How In Hell Oxium Is Lighter Then Air? Is This Even Possible?

[bobafetthotmail]

Considering that this is thousands of years in the future, though, having a solid that's less dense than air really isn't that implausible.

Future isn't an out-of-jail card.

 

To be less dense than air it has to weight less than the same volume of air.

 

Chemical bonds and sub-atomic forces can't happen at the distance air molecules are at and all atoms that are lighter than air (helium and Hydrogen) can only form one bond or none at all, so there is no way it can hold itself together at all.

 

Yes, it's space magic, don't deny it.

 

The only thing I'm wondering is why this stuff does not fly up when it drops from drones. That's what "being lighter than air" does after all.

 

 

 

But if you put something lighter in water, say a piece of wood, it will float.  The weight of the volume it takes up is less than the weight of the water that volume has displaced.  The water succeeds in pushing it up.

Correct. Issue here is that water density is MUCH higher than air.

 

we are talking of something like three orders of magnitude of difference.

 

Water is at around 1000 kg per cubic meter (small differences for temperature)

Air is around 1.2 kg per cubic meter. (small differences for temperature)

 

There is a limit on how low-density something can be made with solid matter.

Edited January 30, 2014 by bobafetthotmail

[derclaw]

I know that by sheer THEORYCRAFTING its not impossible to have something lighter then air.

 

Question is - if thats an Alloy (which I guess should be solid) and its hard enough to be used in production of flying battle droids - imagine the awkward smelting process when molten S#&$ constantly trying to fly through the roof. So far even magic fairy dust seems like more possibel answer to WTF is this Oxium. If solid Oxium is lighter then air - imagine how virulent is its vapor or liqud form.

 

The whole smelting should be made in like complete vacuum with magnetic fields holding molten Oxium from dispersing. Because Oxium will lose its proprties if some hollow spaces inside it will be filled with atmosphere air.

 

God jesus those Corpus....

Edited January 30, 2014 by derclaw

[MagPrime]

Molten orbs of metal, lighter than air.  Make sure your nose is covered. : /

[derclaw]

Molten orbs of metal, lighter than air.  Make sure your nose is covered. : /

Corpus wear those huge things on heads for reason.

[[DE]Momaw]

This thing doesnt float in the air on its won lol. Also Lotus said that its alloy which means it should be something solid.

 

As for aerographen - IT DOESNT FLOAT IN THE AIR LOL - Wiki also says that. While it seems like Oxium does.

I am ok with ultra-light materials - but ALLOY that is lighter then AIR?

 (The cited density does not include the weight of the air incorporated in the structure: it does not float in air).

 

I think you're missing the fundamental beauty here...  The material's SOLID component is less dense than helium. It doesn't float in air because it has air in it. A dry sponge floats on water, a fully saturated sponge does not.  Making it float in air is just a matter of finding a manufacturing process that leaves it full of vacuum instead of air, then wrapping it in an impermeable membrane.

[derclaw]

I think you're missing the fundamental beauty here...  The material's SOLID component is less dense than helium. It doesn't float in air because it has air in it. A dry sponge floats on water, a fully saturated sponge does not.  Making it float in air is just a matter of finding a manufacturing process that leaves it full of vacuum instead of air, then wrapping it in an impermeable membrane.

 

As I said - full vacuum smelting process with magnetic fields so Oxium will actually become a solid thing without hollow parts inside after it cools down.

Thats some hardcore crafting skills.

 

Sweet jesus batman.... and we kill those people on daily basis and lore tells us that they pray on Orokin stuff without proper understanding of WTF they are doing.

.

Too bad that for it to actually work - they cant place it inside their osprey but will have to make the outer shell out of it (or even make most of their chasis out of it) and be limited to only atmospheric flight to get any use of "free levitation". So it also boils down to the question if its worth to producing battle droids with shells made of Oxium if forging Oxium should be freaking bloody hard.

Edited January 30, 2014 by derclaw

[NalkorRN]

Smelting this thing and using in crafting  must be a technological nightmare without some hardcore magnetic tools.

 

And since we now have "thing" can float on its own in the atmosphere - can we now have reduculusly huge airships as enemies in open tiles? 

Same logicfor why Stalker gets to be super-cheap and ignore abilities that make Warframe different from your generic Third Person Shooter. That logic is specially named 'because reasons'.

[derclaw]

Same logicfor why Stalker gets to be super-cheap and ignore abilities that make Warframe different from your generic Third Person Shooter. That logic is specially named 'because reasons'.

