crutch for User Experience a game could have.

That changes from person to person, there are simply clumsier people. Whatever the case, if you start playing multiplayer with several years of existence from scratch, the normal thing is to investigate so as not to get lost along the way, it is not the same as starting a completely new game where technically there is no content.

The same thing happens with any MMO with several years of existence and it's not as if getting lost in an MMO is something rare of uncommon in mmo or multiplayer games who have much content. The logical thing is to inform yourself over any question you have.

Edit: In any case, DE should make a guide for dummies to see if the crying stops.

Edited July 24 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Anonymouse7611]

4 hours ago, Geometries62 said:

People saying Warframe is a pretty grindy game never played War Thunder or similar games. As for rewards and grind I suggest do not focus on them to much. Just play the game as you see fit. Eventually you'll gather almost everything in Warframe, just be patient.

The patience is the thing that players that quit lack.  Warframe has a lot of grinding punctuated by delayed gratification.  Your point holds true, but this discussion is about greater new player retention, and my point is that those with sufficient patience are fine, but for everyone else, I believe they need more incremental and compelling treats to continue to fish them along.

[Jax_Cavalera]

5 hours ago, Nekomian said:

It really hasn't been that type of game for a while now, at least in terms of new players - it's a lot more story driven with solo-only quests and requirements for accessing certain content. They still try to make it drop in and play, but the majority of the beginning portions should probably be completed solo so the player can go at their own pace and learn mechanics as the game is teaching them. Granted it's still a bit more open-ended than it should be IMO in regards to tutorials and instructions, but it's far better than it was when I started in 2013.

Interesting, I think based on this insight there's 100% a layer of subjectivity to the conversation. I often wonder if it's because they introduced all those additional grind walls after I had progressed to a point of being mostly unaffected by them, if that's the reason I enjoy the game more than newer players. Reading this indicates, that won't be true for everyone.

4 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

The same thing happens with any MMO with several years of existence and it's not as if getting lost in an MMO is something rare of uncommon in mmo or multiplayer games who have much content. The logical thing is to inform yourself over any question you have.

I would agree there are a lot of MMOs out there that are also in need of some TLC on this subject. The most popular MMO's require little to no googling for new players though. Minecraft has built in crafting recipes and tooltips, GTA O is just very self explanatory, COD series has always been very self explanatory, same goes for the Battlefield series. Path of Exile again very straight forward and easy to get up and running. I could go on.

Warframe sits as an edge case to this common trend where it has remained a 2nd tier popular game. Not like the big ones CounterStrike, Valorant, WoW, etc. but you know top tier indie. I put this down to the game growing with the community, something more recent live service offerings fail to recognise.

Warframe could break through into the top tier of popular MMO games if it had stronger retention for new players. Statistically the ratio of keepers vs quitters isn't great, Over the 10 years I been playing, I've introduced maybe 30 people or more to the game, and some hit MR 15 (from memory), however as it stands today I'm the only one still playing. the rest burnt out and it was usually the solo quest grind wall that did it for the longer term players.

Reading comments in this thread I can say I had a part to play in their demise unknowingly - I didn't realise at the time, me encouraging them to complete quest x, y or z so they can play the new mission I was doing would result in grind overload.. in my defence.. if that grind wasn't as prolific.. you know they would have been still playing today so I won't take 100% of the blame but I'll own my share on that point. The confusing and cluttered onboarding for newer ones, and a weird issue with nausea due to camera parallax for one of them were the other cited reasons.

45 minutes ago, Anonymouse7611 said:

The patience is the thing that players that quit lack.  Warframe has a lot of grinding punctuated by delayed gratification.  Your point holds true, but this discussion is about greater new player retention, and my point is that those with sufficient patience are fine, but for everyone else, I believe they need more incremental and compelling treats to continue to fish them along.

Agreed, in part it's how Warframe continues to exist and make $$ so I am ok with the grinding. It's forcing players into Solo questlines to unlock new content that breaks the joy because at that point it's no longer the MMO people signed up for, but rather a single player campaign (which isn't for everyone) and certainly not what people spend the majority of their time doing in the game by any stretch.

You are on point though about needing more compelling and incremental treats, perhaps making a 2nd version of a quest that's not a solo grind wall but more a quick cinematic 5 mins long or so to keep players up to date on what went down would help for any playing long enough to make it to quests. I'm even fine and believe most players should be fine with an opening solo mission that plays as a tutorial for basic controls etc. it's more the whole having to do missions to unlock parts of your ship.. that don't even explain or add value to understanding what, why or how those new segments will help you out that seems pointless. Like cool we did a mission, got a segment, installed it but what was the point of that forced sequence.. did I learn anything about the segment a quick tooltip couldn't have done in much less time?

