Who Is The New Useless Frame?

[Doom_Bunny]

Nah, I meant carry. I guess I've been putting out too many applications. lol

 

1. That's incorrect. DE said they were going to make it work like this, but it didn't really work out.

2. It isn't all that much energy, and you're only putting yourself in danger if you weren't paying attention to your location. I also play with my FoV turned up so i don't have alertness issues.

3. Terrible scenario that I never find myself in since I play smart, but I'll bite. To fix that problem, you just place a decoy to draw them away. You could even just switch teleport past them since there aren't any normal enemies tall enough to completely fill up a hallway.

4. Yeah... no. Maybe you just need to learn to play with Loki, just like how you tell people they aren't playing Nekros properly.

 

I wasn't talking about 4 Loki's in a ODS (you brought up ODS), but 4 Loki's in a defense is pretty amazing.

 

 

Tight tunnels still have ceiling room, you can use that to teleport past.

 

 

Redirection isn't needed for Loki. The fact that you keep bringing up damage leads me to believe you are either new and/or have yet to play anything where frame damage falls-off. Which makes no sense since your little info box clearly shows you have been here long enough to not have this excuse. All of Loki's abilities are useful and none of them fall-off.

 

 

No, he has four good abilities. If you think Decoy is useless you obviously do NOT know how to use him.

 

 

I have a Loki build that ignores invisibility and focuses on the other three abilities instead, it is actually my favorite build for him right now. The only reason I even keep invisibility on is so that I can revive people who go down.

 

 

Why not? He's a great starter frame, and he (hopefully) helps teach new players that damage abilities are not all that matter.

I wouldn't disregard what you or others have to say cause all of these post are based off expereinces of the player. So you say since you've played Loki that you have either had or have the opposite experience and thoughts about Loki. Thats good but next time I suggest instead of trying to further your argument of "Loki the god frame" I suggest you tell us of not just the ups but also the downs in your experience with Loki. It would also be helpful if everyone posted why they vote for certain useless frames or don't vote for certain frames.

[yuikami]

What is Ember doing on Low tier o_O put her behind cover and she still pwns

 

This is how I see them in my 1600hr experience;

God [sPEEDRUN]; Loki, Nova, Rhino
High [Party to Win]; Trinity, Vauban, Frost
Mid [Good for something]; Oberon, Nyx, Nekros, Excalibur, Ash, Ember
Low [unnecessary]; Volt, Saryn, Mag, Banshee

Wot?; Valkyr [Other than not dying and running around, Other Frame can replace her in a mission anytime]

[SquirmyBurrito]

I wouldn't disregard what you or others have to say cause all of these post are based off expereinces of the player. So you say since you've played Loki that you have either had or have the opposite experience and thoughts about Loki. Thats good but next time I suggest instead of trying to further your argument of "Loki the god frame" I suggest you tell us of not just the ups but also the downs in your experience with Loki. It would also be helpful if everyone posted why they vote for certain useless frames or don't vote for certain frames.

 

I wasn't trying to further the 'Loki is God Tier' argument, I wasn't even making that argument. I was just trying to firmly establish that he is not low or useless tier. He isn't even mid tier. He is at the least, high tier as all his abilities 'scale' and unlike Vauban his abilities work against two of the three main factions (vortex hardly works against Grineer and Corpus unless Loki is there to help, which should tell you something about Loki). I don't really have much negative to say about him, that's the problem and the main reason why I tend to come across as a blind Loki follower.

 

I'll try and come up with a quick list of cons before I head off to sleep, keep in mind this list will be small because many of his main cons are covered by pros.

 

1. Low Shield/Health/Armor values. -Covered by invisibility and high movement speed making him pseudo-invincible.

2A. No direct damage skills. -Because of this, none of his abilities fall-off in viability when enemies get higher in level.

2B. Dependent on his weapons because of 2.

3. Works best when paired with good mods, ill equipped players will have trouble. -this is true of every frame to some extent.

4. Um... people like to make fun of his helmets? That's all I've got (and I was trying).

 

I'm not going to lie, Loki is currently my favorite frame (I even have two of him), but I am making an effort to be objective here. I'm probably not being 100% successful though ;P

Edited January 22, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Regar]

pool votes are not that useful withou a valid argumentation, i expressed my opinion already anyway, i hope that de will look at it xD

[Scar.Heart]

I'm a tad surprised to see Nyx/Trinity not in God tier.

 

I suppose all four abilities have to be useful then?

