De, It's Time To Stop Relying On Rng Instead Of Game Design

[TurtleWood]

Game is dead once you hit mastery level 14.

[Xrylene]

Game is dead once you hit mastery level 14.

 

I'd argue it's dead before that. Sure, you can grind out weapon after weapon, frame after frame on your way from rank 1 to 14, but the experience doesn't change, you have a number to show you're progressing, but nothing other than that.

 

I don't really think progression is possible in a game like this in a sense other than a purely numerical form. If they strive for that, they'll forever be dependent on cranking out recolours as they have been for a while, while will scare off all but the grindiest of players. More likely, they should make good on what they seem to think the game is, and work on the sandbox elements to make it actually a sandbox at endgame. How they're work it to make it replayable and fun I don't know, but the way it is now it won't work.

[Makya]

I wonder what could DE do to lock a new weapon/frame behind a Non-RNG route, that would not simply be branded 'too grindy', yet would have people taking 20 or so hours to gain? Any ideas?

[TurtleWood]

True. Basically the state of the game now is: grind days or weeks (depends on your play time) for frame/weapon, collect resources to build it and collect it after 12hrs/24hrs/3days, use it for one or two hours and get it to level 30 then rarely touch it ever again. Rinse and repeat. Warframe gameplay is far from rewarding. 

 

On a side note, rushing out new weapons, frames for more grind is a poor attempt at prolonged players's game time. 

Edited January 22, 2014 by TurtleWood

[ZephyrPhantom]

Bump.

 

I've started to notice that it seems that RNG isn't the only bandage fix that is becoming really apparent at this point : see this thread discussing lack of direction, for example.

 

We were promised RNG would be addressed 3 weeks ago. Now granted, the Harvester spawn was buffed and guaranteed dropping does remove one layer of RNG (still grindy as hell and more RNG walls than Stalker), but aside from that and judging on the latest stream, the devs are scattered working on Jungle tileset and a various mishmash of things that don't all quite seem like top priority - the only things I see that really address the 'game design' part that has been discussed in various threads are the new enemy faction + a new planet (finally) and possible stealth additions for the Forest tilesets. (Nice to hear, but wasn't the real issue with stealth that there was no encouragement to do it to begin with?)

 

I feel like DE is potentially stepping in the right direction, but a bit more momentum needs to be given onto non-RNG content that actually matters. Warframe still is mostly a grind at this point and could use more variety in its expansions.

Edited January 25, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[Xrylene]

Bump, this isn't something that suddenly stops becoming a problem.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Bump, this isn't something that suddenly stops becoming a problem.

 

What more is there to say? This thread passed the QQ stage, passed the constructive criticism stage, and is now settling in to the hibernation stage. Later it will be rediscovered and brought back to light by a necromancer and the whole discussion will start again. It hasn't been asleep long enough for that surge of activity to be likely (anything is possible).

[Jenove]

What makes you think founders have more sway than other users? I agree with rng being horrible by the way.

Actually If I remember correctly Founders have their own forum/chat just between them and the devs, and thus get priority in attention from the devs. That is what he is implying, some founders even have developed near personal relationships with some of the devs.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Actually If I remember correctly Founders have their own forum/chat just between them and the devs, and thus get priority in attention from the devs. That is what he is implying, some founders even have developed near personal relationships with some of the devs.

Haha, you mean the DC? Masters/GMs don't even get to make threads there (and it's not all founders, just Masters/GMs).

 

Founders are listened to the same amount as any other user.

Edited January 30, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[shinydunsparce]

Haha, you mean the DC? Masters/GMs don't even get to make threads there (and it's not all founders, just Masters/GMs).

 

Founders are listened to the same amount as any other user.

 

Which I am just fine with, just because they have more money doesn't mean they have better ideas.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Which I am just fine with, just because they have more money doesn't mean they have better ideas.

Yup, I agree. Ideas should be listened to based on their merits, not how much money the person has.

 

I just find it funny that people think that founders have some magic hot line to give DE ideas.

[RustyNaps]

How much pages and views will this take to get pinned.

[r0ckwolf]

I did not take the time to sort through your entire post, because i felt that after reading the first 4-5 sentences i knew that you were right. I dedicated an frustrating amount of my own free time as well during the last year to make DE acknowledge how unbelievably flawed this Design Choice is.

 

Relying on this sort of RNG content release is something that is known in gamedesign comunitys as an "infinite gameloop"! and it´s something you wanna avoid at all cost. It traps the Player in an infinte Cycle of acquiring the next best piece of Gear, while constantly pushing the Dev´s to release new Gear. The Player get´s more and more frustrated over time, since he is eventually about to realize, that he is not acomplishing anythig by simply feeling bored, but the worst thing about it is that as you already stated in your post it corupts and polutes the game itself, the need to constantly realease new content means that the new content has to be better then the old one, resuting in continous "powercreep" making hard earned older gear obsolete over time! Additionally with limited place to farm in, everything is getting harder to acquire by lowering the chance for each item everytime something new is released.

