Gigatron-Prime Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't understand all the hate towards Valkyr. I do just fine with her. Granted, she is just a press 4 warframe, but not completely useless like I've been reading about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZT0100 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 God Tier : Nova - Vauban High Tier: Rhino - Frost - Nyx - Trinity - Nekros Mid Tier: Mag - Banshee - Loki Low Tier: Ash - Ember - Saryn - Oberon - Excalibur - Volt Useless : Valkyr The true God tier is Nova( and maybe Vauban.) You can throw her( and maybe him) into any mission that she can use M. Prime and make a difference. The high tier ones are great at what they do, but can do without in certain missions. Mid tier is just good. Low tier is okay. Useless Valkyr is just useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashSpider Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 *poll updated 1st place - Valkyr 2nd place - Ash 3rd place - Banshee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplodingStars Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 *poll updated 1st place - Valkyr 2nd place - Ash 3rd place - Banshee Close enough, candidates for 2nd and 3rd place could be Nekros and Oberon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSnakeMGS4 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Loki ? Masterrace ? This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice. I really can´t stand the fact that he is pushed to heavens and other frames that do basically the same are being bashed - and the damn sound while being invisible makes Loki annoying as hell by the way - and to all complainng about Ash compared to Loki - learn to use Ash properly and he can do almost the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZT0100 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Loki ? Masterrace ? This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice. I really can´t stand the fact that he is pushed to heavens and other frames that do basically the same are being bashed - and the damn sound while being invisible makes Loki annoying as hell by the way - and to all complainng about Ash compared to Loki - learn to use Ash properly and he can do almost the same... Can Ash make those OP grineers and corpus guys lose their firepower? No. Ash is just inferior to Loki when damage abilities don't do much anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LascarCapable Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Loki ? Masterrace ? This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice. I really can´t stand the fact that he is pushed to heavens and other frames that do basically the same are being bashed - and the damn sound while being invisible makes Loki annoying as hell by the way - and to all complainng about Ash compared to Loki - learn to use Ash properly and he can do almost the same... Loki may be not the best frame in the game, but he's still a "high tier" frame. Loki is only utility. None of his abilities are damaging one, and that's not really a con, because in "endgame" damage only based skills are useless the most of time (exception : Nova's Antimatter Drop). Even if decoy is a bit too weak to be really useful, invisibility can last forever, and is just really good for reviving downed teammates. This is combined with the best speed you can have actually, making somewhat Loki the best Medic you have in case of downing (even Trinity can't do as much as him if you're downed... Because blessing won't make you on your feets if you're diying of course). Switch Teleport is still a not so bad utility. And Radial Disarm is just the best things you have in order to shut down a Napalm Squadron. Top of the hat, all of his abilities synergizes really well. He only lacks a full benefit from fleeting expertise. With an endgame point of view, Loki is really a good pick in Grineer Survivals (maybe not the best in corpus survival, because I think Mag may be better). The only faction where Loki will perform a bit worse is against infested (because you can't disarm them... Tell me if I am wrong), but he still have some utility here. Edited January 22, 2014 by Einde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BizarreFetalChimpanzee Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Ash, Nekros, Banshee, and Valkyr all need serious buffs right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris1 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 But frost is meant for defense that is its purpose . Changing that ruins him besides have you ever used overextend with his ult?Ice statues everywhere yes he's a tank but all his abilities except snow globe don't even reflect his skill set and using the overextend mod witch adds about 5-6 secs cc is not an excuse nearly everyone knows this is a bug and would be fixed and is just a silly concept of trying to go round what's wrong with him ice wave=damage not a tank ability avalanche=damage not a tank ability freeze=how this is not