Why Does De Hate Balance?

[Ronyn]

:/ comparing a weapon to all the others (meaning people would say it's underpowered because it isn't another SWraith / Brakk / Soma, blah blah etc) wouldn't end up at a very good end. you'd have related equipment (like a single and dual Weapon) that are nowhere near each other in terms of the scope of the game. you could have a Single Weapon that old be 'useless', and then a Dual version that's new, that's within the top 5. that makes little sense.

so based on that, yes, they were 'OP'.

That is not a "sense" I accept. Its either op or its not.

How it stacks up to the single weapon variant of itself is a matter of consistency.

 

Gremlins are meant to be a pair though. and considering how slow a single one is and that they do relatively low Damage - that makes sense. a single would be completely useless. the force multiplication from having two makes that Weapon design actually usable. the Description of them even states they are designed to be used as a pair.

What we learn from the gremlins text saying "built as a pair" is that we can get around certain aspects of consistency simply by writing some sort of reasoning into the description.

 

exceptions to logic and physics? holding two of the same gun doesn't suddenly make it better than holding one of them. there are no exceptions to that.

holding two guns means you can throw more lead downrange. and the obvious downsides to that is Accuracy and Reloading. those are basically the only 'stat tweaks' a Dual version of a Single Weapon needs or should have. is that 'drab' or 'boring'? yes, it is. but that's the nature of Dual Weapons. they are still the same Weapon, just more of them.

Indeed under normal circumstances holding two of the same weapon does not make them stronger.

However, in a science fiction setting we have a lot of precedent for things not working under normal circumstances.

Does the magnus handgun even work based on the same physics we expect in a firearm?

 

Flavor text saying something to the effect of "When a magnus is used in concert with another in close proximity the propulsion of each round is amplified by the merging of energies between the two weapons"

Now that's no example of great writing...lol...it's just an illustration to my point that with some fancy sci fi-esque" wording we would have no real grounds to argue with whatever they say.

To be honest that wouldn't even be the weirdest line of reasoning in the game.

 

while money being tied to Warframe certainly changes peoples' reactions - the public game we have here, is the test server. there is no private bottled up testing environment with 20 salaried testers. all 5 million of us are the test server.

It's a tricky situation for certain.

 

for a simplistic resolution (far from an ideal one but a simple one) is to hold back on spending money right off the bat due to the fact that this is infact a 'test server'.

That's what I do.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Look, I'm not trying to drag this conversation all up an down the street into every possible contingency.

If we happen to feel differently on how they should/should have handled the AkMagnus that's no big deal.

All I'm really saying is they need to watch out for this kind of thing because money is involved, sometimes the solution isn't just to nerf it, and "logic consistently" in a sci fi setting is often a matter of explanation.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ronyn

[NikolaiLev]

DE hateing balance? look at update 12, their making all melee weapons as viable as Soma's and Penta's up later on in higher end missions, and we just came out of damage 2.0 which was to make all weapons viabale, to say they aren't fixing anything is an understatement.

 

Damage 2.0 was not to make all weapons viable.  It did nothing to help the Galatine, Soma and Ogris being top-tier weapons.  They even released the Penta, a more accessible super ammo efficient AoE weapon.  And there's nothing to guarantee that melee 2.0 won't just sloppily blanket buff all weapons, keeping the Galatine, Dakra and Orthos Prime at the top.

 

Actually, damage 2.0 made balance even worse in some instances.  The Mk-1 Braton and Lato were both left behind, leaving new players even more estranged, and even the Braton and Strun were made weaker with less damage and poor status %.

 

They aren't fixing anything balance related.

 

well then, what about AkLex? q.q

 

it's still a direct upgrade over the single. the Accuracy loss doesn't matter since it's a Sniping type Weapon you don't spam it anyways, yet Crits and Status Effects are still higher on the Duals than Single. logically, that makes zero sense. holding two guns doesn't make them better.

 

Game Balance (and logic consistency) is more important than being 'nice guy joe'.