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 2 minutos, Jax_Cavalera dijo:

Minecraft

hahahahahahahahaha

hace 2 minutos, Jax_Cavalera dijo:

Warframe sits as an edge case to this common trend where it has remained a 2nd tier popular game. Not like the big ones CounterStrike, Valorant, WoW, etc. but you know top tier indie

I would like my indie game to be 11 years old with more than 400k players daily u.u

 

Edited July 24 by CosoMalvadoNG

[0bsi]

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Interesting, I think based on this insight there's 100% a layer of subjectivity to the conversation. I often wonder if it's because they introduced all those additional grind walls after I had progressed to a point of being mostly unaffected by them, if that's the reason I enjoy the game more than newer players. Reading this indicates, that won't be true for everyone.

Well yeah....  So if a player today goes "Ohh this Warframe 1999 stuff looks cool, I wanna play Warframe and do that..."  The problem for them is that they need to complete all the story stuff (and have good enough gear) to get to that point, which is a considerable grind when all they really want to do is that end content.  Compared to someone who has been around long enough to have done everything and is just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next new update. 

Which is why I think it's very important to tell new players that the most recent content is for the players who have been playing a while, because it requires a fair amount of gameplay time to get to that point.  So they don't download the game expecting to get access to that immediately.

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Minecraft has built in crafting recipes and tooltips,

Now it does.... you clearly didn't play it in the early days...   For a very long time there was no ingame recipe book - you had to just know (or google) the recipes for everything.  It was another game that you had to figure stuff out on your own or live on the wiki for if you wanted to know how to do pretty much anything.

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Warframe could break through into the top tier of popular MMO games if it had stronger retention for new players. Statistically the ratio of keepers vs quitters isn't great, Over the 10 years I been playing, I've introduced maybe 30 people or more to the game, and some hit MR 15 (from memory), however as it stands today I'm the only one still playing. the rest burnt out and it was usually the solo quest grind wall that did it for the longer term players.

I wouldn't consider Warframe an MMO... and while yes there might be a lot of quitters, I'm sure the same is true of many other games - you probably just notice it more because you're in the position of wanting friends to play with you, and they aren't interested in this game.

There are lots of games I've introduced friends to who played a few times and then quit, just as there are games they introduced to me and we played a few times then one or other of us quit.  It's a lot easier to walk away from a free game if it's not your idea of fun, than it is with a game you've paid for.  Often if you paid for it, you'll push yourself to play so you can get your moneys worth.

I'm in the position where of my friends I have who play warframe (ones I introduced to it, as well as a couple who already had it but barely played it), none are all that interested - they will play occasionally when I pester them, but that's about it.  But they also don't play any of the other games we have in common either (or play briefly then move on to something else).  So it's not warframe specifically.

The issues my friends have are:

• The solo quest issue  - They prefer to play with other people, so having to do quests solo is less appealing -  this becomes a big issue if we want to play new content that they can't access (I finally managed to pester some of them enough to get past TNW - and only because I gave them Voidrigs).
• The grind - They might have only an hour to play, so they don't want to "waste" that doing something they don't enjoy, and grinding the same node for something is something they don't find enjoyable
• The fact they don't know how to get the things they want
• The fact it's a "sandbox " of sorts, there's lots of stuff to do and they don't know which of those things to do (so they don't do anything).

However.... ultimately the issue isn't any of those things...  it's in part that they just don't like Warframe as much as I do (So aren't prepared to push through the things that they struggle with), but the main issue is that the majority of them just don't like playing ANY game too much - they want to conquer a game or play for a bit until they get bored with it, and move on to the next exciting game.  They don't find joy in collecting stuff, they don't like the fact it's always ongoing with more stuff they need to do.  It's just the wrong kind of game for them.

The type of game warframe is, just won't appeal to everyone.  There's multiple aspects of the game that can be offputting to players, so it's only those who like or are willing to push through these aspects, who will keep playing.  I don't think there's a way to make the game enjoyable to people who struggle with the game in that way, nor do I think the game should try to bend to cater for them.

Since my friends don't play often, finding an active alliance clan was great for me, because I now have a group of players around, and even if some drop out of there, there's always more joining.

 

For most of my friends who struggle to play - I think the other biggest hurdle is the "sandbox" issue (I wouldn't call Warframe a sandox game, but it's the best way I can think of to explain this aspect).  Sure there's the codex and the new message thing that prompts players to play through the quests.  But outside of that there's just so much stuff to do, that it seems some players get so overwhelmed with choice that they instead just do nothing.

Now for me... I like that.  I play a lot of games where you can make your own fun, do things at your own pace, choose to focus on sidequests and collecting and ignore the main quest if you want.  That freedom of choice is what I like in a game.

I liked the fact I could decide one day to go searching for all the Kurias.... the next day I could focus on grinding for a particular frame.  If I get a login booster I'll focus on grinding resources so that it's less painful to craft stuff in the future.  I made myself a text file plan, of what frame parts I needed, and what thigns I wanted to achieve, and I worked at going through that.