even damage or tank it just is a very unused skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWackyWombat Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Just based on how people are voting, and what the top/bottom frames are, it seems like the difference is as much a matter of battlefield presense, as it is power. The constant 'Top Tier' frames have abilities that typically have an immediate and noticable effect, on a wide area, and scale extremely well, or do not need to scale at all. Vauban's Bastille, and Nova's AM are examples of this. The constant 'Low Tier' frames seem to favor single/minimal targets, or have underwhelming effects compared to other versions. Nova's AM, for example, does the same damage as an instant effect, that ash's bladestorm does over time. Oberon's heal is a HOT to the team, where Trinity provides an instant heal AND invulnerbility. I think each warframe needs to have a single 'signature' ability we could compare. Although some frames have it, others clearly don't. If all frames started with a single ability, then had the other skills and look of the frame designed AROUND that, we'd have less of an issue. I feel that Banshee is an exception to the rule here, she has a few focused sound abilities like Sonic, Quake and sonar, but is actually limited by range and being rooted during her channeled ult. I HATE to bash Valkyr again *Sarcasm off starting now* but if she had been designed around the grapple mechanic, which most people seem to agree is her best ability, she would have been more interesting and not the random set of 'I do melee' skills she is now. Edited January 22, 2014 by TheWackyWombat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannaWhoopazz Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I think a lot of people are comparing different warframes in different missions. In low level missions, Ember does really well because WoF kills everything around her without an issue. But throw her in high level mission and she starts to die quickly! Nova does REALLY well in low level missions, so does Ash, Rhino, Oberon, Mag, Saryn, and any other frame that can do an ability to kill everything in the room. But those are low level missions, when a modded gun is 1-shotting everything as it is. When I think of God-Tier or Top Tier warframes, I expect them to be useful still in a high level mission: 40+ minute Survivals, 35+ wave Defenses. At that point, the 800 damage from Rhino's Stomp isn't important, but the slowdown is! The damage from Pull is no longer doing much, but the ragdoll helps a lot. God-Tier Warframes have to still be useful at high level missions, against enemies lvl 100 and higher. Vauban's Bastille and Vortex are just as effective against lvl 1 enemies and lvl 10,000 enemies! Loki will be able to take the guns away from any level enemy, and invisibility is effective at all times. Ember stops being effective though, so does Saryn, Volt and Ash. Their abilities just stop being effective at some point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MushrooMars Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Yeah, the general usefulness of a frame is very much so subjective, so we instead need to talk about the potential usefulness of a Frame. Potential means ability to be modded and ability to be played for maximum effect. To this end, we have to take power ceilings, skill ceilings and survivability into effect. Low survivability: Excalibro Ember Volt Oberon Mid-range survivability: Booben Ash Nova Banshee Saryn Nekros Mag High survivability: Nyx Rhino Frost Loki God-tier survivability: Trinity lulz Valkyr I guess Now skill ceilings High skill ceiling: Loki Booben Mid-range skill ceiling: Nova Ash Excalibro Valkyr Mag Ember Oberon Volt Banshee Saryn Low skill ceiling: Nekros Rhino Trinity Frost Nyx And finally power ceilings: God tier: Nova Nyx High tier: Rhino Trinity Ember Mid tier: Excalibro Loki Booben Saryn Mag Oberon Volt Valkyr Low tier: Banshee Ash Frost Nekros Survivability defines how resistant a frame is to being incapped, and how independent it is. Skill Ceiling defines how much a frame benefits from its user's ability to intelligently cast abilities and avoid unfavorable situations. Power Ceiling defines how much a frame is capable of doing with its powers alone, and how much it benefits from good modding. Also how dominant it is in the early game and how well it scales into the lategame. There is a fourth attribute, Team Interplay, but I can't really judge this one because it depends heavily on the team you have. To this end, we can determine that the "best" 'Frames are the ones with high survivability, high power ceiling, and either a lack of skill requirements, or a skill ceiling high enough to compensate for its otherwise lacklustre features. There are a few exemplar frames to this end. Rhino, Trinity, both of whom have ridiculously high survival potential, low skill requirements and a high power ceiling. Loki, who has average power potential and survivability, though makes up for it by