 

Pretty much.  The Akmagnus was a goof, but it's not one I'm surprised at.  It's just the sort of thing DE would pull going by their trends.  Aklex was a disappointment, making the Lex far less unique of a weapon, not to mention screwing over those that invested in it.

Edited January 30, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[BadAimbot]

Nerfing after some folks rushed to grab it is uncool.

I came this close to spending plat on it.

 

If they rushed it because the weapon was overpowered, I have no sympathy for them.

 

If DE would change their mind about weapon balance, I would support that 100%. But right now weapon (and Warframe) strength is arbitrary. It needs fixing.

[Ronyn]

If they rushed it because the weapon was overpowered, I have no sympathy for them.

I don't believe it was the strongest secondary in the game.

So was it really OP or was it just way stronger then they ended up feeling it should be?

 

If DE would change their mind about weapon balance, I would support that 100%. But right now weapon (and Warframe) strength is arbitrary. It needs fixing.

Balance certainly needs some work overall.

[Shinobi-kun]

By balance, I sure do hope they don't nerf the better weapons down to scale with the *rather* obsolete ones. 

The Akmagnus's quite pricey compared to the older weapons though. 

[Deidaku]

what about thr BO? it's usless...why not remive it altogether? 

[Xana_Skullsunder]

DE, I like you guys. Really. You've done stuff I disagree with, but you try. Now I wish you'd apply that same effort to balance.

 

I know some frames and weapons will always be the most used. Sure. Even with near identical stats, that would happen. But the weapons in this game are wildly out of sync with each other. Weapons like the Bo (and Amphis) compared to the Magistar, for example. Not even the tier excuse works, because you couldn't get out of Mercury with some of these weapons. That's just sad.

 

Please try and make some of your old weapons actually worth using, /before/ you go and build a shiny new one to tempt us to spend money on. That's all I ask.

[NikolaiLev]

DE, I like you guys. Really. You've done stuff I disagree with, but you try. Now I wish you'd apply that same effort to balance.

 

I know some frames and weapons will always be the most used. Sure. Even with near identical stats, that would happen. But the weapons in this game are wildly out of sync with each other. Weapons like the Bo (and Amphis) compared to the Magistar, for example. Not even the tier excuse works, because you couldn't get out of Mercury with some of these weapons. That's just sad.

 

Please try and make some of your old weapons actually worth using, /before/ you go and build a shiny new one to tempt us to spend money on. That's all I ask.

 

Hear, hear!

[ThePresident777]

Balance design is a crucial part to any competent game, PvP or not.  Balance makes sure all options in the game remain options, and that there is no lack of viability when making alternate choices.  This ensures that variety remains in the game; new content can be tried to keep things fresh.  The entire game improves.

 

However, DE seems to be waging an eternal war against balance, making their own game stale with constant pressure to "upgrade," encouraging power creep and leaving older weapons in the dust.

 

The most common argument against balance is "This is a progression-based game; weapons are balanced by their mastery rank and difficulty of crafting."  However, this argument is flawed; most research weapons are extremely difficult to acquire, and yet fall by the wayside in terms of power.  Meanwhile, weapons like the Galatine require a mere rank 3 to craft, and serves as one of the best melee weapons in the game.

 

The most recent (and possibly one of the most egregious examples of this) is the Akmagnus.  Not only was its creation superfluous (not every weapon must have a dual version), it serves to propagate the notion that dual sidearms are always superior to single version ones.  While they could easily be balanced against each other, providing a choice between single pistols and dual pistols, DE has chosen to make the latter a superior option in almost every situation.  Afuris is the closest they've come to making a weapon where the single and dual versions are both valid choices (though the superior dps of the latter generally wins out anyway).

 

The Akmagnus comes with the usual benefits of dual weapons; increased magazine capacity, increased fire rate, with the usual mitigated downsides; it has less than twice the reload speed, more than half the accuracy, and uniquely has less crit.  But these downsides aren't enough to justify using the single version.  And if that wasn't bad enough, the Akmagnus deals twice the damage each.