But none of my friends will do that.  They want a game to tell them what to do next.  They don't want to have to make decisions themselves.

I think one of the QoL things Warframe does need is some sort of planner situation, where players can make an ingame list of the goals they are trying to achieve, and for the game to help point them in the direction of working towards those goals.

 

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

It's forcing players into Solo questlines to unlock new content that breaks the joy because at that point it's no longer the MMO people signed up for, but rather a single player campaign (which isn't for everyone) and certainly not what people spend the majority of their time doing in the game by any stretch.

You are on point though about needing more compelling and incremental treats, perhaps making a 2nd version of a quest that's not a solo grind wall but more a quick cinematic 5 mins long or so to keep players up to date on what went down would help for any playing long enough to make it to quests.

Again, I think people going into Warframe under the impression it's an MMO are going to be disappointed and leave because that's NOT what it is.  It absolutely is a single player game, that you can choose to play part of as co-op if you wish.

I do agree that having the story quests be able to be done in a squad would help push people through them more -- but I can see why they don't given how they actually work with the storyline.  How could you tell the same sort of stories if you're trying to have all 4 people in a squad all be the main focus of the story?  It just wouldn't work the same.  Sure some parts could be written to work as a squad, but some parts really couldn't be.  Not without it being a case of you're all there, but the cutscenes only show you and we pretend the others aren't there.

But this is where I wasn't opposed to the concept of a quest skip. Especially with TNW being such a long quest you're locked into.  At least 2 of my friends aren't interested in the story/lore of Warframe, and would absolutely skip all quests in favour of just being able to play the latest content with me.  While I personally love the story missions and all the lore, if others don't care about it, don't want to do it, and it might force them away from the game - then I see it as a good way to get players into the newest mission nodes they actually want to play.

Edited July 25 by 0bsi

[Anonymouse7611]

17 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

It's forcing players into Solo questlines to unlock new content that breaks the joy because at that point it's no longer the MMO people signed up for, but rather a single player campaign (which isn't for everyone) and certainly not what people spend the majority of their time doing in the game by any stretch.

Interesting.  This is another aspect that I hadn't thought about.  I've recently also been reading about people frustrated by The New War quest and being unable to complete the quest (aside from bugs) because they're unable to defeat the Archons.  I think this is one of the more recent examples of what you're talking about (solo questlines blocking new content). 

When The New War came out, I hesitated starting the quest because I was worried that I was under-equipped to complete it.  In this case, because the quest limits what gear the player gets to use, my concern was specifically my own skillz/guudness.  On this front, I think DE made a good choice leveling the playing field across newbis and veterans.  The inability to fall back to calling up friends to team me through the quest was scary, but I managed to complete it because I gathered enough outside advice on which two Archons I should face in The Wild Hunt stage.

Honestly, I solo way more than I team, so for me Warframe is far from a MMO.  I really only team for hard content (hard for me: EDA, Tridolons,  ...) so the solo quests aren't a huge stretch for me, but I do a ton of outside research (such as finding out which two Archons I'm more likely to be able to defeat).  And maybe this is another aspect of Warframe: the amount of the learning curve that best comes from outside the game itself (wiki, forums, etc..), and again, on this aspect, I'm the type of player that's good with doing the leg work of reading wikia entries, forums, and watching YouTube videos.  Maybe this is another aspect of the patience needed, where some players don't find that outside work fun at all.  On this, I'm not sure I have an answer.  I Google for answers for almost everything I do, so doing this for Warframe doesn't seem unnatural.  I don't think more hand-holding is the right answer here.  It may work for some of the problems (like "how to mod") but not for others ("how to defeat...")

[Birdframe_Prime]

I gotta be honest man, from the list of things you've described, the only major point that isn't the fault of the players is the lack of direction. The 'where do I go next' part.

DE have tried, by making the planets have an actual path for you to follow, having a 'do this next' box on your UI at all times when in the Orbiter... but they can't seem to actually get something that will give players a more... driven start.

But everything else? I mean, dude, you had two of them not even finish the opening quest, which is how it shows you the basic features of the game and how to play through some of the most basic missions? That's on them. The opening quest of any grinding-based game is going to do much the same thing. Show you the combat, send you on a couple of starter missions, and unlock the different functions you have as a player to progress with. Hell even games like Doom Eternal have a starter mission before you get access to all the different upgrade paths. And so not finishing that? That's on your friends. It's not on you, and it's not on Warframe.

I know you don't want to think of it that way, because you think it's a bad thing, you're not seeing it as 'there is a fundamental difference in how my friends want to play and what this game is offering' and taking that as a perfectly normal part of gaming life.

I don't play several types of game, like racing, or versus fighters. I like adventure games that have some story to discover, I like spectacle fighters, I like single player or co-op driven action games. And that's also got its preferences. I like Warframe, but I didn't get on with Destiny 2 when I tried it. I like Elden Ring, but I definitely didn't get on with Sekiro. The way that any two games can play, no matter how similar, is important too.