how skillful the player can be. Nova and Nyx, who have such high power ceilings that player skill and survivability don't even matter. Banshee, Ash, Nekros are all good examples of Frames who are average or &#! all the way across the board. I don't really count Nekros' Desecrate into power ceiling, as Desecrate is an ability which affects the meta and only the meta, and nothing else. Well, aside from dropping Health Orbs, which is actually pretty useful. But I ramble. My point is that Warframes that have low or average power ceiling and survivability need to compensate for it with a high skill ceiling, just like Loki. Frames that could benefit from this include Banshee, Valkyr, Ash and Nekros. Warframes that have a high or god-tier power ceiling and survivability level need to be redesigned so that their raw, ugly power is devalued by poor playing, and amplified by good playing. Frames that need this retooling include Rhino, Nova, Frost and Nyx. Edited January 24, 2014 by MushrooMars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJSmash Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I think a lot of people are comparing different warframes in different missions. *Snip* Which is why I question: How do people benchmark to come up with all this list? How do you define usless? How do you compare between excalibur with rhino or ember? base on situation? base on kills? base on stats? or base on potential ability with mod usage? Potatoed? Formaed? Are you also taking into considerations of the weapon you use? Or are you just speaking your mind off? I really dont see the point in this kinda of posting. Everyone is merely sharing their thoughts base on their experience. Is that a reasonable way to evaluate/benchmark how certain warframes fare fairly? and without bias? or the thoughts of the majority outweighs the minority on certain popular/unpopular warframe? Pretty interested to see where a thorough discussion about this goes. Please stay as constructive and on-point as possible, giving details too! Most of the posting here are just random spoutting. What details should we be providing? Everyone has different experience and opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Shiro Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Frost is fine leave him as he is Don't be lazy. If you truly think you are right, provide your reasons. Mine is easy to see to anyone who've ever played Frost. We could call him globeframe instead of frost since that's all most people use from his repertoir. Actually all people since simply casting the other abilities without any real use can be considered not using it... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyssa Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I hope, before they consider changes, they consider teaching people how to play these better. Ash is winning the vote, but he's amazing for scanning runs(invisibility AND can still shoot while holding a scanner), mastery tests(invisibility and auto-homing ranged attacks), and his bladestorm is great for both buying time to heal and inflicting tons of damage. His teleport is reliable(if hard to aim). His stats are decent enough for a regular fight if it must be done, and he's got a fairly high speed. There's really no weak point in his build. Yet, the majority of players clearly have no idea how to use him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shevian Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Loki ? Masterrace ? This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice. I really can´t stand the fact that he is pushed to heavens and other frames that do basically the same are being bashed - and the damn sound while being invisible makes Loki annoying as hell by the way - and to all complainng about Ash compared to Loki - learn to use Ash properly and he can do almost the same... Ash is suck compared to loki, his only scale ability is smoke screen, the rest are useless and weak in damage. Loki's abilities doesn't have offense, but it scale no matter what level he's in. Radial disarm is one of the biggest differences between loki and ash. Regardless, I still think Ash is a great frame. but.... loki master race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris1 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah, the general usefulness of a frame is very much so subjective, so we instead need to talk about the potential usefulness of a Frame. Potential means ability to be modded and ability to be played for maximum effect. To this end, we have to take power ceilings, skill ceilings and survivability into effect. Low survivability: Saryn Excalibro Ember Volt Nekros Oberon Mag Mid-range survivability: Loki Booben Ash Nova Valkyr Banshee High survivability: Nyx Rhino Frost God-tier survivability: Trinity lulz Now skill ceilings High skill ceiling: Loki Booben Mid-range skill ceiling: Nova Ash Excalibro Valkyr Mag Ember Oberon Volt Banshee Saryn Low skill ceiling: Nekros Rhino Trinity Frost Nyx And finally power ceilings: God tier: Nova Nyx High tier: Rhino Trinity Ember Mid tier: Excalibro Loki Booben Mag Oberon Volt Valkyr Low tier: Banshee Ash Frost Nekros Survivability defines how resistant a frame is to being incapped, and how independent it is. Skill Ceiling defines how much a frame benefits from its user's ability to intelligently cast abilities and avoid unfavorable situations. Power Ceiling defines how much a frame is capable of doing with its powers alone, and how much it benefits from good modding. Also how dominant it is in the early game and how well it scales into the lategame. There is a fourth attribute, Team Interplay, but I can't really judge this one because it depends heavily on the team you have. To this end, we can determine that the "best" 'Frames are the ones with high survivability, high power ceiling, and either a lack of skill requirements, or a skill ceiling high enough to compensate for its otherwise lacklustre features. There are a few exemplar frames to this end. Rhino, Trinity, both of whom have ridiculously high survival potential, low skill requirements and a high power ceiling. Loki, who has average power potential and survivability, though makes up for it by how skillful the player can be. Nova and Nyx, who have such high power ceilings that player skill and survivability don't even matter. Banshee, Ash, Nekros are all good examples of Frames who are average or &#! all the way across the board. I don't really count Nekros' Desecrate into power ceiling, as Desecrate is an ability which affects the meta and only the meta, and nothing else. Well, aside from dropping Health Orbs, which is actually pretty useful. But I ramble. My point is that Warframes that have low or average power ceiling and survivability need to compensate for it with a high skill ceiling, just like Loki. Frames that could benefit from this include Banshee, Valkyr, Ash and Nekros. Warframes that have a high or god-tier power ceiling and survivability level need to be redesigned so that their raw, ugly power is devalued by poor playing, and amplified by good playing. Frames that need this retooling include Rhino, Nova, Frost and Nyx. much better makes more sense of how to set them in there tiers Don't be lazy. If you truly think you are right, provide your reasons. Mine is easy to see to anyone who've ever played Frost. We could call him globe frame instead of frost since that's all most people use from his repertoir. Actually all people since simply casting the other abilities without any real use can be considered not using it... :) this I have my frame built around snow globe and maybe a avalanche if I do low-mid levels, other abilities don't even consider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garuger Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Don't be lazy. If you truly think you are right, provide your reasons. Mine is easy to see to anyone who've ever played Frost. We could call him globeframe instead of frost since that's all most people use from his repertoir. Actually all people since simply casting the other abilities without any real use can be considered not using it... :) Frost is fine because his role is fine too. Her globeis strong but with an overextend a glitch occurs were his ult frozes pretty much everything in a huge radious his 1 is also good for damage same goes for ult.Built him towards damage and enjoy :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodyshk Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Loki ? Masterrace ? This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice. Hah, this is interesting, I believe exactly the opposite: very nice warframe while looking ugly as hell xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashSpider Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 *poll updated ranking is still the same for Valkyr and Ash, Nekros is slowing drawing near Banshee rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyvorix Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Ember cant do anything her animations are slow / the duration are low / low damage to anything that is above 30 no defense mechanism no survability . While Valkyr building her right can unleash more damage than Ember has better survability , she is useful to team and does not burden anyone and can be useful even at high end missions So yes Ember is garbage compared to Valkyr You obviously haven't seen a well built Ember. Her animations are slow if you consider 1.5 second casting time slow, cause in my opinion anything around that rate I don't complain about. Only her 3 is a bit slow to cast in my honest opinion, since unless you use Accelerant (WHICH YOU SHOULD ALMOST ALYWAYS, ESPECIALLY AT HIGHER LEVELS), you can easily get shot down by enemies. I've taken my Ember Prime to ODs and Tower 3s and survived well over 45 minutes without much problems. The only time I run into problems is when faced against Napalms on Grineer survivals (but one Accelerant and damage is multiplied by around 400%). I build her to give over 485 power so I can make sure I leave nothing standing. And to respond to complaints about her 2 ability, she had that removed cause they found a fragile frame to have an armor buff to be illogical (I don't really know why) but I guess they were going for a glass cannon kinda deal, except she needs better scaling really. She's ok as is, at least she can clear rooms with relative ease when fitted correctly and with a well rounded team. On the Valkyr note, I've played her almost as much as I have with Ember and she is also situational because although her ult doesn't scale right, the invincibility frame can be a TEAM SAVER in case S#&$ hits the fan. Normally if you roll with a Trinity, Valkyr doesn't need her ult to rely on at that point but it works as a failsafe. Ember doesn't scale as much as others but her AoE and Accelerant can still help quite a bit. 2 second stun? Works ok. Besides I build her glass cannon like. Only shields I focus on, armor is crap and health is meh. Learn 2 be tactical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris1 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Frost is fine because his role is fine too. Her globeis strong but with an overextend a glitch occurs were his ult frozes pretty much everything in a huge radious his 1 is also good for damage same goes for ult.Built him towards damage and enjoy :D his one good for damage ? I don't know where u been playing but its rubbish and as you just said its a bug and at some point will be fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CM-Syein Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I have problem with this poll. Obviously if you look at it, it's inaccurate. Since there are people that said frost is useless, rhino useless, nova useless....really? The poll is interesting to see, but sometimes it can be biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) in my opinion loki+valkyr+banshee+mag are really useless because with this frames i cant survive not more than 10 - 20 Min. in Survival. But with Ash i never had any problems so for me is Ash the best Frame ever. Sounds like you just need to learn to play Loki. NOTE: I have all frames reactored with corrupted mods and built correctly not in crappy ways. >1000 hours playtime. I knwo what i am talking about. Damage 2.0 ended up as nerf to some frames like Rhino and Nova, while buff to some other frames like Frost. Sorry loki fans but if you dont have CC from Nyx or Vauban your team will endded up bitten to death with sticks by Napalms and Techs. If you dont use Ult you are just boring invisible guy running around who if falls from aoe damage is problem to revive. I too have all frames potato'd, stating this does not make your opinion any more valid than the next player's. The underlined text tells me you must not know how to use Loki. You should ALWAYS pair Radial Disarm with a well placed Decoy. Vauban is crap against two of the three factions when not paired with Loki, that is not true the other way around. Loki works well by himself and benefits from squad mates, Vauban works well by himself when against infested. When put against the other factions he is meh at best unless he has teammates helping him. Loki's invisibility is great, but it is nowhere near as important as people make it out to be. The true God tier is Nova( and maybe Vauban.) You can throw her( and maybe him) into any mission that she can use M. Prime and make a difference. The high tier ones are great at what they do, but can do without in certain missions. Mid tier is just good. Low tier is okay. Useless Valkyr is just useless. Vauban is meh against two of the three factions, how does he qualify for god tier? Loki ? Masterrace ? This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice. I really can´t stand the fact that he is pushed to heavens and other frames that do basically the same are being bashed - and the damn sound while being invisible makes Loki annoying as hell by the way - and to all complainng about Ash compared to Loki - learn to use Ash properly and he can do almost the same... They fixed the sound issue. Unlike Ash, all of Loki's abilities continue to work no matter how high leveled the enemies are. There aren't many frames who can make this same claim, and Ash isn't one of them. The only faction where Loki will perform a bit worse is against infested (because you can't disarm them... Tell me if I am wrong), but he still have some utility here. Nah, against infested all the heavy lifting is already done (you don't need to disarm them since they don't have guns) so you can thwart them with a well placed Decoy. Edited January 23, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I have problem with this poll. Obviously if you look at it, it's inaccurate. Since there are people that said frost is useless, rhino useless, nova useless....really? The poll is interesting to see, but sometimes it can be biased. I think some people are just trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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