 

So I ask: Why does DE hate balancing their own game?  Why do they hate variety, allowing players to freely choose between their mass of myriad yet &*$$genized weapons?  Why do they keep instating arbitrary superiorities despite the fact their game would benefit wildly from allowing each weapon to fill its own unique role?

 

The only answer I can come up with, besides laziness and incompetence (which is staggering for a 170 employee, 21 year old game development company), is greed.  This trend is profitable; releasing a single version (the Magnus), allowing players ample time to invest in their weapon with formas and potatoes, or just flat out buying it/rushing it with platinum, and then releasing a flat-out superior version that strongly encourages they abandon their prior investment to acquire the new version that's just better, is extremely profitable.

 

But it abuses player goodwill.  It sends the message that DE cares more about profit than their players.  This has been going on for a long time; despite promises of reduced grind DE is now introducing yet another resource to increase the amount of grinding done in the game, gussied up as a shiny new event.

 

I want it to stop, community.  Do you?

 

 

You've made many claims but I see no proof that they are true.  The foundation of your statement is taken for granted.  No definitions are given.  The parts are not connected.  You have not made a case.  All I see here are articles of faith.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ThePresident777

[NikolaiLev]

You've made many claims but I see no proof that they are true.  The foundation of your statement is taken for granted.  No definitions are given.  The parts are not connected.  You have not made a case.  All I see here are articles of faith.

 

If you don't want to believe weapons like the Soma and the Galatine are overpowered, then there's just no convincing you.

[Ahcruna]

Its a mistake, I take all blame. 2x multiplier got left in the data.

 

*gets ready to be burned at the stake*

That's good and all, but can I get a re-found on my single Magnus, materials and the platinum I used to rush build an extra Magnus + the Ak version? yes? no? I guess that's a no. Alrighty then.

 

Stuff like this needs to be tested a bit better before release, especially since people have the option to use real money for them.

You do realize you got the whole Design Council to help you out with that right?

 

At least remove this video from the main site and the announcement thread

https://warframe.com/news/tenno-reinforcements-akmagnus

 

Or, you know, you could have just slapped on a high Mastery rank requirement for it...

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ahcruna

[EganMC]

Funny, this thread mentions guns that are apparently obsolete and useless, and yet I prefer that.

If you're playing this game just to get the best everything, constantly wield the same gun and the same frame, you're playing it wrong.

I hope you can see that "balance" in a game like warframe would force even less variety.

If every gun were to do the same damage, have the same fire rate or something else that compensates for what it lacks, each gun would have to do that in a very unique way.

To do that for more than 120 weapons is very difficult.

The concept of balance is a very hard thing to achieve in game design without accidentally making some guns the same and therefore stale.

The differing powers in guns and in the methods they fire adds more variety than making all guns kill enemies at the same rate depending on your skill with it.

I still like to challenge myself by running around with an old weapon that is seriously outclassed today. Why? Because it's fun.

And when it comes down to it, that's all games should ever be.

[Bazools]

Just look at all those Clan Dojo Weapons... most of them are crap now! Where is the so called balance!?

[Anzuul]

So my question is, the people that bought the gun inb4 nerf are they getting a refund? I myself didn't buy it (thank god) but nerfing a gun by 50% of its DPS in a matter of hours after its release is a 100% viable reason to ask for a refund. 

[Satwo]

the over powered factor was an accident, and it was corrected after being noted.

if you ask me, thats some pretty damn fine dev work there. the double damage was most likely just overlooked.

as far as releasing multiple weapons with dual versions? why did they actually do it?