[Garuger]

Top tier Nyx/Rhino/Nova/Trinity

 

Mid tier :the rest 

 

Low tier :Banshee/Nekros/Valkyr

 

Useless Tier : ember 

[greyf0xuk]

As someone with around 700 hours played, mr14, and all frames leveled and potatoed (and many with multiple Forma), I'd rank the frames as follows.

General List:
• High: Frost, Loki, Nova, Nyx, Rhino, Trinity, Vauban,
• Mid: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Nekros, Oberon, Volt
• Low: Saryn, Valkyr,

The list above represents the various frames' strengths over a variety of missions and play styles. I honestly feel that there is no "God Tier" or "Useless Tier", so long as you consider the game as a whole.

However, if you start looking at very specific aspects of the game, you could of course modify the list. For example, if you were only worried about soloing bosses, certain frames would shine. If you are only concerned with high-level conclave it would be different again. If you consider the current "end game" meta, which revolves heavily around very high level static defensive missions (Defence, Survival), that list changes drastically.

Current Meta "End Game" List:
• "God": Nekros (for Survival only), Nova, Trinity,
• High: Frost (lower vs Infested), Nyx, Rhino, Vauban (higher vs Infested)
• Mid: Banshee, Ember, Mag (higher vs Corpus), Loki
• Low: Ash, Oberon, Excalibur, Volt
• "Useless": Saryn, Valkyr

The list above highlights two main issues: Firstly, certain frames just excel in defensive missions. This is a problem which could be reduced, but never solved; some frames will always be better at certain play styles. Certain frames could have their niche widened (looking at you Nekros!) to be useful in a broader number of situations, but given the choice I'd prefer a varied (but unbalanced) roster, to a balanced (but &*$$genous) one.

The second issue though, which I think can be solved, is one of scaling. Certain frames, especially those with raw damage abilities, simply do not scale well enough to compete against high level enemies. Ash, for example, feels really good in solo play. With a decent build he is viable for most content. However, put him up again high-level Survival or Defence enemies, and he starts to feel like dead weight.
 

Edited January 22, 2014 by greyf0xuk

[Phoenix86]

You guys gotta learn to play Banshee... is nowhere near bottom or low tier.

[AntLion]

In-game time: About 1200 hours.

I played all frames solo and with team and tested them on high level missions (35+lvl), T3 void defenses, 30+min survival runs and other hard challenges. My results of frames' effectiveness (including inner tier gradation):

 

Top Tier: Rhino > Nova

High Tier: Trinity > Vauban > Nyx

Mid Tier: Frost > Loki > Mag > Nekros > Oberon > Volt

Low Tier: Saryn > Ember > Excalibur > Ash

Bottom Tier: Banshee > Valkyr

 

Top tier frames are perfect in any situation. Great damage, crowd control and utility skills make them must have frames in any team.

 

High tier frames are very useful for team. Their utility or crowd control skills can increase survivability and compensate lack of damage. Their abilities need minor tweaks.

 

Mid tier frames are situational. Their effectiveness depends on mission type and enemy faction. They can be very good in one situation and be mediocre in another. Usually they have 2 reliable abilities that determine their role in team. Other skills need fixes to make these frames more useful and multipurpose.

 

Low tier frames are barely effective (usually they are victims of mindless nerfs). They have problems with abilities scaling (just 1 ability is really useful against high level enemies). They can complete your team but they will never be its core in current state. Their skills need good buffs.

 

Bottom tier frames not only have weak abilities but they also have great problems with their survivability. They can't offer significant support for team and can be replaced by any frame. These frames have bad design from the beginning and need completely rework as soon as possible.

Edited January 22, 2014 by AntLion

[ZT0100]

Having potatos and corrupted builds for all the frames, my thoughts are as follows:

General List:

• High: Frost, Loki, Nova, Nyx, Rhino, Trinity, Vauban,

• Mid: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Nekros, Oberon, Volt

• Low: Saryn, Valkyr,

The list above represents the various frames' strengths over a variety of missions and play styles. I honestly feel that there is no "God Tier" or "Useless Tier", so long as you consider the game as a whole.

However, if you start looking at very specific aspects of the game, you could of course modify the list. For example, if you were only worried about soloing bosses, certain frames would shine. If you are only concerned with high-level conclave it would be different again. If you consider the current "end game" meta, which revolves heavily around very high level static defensive missions (Defence, Survival), that list changes drastically.