 

There is no FIX!!! The Design itself is just Buged....

 

The only possible and in my opinion MUCH NEEDED thing to do is, an complete and drastic Designshift!!!

For example.

-Make Every Weapon and Warframe available, one decent requirement for some high end gear could be the Mastery Rank, but even that is not required. 

-Stop realeasing Weapons all together for a while, there 3x times more then we need, much more time and focus should go into make each Weapon and Warframe unique and interesting. Homogenization is the Enemy of Fun!

 

What is left to do then in Warframe you ask??? Good Question?! ;) For now....NOTHING!!!! Did you notice something? That´s right! That´s all there is at the moment: to farm for stuff!! The Gamedesign has to focus on fun game mechanics and rewarding Missions and Tasks. You should want to log in everyday because you have fun playing and be rewarded with cool stuff/gear while doing so. That is how it should be, without any gameloops! At the moment you log in, because you feel like you have a certain goal, like a weapon or something else and once you acquired it the fun in using it can begin. The only problem is once you acquired you new shiny piece of gear you notice that you don´t know what to do now, since there is nothing to do. So you do what you already did, look for the next piece of gear, most often something that conveniently has just been released and continue to farm!

 

DE has stated multiple times that this is intended, aparently their resaerch has shown that lack of content means death for F2P Games. That might be true, but content does not equal Gear!!!

 

I´ve mostly given up on trying to acomplish anything regarding this issue, since i tried it for a year with zero success, i´ve stoped playing Warframe for the most part and i´m just monitoring what´s happening to the game. without a serious Overhaul that tackles the unbearable repition this game offers, i don´t believe it will live past it´s current hype. But i sincerly hope it does! It has the potential to be the best F2P Game yet and change how we think about these types of games. Time to live up the task DE....

 

Greetings

 

r0ckwolf 

[se05239]

How much pages and views will this take to get pinned.

 

It will never get pinned cause DE will not listen.

[Stefanovich]

RNG is abused beyond comprehension in Warframe.

 

DE, pls.

 

Stop RNG abuse.

                   ~Sincerely,

                     The Entire Warframe Community

[Brasten]

Stefanovich, on 02 Feb 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

~Sincerely,

The Entire Warframe Community

Except for some lucky shills who don't understand statistics.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Except for some lucky shills who don't understand statistics.

 

You don't have to be a shill to understand that where there are (perceived) negative extremes, there are also (perceived) positive extremes.

[Stefanovich]

Bump. An issue this big simply doesn't dissapear...

[ZephyrPhantom]

Well, let's see. 2 weeks after my original bump, we now have two fully Infested Corpus planets (Europa and Eris) being taken over by the Grineer in invasion due to the Detron's tipping the balance in favor of the Grineer.

 

While it's not the main issue with the Detron (the real issue is the whole imbalanced rewards factor), the problem has been made a lot worse by the RNG walls that are part of the Detron. Now, if this had been another weapon put in a 'fixed area' that doesn't change like Void or Derelict, it'd just be another bandaid weapon that DE hopes will count as 'actual content'. As is, however, the RNG walls have extended the amount of artificial time needed to get the Detron to a ridiculous amount, leading to the lopsided solar system balance seen above. Plenty of threads have been made about this, but as it is yet another blunder by DE with RNG, it's pretty darn relevant here.

 

DE has stated that Volt, Banshee, and possibly Zephyr/Birdframe will be released in Clan Dojo Research. While this sounds promising, it doesn't say anything about how grindy researching all the parts and BPs will be, so I'll hold my judgement on that until it comes out.

 

Just some food for thought :

 

- To some extent, enemy spawns in most games are RNG-based on some level. However, in Oxium Epsionage, it is completely possible to head to a  high level Corpus Mobile Defense or Defense mission and get enough enemies to spawn that you'll get at least 10-15 Oxium per run (25-50 if you're lucky and/or if players coordinate). Do you guys think this is a good way to reward people who invest more time/skill in the game? (If you want a guaranteed crack at X, head to a high level area where X high level spawn is pretty much guaranteed.)

 

- Oxium Espionage also had a 50-Oxium requirement to get a relatively minor mod, Aviator. While Aviator itself isn't very impressive, would you guys like to see more of this kind of "Hit some simple X requirement, get a small reward" type of thing? (I personally would be very in favor of a seeing a small newbie quest that goes "Kill 50 Grineer, get a Hornet Strike and Serration." This would help alleviate the steep difficulty curve in a newbie experience and give a guaranteed short-term reward that encourages them to stay into the higher levels of play.) It is probably also worth noting that DE has -two- ways to implement this kind of system - the 'ticker' type shown in the Oxium event, and those little 'achievement' windows we constantly see ingame with minor stuff like "Get 10 headshots" or the like.