BECAUSE WE COMPLAINED UNTIL WE GOT IT!

we, the player base, asked many, many, MANY times to have more dual pistols. we begged them for it. they gave it to us. you now want to complain because they gave us the cookie when we asked for it?

i say, you can go stuff that cookie, good sir.

the bit about the extra resource? i love every aspect of it! a mob that drops it only if you kill it yourself, not to mention it doesnt matter what that planets mat drop is. that mob drops that resource, so its pretty easy to get ahold of, even if it was to be classified as a rare mat.

frankly, i disagree with every aspect of this complaint. people spending money to get all this built up? HA!

they put money down for laziness IMO. when Aklex came out, i gladly sacrificed my original lex, potato and all, because i wanted that awesome dual pistol look. i dont want my other arm just dangling there. further more, the majority require 2 of the original item in their recipes. how is it bad that they do more damage? its 2 of that weapon, the extra would just be sitting there, being useless since you already have one. now you have 2. it diserves to be more powerful.

you can get all those dual pistols (short of wraith vipers) by playing the game for the mats, as well as the potatoes to go with them. forma is more bountiful then ever thanks to ODD spitting out keys all the time, and at very little cost IMO. so i fail to see the problem really. we asked for dual pistols, we got dual pistols. they take twice the work, they should be between 1 and 2 times better then the single. you can upgrade it even without plat.

even if i had wanted the akmagnus, i wouldof crafted it. those that paid to rush it got their weapon. over powered or not, you got your rushed weapon. wouldnt be any different IMO if they nerfed the penta now, or the soma, or grakata. you got what you paid for.

[Satwo]

id also like to note, why wouldnt you want progression?

if the MK1-braton, lato, and skana were as powerful as everything else, you would just max them out and call it good.

sounds pretty boring to me. im all for progression.

[DoomFruit]

DE hateing balance? look at update 12, their making all melee weapons as viable as Soma's and Penta's up later on in higher end missions, and we just came out of damage 2.0 which was to make all weapons viabale, to say they aren't fixing anything is an understatement.

 

Except that an unmodded Mk1-Braton or Lato is now complete crap against Corpus and Grineer, as compared to the "underperforming, but still workable" in D1.0. See the many threads lamenting the new player experience. The Amphis used to ignore armour and send enemies flying on death, now it does neither - so it's not viable in combat and lacks the fun factor it used to have. In fact, that applies to melee in general - charge attacks no longer ignore armour (and even the extremely rare puncture weapons don't explicitly ignore it, they just have a damage increase which is then affected by armour), so you are either required to slot corrosive damage or just not bother against high level Grineer.

 

Damage 2.0 had nothing to do with making weapons viable. They could have done that purely by changing (or removing) armour scaling.

[Archistopheles]

id also like to note, why wouldnt you want progression?

if the MK1-braton, lato, and skana were as powerful as everything else, you would just max them out and call it good.

sounds pretty boring to me. im all for progression.

 

There was a time when even though we had guns like Hek and Gorgon floating around, the stats of the Braton still kept it competitive.

 

Nowadays? Not so much.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Funny, this thread mentions guns that are apparently obsolete and useless, and yet I prefer that.

If you're playing this game just to get the best everything, constantly wield the same gun and the same frame, you're playing it wrong.

I hope you can see that "balance" in a game like warframe would force even less variety.

If every gun were to do the same damage, have the same fire rate or something else that compensates for what it lacks, each gun would have to do that in a very unique way.

To do that for more than 120 weapons is very difficult.

The concept of balance is a very hard thing to achieve in game design without accidentally making some guns the same and therefore stale.

The differing powers in guns and in the methods they fire adds more variety than making all guns kill enemies at the same rate depending on your skill with it.

I still like to challenge myself by running around with an old weapon that is seriously outclassed today. Why? Because it's fun.

And when it comes down to it, that's all games should ever be.

 

Except we still have plenty of guns that are stale, even with DE's terrible, terrible balance. So the worst of both worlds. I appreciate your trying to paint a smiley face on the problem but it still exists. Some weapons are past the point of "challenging to use" and are downright painful to wield. I want DE to fix that.

[NikolaiLev]

id also like to note, why wouldnt you want progression?

if the MK1-braton, lato, and skana were as powerful as everything else, you would just max them out and call it good.

sounds pretty boring to me. im all for progression.