Current Meta "End Game" List:

• "God": Nekros (for Survival only), Nova, Trinity,

• High: Frost (lower vs Infested), Nyx, Rhino, Vauban (higher vs Infested)

• Mid: Banshee, Ember, Mag (higher vs Corpus), Loki

• Low: Ash, Oberon, Excalibur, Volt

• "Useless": Saryn, Valkyr

The list above highlights two main issues: Firstly, certain frames just excel in defensive missions. This is a problem which could be reduced, but never solved; some frames will always be better at certain play styles. Certain frames could have their niche widened (looking at you Nekros!) to be useful in a broader number of situations, but given the choice I'd prefer a varied (but unbalanced) roster, to a balanced (but &*$$genous) one.

The second issue though, which I think can be solved, is one of scaling. Certain frames, especially those with raw damage abilities, simply do not scale well enough to compete against high level enemies. Ash, for example, feels really good in solo play. With a decent build he is viable for most content. However, put him up again high-level Survival or Defence enemies, and he starts to feel like dead weight.

 

I think I agree with this man completely, except maybe I'd drop Ember to the low tier.

 

 

 

You guys gotta learn to play Banshee... is nowhere near bottom or low tier.

I haven't played her yet, but she looks like mid tier material. She seems decent for crowd-controlling.  Her Sonar ability seems to be pretty good too. Not high tier material like Frost or Rhino, but definitely not low tier.

Edited January 22, 2014 by ZT0100

[Lord.Finster]

Here is my personal endgame tier list:

 

1)Rhino: 3 good abilities; CC ult with good damage, weapon damage buff, high survivability

2)Nova: 2 good abilities; CC and debuff ult with excellent range, AoE that soaks up weapon damage and therefore scales well

3)Nyx: 3 good abilities, Absorb soaks up weapon damage which scales well, Chaos is best CC in the game, Mind Control for key targets

4)Trinity: All abilities are very good, only rank 4 because she is slow and boring to play

5)Loki: 2 good abilities; permanent invisibility, Ult destroys a large amount of enemy firepower

6)Vauban: 2 good abilities; Bastille and Vortex both do excellent CC and make enmies vulnerable in their own way

7)Mag: 2 good abilities, Pull is spammable CC on demand, Bullet attractor is good against enemy heavies

8)Frost: 1 excellent ability; guess which one

9)Necros: 1,5 good abilities; Terrify is good CC and debuff with medium range, Desecrate for looting runs, ult is impractical to use

10)Excalibur: Radial Blind is a decent CC ability with a nice after effect, his Ult is decent when you know how to position yourself

11)Oberon: well balanced frame, endgame useless

12)Saryn: Well balanced and therefore useless

13)Volt: Shield is arguably good, damage spells have a small CC element, Speed is only good for speedruns (not part of endgame atm)

14)Ember: Damage, damage and still more damage, specialized and useless

15)Ash: One good ability, Smokebomb has small CC and invis, Bladestorm takes control away from player

16)Banshee: One good ability, Sonar provides a fun and skillbased damage buff, Soundquake is decent CC but it takes control away from player

17)Valkyr: Fun but useless, waiting for melee 2.0 for final judgement

 

My personal opinion:

Most single target nukes are fiddly to use and suck. Shooting is more effective, precise and fun.

Melee and armour are too weak and so do all abilities that buff them.

Abilities that prevent you from using your monstrously modded guns are not worth it. They work against the metagame.

Channeled abilites aren't worth it for the same reason, they effectively cut the teams dps.

Abilities that only do damage become outscaled in the endgame and can never compete with guns.

Well balanced frames like Saryn and Oberon are useless in the endgame as their team synergy is too small. Only specialists that play well in a team work in extreme circumstances and can make full use of corrupted mods. Allrounders suffer heavily unless their skills have multiple uses (like Rhino's Stomp).

[KingTaro]

Loki higher rated than Rhino?

Oh you, I can't take this thread serious now. è_é

 

If there is any frame to stand near the king, Rhino, it would be the queen herself, Trinity!

[Phoenix86]

I haven't played her yet, but she looks like mid tier material. She seems decent for crowd-controlling.  Her Sonar ability seems to be pretty good too. Not high tier material like Frost or Rhino, but definitely not low tier.

 

The "problem" (if we can call it a problem) with Banshee is that she has a higher learning curve than the average frame...

 

She is not "easy" to play but being "not_easy" doesnt mean she is not_effective...