 

- Buildng on the above point - there are some pretty basic essentials in this game that aren't guaranteed for newbies at all, like Hornet Strike and Serration. The things that are guaranteed (better weapons) cost a pretty hefty amount of credits at that stage in the game. (Strun comes to mind.) While I do hope DE's newest additions to "endgame" will address the endgame RNG factor that players with not much else to do face, they should also be taking a look at how RNG cramps newbie experience and what steps they can take to improve that. (More players retained at entry level = bigger audience to attempt to retain at mid/end game.)

 

- As for the endgame content itself - sure, more content is nice, I'd like to bring something that has probably come up before - where's the content that rewards player for actual skill? We already have a bit of groundwork for that in Mastery Tests, which unlock more gear when they are completed and have been about all sorts of things ranging from speedkilling to hacking to parkour and heck, even stealth. Why don't we see more of those challenges ingame, especially if you are going to release areas that encourage overlooked mechanics like stealth? Offer some notable reward like a weapon blueprint or lategame warframe part (e.g. Trinity, Frost, Saryn) that way, and Warframe would take a step towards being a skill-based game instead of just rewarding the next random person that gets lucky.

Edited February 3, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[NikolaiLev]

Bump, this isn't something that suddenly stops becoming a problem.

 

Yeah, but it doesn't seem like DE cares, going by their "hot topics" list which is, amusingly (and tellingly) shrinking and shrinking as they grasp for straws to avoid discussing Actual Problems.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Yeah, but it doesn't seem like DE cares, going by their "hot topics" list which is, amusingly (and tellingly) shrinking and shrinking as they grasp for straws to avoid discussing Actual Problems.

Oh, good I'm not the only person who's noticed they have fewer and fewer "hot topics", and only once in a blue moon actually have a real hot topic in them, although the statements on those are noncommittal shrugs from DE more or less.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Please keep your complaints focused on RNG issues and not other things like Grind (seriously? You're in the wrong genre) and DE's habit of using words like 'soon' rather than 'next week'.

[Xrylene]

Please keep your complaints focused on RNG issues and not other things like Grind (seriously? You're in the wrong genre) and DE's habit of using words like 'soon' rather than 'next week'.

 

Squirmy, no offense but you've been with this thread pretty much from it's beginning, you should know that grind is a big part of it. The thread's core idea is to call DE out on the fact that they're designing stuff badly in two ways, it's grindy rather than fun, and the grind itself is RNG, which results in extremes where the "content" gets blown through too fast or far too slowly due to how the game drops things.

 

Even if we get the RNG fixed, the issue of lack of real content remains, I for one do not believe genre excuses that kind of design philosophy, and even if I did, Warframe is worse than many when it comes to faking content.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Squirmy, no offense but you've been with this thread pretty much from it's beginning, you should know that grind is a big part of it. The thread's core idea is to call DE out on the fact that they're designing stuff badly in two ways, it's grindy rather than fun, and the grind itself is RNG, which results in extremes where the "content" gets blown through too fast or far too slowly due to how the game drops things.

 

Even if we get the RNG fixed, the issue of lack of real content remains, I for one do not believe genre excuses that kind of design philosophy, and even if I did, Warframe is worse than many when it comes to faking content.

 

No, the complaint with grind was the lack of progression in that grind caused by it being a completely RNG based thing. If you do not like the grind, complain about the features causing it. 

 

Not going to really reply to this second bit since I can already tell you and I will disagree and our disagreement will not end in anything productive.

[ZephyrPhantom]

No, the complaint with grind was the lack of progression in that grind caused by it being a completely RNG based thing. If you do not like the grind, complain about the features causing it.

Just my two cents, but your and Xrylene's statements seem to have a lot in common, just with a different focus : lack of a progression caused by completely RNG based grind shows bad design, and the "features causing it" are the constant band-aid fixes of mostly guns/occasional frame (sometimes with even more RNG, as Detron demonstrates) - at best, there is very little variety in content, at worst, it can have negative impact on the game like the lopsided Invasion system.

 

(Something else worth noting - the Detron was originally not intended as something for players to grind for. However, a significant number of players responded to "stop caring about the Detron" with "there's nothing else left to do in this game".)

 

In regards to the lack of responses by DE as of late - I personally think U12 will be a good testing ground to see how much DE actually tried to address RNG - we already have promises of a new planet, new enemies, more stealth, and Volt/Banshee/"Zephyr" being (hopefully not grindy) clan-tech, and hopefully Melee 2.0 in a later U12 hotfix. I'm personally waiting to see what happens this Wednesday; with any luck, their actions will speak better than their words (of lack thereof) have.

Edited February 3, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom