Brakk, Bronco, And Bronco Prime Comparison.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Does that DPS take reloading/time to empty clip into account?

 

Btw your Sobek base stats is wrong

 

The pellets count for all shotguns are likely wrong too. As far as i know, unless DE change them in U11, which they did when they buff Boar prime

 

Sobek - 4

Bronco, Bronco Prime, Dual Broncos or Hek - 7

Boar  - 8

Boar prime - 9

Brakk, Strun, or Strun Wraith - 10

 

Doesn't make sense for unmodded pellet damage to not be whole number anyway.

I'm doing calculations per pellet for shotguns so I set it up so that they'd all be related to the pellet count in the event my estimate was wrong (I couldn't find precise numbers).  Thanks for pointing out the error on the Sobek.  I accidentally gave it the total damage of the Hek.

 

And the DPS stat I listed does not include reload (that said, the ranking should still be the same).  That said, since then I've adjusted some builds and the difference has only become more extreme with the Brakk going up to 102k burst DPS against armored targets.

[Definitegj]

I'm doing calculations per pellet for shotguns so I set it up so that they'd all be related to the pellet count in the event my estimate was wrong (I couldn't find precise numbers). Thanks for pointing out the error on the Sobek. I accidentally gave it the total damage of the Hek.

And the DPS stat I listed does not include reload (that said, the ranking should still be the same). That said, since then I've adjusted some builds and the difference has only become more extreme with the Brakk going up to 102k burst DPS against armored targets.

I doubt ranking will be the same, at least not that far apart. You can use those pellets number now, should be right, i hope lol. Edited December 7, 2013 by Definitegj

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I doubt ranking will be the same, at least not that far apart. You can use those pellets number now, should be right, i hope lol.

Here's the new system against armor in terms of burst DPS alone:

 

EDIT: looks like the forums are throwing a hissy fit :(

 

Synapse: 12k DPS

Soma: 24k DPS

Boar Prime: 58k DPS

Brakk: 102k DPS

Dual Broncos: 105k DPS

 

I left Dual Broncos off the list of burst damage because their sustained DPS is abysmal and they only have a slightly lead in burst DPS while the Brakk has the highest sustained DPS in the game

Edited December 7, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[fatpig84]

Personally if they dropped it to 120 Damage.

And kept everything the same, more people will be happy.

 

Look at the S Wraith, it went from 190 to a mere 150 damage and the complaints are still not that bad XD.

[Definitegj]

Here's the new system against armor in terms of burst DPS alone:

 

EDIT: looks like the forums are throwing a hissy fit :(

 

Synapse: 12k DPS

Soma: 24k DPS

Boar Prime: 58k DPS

Brakk: 102k DPS

Dual Broncos: 105k DPS

 

I left Dual Broncos off the list of burst damage because their sustained DPS is abysmal and they only have a slightly lead in burst DPS while the Brakk has the highest sustained DPS in the game

Can kindly tell me which column should i look for in your spreadsheet for sustained DPS? Not interested in Burst DPS when it only lasted for one magazine (first 5 ammo, 1 sec)

Edited December 7, 2013 by Definitegj

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Can kindly tell me which column should i look for in your spreadsheet for sustained DPS? Not interested in Burst DPS when it only lasted for the one magazine (5 ammo, 1 sec)

modded sustained DPS before resistances are applied is column CO.  I did not bother to calculate sustained DPS by resistance.

[Definitegj]

modded sustained DPS before resistances are applied is column CO.  I did not bother to calculate sustained DPS by resistance.

OK, thanks.

[Definitegj]

 

Sobek mag size is wrong too.

[Khranitel]

Brakk wins overall in 6 categories: Accuracy, Magazine Size, Status Chance, Normal Attack Overall Damage, Crit Chance, and Polarities.

 

It ties with Bronco as best in 3 categories: Firing Rate, Reload Speed, Crit Damage.

 

It ties with Bronco Prime in 0 categories.

 

It loses or ties with losing in 1 categoriy: Normal Attack Base Damage Type Against Shields (Note: This simply means that Brakk wins fighting against -everything else-).

And all of this fails to the fact that you doing 1-digit damage with Brakk to anything further than 15 meters because of damage falloff. Yeah, veeery comprehensive and thorough research.

Neither Bronco(-s) nor Prime doesn't have damage falloff.

For the record, the distance between the doors in typical small Warframe room is around 30 meters.

 

TL;DR - Shut up.

Same to you, Mr. Wannabe Researcher.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Khranitel

[xAASGARDx]

Why compare brakk to broncos anyways? Granted all of them are classified as shotgun type secondary weapons but let's not overlooked.... Brakk is describe in-game as a HAND CANNON in the first place whereas, broncos are small-scale shotguns..

 

Or not unless the devs just pulled a hoax through the play of words they used to describe Brakk....

 

Let the described hand cannon function as such, otherwise please change the description 'cause its misleading.

 

Reff: description in-game

 

Brakk> Simple but powerful. The semi-automatic Brakk hand cannon delivers a lot of punch in a small package.     

Bronco> The BRONCO is a small-scale shotgun that can be wielded with one hand. Only effective at close range, it has limited clip size.

Bronco Prime> Infused with rare Orokin alloys, the BRONCO PRIME is a highly efficient weapon. Trading an increased clip size and damage for a lower rate of fire.

[NalkorRN]

 

Let's go down the list.

------------------------------------------------------

Firing Rate

 

Bronco = 5.0 rounds/sec. Bronco Prime = 4.2 rounds/sec. Brakk = 5.0 rounds/sec

 

Best to worst: Bronco = Brakk > Bronco Prime.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Accuracy

 

Bronco = 3.7. Bronco Prime = 3.7. Brakk = 7.1

 

Best to worst: Brakk > Bronco = Bronco Prime.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Magazine Size

 

Bronco = 2, Bronco Prime = 4, Brakk = 5

 

Best to Worst: Brakk > Bronco Prime > Bronco.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Reload Speed

 

Bronco = 1.0, Bronco Prime = 2.0, Brakk = 1.0

 

Best to Worst: Bronco = Brakk > Bronco Prime.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Status Chance

 

Bronco = 2.0%, Bronco Prime = 2.5%, Brakk = 10% (checked it ingame just now.)

 

Best to Worst: Brakk > Bronco Prime > Bronco

 

------------------------------------------------------

Normal Attack Overall Damage

 

Bronco = 105.0, Bronco Prime = 140.0, Brakk = 150.0

 

Best to Worst: Brakk > Bronco Prime > Bronco.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Normal Attack Base Damage Types

 

Bronco and Bronco Prime are based soley around Impact damage. Brakk is MUCH more rounded.

 

Best to Worst: Bronco = Bronco Prime > Brakk if fighting Shields. BUT seeing as Corpus both use shields AND are Flesh (Crewmen), the actual Best to Worst for overall gameplay: Brakk > Bronco > Bronco Prime.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Crit Chance

 

Bronco = 2.5%, Bronco Prime = 2.5%, Brakk = 15%

 

Best to Worst: Brakk > Bronco = Bronco Prime

 

------------------------------------------------------

Crit Damage

 

Bronco = 200.0%, Bronco Prime = 150%, Brakk = 200%

 

Best to Worst: Bronco = Brakk > Bronco Prime.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Polarities

 

Bronco = None. Bronco Prime = None. Brakk = V and -

 

Best to Worst: Brakk > Bronco = Bronco Prime.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

So, let's add it all up.

 

Bronco wins overall in 0 categories.

 

It ties with Bronco Prime as the best in 1 category: Normal Damage Type against Shields. 

 

It ties Brakk as the best in 3 categories: Firing Rate, Reload Speed, and Crit Damage.

 

It loses or ties with losing in 7 categories: Accuracy, Magazine Size, Status Chance, Normal Attack Overall Damage, Crit Chance, and Polarities.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Bronco Prime wins overall in 0 categories.

 

It ties with Bronco as best in 1 category: Normal Damage Type against Shields.

 

It ties Brakk as the best in 0 categories.