And your friends just didn't like Warframe the way you do.

That's a little disheartening, sure, but you've got to live with that.

There is feedback here, but you can't frame it on the basis of five players you know quitting, not when the reasons for not just the first two, but the second two of them quitting was 'they couldn't do the cool things that an experienced player does immediately, and have to start from the same place everyone else does'. Two quit because they couldn't be bothered with the starter quest, two quit because you couldn't give them things that would make them feel cooler about starting new games. And the last one quits because there's grind in a grind game...

That isn't your fault, that isn't the game's fault. That's on them, legitimately, and it's okay that it's on them.

Your friends don't like the game you like, not when they can't immediately do what you do, what you've spent years building up to do. That's okay. It's a little entitled on some of their part, but it's still a perfectly normal way to behave.

They tried Warframe with you, and didn't like Warframe. That's about it.

Can the game improve? Sure. And it needs to.

What the game can't really do is have an instant tutorial so that new players are immediately catapulted into combat readiness with all the mods, weapons and warframes that an experienced person has. What the game can't do is magically not require you to go out and grind for resources to build things. What the game can't do is remove the progression path for players, because then they'll have even less direction after the starter quest.

The premise for this thread, the quitting of five new players... is genuinely obscuring the actual feedback that can be given.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 16 horas, 0bsi dijo:

Well yeah....  So if a player today goes "Ohh this Warframe 1999 stuff looks cool, I wanna play Warframe and do that..."  The problem for them is that they need to complete all the story stuff (and have good enough gear) to get to that point, which is a considerable grind when all they really want to do is that end content.  Compared to someone who has been around long enough to have done everything and is just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next new update. 

But this happen in every mmo... If you are a new player on a mmo you have lv up, equip well and do the main story to enjoy that new DLC. Obviously there are exceptions, but it happens more in games with paid DLC's.

hace 2 horas, Anonymouse7611 dijo:

Honestly, I solo way more than I team, so for me Warframe is far from a MMO.  I really only team for hard content (hard for me: EDA, Tridolons,  ...) so the solo quests aren't a huge stretch for me, but I do a ton of outside research (such as finding out which two Archons I'm more likely to be able to defeat).  And maybe this is another aspect of Warframe: the amount of the learning curve that best comes from outside the game itself (wiki, forums, etc..), and again, on this aspect, I'm the type of player that's good with doing the leg work of reading wikia entries, forums, and watching YouTube videos.  Maybe this is another aspect of the patience needed, where some players don't find that outside work fun at all.  On this, I'm not sure I have an answer.  I Google for answers for almost everything I do, so doing this for Warframe doesn't seem unnatural.  I don't think more hand-holding is the right answer here.  It may work for some of the problems (like "how to mod") but not for others ("how to defeat...")

In the majority of big mmos games it is exactly the same... take for example Black Desert Online, the game has many quests and extra curricular content that is difficult to understand due to the information overload and the easiest way to save you time is to search for guides on Google. 

Edited July 25 by CosoMalvadoNG
more

[Jax_Cavalera]

Firstly thank you all so much for taking the time to post so many well thought through responses.

20 hours ago, 0bsi said:

Which is why I think it's very important to tell new players that the most recent content is for the players who have been playing a while, because it requires a fair amount of gameplay time to get to that point.  So they don't download the game expecting to get access to that immediately.

This is a very true point you call out here. A lot of people would have been watching popular youtubers react to Tennocon (i.e. Charlie) and thought.. oh yeah that looks so cool, I am definitely going to give that a go!  I don't recall anyone flagging during Tennocon that the content being shown would only be accessible to veteran players.. but in all reality given you appear to access it via Railjack - that's at least a few weeks of gameplay under your belt.

20 hours ago, 0bsi said:

Now it does.... you clearly didn't play it in the early days...   For a very long time there was no ingame recipe book - you had to just know (or google) the recipes for everything.  It was another game that you had to figure stuff out on your own or live on the wiki for if you wanted to know how to do pretty much anything.

Fair point, I'd say as they continued to improve their UX the game continued to grow in popularity. There were always mods for Java minecraft to do the same thing.. perhaps that's why I forgot it wasn't part of the actual game initially.

20 hours ago, 0bsi said:

you probably just notice it more because you're in the position of wanting friends to play with you, and they aren't interested in this game.

Hahaha I really am, and also I find it so strange that they would love to play The First Descendant and Helldivers 2 but refuse to invest the same kind of effort to play Warframe, a game I would argue has far more on offer include the core aspects you get from those other games. It leaves me asking.. what's the issue with Warframe compared to those other games, I just don't see it?