 

I could write a wall-o-text on how to mod/play Banshee properly and players like Sixty5 could give me a hand but i think i would be off-topic here...

 

Banshee is one of the few frames with 3 out of 4 good abilities.

[AntLion]

Loki higher rated than Rhino?

Oh you, I can't take this thread serious now. è_é

 

If there is any frame to stand near the king, Rhino, it would be the queen herself, Trinity!

And their daughter: princess Nova. :P

 

Banshee is one of the few frames with 3 out of 4 good abilities.

I don't think so. She needs rework as Valkyr.

 

Sonic Boom is ok. It's spammable and effective as 1st ability but it's not enough for end game..

Sonar is too situational and hard to use. Good luck to shoot marked legs/hands of moving or covering enemies in dark rooms or behind smoke and fire.

Silence is most useless skill in whole game.

Soundquake doesn't show great damage or crowd control. Some frames can offer more reliable cc. It leaves Banshee immobile and vulnerable. And you even can't shoot during it. Completely useless against high level enemies in solo runs.

Edited January 22, 2014 by AntLion

[Nekonomable]

The moment i see Saryn in Mid and think "someone hasnt found out her ult hits the hardest yet..." Then her Venom is GREAT for multitarget death, its like her one s a ult aoe all by itself. Molt draws fire. the only skill i find useless is contagion, due to it taking damage away.  Mid maybe cuz not many use her, but other then that... Ember should be high. Accelerant is rediculous.

[Archwizard]

Current Meta "End Game" List:

• "God": Nekros (for Survival only), Nova, Trinity,

• High: Frost (lower vs Infested), Nyx, Rhino, Vauban (higher vs Infested)

• Mid: Banshee, Ember, Mag (higher vs Corpus), Loki

• Low: Ash, Oberon, Excalibur, Volt

• "Useless": Saryn, Valkyr

 

9)Necros: 1,5 good abilities; Terrify is good CC and debuff with medium range, Desecrate for looting runs, ult is impractical to use

 

It's a bit misleading to say Nekros is God Tier for only one mission type while saying others are higher or lower against the minority of missions.

 

Personally, if you cut out Desecrate bumping it in Survivals, I think Nekros rests in the low tier. Shadows may scale if you spend time building it, but Soul Punch is basically a single-target stun in end-game, and Terrify has some major problems used as anything more than a one-time pinch radial stun.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Archwizard

[DJSmash]

How do people benchmark to come up with all this list?

[Tulzscha]

My two centavos on the where the frames stand currently.

 

God tier:

 

Nova - Antimatter Drop and Molecular Prime, absurd damage room cleansers, plus a great mobility skill

Rhino - tanking, speed (Vanguard helmet), team damage buff, AoE nuke/CC

 

High tier:

 

Loki - near-permanent Invisibility, melee DPS, owns Grineer survival

Nyx - CC queen plus great damage potential with Absorb if you have teammates who know what they're doing

Vauban - anti-Infested specialist, and pretty solid against other factions too with Tesla spam

Trinity - near-permanent godmode for everyone, and a handy energy battery

 

Mid tier:

 

Ember - still great against Infested, Accelerant + WoF owns them (went 45 mins in a solo Infested survival in Europa, racked up 1.5k kills)

Banshee - cheap CC in a pinch, team DPS boost and a reasonably wide AoE CC

Oberon - a weird Trinity/Rhino hybrid, but played well he's solid (my favorite frame for 40 minute Void Survival runs)

Frost - one-trick pony but that one trick is very good for its purpose

Excalibur - kind of turned into a Frost post-damage 2.0 in that he only has one potent trick in Radial Blind

Mag - Shield Polarize destroys Corpus, Pull and Crush decent

Volt  - Shock is one of the best cheap skills right now, Electric Shield a useful damage buff/protection in the right scenario

Saryn - Venom and Miasma have their uses, though nowhere near as potent compared to damage 1.0 pre-nerf

Nekros - useful for mod/resource farming and survival longevity due to Desecrate spam, Shadows good for holding choke points (situational)

 

Low tier:

 

Ash - tanky, but at the end of the day, only a second-rate Loki

Valkyr - at least Ripline is fun 

 

My experience: 780+ hours played, mastery rank 14

[NightBorz]

in my opinion loki+valkyr+banshee+mag are really useless because with this frames i cant survive not more than 10 - 20 Min. in Survival. But with Ash i never had any problems so for me is Ash the best Frame ever.

