Brimir Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) Sure, but you're referring to it, and it only. No I am not. I used it as an example - because as I mentioned it is a hot topic issue. Now you're willfully misrepresenting my position. Edited December 8, 2013 by Brimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudPies Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 No I am not. I used it as an example - because as I mentioned it is a hot topic issue. Now you're willfully misrepresenting my position. Look at iron skin, no idea why it was changed (logically), aside from people crying nerf. Trinity still has the same effect, but for the entire party. Its instances like this that indicate logical arguments on the forums doesn't necessarily lead to the most prompt changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) This needs to be stickied. I would love for that to happen (which is probably why I am stealth-bu... ummmmmmmmmmmmmm... >.>) Sure, but you're referring to it, and it only. Look at iron skin, no idea why it was changed (logically), aside from people crying nerf. Trinity still has the same effect, but for the entire party. Its instances like this that indicate logical arguments on the forums doesn't necessarily lead to the most prompt changes. Regarding this point... I am not sure of the state of iron state prior to my entry into the game, but I can suppose it was because Iron skin: 1., Costs less and 2., Lasted longer on average. On the other point, it is not just about whether logical arguments were what caused changes in the past. It is about whether they should be what cause changes in the future, as opposed to just people waving banners and making noise. A forum where logical arguments are the norm, and not the exception, is the ideal we should all strive for. It is perhaps, in the spirit of the Man of La Mancha, an Impossible Dream. But it is the best quality of humanity that we strive to do what is best, even if it may never come to be. Edited December 8, 2013 by TheThreadWeaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulEchelon Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Totally agree with this. +9001 if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altale Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Regarding this point... I am not sure of the state of iron state prior to my entry into the game, but I can suppose it was because Iron skin: 1., Costs less and 2., Lasted longer on average. iron skin used to be duration based and you could tank any and all damage taken during this time. i personally don't see why everyone gets so upset when these changes happen. it's still beta and everyone seems to forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 iron skin used to be duration based and you could tank any and all damage taken during this time. i personally don't see why everyone gets so upset when these changes happen. it's still beta and everyone seems to forget that. Very true. You've got a good head on your shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Connor Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Complaining about changes to a BETA is flat out stupid. DO you think you know better than the devs? You don't. If they change something it's usually for the better. If it isn't, they'll soon fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freelancer27 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 -snip- Your 'Thread' 'Weaves' into a success. May your profits prosper more than what Alad V has made over a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaths.Reap3r Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I agree 100% but the thing is... people dont like change. When they get used to it they dont want it changed because they're used to it. If DE randomly decides to give everyone 1000 plat, some people will still dislike it. (Because they paid to get 1k plat and people are getting it for free when they could have waited and gotten it for free. Different topic) But point is. You change something people are used to and then they're going to want to Find you and eat your babies. Its normal. The way some people react however... isnt. Take youtube comments system change for example. People were like pissed off more than ever to the change that youtube made. But now people calmed down and you barely ever see bob and his army taking over youtube. TL;DR Things will die down and people will start being more calm about changes and THEN act smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Not-an-Xbox Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I agree OP! People forget that these are normal people too working on making their game better. Sure, the players may not always see eye to eye with the Devs and their choices but that is normal. It doesn't mean jump on the forums and start trash talking them. This is an F2P game after all. There is nothing that forces you to pay them anything. As a result, if you don't like their game, don't play it! Enjoy the game and be patient; fixes and balance will all come with due time :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 Complaining about changes to a BETA is flat out stupid. DO you think you know better than the devs? You don't. If they change something it's usually for the better. If it isn't, they'll soon fix it. I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple of pointe here. There is nothing wrong with lodging complaints in a Beta, so long as they are well-founded. The Dev's have more or less invited criticism through the very creation of these forums, along with the feedback subforums. Accruing feedback and responding to it is all part of what it means to be Beta. We are very much in an experimental state of the game, where we are doing a lot to feel out the boundaries of what the game should or shouldn't be. This is why we are encountering issues like the Brakk change, or the Rhino iron skin tweaks, or the rebalances to frames like Volt and, soon, Ember. Regarding the idea that we don't know better than the dev's... you're right. Most, if not all of us, don't. We have no idea how the game is coded, what their general mindset is, or what their plans are past the next update. However, one must also come to the realization that the dev's are not psychic. They will not know how well a change works if we do not communicate with them and give them feedback. It is part of our duty as Beta players to tell them what is on our minds and convey to them our desires for the future of the game and its elements. What we can offer the dev's is a fresh set of eyes, a different perspective on problems and puzzles that they are constantly working through. This game invites collaboration between the producer and the consumer to create the best possible experience. And part of that collaboration is knowing how to conduct oneself in a way that is mature and constructive. Thus the reason for this thread. I agree 100% but the thing is... people dont like change. When they get used to it they dont want it changed because they're used to it. If DE randomly decides to give everyone 1000 plat, some people will still dislike it. (Because they paid to get 1k plat and people are getting it for free when they could have waited and gotten it for free. Different topic) But point is. You change something people are used to and then they're going to want to Find you and eat your babies. Its normal. The way some people react however... isnt. Take youtube comments system change for example. People were like &!$$ed off more than ever to the change that youtube made. But now people calmed down and you barely ever see bob and his army taking over youtube. TL;DR Things will die down and people will start being more calm about changes and THEN act smart. Agreed. People hate change. This is very close to being one of the core laws of humanity. However, not everyone acts this way because they mean to. What a lot of people end up doing is bandwagoning. Take for example the most recent change, regarding the Brakk. Within the first hour several dozen people began to put up a call against the change. The reason this is odd is because most of them had seen the changes and instantly assumed the worse. They created a self-feeding mechanism of loathing, with most of them spending more time on the forums than actually in the game, testing the Brakk in different scenarios. A lot of other people followed suit not because they had gone through any negative experience, but because they saw others lodging complaints. This is the basic incarnation of a mob mentality. The purpose of this thread in promoting a more logical, calm approach to changes is to deter this kind of mob mentality. It may be futile, yes. But it would only be a true failure if we failed to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 I agree OP! People forget that these are normal people too working on making their game better. Sure, the players may not always see eye to eye with the Devs and their choices but that is normal. It doesn't mean jump on the forums and start trash talking them. This is an F2P game after all. There is nothing that forces you to pay them anything. As a result, if you don't like their game, don't play it! Enjoy the game and be patient; fixes and balance will all come with due time :) Well, not quite. While you are right there that the devs are only human and we should be patient with them, we also need to advocate for ourselves. The devs can't read our minds, nor do they have hidden camera's positioned in optimal locations in our households. The only way to be heard if you have a legitimate issue is to speak up. Of course, how someone speaks up is as important (maybe even more important) than why someone speaks up. For example: Instead of passive-aggressive jabbing them over a lack of an update to, say, Ember, one should find a more agreeable way to ask if something is getting looked at or in the process of getting looked at. One way to do that is thus: "DE, I remember that back in Update ___ / Livestream #___, you mentioned that you would be making changes to X, Y and Z. Are you still making changes to those, or were those plans dropped?" Being kind and courteous and clearly stating what one wants will always get more results than just dancing around an issue and being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidWraith Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) -snip- While this is true and I highly agree with it. We are still humans. We may have our moments of weaknesses and poor wording choices. Not all of us keep ourselves in check all the time. I wouldn't say people forget, but more like, "in the heat of the moment" kind of thing. But yes, before we voice our...disagreements, we should take a few minutes to calm down before voicing concerns/disagreements. Edited December 8, 2013 by VoidWraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) While this is true and I highly agree with it. We are still humans. We may have our moments of weaknesses and poor wording choices. Not all of us keep ourselves in check all the time. I wouldn't say people forget, but more like, "in the heat of the moment" kind of thing. But yes, before we voice our...disagreements, we should take a few minutes to calm down before voicing concerns/disagreements. Agreed on all points. Edited December 9, 2013 by TheThreadWeaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmegaDas Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Well said, that being said the recent Brakk nerf has been the most negatively received nerf so far. I'm honestly too lazy to post my own constructive feedback about the situation, but i guess DE shouldn't have made such a big change (range nerf) to such a difficult to obtain weapon (well, tedious really). Just my 2 cents. But great article :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianx Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 You didn't have a 4) yesterday and I wrote "4)Cry hard enough : If you cry hard enough you'll eventually get what you want -see Brakk after 11.2.1-" but apparently someone removed my comment :) nice going forum mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psroij Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Much as I like the intentions of this thread there is an old saying that is as true for game forums as everything else: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." Well thought out, rational feedback is often ignored. A mass of whining, crying players/customers/constituents are often not ignored, even if the whining, crying mass is being overly emotional, irrational, and hostile. We've seen it plenty of times in this very forum. Someone already brought up the issues with RNG, which had many, many, many people rationally and calmly pointing out it appeared to be broken, but it was not until datamining absolutely proved it and caused more and more people to behave loudly and emotionally that it got fixed. The event where DE had to publicly apologize to the players and prompted them to give the players free plat did not occur because people were calmly going, "Yo, this was kind of messed up." It happened because a huge mass of players were ready to riot. OP, in a perfect world your system would work and is the proper way— I encourage you, and everyone to keep the course of rational debate and feedback. But it is not a perfect world, and the loud and obnoxious are frighteningly effective, so I can only hope they are loudly obnoxious for causes I support than vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 You didn't have a 4) yesterday and I wrote "4)Cry hard enough : If you cry hard enough you'll eventually get what you want -see Brakk after 11.2.1-" but apparently someone removed my comment :) nice going forum mods. Yes, I do recall you had that post. I also recall making a post about how I'd wanted this thread to remain calm and coherent, and not just another Brakk rant thread. Both of those posts were removed by the mods - yours possibly because it was seen as baiting, mine because it had lost its context as a reply to yours. Much as I like the intentions of this thread there is an old saying that is as true for game forums as everything else: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." Well thought out, rational feedback is often ignored. A mass of whining, crying players/customers/constituents are often not ignored, even if the whining, crying mass is being overly emotional, irrational, and hostile. We've seen it plenty of times in this very forum. Someone already brought up the issues with RNG, which had many, many, many people rationally and calmly pointing out it appeared to be broken, but it was not until datamining absolutely proved it and caused more and more people to behave loudly and emotionally that it got fixed. The event where DE had to publicly apologize to the players and prompted them to give the players free plat did not occur because people were calmly going, "Yo, this was kind of messed up." It happened because a huge mass of players were ready to riot. OP, in a perfect world your system would work and is the proper way— I encourage you, and everyone to keep the course of rational debate and feedback. But it is not a perfect world, and the loud and obnoxious are frighteningly effective, so I can only hope they are loudly obnoxious for causes I support than vice versa. I counter "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" with "Squeaky wheel gets replaced." Parlance aside, you are mostly correct. Problems are identified by way of complaint, and only really gain headway with a show of interest. And a riot does draw more attention than a protest. However, what I am trying to preach here isn't a means of simply calling attention to an issue. I am trying to convey methods of communication which will also help a person suggest a solution to the problems at hand, possibly in ways that would be more advantageous than saying "Nerf Please" and then leaving the dev's to their own devices. Now I'm not saying that the dev's can't handle things by themselves. I'm just saying that rumors of their psychic talents have been greatly exaggerated. If we, in addition to identifying problems, posted ideas and solutions in a well-thought-out manner, their jobs would be much easier and we could shape the game with a lot more ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pisirk Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 how to get what you want 1.drink a lot of water like a bit more than your backyard pool 2.add a pinch of salt for every gallon you drink 3.make sure you don't pee until the drinking is done 4.think really really really hard about what you want 5.are you still reading this? 6.cause I lied it's not going to work 7.actually i didn't 8. if you're crying, then it's working 9. quickly get into a room with someone and shut the door 10. ask them for something you want 11. cry harder if it doesn't work rinse and repeat. Warning: do not drown your victim or else you won't get what you want. If you didn't follow the instruction clearly you might lose your left pinky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar-Sandwich Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 well earned bump. I wish there were less trolls and more lols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 how to get what you want 1.drink a lot of water like a bit more than your backyard pool 2.add a pinch of salt for every gallon you drink 3.make sure you don't pee until the drinking is done 4.think really really really hard about what you want 5.are you still reading this? 6.cause I lied it's not going to work 7.actually i didn't 8. if you're crying, then it's working 9. quickly get into a room with someone and shut the door 10. ask them for something you want 11. cry harder if it doesn't work rinse and repeat. Warning: do not drown your victim or else you won't get what you want. If you didn't follow the instruction clearly you might lose your left pinky. Witty, but the whole "People who cry get what they want" thing isn't really in the spirit of this thread. well earned bump. I wish there were less trolls and more lols. Thank you very much. This is my wish as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostAlone Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Yes, I do recall you had that post. I also recall making a post about how I'd wanted this thread to remain calm and coherent, and not just another Brakk rant thread. Both of those posts were removed by the mods - yours possibly because it was seen as baiting, mine because it had lost its context as a reply to yours. I counter "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" with "Squeaky wheel gets replaced." Parlance aside, you are mostly correct. Problems are identified by way of complaint, and only really gain headway with a show of interest. And a riot does draw more attention than a protest. However, what I am trying to preach here isn't a means of simply calling attention to an issue. I am trying to convey methods of communication which will also help a person suggest a solution to the problems at hand, possibly in ways that would be more advantageous than saying "Nerf Please" and then leaving the dev's to their own devices. Now I'm not saying that the dev's can't handle things by themselves. I'm just saying that rumors of their psychic talents have been greatly exaggerated. If we, in addition to identifying problems, posted ideas and solutions in a well-thought-out manner, their jobs would be much easier and we could shape the game with a lot more ease. The problem with all this is that there is already plenty of those ideas and suggestions and whatever going around these forums. We have a subforum where people generally do give reasonable feedback phrased in a reasonable way. Unfortunately, like almost every other game with similar fora, not enough people are paying attention over there for it to ever make a real difference. Especially when we are talking about things that are genuinely broken, the loudness of the dissent is what determines how important it is to fix. Just having a lot of +1s doesn't mean a whole lot to the devs. Even the very biggest threads on these forums cap out way below 100 posts. A hundred up votes isn't anything like enough of an endorsement for the devs to make a change they weren't planning to. If people are angry, well that can make a difference. It pushes things up the agenda, because we're in a service relationship here. It's really important for DE to fix something that people are genuinely aggrieved about. When it sounds like people just kinda vaguely agree with something then it can slide. As for making suggestions for things, as opposed to direct complaints... Suggestions (much like opinions) are like rectums. The only ones I take an interest in are my own, and very occasionally my fiancees. I'm sure DE feels the same. It doesn't matter how nicely phrased or well constructed your post is, they aren't going to pick up a good idea from the forums. They have a roadmap and it's been set in stone for a long time by the time we hear about it. Edit - As an aside - Every thread I've ever seen asking for a meaningful end game for Warframe has absolutely been well written, not insulting, unemotional, etc. People offer really constructive ideas about where the game could be going, and no-one starts screaming and wailing (or whaling come to that), because those are interesting threads to discuss things in. Everyone wants there to be some real endgame, so there's no-one really stopping it just being a reasonable discussion. There are disagreements about PvP vs PvE, about persistent things, about the role of clans etc, but you get a decent standard of conversation. And the end result of these threads (and posts in other threads asking for the same thing) ? Nothing. Not a squeak. Not happening. DE hasn't even acknowledged that they need to add that to the game. Edited December 10, 2013 by LostAlone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 The problem with all this is that there is already plenty of those ideas and suggestions and whatever going around these forums. We have a subforum where people generally do give reasonable feedback phrased in a reasonable way. Unfortunately, like almost every other game with similar fora, not enough people are paying attention over there for it to ever make a real difference. Especially when we are talking about things that are genuinely broken, the loudness of the dissent is what determines how important it is to fix. Just having a lot of +1s doesn't mean a whole lot to the devs. Even the very biggest threads on these forums cap out way below 100 posts. A hundred up votes isn't anything like enough of an endorsement for the devs to make a change they weren't planning to. If people are angry, well that can make a difference. It pushes things up the agenda, because we're in a service relationship here. It's really important for DE to fix something that people are genuinely aggrieved about. When it sounds like people just kinda vaguely agree with something then it can slide. As for making suggestions for things, as opposed to direct complaints... Suggestions (much like opinions) are like rectums. The only ones I take an interest in are my own, and very occasionally my fiancees. I'm sure DE feels the same. It doesn't matter how nicely phrased or well constructed your post is, they aren't going to pick up a good idea from the forums. They have a roadmap and it's been set in stone for a long time by the time we hear about it. Edit - As an aside - Every thread I've ever seen asking for a meaningful end game for Warframe has absolutely been well written, not insulting, unemotional, etc. People offer really constructive ideas about where the game could be going, and no-one starts screaming and wailing (or whaling come to that), because those are interesting threads to discuss things in. Everyone wants there to be some real endgame, so there's no-one really stopping it just being a reasonable discussion. There are disagreements about PvP vs PvE, about persistent things, about the role of clans etc, but you get a decent standard of conversation. And the end result of these threads (and posts in other threads asking for the same thing) ? Nothing. Not a squeak. Not happening. DE hasn't even acknowledged that they need to add that to the game. I agree with you. Really, I do. I recognize that, in a very practical sense, this is how things are. Like you, I've seen it all before. I know that noise and clamor will always draw attention with greater efficiency than any reasoned argument. The average cry of "fix this or I will quit your game and tell all my friends it is S#&$" will always cause greater jump in priorities than measured, calm suggestions. That's how the world works. That's how the world is. But that's not how it should be. That's not how it has to be. I don't want to just settle for "This is the way things are, so we have to deal with it." I'm tired of simply reacting and waiting for others to solve a problem that I have pointed out. I'm tired of being a reactionary force. That's why I am promoting not only identifying problems, but closely examining them and offering precise, well-founded solutions. It doesn't matter if they don't get the same immediate attention. It doesn't even matter if they fall into obscurity because, at the time, they just weren't as important. What matters is that people tried to tackle the issue in a way that is more constructive than just complaining, that people are exercising their ability to think critically. If you still find issue with how I think people should do things, that's fine. More power to you for being an individual, and having your own opinions. But I'm going to keep trying to promote this way of thought because I believe it's the way to make these forums and this game better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luanle21 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Good feedback! Sadly emotions sometimes get the best of us. Although sometimes that can be a good thing. It reminds you the passionate feels to why you dislike certain stuff. Though I agree you need to keep it under control when writing feedback/complaints. We can't agree with everything but overall I believe that the Warframe devs do listen and have the best intentions for the community. They're the best I've experienced so far c: yes and everyone has their pissed off rage moment unless u keep seeing it everywhere then that just a troll dear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreadWeaver Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 yes and everyone has their &!$$ed off rage moment unless u keep seeing it everywhere then that just a troll dear True. It's acceptable for people to get upset. We are only human, after all. But the people who can't push their emotions aside... maybe they just need a little more time away from the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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