20 hours ago, 0bsi said:

For most of my friends who struggle to play - I think the other biggest hurdle is the "sandbox" issue (I wouldn't call Warframe a sandox game, but it's the best way I can think of to explain this aspect).  Sure there's the codex and the new message thing that prompts players to play through the quests.  But outside of that there's just so much stuff to do, that it seems some players get so overwhelmed with choice that they instead just do nothing.

When my friends were watching me play the game I said to them, "my biggest issue with the game is that there's so much you can do, it can feel a bit overwhelming at times.. so if you guys end up playing, just focus on one thing you do enjoy a lot instead of doing little bits of everything"

20 hours ago, 0bsi said:

But this is where I wasn't opposed to the concept of a quest skip. Especially with TNW being such a long quest you're locked into.  At least 2 of my friends aren't interested in the story/lore of Warframe,

Yeah this is me too, I power skip all the cutscenes on quests coz it's just not that interesting to me initially. I know I can go back anytime and replay them if I want that single player storymode experience, but typically see them as a time/grind wall than interesting content. I don't need a story based reason to want to kill the Jade eximus units.. they piss me off enough with their little green abduction light already 😆

6 hours ago, Anonymouse7611 said:

I've recently also been reading about people frustrated by The New War quest and being unable to complete the quest (aside from bugs) because they're unable to defeat the Archons.  I think this is one of the more recent examples of what you're talking about (solo questlines blocking new content). 

Oh absolutely, I have PTSD from being on discord calls with friends grinding through some of the quests and just time after time getting wiped and progressively becoming more angry till they're like "nup fk this I'm done" and they would just drop offline and not come back for a day or more.. I'd be like.. I wish I could just help them a little, it's not like they'll be facing these enemies alone once the quest is done.

 

6 hours ago, Anonymouse7611 said:

I Google for answers for almost everything I do, so doing this for Warframe doesn't seem unnatural.  I don't think more hand-holding is the right answer here.  It may work for some of the problems (like "how to mod") but not for others ("how to defeat...")

I think when you progress from basic gameplay to min-maxing, hitting up google, wiki's, youtube videos etc is  fine and what most people will do. It's more the basic stuff like.. Silver Grove, or Where do I install a ship segment, or Where do I go now I did that first mission. And even then I don't think more hand-holding makes it better, I think the game is pretty confusing because of all the forced hand-holding in there as it stands..

All they really needed to do was have all segment components installed by default in the ship when you start.. and then just zip the player around to each of them to get them up and running with a few starter mods etc. And let them just get on their way playing the game - That's what Helldivers 2 did, you play a short intro to get your controls right, then you go to the ship and it zips you around to the kiosks .. and boom you're out there killing the zerg or whatever.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But everything else? I mean, dude, you had two of them not even finish the opening quest, which is how it shows you the basic features of the game and how to play through some of the most basic missions?

They all made it to their ship.. but they didn't finish the quest. I just re-watched a youtube vid of someone playing the game for the first time, and I think you're right though.. for all of them to select Excalibur they were probably trying to bum-rush ahead and just get to the gameplay, They may not have realised that decision was permanent.. perhaps they didn't care because they weren't terribly invested in the game just yet.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I like Warframe, but I didn't get on with Destiny 2 when I tried it. I like Elden Ring, but I definitely didn't get on with Sekiro. The way that any two games can play, no matter how similar, is important too.

That's a fair distinction, I also tried Destiny 2 and it just wasn't for me.. it felt too clunky in terms of gameplay compared to what I had become used to with Warframe. though a lot of people say it's very similar.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What the game can't really do is have an instant tutorial so that new players are immediately catapulted into combat readiness with all the mods, weapons and warframes that an experienced person has. What the game can't do is magically not require you to go out and grind for resources to build things. What the game can't do is remove the progression path for players, because then they'll have even less direction after the starter quest.

The premise for this thread, the quitting of five new players... is genuinely obscuring the actual feedback that can be given.

From reading this a few times over, I think it's a bit of both still. I think there's definitely things the game could do better in terms of making questing optional vs mandatory - Offering players the starter tutorial experience as a quest if they want / need it .. but also just letting them start running missions with friends after the initial opening sequence (the part where you do the jumps and slides and select starter frame and weapons etc is fine.. everyone completed that bit)

I guess the question I'm left asking though is, "What would it hurt to give players the option of skipping the solo quests experience?" Will DE lose some money, will the players drop off more.. I don't think there's any risk in them doing it.

4 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

If you are a new player on a mmo you have lv up, equip well and do the main story to enjoy that new DLC.