[greyf0xuk]

 

 

 

It's a bit misleading to say Nekros is God Tier for only one mission type while saying others are higher or lower against the minority of missions.

 

Personally, if you cut out Desecrate bumping it in Survivals, I think Nekros rests in the low tier. Shadows may scale if you spend time building it, but Soul Punch is basically a single-target stun in end-game, and Terrify has some major problems used as anything more than a one-time pinch radial stun.

 

My second list, from which you quoted, is specifically for the current end-game meta. I define that as high level Survival, and high level Defence. As noted in my first list, for the majority of missions, Nekros is average.

 

However, Nekros and his Desecrate is basically required for a good Survival run. Given two groups of equal skill, the group with a Nekros will always be able to last longer in survival maps. You can work around a lack of CC, or lack of invincibility, but the additional life support provided by Desecrate is impossible to replace. Some of the other frames are better or worse against certain factions (hence my putting them lower list), but Nekros is always an asset in Survival.

 

So in the current meta focused on long Survival runs, I maintain that Nekros is a "God Tier" one-trick pony, who will wear out your "3" key.

Edited January 22, 2014 by greyf0xuk

[Shyvorix]

Top tier Nyx/Rhino/Nova/Trinity

 

Mid tier :the rest 

 

Low tier :Banshee/Nekros/Valkyr

 

Useless Tier : ember 

Ahaha. You're funny.

At least Ember can deal decent damage if you build her right.

Valkyr on the other hand... :/

[Tulzscha]

in my opinion loki+valkyr+banshee+mag are really useless because with this frames i cant survive not more than 10 - 20 Min. in Survival

 

Hmm, are you modding or playing your Loki right? With a boosted Invisibility loadout along with Radial Disarm, going for 30+ minutes in Grineer survival is quite easy.

[Muflon33]

Has Vauban Avatar.

 

Continuity, Stretch, Flow, you really can't go wrong with him. DON'T USE OVEREXTENDED.

 

man u can use overextended but only if you have max blind rage + 99+focus 30 power(together 129)...so you dont have to worry how many enemies are in you net...man with vauban you can go wrong...but if i were you experiment with mods, maybe what works for others dont work for you..g.l:D

[Muflon33]

I like crowd control frames,not kaboom novas etc,,,banshee ,nyx ,vauban ,rhino,frost..mi top 5 if you have right setup and you love challenge,not just pressing numb 4 to blow enemies,(gets kinda boring.)..Ash ,loki great frames..Ash need some changes,4 power is not so great,i love animation but,after lv 30,useless..Trin great frame 2...

 

Ember needs redo,2 power could be great power,like iron skin just based on fire,frost needs this kind of power 2,he becomes frost giant,unbreakable ice,maybe yeti like with some mohawk...:D

 

All frames need really good 4 power not just nova,and that power without right mod cant be used like spam mail,more tactics,more fun...mi opinion...

 

General all frames with right mods are usablle but,2 much frames are not done,just out to deliver something new,ppl gets bored etc...

 

Personaly i would like to see all frames have second power like rhino just based on thier speciality/power,also 4 power must with maxed mods destroy all in the room,but cant be spam at will like now,so other ppl can enyoy playing the game not just player with nova(nothing against nova)whos spam molecular every 5 sec,and others ppl standing there like idiots..big problem...

 

Worst frame is valkyr,4 power omg wtf is that,please normal movement with some animation,shes swimming in the air,i love idea but ...man this is bad,screams like some death metal singer,she wannts shields:Dnot armor...But maybe most potential behind her....

 

I can play with all frames really good,all critical mods are maxed..but maybe for future is better to improve this 17 frames,make them better,not build new ones..i rather see frame with 4 usablle powers then new one with one...

 

an last why can we in our dojo invent /make/find some power from other frame,replace that power and make some mutant frame,no need for building new frames then,you can finish this frames that you have,make them better but then focus would be on power creation,right mods,not on downloading new update with new frame that doesnt deliver...

 

cheers:D

[ZBreaker]

Ash

He needs some utility.

Perhaps if his smoke bomb made nearby allies invisible as well. After all it is a smokebomb.

Add paralysis to blade storm and have the player only strike like 3 enemies while clones strike the rest.

Teleport just needs a little less pin point accuracy I think. Not sure about that one. Maybe keep teleport as is.

Shuriken is nice. Could use a stagger but I won't complain about it. Would make sense to stagger though since shuriken were a distraction not meant for leathal attacks.