 

It loses or ties with losing in 6 categories: Firing Rate, Accuracy, Reload Speed, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and Polarities.

 

------------------------------------------------------

Brakk wins overall in 6 categories: Accuracy, Magazine Size, Status Chance, Normal Attack Overall Damage, Crit Chance, and Polarities.

 

It ties with Bronco as best in 3 categories: Firing Rate, Reload Speed, Crit Damage.

 

It ties with Bronco Prime in 0 categories.

 

It loses or ties with losing in 1 categoriy: Normal Attack Base Damage Type Against Shields (Note: This simply means that Brakk wins fighting against -everything else-).

 

 

Best to Worst: Brakk <-- Bronco <- Bronco Prime. (this is according to category wins, ties, and losses.)

 

 

My Thoughts:

 

Why is everyone complaining? Because they didn't do the research. They immediately read that DE "nerfed" Brakk and instead of stopping themselves and actually using their brains, they did what any typical adolescent would do and kneejerked themselves right off a cliff.

 

Brakk straight up wins or ties with winning in every single category other than Impact damage (damage against Shields), and as stated in my Note, it sacrifices the slightly less Impact damage to do more damage to other enemy types.

 

The biggest things it wins is Mag size, Status Chance, Normal Attack Overall Damage, Crit Chance, and Polarities. 15% crit chance? 10% status chance? This is the only weapon out of these three that you can have whatever build you desire on it AND the only one that's completely viable against every enemy in the game. High crit build? Go for it. High base damage? Go right ahead. Elemental builds focusing on proc chance? Yup, can do that too. And TWO polarities; both slots able to fit in the most powerful of damage/crit boosting mods, while Bronco and Bronco Prime have...nothing.

 

Frankly, Bronco Prime users should be the ones angry. The only real strength Bronco Prime has over Bronco is 2 extra ammo per magazine (which is ruined by have DOUBLE the reload time) and slightly more overall damage.

 

Brakk is not only the most powerful of these three, but it's also the most well rounded, in every. single. category. It STILL murders everything in its range. Yes - it has fall off now. But so does every other shotgun-esque weapon in the game. It was completely needed - absolutely no weapon should have absolutely no weaknesses. You want range to go with your Brakk? There's an armory full of Primary weapons you can use to pick off those pesky long ranged enemies.

 

TL;DR - Brakk still owns. Shut up.

So instead of pushing for nerfing the Brakk, push for the Bronco/Bronco Prime to be buffed up to be legit sidegrade to the Brakk.

[SoulEchelon]

And all of this fails to the fact that you doing 1-digit damage with Brakk to anything further than 15 meters because of damage falloff. Yeah, veeery comprehensive and thorough research.

Neither Bronco(-s) nor Prime doesn't have damage falloff.

For the record, the distance between the doors in typical small Warframe room is around 30 meters.

 

Same to you, Mr. Wannabe Researcher.

 

Well aren't you a mad person. Here's something you didn't seem to figure into your own "research", and unlike you, I won't stoop to your level and insult you while I copy/paste what I stated on the first page to someone else.

 

"Either way, Brakk's damage output and potential without forma'ing is just plain incredible, and Bronco/Bronco Prime's accuracy is half of Brakk's. Which means that even if they don't have fall off, only a small amount of pellets would actually hit a long ranged enemy."

 

Couple this with the fact that, with all the math that's been flying around by many others who have posted in this thread stating how inconceivably powerful Brakk still is..Yeah, even with Bronco/Bronco Prime's lack of fall off, Brakk still destroys them in almost every situation. Both Bronco/Bronco Prime's only true strength is no fall off, and yet they can't even capitalize on this strength very well because their pellet spread is enormous at long range.

 

Infact, WHY are you wanting to use a shotgun-esque weapon for long range shootouts anyway? Did you know that there are other weapons that would do a thousand times better - many of them Secondaries? Lex, Vastos, Magnus, Despair, Hikou, Kunai, Gremlins - the list goes on. There are high accuracy, high powered secondaries that point and laugh at the Bronco when it comes to long range (and in some cases, short range) capabilities. No, if you're going to use the Broncos, you're going for low-mid range, unless you specifically want to weaken your damage output by firing it long range.

 

 

So instead of pushing for nerfing the Brakk, push for the Bronco/Bronco Prime to be buffed up to be legit sidegrade to the Brakk.

 

Oof you didn't have to quote my whole post. Just -snip- or something next time. But anyway,

 

I think Bronco's fine. It's a mastery level 0 weapon so shouldn't really be much stronger than it currently is. Bronco Prime however I agree should have some sort of buff in some way. Nothing gigantic, but something that will at least make players want to obtain it. Currently most people balk when they see a Bronco Prime part in their end of mission rewards. That needs to change.

 

 

 

Why compare brakk to broncos anyways? Granted all of them are classified as shotgun type secondary weapons but let's not overlooked.... Brakk is describe in-game as a HAND CANNON in the first place whereas, broncos are small-scale shotguns..

 

Or not unless the devs just pulled a hoax through the play of words they used to describe Brakk....

 

Let the described hand cannon function as such, otherwise please change the description 'cause its misleading.

 

Reff: description in-game

 

Brakk> Simple but powerful. The semi-automatic Brakk hand cannon delivers a lot of punch in a small package.     

Bronco> The BRONCO is a small-scale shotgun that can be wielded with one hand. Only effective at close range, it has limited clip size.

Bronco Prime> Infused with rare Orokin alloys, the BRONCO PRIME is a highly efficient weapon. Trading an increased clip size and damage for a lower rate of fire.

 

I do agree I was surprised to find my "Hand Cannon" shooting like a shotgun. I mean it does hit like a freakin' cannon, but the description could have been clearer.

 

As for comparing them, well it's because they all work like shotguns. And the main thing people were crying over was that "Durr Bronco/Bronco Prime is better in every way to Brakk now Hurrr!" And so I felt the need to shove the actual facts in front of these people.

Edited December 7, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[DeejayPwny]

As has been stated, the falloff is the issue. Removing the falloff and taking out something else, like status or CRIT, would put the Brakk at a much more balanced state, because right now, the Brakk just isn't worth using.

On another note, compairing starting polarities is just silly. Brakk was an event weapon, of course it had polarities, that's one of the perks. (Event weapons should be balanced around Clan Tech, which should be balanced as endgame gear.) Either way, polarities are just silly to point out because forma does that. All starting polarities do is save you a forma or 2, and that should be the advantage event gear should give.

Also, what's with all the confusion on Hand Cannon. Yes, hand cannons in the real world aren't shotguns, but in warframe they have been. See the Bronco Series? Those are labeled as hand cannons.

Edited December 7, 2013 by DeejayPwny

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Sobek mag size is wrong too.

ty

[Sebastianx]

As has been stated, the falloff is the issue. Removing the falloff and taking out something else, like status or CRIT, would put the Brakk at a much more balanced state, because right now, the Brakk just isn't worth using.

 

[ArmyOfFun]

[15,25].

 

I'd have to get a Bronco Prime to compare, but really the Brakk is still great. Still OP, even. The only thing I don't like is the fall off, and I don't even want it removed. I think if the fall off was increased to 15 meters, but Impact/Puncture/Slash damage was changed to 60/40/45, and Status chance was reduced to 2% OR Crit chance was reduced to 5% would make it more or less balanced. I like increasing the fall off range because I think it makes the Brakk more unique, as a hand-cannon as compared to a pistol-shotgun, and the damage redistribution and crit or status nerf would make it more balanced than the fall-off does. Either way, those crying obviously haven't used it since the rebalance.

 

You could also reduce the firing rate to 4.8/sec.

I thought hek was one of the tighter spread shotguns along with sobek hitting [20,30] with boar prime and S wraith at [15,25].

[SoulEchelon]

As has been stated, the falloff is the issue. Removing the falloff and taking out something else, like status or CRIT, would put the Brakk at a much more balanced state, because right now, the Brakk just isn't worth using.

On another note, compairing starting polarities is just silly. Brakk was an event weapon, of course it had polarities, that's one of the perks. (Event weapons should be balanced around Clan Tech, which should be balanced as endgame gear.) Either way, polarities are just silly to point out because forma does that. All starting polarities do is save you a forma or 2, and that should be the advantage event gear should give.

Also, what's with all the confusion on Hand Cannon. Yes, hand cannons in the real world aren't shotguns, but in warframe they have been. See the Bronco Series? Those are labeled as hand cannons.

 

Then Bronco/Bronco Prime aren't worth using, if all you're going to do is focus on how good they are at long range. There are many, many other weapons that have better damage at longer ranges. Hell, the throwing melee weapons have better damage at longer ranges. I mean, to use -your- logic, ALL shotguns aren't worth using, because they all have fall off.

 

And I compared the polarities for extremely obvious reasons. We're not talking about what weapon is an event weapon or not - we're talking about how powerful these weapons are and how powerful they can become with the least amount of effort. Brakk decimates them both in both categories. It's as simple as that.

 

If you truly believe Brakk isn't useful anymore JUST because it has damage fall off, then good. At least now the more stubborn people will start using different weapons-oh wait, they'll all just go back to Acrid. *sigh*

Edited December 7, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[DeejayPwny]

Then Bronco/Bronco Prime aren't worth using, if all you're going to do is focus on how good they are at long range. There are many, many other weapons that have better damage at longer ranges. Hell, the throwing melee weapons have better damage at longer ranges. I mean, to use -your- logic, ALL shotguns aren't worth using, because they all have fall off.

And I compared the polarities for extremely obvious reasons. We're not talking about what weapon is an event weapon or not - we're talking about how powerful these weapons are and how powerful they can become with the least amount of effort. Brakk decimates them both in both categories. It's as simple as that.

If you truly believe Brakk isn't useful anymore JUST because it has damage fall off, then good. At least now the more stubborn people will start using different weapons-oh wait, they'll all just go back to Acrid. *sigh*

No other shotgun is as brutal on the falloff as Brakk, and the closest thing to the Brakk in weapon type is the bronco, with no falloff. And as I said before, even reducing the falloff scale on it to 15/20-25 would be a fine compromise. With the current spread, no falloff would still barely hit where you aimed, and with the current falloff it's barely better than a Melee weapon (although the embolist still takes that cake)

Also, I'm glad you think I'm going back to the acrid because I'm displeased with the Brakk, no, really, thanks for being so obviously prejudiced against people with overpowered weapons. I'll be messing with Magnus and Aklex, thanks.

Edited December 7, 2013 by DeejayPwny

[notHunky]

The Bronco Prime needs a buff to reload speed, badly.

[SoulEchelon]

No other shotgun is as brutal on the falloff as Brakk, and the closest thing to the Brakk in weapon type is the bronco, with no falloff. And as I said before, even reducing the falloff scale on it to 15/20-25 would be a fine compromise. With the current spread, no falloff would still barely hit where you aimed, and with the current falloff it's barely better than a Melee weapon (although the embolist still takes that cake)

Also, I'm glad you think I'm going back to the acrid because I'm displeased with the Brakk, no, really, thanks for being so obviously prejudiced against people with overpowered weapons. I'll be messing with Magnus and Aklex, thanks.

 

Did I state -YOU- would be going back to Acrid? I thought my statement was pretty clear, since I used -THEY- instead of -YOU-. People who only want to focus on overpowered weapons would be going back to acrid. I don't make direct assumptions towards one person.

 

The "brutal" fall off for Brakk is heavily justified simply because, even with the damage rebalance, it's still one of the most powerful weapons in the game. It should stay relatively close range, and 10-20 meters is nowhere close to typical melee range. I'm not sure why people are trying to bring up melee when the longest melee weapon, Orthos Prime, can't hit 10+ meters away unless you use its jump slam AOE. And even if it could, both of the strongest melee weapons - Orthos Prime and Galatine - are slash oriented while Brakk is more rounded, has higher base damage, can shoot faster than either melee's base swing speed, and has all the strengths of a gun type weapon.

Edited December 7, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[DHKany]

I don't feel like quoting it so,

 

I love you.