Yeah I think that's kind of the point of playing games with progression and levelling systems, even COD Warzone DMZ has this with weapons and all of the people introduced to Warframe were comfortable with the concept of grinding out the upgrades to weapons in a game like that, so I don't think they were concerned with the principle of grinding to level stuff up.. so much as they were bothered with the solo questline grind walls where we'd be online together but not able to play together - In DMZ there's no forced solo grind / timewalls so that was a new type of pain for them I suspect in hindsight.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 hora, Jax_Cavalera dijo:

Yeah I think that's kind of the point of playing games with progression and levelling systems, even COD Warzone DMZ has this with weapons and all of the people introduced to Warframe were comfortable with the concept of grinding out the upgrades to weapons in a game like that, so I don't think they were concerned with the principle of grinding to level stuff up.. so much as they were bothered with the solo questline grind walls where we'd be online together but not able to play together - In DMZ there's no forced solo grind / timewalls so that was a new type of pain for them I suspect in hindsight.

Most MMOs have that... not being able to access the content because you didn't complete x part of the story or because you didn't complete a solo mission to kill some type of boss that requires a certain level of equipment, I even know what there is equipment in mmos that takes you months to farm or upgrade to a good level.

I understand your anger because your friends left the game, some of my friends have not played this for more than 6 years.

PS: I find it funny that you use games that have nothing to do with each other as examples of comparison (no offense, friend). If you want to make a comparison, look for other free multiplayer looter Shooter with free dlc, not minecract, not survival games, not pay to play games, not pvp games, the comparison is made between equals or similar games.

Edited July 26 by CosoMalvadoNG

[0bsi]

Honestly I think SEVERAL mistakes were made with The New War.  It's too long for a single quest.  It should have been broken up into a series of smaller quests, which not only makes it easier on players (playable in more manageable chunks, with the ability to leave to do other stuff after each section), but would have allowed them to drip feed quests over 6+ months, rather than having a 5+hour behemoth quest and then players finishing that and then having nothing more to look forward to, until Zariman came which was like 30mins quest and seemed very shallow by comparison.....  And the gameplay continues to be problematic for some players.  People seem to get stuck on either the stealth part (which I personally found easy and enjoyable), or the Archons (which I struggled with and hated :P )

The issue they now have is that this huge problematic quest is a massive roadblock now that's getting in the way of people being able to play the more recent content.  They tried to bypass that by letting newbies into Duviri straight away, but that was a terrible idea they had to end up removing.  

I hope they have learned from TNW and don't make that mistake again, 

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I think there's definitely things the game could do better in terms of making questing optional vs mandatory - Offering players the starter tutorial experience as a quest if they want / need it .. but also just letting them start running missions with friends after the initial opening sequence (the part where you do the jumps and slides and select starter frame and weapons etc is fine.. everyone completed that bit)

The thing is.... I'm sure DE is proud of the story they have crafted and they likely want players to experience that conent which they spent time on making... so I can see why they would want to force story missions to be completed.  It gives you the basic information about what the game is, the setting for the world and the type of gameplay...

Also I've played several online games where you have to do an introductory quest solo before the world is opened up for you to be able to play with your friends in that world.  I'm struggling to think of any multiplayer game I've played that has quests, that DOESN'T have a forced introductory solo quest before you're allowed to play with your friends.

Having said that....  I don't disagree with players having the option of skipping the intro quest and having the ability to jump straight in with friends, so long as there was an obvious reminder to them to do it, and obviously the quest in the codex for them to do it when they want to.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I guess the question I'm left asking though is, "What would it hurt to give players the option of skipping the solo quests experience?" Will DE lose some money, will the players drop off more.. I don't think there's any risk in them doing it.

As someone who does get into the story/lore, I think players skipping it would be a massive shame and that people should just "suck it up princess" and get past it to continue on...., but I do think that given the situation the game is in (lots of solo quests blocking the way to the new content which new players want to access), it's not necessarily a bad thing to allow a skip for those players who really don't care.

However..... There are a few practical issues with a quest skip.

Firstly, some of the quests give you access to things (worlds/areas, weapons, frames) after completion - is it fair for players to skip quests and get given those things "for free" as it were?  I don't think so. (Which I believe is why the original quest skip idea they floated was going to cost plat, but people were outraged at the idea - despite the fact you can already pay-to-skip grind by buying weapons/frames/necramechs/railjacks with plat already).   So then there would have to be blocks in place for players who have skipped the quests to not access stuff they haven't EARNED... and that's extra complexity for DE to add, just to allow people to skip content DE spent time making, just because the player can't be bothered playing it.....

Secondly... If they allowed MR1 newbie players to jump straight into the WITW sanctum missions for example, they are going to get slaughtered.  The story quest missions have requirements that force players to have played enough of the game at that point to have a fair idea at combat, movement, modding and all the core parts of the game - and to have gear that should be capable of dealing with the level of enemies they will encounter.  Because they have had to play the game and work their way up to there.  Those story missions that gatekeep the higher content are also gatekeeping the HARDER content, so that you don't get brand new players jumping in headfirst to stuff they won't be able to do, rage quitting and never coming back.   Forcing quest progression is an easy way to gearcheck players for the content.

Now sure, you could make the argument that someone who has been playing for years but not done story quests can likely cope with those enemies, and any player who doesn't have good enough gear could just go away and get better gear and come back if they struggle.... or having some sort of MR "you must be this tall to enter this ride" sort of check instead -- but as the people who can't be bothered doing a starter quest show - first impressions last, and not everyone has the patience to slog through something if they only have their eyes on the end goal.

 

You mentioned your friends not knowing where to install the ship segments... but for memory there's a yellow waypoint marker on them to tell you where you need to go.  I really think it's just a case of those people not having the patience to slow down enough to take a moment to comprehend what's happening on the screen because they are single-mindedly wanting to just get to the pew pew with their buddies.   Which is not intended to throw shade, just that what they want from a game is not what Warframe is.

[Jax_Cavalera]

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

PS: I find it funny that you use games that have nothing to do with each other as examples of comparison (no offense, friend). If you want to make a comparison, look for other free multiplayer looter Shooter with free dlc, not minecract, not survival games, not pay to play games, not pvp games, the comparison is made between equals or similar games.

That's why I found it strange though DMZ is mostly a PVE game (there is some PVP just like warframe has some PVP) but for the most part it's PVE - It's free, multiplayer, and it's 100% a looter shooter, all the DLC maps that come out are also free for it. You have a valid point on the other examples I refer to though hahaha that's my bad.

 

1 hour ago, 0bsi said:

They tried to bypass that by letting newbies into Duviri straight away, but that was a terrible idea they had to end up removing.

Yeah even I found Duviri intimidating at first, it's basically a completely different game

1 hour ago, 0bsi said:

so long as there was an obvious reminder to them to do it, and obviously the quest in the codex for them to do it when they want to.

I'd be fine with that option, I think it'd definitely rule out a few extra things. 

 

1 hour ago, 0bsi said:

I think players skipping it would be a massive shame

Agreed if there was no way to go back later and play through the storyline this would be quite the waste coz it's pretty cool.. Personally though when I am shown the gameplay and then it's released, I don't want to sit around in the solo quest, I want to get into the gameplay ASAP as usually it's a tad easier when first released before they fine-tune the difficulty scaling etc. and also it's the part I was looking forward to the most. If I ever get bored or find a quite patch of time, I will go back and do the quests though.. Some of the quests seemed mandatory at the time but the decisions we made during them.. I'm yet to see the point.. did it really change anything of value.. not that I can tell.

1 hour ago, 0bsi said:

and that's extra complexity for DE to add, just to allow people to skip content DE spent time making, just because the player can't be bothered playing it.....

Perhaps, if there's enough players who can't be bothered playing it.. should they keep making so much of it? Maybe that's too argumentative a question, I just don't think I would bother making more of something if there were less than 50% of people enjoying it .. I would love to know how many players speed run quests currently vs those that play out each cut-scene in full etc.

2 hours ago, 0bsi said:

Secondly... If they allowed MR1 newbie players to jump straight into the WITW sanctum missions for example, they are going to get slaughtered.  The story quest missions have requirements that force players to have played enough of the game at that point to have a fair idea at combat, movement, modding and all the core parts of the game - and to have gear that should be capable of dealing with the level of enemies they will encounter.  Because they have had to play the game and work their way up to there.  Those story missions that gatekeep the higher content are also gatekeeping the HARDER content, so that you don't get brand new players jumping in headfirst to stuff they won't be able to do, rage quitting and never coming back.   Forcing quest progression is an easy way to gearcheck players for the content.

Now sure, you could make the argument that someone who has been playing for years but not done story quests can likely cope with those enemies, and any player who doesn't have good enough gear could just go away and get better gear and come back if they struggle.... or having some sort of MR "you must be this tall to enter this ride" sort of check instead -- but as the people who can't be bothered doing a starter quest show - first impressions last, and not everyone has the patience to slog through something if they only have their eyes on the end goal.

It's worth making the distinction though that running a mission is not mandatory. Players can select which mission they would like to run, and if it's too difficult, select an easier one.

If missions gave a warning before launching like, "Your equipment does not match the level requirement of this mission - enter at your own risk" players won't be launching missions and turning around to be shocked when they are defeated.

I agree with your point - First impressions last, this is true you don't want people going into something with the wrong expectations or it will create a negative first impression - which is why a warning clearly explaining things may be sufficient.

There is one thing that doesn't quite add up to me though: If you have a player that can handle the grind, I don't think they're the sort of player who will have a bad round and throw in the towel and quit - especially if they knew they chose a mission beyond their gear's current ability.

The type of players giving up that easy, are also the type of players who wouldn't have the constitution for a game with Warframe levels of grind. And it's my opinion that the 5 friends who tried out Warframe can handle the grind so I really don't think they would have fallen into that category, Some of them were definitely trying to just bum rush their way through though without thinking much about the initial choices they were making, they wanted to get to the squad based missions with me ASAP.

I don't think they have the patience to deal with quest grind-walls and maybe they would struggle with the time-grind walls as well like in the foundry (but that's fine too - they have deep pockets which means more Plat purchases) the time grind walls are specifically designed to target that kind of player.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

People complaining about the difficulty of the new war:


People completing the new war on a mobile:

 

hace 7 minutos, Jax_Cavalera dijo:

...

Jokes aside, if you want to complain about something to the developers and have this taken into account more, use Twitter. DE_rebecca and DE_pablo spend their time posting there almost every day.

[0bsi]

51 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

If missions gave a warning before launching like, "Your equipment does not match the level requirement of this mission - enter at your own risk" players won't be launching missions and turning around to be shocked when they are defeated.

Sadly though, too many people don't read :P  And yes, that's on them.... But you'd get far too many noobs jumping in there and then whinging that it's too hard and Warframe is stupid.

Take the Sanctum nodes... they are all 55-60 enemy levels.   Let's say you or some other veteran player has newbie friends who wanted to come check out the cool new mission nodes they've seen in this awesome new tileset.... take their freshly minted MR1 Excals in there, with an unlevelled Paris and Skana....    And how enjoyable would that be for them?  

Also how enjoyable would that be for the rest of the squad.... could you imagine pub squads?  *shudder*  If they let anyone in at any level, then you'd have all sorts of trouble matchmaking because you'd have a squad, a noob joins, others nope out... host migration....  Please God no.

 

56 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

There is one thing that doesn't quite add up to me though: If you have a player that can handle the grind, I don't think they're the sort of player who will have a bad round and throw in the towel and quit - especially if they knew they chose a mission beyond their gear's current ability.

But....  another side of that coin....  I'd argue that if you've had a glimpse of the good life, fallen and need to climb back up... that might seem more of a grind than if you're starting at the bottom and looking forward to the end goal of that good life.

Imagine you have a player who doesn't read (or doesn't understand) the "You are too noob for this" warning and goes in anyway with a false sense of bravado, gets their ass kicked, and nopes out, realising they need better stuff.  Then what?  If they realise that maybe since they are MR1, and the enemies they encounter on Earth are 1-3.... that probably means they are presently geared up for a lvl 1-3 fight, and suddenly having to get to lvl 55-60 would look like an insurmountable goal, when they just want to play there NOW..... and if they don't lose hope at that point, then they might get lost, not knowing how to go about getting good enough for that node they had a taste of.

Whereas.... progressing through a series of (what are actually fairly short, other than TNW) solo quests, which give you the basics of fighting, the lore of the game and introduces game mechanics... and guides you through the star chart and levelling up your gear - the players are going to be given level appropriate enemies to fight in a way that can be a challenge without it seeming unbeatable odds.  They might feel inspired to progress.

It's also not just about the weapons though.  Because you could argue that a MR1 player could just buy a good weapon from the market and then jump into lvl 55-60 missions.  Until players get comfortable with bullet jumping, maps like Sanctum are going to be very painful to navigate.

Some of the quests introduce players to gameplay mechanics that prepare them for doing the same things in missions - but in a quest you're given more assistance, you don't have squadmates doing it for you (so you have to actually learn how to do it, can't be carried through).... which I argue is better than just throwing players into something like void cascade completely unprepared.  (The 'give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish' thing)

 

Another point is that the "annoyance" of working your way around the starchart and grinding nodes is actually essential to gathering resources.  Time and time again I see people speeding through the starchart trying to speedrun their way to the "end" - and constantly hitting crafting roadblocks because they run out of credits and resources.  Because they don't bother to stop to break crates or loot chests when they play, don't grind the same nodes unless they absolutely have to.... and then wonder why they are always low on resources.

So unless new players are intending to buy all their gear, they won't have enough resources to craft anything if they don't actually play the game.

 

People complain about the necramech and railjack being prerequisites for TNW, but both are incredibly useful things to have.  If you want to do Liches or grind for railjack stuff, having your own railjack is handy, and Voidrig is very helpful in some situations (and kinda necessary for others, like Orphix).  A lot of players who find a necramech useful probably wouldn't have bothered with one if it hadn't been a requirement.

[Drachnyn]

Am 23.7.2024 um 01:43 schrieb ExcaliburSpecter:

recently I've tried to introduce 4 other friends in the last 2 months into Warframe and had similar issues, the first 2 didn't even last an hour, and both quit. 1 of them made it as far as mercury then quit. when I asked them why they quit they said its too complicated, too much effort and they have no idea what their doing.

only 1 of them are still playing and I just recently helped them reach mastery 15
 

I feel like this about live service games in general now. I have no interest in trying to get into games likes The first descendent because I dont want to spend the effort to try and learn to play these games effectively anymore. I'm already invested in warframe so I dont have to spend that effort anymore but if I hadnt and you'd ask me today if I wanna come try out warframe I would probably just flat out say no.