 

That's just not true.  Unless you're allergic to variety, and I certainly am not.

 

 

 

 

Changes

 

- Small improvements to AkMagnus: proc chance increased to 25%, crit chance increased to 25%, crit multiplier increased to 2.

 

 

There you have it.  The Akmagnus was actually close to having drawbacks, but not anymore.  It's flat out superior now.

[ThePresident777]

If you don't want to believe weapons like the Soma and the Galatine are overpowered, then there's just no convincing you.

 

I could say the same to you.  If you don't believe that weapons like Soma and Galatine are not overpowered, then there's just no convincing you.  Oh, look, we just had a discussion, NOT.

[NikolaiLev]

I could say the same to you.  If you don't believe that weapons like Soma and Galatine are not overpowered, then there's just no convincing you.  Oh, look, we just had a discussion, NOT.

 

DPS calculations clearly indicate the Soma has one of the best end-game DPSes in the game thanks to its scaling with crit, rate of fire, and excellent sustained DPS stats.  Meanwhile, Galatine has double the charge damage of its next-highest contender with faster swing speed, with greater range, at the cost of a mere .5s charge speed.  Numbers don't lie.

 

That's not balance.

Edited February 3, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[Monolake]

Some people forget that you need to balance THE ENTIRE GAME. Its not just one weapon vs another. Its weapon vs enemy, the price/effort required to get it, the relative progress.

 MK1 is a starter weapon that is balanced relative to lvl 1-3 enemies of the starter planet (completely unmoded), then you earn 25k (you have easily 30k+ by the end of Mercury) and get a better version - cheap Braton that can help you beat the next planet or even carry you all the way to the Outer Terminus if you potato it and install all the high rank mods, not need to forma. 

Thats why Soma is unbalanced/OP while Synapse or Burston Prime are fine and Supra is garbage. Soma is too easy and cheap to get and to max (2 Vs already) and its the best rifle with no flaws.  And then come Penta and Stug... 

[NikolaiLev]

Some people forget that you need to balance THE ENTIRE GAME. Its not just one weapon vs another. Its weapon vs enemy, the price/effort required to get it, the relative progress.

 MK1 is a starter weapon that is balanced relative to lvl 1-3 enemies of the starter planet (completely unmoded), then you earn 25k (you have easily 30k+ by the end of Mercury) and get a better version - cheap Braton that can help you beat the next planet or even carry you all the way to the Outer Terminus if you potato it and install all the high rank mods, not need to forma. 

Thats why Soma is unbalanced/OP while Synapse or Burston Prime are fine and Supra is garbage. Soma is too easy and cheap to get and to max (2 Vs already) and its the best rifle with no flaws.  And then come Penta and Stug... 

 

Except there's just no reason to just balance all the weapons against each other and make progression in the form of difficulty, enemy variety, and AI.  That'd result in a more interesting, varied game.

[ThePresident777]

Some people forget that you need to balance THE ENTIRE GAME. Its not just one weapon vs another. Its weapon vs enemy, the price/effort required to get it, the relative progress.

 MK1 is a starter weapon that is balanced relative to lvl 1-3 enemies of the starter planet (completely unmoded), then you earn 25k (you have easily 30k+ by the end of Mercury) and get a better version - cheap Braton that can help you beat the next planet or even carry you all the way to the Outer Terminus if you potato it and install all the high rank mods, not need to forma. 

Thats why Soma is unbalanced/OP while Synapse or Burston Prime are fine and Supra is garbage. Soma is too easy and cheap to get and to max (2 Vs already) and its the best rifle with no flaws.  And then come Penta and Stug... 

 

The problem there is that leveling MK-1 Braton to 30 as a new player is not syncronized with level 1-3 enemies.  You open up higher level locations before you get the gun to 30 AND have mods to put in it so you can have fun against higher level enemies.  And, if you force people to grind low level enemies to get the gun to level 30 before getting another gun then they get bored.  New players are stuck hitching a ride with whatever better equipped players happen to come along.