New player experience: The lich system is too poorly explained to new players who would not be ready for it yet

[Pakaku]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Grind sequence in grind shooter? No way... You can safely igore the Lich until you are ready.

If only google existed.

How do you expect someone to google something they are completely unaware of?

[kerozen666]

9 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Aside from voice overs and QA testing I don't think it would actually take that much time, because all the components already exist and are functional. The Character design, modeling, AI, and animations all already exist, as well as the mission flow. You'd essentially take exactly what you already do with a lich and add VO explaining the basic steps to create one, show you where to get requiem mods, how to solve the lich, and then just take you through the lich and get you your first kuva weapon. It doesn't have to add much to what is already in game.

it's the qa testing tho that take a lot of resources. i'd love to see a little "the old blood" quest linked to the lich cinematic, you go through it, you get a little set of mods with only one charge left, learn the projenitor stuff... but it's sadly something that would take resources that i think should go to devellop the big project. the big pop up is sadly the more reasonable option, but gosh, it's really the least fun one

[kerozen666]

7 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Well, in order to click that tutorial button you need a bit of curiousity, awareness or/and IQ above 70. Look how many people fail to verify their waframe.market accounts. 

oh god, you know they are some wierd special kind of troglodite when they start brigning IQ in a game forum. 

[kerozen666]

15 minutes ago, hellodownthere said:

Yeah you might not be able to kill the Lich at first but the Lich doesn't go anywhere and personally the tax from doing missions on the controlled planet isn't so great that it's a burden. You kill the Kuva Larvling, click the new thing that appears on your UI, click tutorial and now you understand how to kill the new enemy you just encountered.

I just don't understand how one can get stuck not knowing how to kill it when there's a tutorial button plain as day explaining how in a step by step fashion.

 

Not only that but it doesn't bother you so long as you don't bother it, I had my first Lich for like 6 months and it never bothered me one bit because I had a long hiatus, my weapons weren't strong enough to kill it so I just stopped doing the Lich missions until I had enough firepower to take him down. 

 

I guess I just can't relate at all to it, I understand knowing beforehand would be nice but you can just ignore it forever pretty much.

you say the tax isn't so bad until it start taking sortie reward, that mission reward you've been grinding for or even an archon shard. 

plus, you seem to forget how big the grind for your requiem mod is. you have to farm a total of 8 uncommon reward from 4 different relic that drop from the same place with only one guaranteed drop every few hour. 

it's a bad grind that you should not be thrown into without being fully aware

[Drasiel]

51 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It wouldnt do anything. Modern playerrs will just skip everything skippable, ignore every voice over and information provided as shown below:

 

It would help the people that want to learn, you can't help the other kind so there's no point in considering them for this kind of player experience.

[hellodownthere]

15 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

you say the tax isn't so bad until it start taking sortie reward, that mission reward you've been grinding for or even an archon shard. 

If you can do archon hunts then this shouldn't be an issue for you and even if it is an issue it's not like they're just deleted, you get everything that was stolen back after you've vanquished it.

 

32 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

plus, you seem to forget how big the grind for your requiem mod is. you have to farm a total of 8 uncommon reward from 4 different relic that drop from the same place with only one guaranteed drop every few hour. 

No I haven't forgotten at all, it's a grindy game it's no different than opening normal relics for prime gear. You have a 50% chance to get a Requium Relic on normal Kuva Siphon missions and a 100% chance with Kuva Floods, if that's not enough then go do some Lich missions and kill the Thralls which have a 5% chance. If you don't want to do the Lich missions because you don't want it to move planets then just settle with the siphons you'll get plenty of req. relics.

[Zakkhar]

6 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

you say the tax isn't so bad until it start taking sortie reward, that mission reward you've been grinding for or even an archon shard. 

Neiter. The screen he pasted clearly states that all the yoinked items will be given back. If someone have been doing sorties or archon shards they are more than capable of ending 1000 liches. And the prizes of sortie or archon do not actually make you instantly 3 times stronger, so puttinng them into the bank doesnt make you 3 times weaker. 

Edited August 24 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

7 hours ago, Pakaku said:

How do you expect someone to google something they are completely unaware of?

What do you mean unaware of? You stab the larvaling and you immidiately get aware of. Or do we play different games?

[Zakkhar]

11 hours ago, Drasiel said:

It would help the people that want to learn, you can't help the other kind so there's no point in considering them for this kind of player experience.

People that want to learn got this:

Google and wiki. When I did that we did not have the first screen at all. You will still need wiki, because there is no in gamme information about Warfames Element corelation. I have a Wiki screenshot of elements saved as jpeg on my desktop. You will still need Wiki to figure out what kind of weapon you are getting and which Element is good (or I guess you can just ignore all that strategy stuff and do w/e).

Edited August 24 by Zakkhar

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Liberator_Numen:

Which is precisely the problem(s) we seek to rectify. If your main source of useful information isn't available in-game, then that's just bad game design. YouTubers & wiki articles shouldn't have to do a game developer's job.

what makes you think that the wiki isn't managed by devs?
and how is so much information supposed to be implemented in an action game? with an in-game internet browser, which needs loads of licenses? above all, what's the point of it on a PC? even with eve online, I preferred to read everything on the desktop.

and I hardly know of any games where devs write good guides. Guides come from people who play games and don't stare at code all day.

[Zakkhar]

7 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

plus, you seem to forget how big the grind for your requiem mod is. you have to farm a total of 8 uncommon reward from 4 different relic that drop from the same place with only one guaranteed drop every few hour. 

 

[Zakkhar]

Just now, Venus-Venera said:

what makes you think that the wiki isn't managed by devs?

Devs of Warframe? Disclaimer on Wiki site as well as on WF forums? It is managed by players who use the databases provided by the devs.

Welcome to the WARFRAME Wiki, a completely player-supported encyclopedia about the game WARFRAME. Our purpose is to create the most complete database about the game on everything ranging from gameplay explanations, weapon statistics, combat mechanics, to the titular Warframes and the background lore of the WARFRAME universe.

The wiki is maintained by countless active players and fans from around the world and we welcome anyone to join our community, share your knowledge, and make this wiki a better place. New editors are encouraged to take note of our Policies or contact an Administrator or Moderator for any questions regarding the wiki. A great place to start helping is to look into our current site-wide Projects for needed edits and contributions. Volunteer developers and researchers are always welcomed!

As Digital Extremes does not actively engage with the activity on this wiki, users are encouraged to post feedback, bug reports, or suggestions to the official Warframe website and its support page.

[kerozen666]

11 hours ago, hellodownthere said:

If you can do archon hunts then this shouldn't be an issue for you and even if it is an issue it's not like they're just deleted, you get everything that was stolen back after you've vanquished it.

 

No I haven't forgotten at all, it's a grindy game it's no different than opening normal relics for prime gear. You have a 50% chance to get a Requium Relic on normal Kuva Siphon missions and a 100% chance with Kuva Floods, if that's not enough then go do some Lich missions and kill the Thralls which have a 5% chance. If you don't want to do the Lich missions because you don't want it to move planets then just settle with the siphons you'll get plenty of req. relics.

you seem to forget the time investment it take to farm the relics, something that never change, high gear or not. again, you only get ONE guaranteed relic every few hours, and it might not even be one you need. and all that time investment comes after something you would have started without any ingame info of what was ahead. 

[kerozen666]

5 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

What do you mean unaware of? You stab the larvaling and you immidiately get aware of. Or do we play different games?

mate, please go bsorb some sunlight, your habit of never going ourside is making you as smark as a rock. you are stright up saying there that we get get the necessary info AFTER getting the lich. so unless you live with precience, yes, you are unaware of info that comes after you do something

[Zakkhar]

20 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

you are stright up saying there that we get get the necessary info AFTER getting the lich. so unless you live with precience, yes, you are unaware of info that comes after you do something

Thats how it works in life. Why would it work differently in game? You either do something and face the consequences or do not do anything and live you life grieved and guilt-ridden unaware what would happen if you took a chance. Can you imagine how boring the gaming would be if you knew exactly what is gonna happen before you did something?

PS: Chill with the ad personam please. It doesnt work on me. It just makes you sound weak.

Edited August 24 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

36 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

you seem to forget the time investment it take to farm the relics, something that never change, high gear or not. again, you only get ONE guaranteed relic every few hours, and it might not even be one you need. and all that time investment comes after something you would have started without any ingame info of what was ahead.

You cant be serious. What do you mean it may not be even relic you need? You will need multiple relics of every kind and multiple requiem mods of every kind. What time investment? Playing the game? Or waiting for the Kuva Siphons/Flood to respawn? This is a grind shooter, grinding is the gaammeplay. There is no magical investment you do to get "passive income" and no longer need to be playing the game. You grind stuff to get more stuff to be able to grind other stuff in more fun or/and more efficient way. Farming siphons - gameplay, fun. Farming requiem fissures - gameplaay, fun. Killing liches - gameplay, fun. If any part of gameplay doesnt give you fun then do not engage in it. Nobody is forcing anyone. You can pay to skip gameplay if you want. Buy the requiem mods for plat.

Edited August 24 by Zakkhar

[Venus-Venera]

Zitat

"Disclaimer on Wiki site "

it doesn't matter where something is written.
I can write a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that it's reality.

the fact is:

1. wiki is very professionally designed
2. it has a very uniform structure and shows a trace of the same authors
3. it is updated very quickly
4. we know nothing about the administrators and mods there. So people who filter information
5. text "official wiki"

therefore it is very naive to believe that the people are independent and don't get funding.

[kerozen666]

32 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Thats how it works in life. Why would it work differently in game? You either do something and face the consequences or do not do anything and live you life grieved and guilt-ridden unaware what would happen if you took a chance. Can you imagine how boring the gaming would be if you knew exactly what is gonna happen before you did something?

PS: Chill with the ad personam please. It doesnt work on me. It just makes you sound weak.

really not beating the "never see sunlight" allegation. If you went out you'd know that most things have instructions before you do it, usually because the law require that you are well aware of what you are getting into before signing up. Beside, if informing you of how things work beforehand made things boring, then why do all the criticly acclaimed games have totorials? yes, even dark souls has one, even if it's so poorly implemented if actually drives some people away

[dwqrf]

il y a 17 minutes, Venus-Venera a dit :

I can write a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that it's reality.

You don't say.

[hellodownthere]

38 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

you seem to forget the time investment it take to farm the relics, something that never change, high gear or not. again, you only get ONE guaranteed relic every few hours, and it might not even be one you need. and all that time investment comes after something you would have started without any ingame info of what was ahead. 

Again it's a 100% chance from Kuva Floods, 50% chance from Kuva Siphons and 5% chance from any Thrall you kill, you get plenty of Requiem Relics if you're actively farming them and as for the chances for the relics itself to give you a mod...

 

Intact relics have a 22% chance to give you a requiem mod and radiant relics have a 40% chance to give you a requiem mod, It may or may not be the one you're after for that Lich but does it really matter? You'll need it regardless for future Liches/Sisters anyway so there no harm in getting them now. Warframe is a grindy game, if you're complaining about this then you might as well complain about how we farm primes.

 

Might not get the relic you want, it has a much bigger pool on which relics can drop and even when you do get the relic you want you still might not get the item you wanted. Requiem relics are completely fine in their current state, Personally I want DE to bring back the tower key system but I also understand why they removed it and replaced it with relics. There's just no reason to change it, you can say that we only get 1 guarenteed requiem relic per hour but are you actually going to ignore the 50% from Siphons and the 5% from Thralls (which appear at least like 7 times per Lich/Sister mission giving you at least 1 per mission)? You seemed so focused on the Kuva Flood and I don't know why other than it being the only mission that has a 100% chance to give a requiem reilc.

18 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

it doesn't matter where something is written.
I can write a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that it's reality.

the fact is:

1. wiki is very professionally designed
2. it has a very uniform structure and shows a trace of the same authors
3. it is updated very quickly
4. we know nothing about the administrators and mods there. So people who filter information
5. text "official wiki"

therefore it is very naive to believe that the people are independent and don't get funding.

It's very easy to find out more about the Warframe Wiki admins...

 

Quote

WARFRAME Wiki Administrators, or officially referred as Tenno Chroniclers, are elected by fellow admins and Digital Extremes on an as needed basis and by watching the activities of contributors to see that they are in line with Fandom etiquette and reflect Digital Extremes in a good light. Each of them are expected to fulfill a set of roles, including community moderation and site maintenance, on a voluntary basis.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki:Administrators#Administrators

[dwqrf]

il y a 42 minutes, Zakkhar a dit :

You either do something and face the consequences or do not do anything and live you life grieved and guilt-ridden unaware what would happen if you took a chance.

Yup, like trashing a topic with non sense but still being surprised it makes people upset.

[kerozen666]

12 minutes ago, hellodownthere said:

Warframe is a grindy game, if you're complaining about this then you might as well complain about how we farm primes.

that's the thing about prime grind, YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING INTO and are ALWAYS the one that initate it while fully informed. plus a prime has les parts and so much more ways to aquire relics, for a grind that even if you don't get what you need, you are still making progress toward something else (ducats, other primes, formas). when you farm liches, you only get lich stuff, bare the bit of kuva you get and maybe a weapon exilus if you get lucky

all you're doing right now trying to pretend like it's nothing is show everyone that you have no sense of enpathy and would really be uncomfortable to hang with

[Venus-Venera]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb hellodownthere:

It's very easy to find out more about the Warframe Wiki admins...

made-up nicknames and random profile pics mean nothing to me. who are these people and how are they financed?

warframe had 26 million accounts 7 years ago according to an employee. and the company certainly has several million in annual revenue. do you really believe that THE MOST IMPORTANT SOURCE OF INFORMATION is managed by some random players?

come on..........................

[Pakaku]

8 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

What do you mean unaware of? You stab the larvaling and you immidiately get aware of. Or do we play different games?

That's the problem, you only learn about it in-game after stabbing the larvling and getting locked into the system.

[MrDugan]

I've been saying this from the start:  There should be a solo quest where a player has to take on a lich that has to be completed before larvalings/candidates start spawning.  The quest would provide mechanical instruction on how to start the process, but also do two other things.  The first is that the quest should take place in a way where the lich doesn't steal from the player, so that if they can't handle it yet, they don't have to deal with that issue.  The second is that it would gate players off from liches until they can actually contribute to the fight.  Not MR locked.  Just skill/gear locked.  If you can't take on a leveled up lich solo (maybe not even a 5, just SOME levels.) then you're not ready.

This prevents newbies from getting locked into content they can't handle, prevents weak players from expecting to get hard carried into some of the strongest weapons in the game, and would be good for DE as well.  If players can't rush toward meta weapons without having to prove themselves first, they have to engage with the rest of the arsenal.