Stalker is super-cheap power-proof bullS#&$ just because its easier for DE to make him break the rules of the game, then to actually put some proper AI in his head so fighting him will be a chalenge instaed of hectic DPS fest of who will go down - Stalker under focused fire of 3 people or his target running wildly around screaming. 

 

Oxium is such because its sounding "alloy that is lighter then air"!

But hell its so much funny stuff that can be done with it in terms of gameplay - like the Oxium forge tileset where some rooms are initially vacuumed but you can break the window and let air in while also making molten Oxium to go flying all over the place killing Corpus and Tenno alike filling air with toxic vapor for short time before turning into stalagmites on the celing.

 

Or may be we can grab a big chunks of Oxium and go badonka all over the place with low gravity making huge leaps and floating in the air (to actually put freaking aviator mod to good use on anything outside Bird frame)

Edited January 30, 2014 by derclaw

[Ced23Ric]

I'm not really understanding the point of this thread. Are you under the impression that nothing can be lighter than air or something? 'Cause we've already manufactured solids that are less dense.

 

 

I was about to post this.

 

Also, this (the new winner):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerographene

 

About 7.5 times less dense than air, and less dense than helium.

 

Very acute observation.

 

Now tell me again how such a material is conducive to the wartime application inside a drone that has two programs: "hover & shoot", "charge forward & detonate on impact with object/wall/air/bad vibes/butterfly"

 

The problem here is not so much the existence of a material that is "lighter than air". With all those gases running around in "air", that thought alone is easy. Take helium or hydrogen, both lighter than "air", and have been used in the (ill-fated) Hindenburg and other aerial vessels for those exact properties. The problem is the use of words and their implications.

______

Alloy, the.

Noun.

Meaning: An alloy is a mixture or solid solution composed of a metal and another element.

Abstract: An alloy contains one or more of the three: a solid solution of the elements (a single phase); a mixture of metallic phases (two or more solutions); an intermetallic compound with no distinct boundary between the phases. Solid solution alloys give a single solid phase microstructure, while partial solutions exhibit two or more phases that may or may not be homogeneous in distribution, depending on the thermal (heat treatment) history of the material. An inter-metallic compound has one other alloy or pure metal embedded within another pure metal.

______

 

The application of that material is problematic, because it either has low density (metals tend to have high density, in fact, the element with the highest density are Osmium and Iridium, at 22.6x g/cm³ - both metals) which means that the spread of the existing metal is really wide, or it is a metal with a density lower than "air" - which is 0.001225 g/cm3.

 

The latter is impossible, so it has to be the former.

 

To achieve such a low density, the metal would lose a lot of its structural integrity, as the slow-moving, tightly orbitting subatomic parts of the metal and the "other element" would have to be stretched far so they retain a solid phase, but go below the density of air. This makes such an alloy ideal for hover/propulsion, but very weak to structual stress. As such, it is not very conducive to wartime applications, where any piece of hardware needs armouring to withstand punishment.

 

So we now have a material that is lighter than air - which would make it float above air, due to how gravitiy works. The heavier air would flow underneath the alloy, because it is exposed to higher gravitational pull than the Oxium, push the Oxium upwards in the process. Oxium would rise up when submerged in air.

 

That is the difference to aerogel and similar substances - they are light, but not lighter than air. They float downwards, slowly, but they do. They are still subject to gravitation at a higher level than air, which allows their use without specialised environments. Yet, the Oxium in question crosses this threshold, while still being applied in a military environment.

 

Now, even if such a material exist, and if it was used as a mitigation for weight (essentially, it produces a gravitational pull delta, which lends a measure of buoyancy) and/or to mitigate/insulate heat, the question remains why such a material is strapped to a drone that has "suicide" as a primary precept. It makes little to no sense, as the buoyancy can be achieved with jets/props/repulsors, and the insulation can be achieved with a thinner (but denser) layer of other materials. Glass ain't too bad, or ceramics.

 

So the bottom line is, truly, why does this substance have a role, why is it important, why was it used the way it was, and why does a military item looking for a medicum of structural integrity to protect itself go for a material that has poor structrual integrity, combined with a strategy for failure, as in, the suicide precept?

 

The implications and reasonings are simply not thought-out storytelling. There is a measure of what works in a SciFi environment and what doesn't. Of course realism is suspended in Warframe, has never been an item of discussion for real. Yet, even in a universe like Warframe, there needs to be cohesion and meaning. Oxium defies the rules of that universe, which makes it stand out as sore thumb. Regardless if Oxium defies rules of reality, it also defies the rules of the universe using it (now).

 

And that is part of the narrative, where oddities are established as rules, from which point onward they can be accepted and integrated. But this has not happened here.

[Ritchel]

games doesnt need explanations n shyt, games are just meant to be played.

[NalkorRN]

Stalker is super-cheap power-proof bullS#&$ just because its easier for DE to make him break the rules of the game, then to actually put some proper AI in his head so fighting him will be a chalenge instaed of hectic DPS fest of who will go down - Stalker under focused fire of 3 people or his target running wildly around screaming. 

I'm quite aware of this, I was trying to make a light-hearted joke that wouldn't send me into a rabid frenzy like most posts about the Stalker tend to be when I get involved.

[bobafetthotmail]

As I said - full vacuum smelting process with magnetic fields so Oxium will actually become a solid thing without hollow parts inside after it cools down.

Thats some hardcore crafting skills.

 

Vacuum is kinda common and cheap in space.

 

And if you want something to contain vacuum, you want it to have hollow points in it.

 

There is no way in hell that it will be able to hold the atmospheric pressure out of its vacuum pockets anyway, nor a way to control buoyancy, but hey, magic.

[Ced23Ric]

games doesnt need explanations n shyt, games are just meant to be played.

 

Games are subject to the same scrutiny as other media, Ritchel. Suspension of disbelief has a certain threshold for everyone being subjected to such media, and while some people do not care to think about what they are mentally consuming, others are. Griping stories and plotlines are established by rules of their scenarios that are obeyed, which is called "consequential". If the rule is that humans are wizards, then they are wizards. If those wizards get their power from sacrificing blood, than that is their fuel. If then a character is introduced that has unlimited magic without a price to pay, he is breaking the rules of the scenario, and interrupted the "in-scenario" logic.

 

Oxium is the wizard without payment, and there is no explanation.

 

PS: Good games tell a story with you as the protagonist. If you don't have the demand for good story telling, I am sure you understand that your lack of demand does not apply to everyone. If you don't want to be immersed because you just shoot at things, you will have a hard time finding any major successful game since the beginning of PC gaming that would deliver.

Because all major successfull games had stories. All of them.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ced23Ric

[Blatantfool]

 If they just changed it to 'almost lighter than air' would it make enough sense? Reading Ced's post was good for getting me clued in. I don't know much about metals.

[[DE]Momaw]

 

As I said - full vacuum smelting process with magnetic fields so Oxium will actually become a solid thing without hollow parts inside after it cools down.
Thats some hardcore crafting skills.

 

Perhaps an open-to-space centrifuge, with the molten material deposited as a vapor to the interior surface and perturbated by high frequency EM fields around the nozzle to create the structure as it hardens, then sliced into sheets, shaped by stock removal, and laminated into final form.

 

Of course, the real question here is.... WTF are they using the oxium for. It's probably fairly delicate compared to "monolithic" materials so it wouldn't make good combat armor. The low density means you could apply enormous thickness to your drone and start to get some benefit from sheer ablation, but then the size of the drone would suffer enormously (which doesn't seem to be the case).  Perhaps they are only using the oxium as EM shielding while they rely on the shields to block particle threats?

[NalkorRN]

games doesnt need explanations n shyt, games are just meant to be played.

Oh my god you are everything wrong with gaming these days. I bet people like you would suffer a @(*()$ stroke if you had to play a game like Daggerfall, Morrowind, Steel Battalion, Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1-2, Arcanum, VtM: Bloodlines (the first game to utilize the Source Engine by the way) or even Earthbound.

[Celseus]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170071-oxium-related-to-new-warframe/

 

This alloy might be lighter than air not due to weight.

 

However, gravitons are a subject in quantum physics whereby gravity is a phenomenon experienced by us due to the exertion of these particles.

 

The alloy might simply redirect gravitons in the opposite direction to which usually their influence is normally applied, so instead of falling downwards the alloy falls upwards.

 

Like how semi-conductors redirect the flow of electrons rather than denying/allowing them, this alloy can simply be a material that innately reconducts gravitons.

[Earthworm_Jim]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170071-oxium-related-to-new-warframe/

 

This alloy might be lighter than air not due to weight.

 

However, gravitons are a subject in quantum physics whereby gravity is a phenomenon experienced by us due to the exertion of these particles.

 

The alloy might simply redirect gravitons in the opposite direction to which usually their influence is normally applied, so instead of falling downwards the alloy falls upwards.

 

Like how semi-conductors redirect the flow of electrons rather than denying/allowing them, this alloy can simply be a material that innately reconducts gravitons.

 

If this were true, the molecular/atomic/subatomic bonds of the individual atoms composing the alloy would have to be stronger than the force of gravity the alloy is 'redirecting' or else the alloy would shear itself apart into its component particles.

 

There is basically no way to justify that other than very strong magnetism or Space Magic.

[Ced23Ric]

 If they just changed it to 'almost lighter than air' would it make enough sense? Reading Ced's post was good for getting me clued in. I don't know much about metals.

 

If they changed it to "ultralight-weight, but durable", it would make sense. Reducing the weight of armourplating is a constant concern in military applications. Many universes have such variants of their armour - take BattleTech, where Ferro-Fibrous (literally, iron fibres) armour is more bulky, but offers the same protection at reduced weight (or more protection at same weight) because it provides more structural integrity at a lower density.

 

"almost lighter than air" is synonym to "almost as light as air". Why use the exaggerated, misleading version of the truthful description? And even then - a material of those properties, such as the above mentioned aerogels, shattered under physical stress. It's like having an armour made from a thin sheat of ice while fighting against someone with a shotgun - an oxymoron of sensical military material application.

[Blatantfool]

If they changed it to "ultralight-weight, but durable", it would make sense. Reducing the weight of armourplating is a constant concern in military applications. Many universes have such variants of their armour - take BattleTech, where Ferro-Fibrous (literally, iron fibres) armour is more bulky, but offers the same protection at reduced weight (or more protection at same weight) because it provides more structural integrity at a lower density.

 

"almost lighter than air" is synonym to "almost as light as air". Why use the exaggerated, misleading version of the truthful description? And even then - a material of those properties, such as the above mentioned aerogels, shattered under physical stress. It's like having an armour made from a thin sheat of ice while fighting against someone with a shotgun - an oxymoron of sensical military material application.

 

 Alright. That makes sense. 

 

 Oxium is really just seeming some deus ex stuff to create a reason birdframe can happen now but couldn't earlier.

[Celseus]

If this were true, the molecular/atomic/subatomic bonds of the individual atoms composing the alloy would have to be stronger than the force of gravity the alloy is 'redirecting' or else the alloy would shear itself apart into its component particles.

 

There is basically no way to justify that other than very strong magnetism or Space Magic.

 

-_- Note that: All things that aren't shearing themselves at this moment in time, HAVE molecular "bonds" (There are several more subcategories you have to go through, than simply calling them 'bonds') that are stronger than gravity already. The fact that rockets aren't disintegrating into thin air just by leaving the atmosphere is proof enough.

 

So what you're saying is, in simple terms, "This metal better be made of matter or it's not going to exist! And that is why it cannot be metal!" Which doesn't make a darn bit of sense.

 

Thus, despite your attempt to confuse the readers. My justification still stands VERY FIRMLY. An alloy can be lighter than air if it has the properties to redirect gravitons in a opposite direction.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Celseus

[Sanev_Khan]

 Oxium is really just seeming some deus ex stuff to create a reason birdframe can happen now but couldn't earlier.

So, if Lotus can make entirely new frames and frame powers.

Why can't I customize my frames' powers ? Why do I have to use thousands years old designs ? Some of which being clearly completely useless in fighting against the current enemies, I'll add. 

 

 

[Earthworm_Jim]

-_- All things that aren't shearing themselves at this moment in time, HAVE molecular "bonds" (There are several more subcategories you have to go through, than simply calling them 'bonds') that are stronger than gravity already.

 

So what you're saying is, in simple terms, "This metal better be made of matter or it's not going to exist!" Which doesn't make sense.

 

Either you're trying to act smart by attempting to undermine my justification with your falsification of published science, or you simply don't understand me.

 

Also, gravitons theoretically ACT on matter. They are not what matter is composed of. They are a third influence, in case you misunderstand. Think electromagnestism. On a sidenote, matter is not held together by the individual gravity of each atom If you were thinking that then ...well, don't. I understand why you made the mistake but don't continue with it, it's wrong.

 

Yes, and if this material were to 'redirect' gravitons, that would mean that the component particles would be capable of doing this. If you have a particle that is acted upon by a graviton that responds by shunting it off in a different direction, chances are that graviton will likely then hit another particle in the alloy. Now you have an alloy which has a constantly shifting internal force of gravity. You're going to tell me something like that can remain structural integrity? The only way this would work is if the alloy in question were one particle thick and would increasingly risk breaking itself apart the more it became parallel to the force of gravity.

 

EDIT: The only way a material like Oxium would work is if the Orokin/Corpus managed to manufacture a material that despite not possessing a Higgs field, still maintains enough of a nuclear force between its now massless subatomic particles to actually form atoms in the first place, likely through a different subatomic particle which in the real world doesn't exist. The Space Magic particle.

 

The whole debate over how something like Oxium could exist is a secondary issue overall, though. The real issue that makes no sense at all is why the Corpus are using this new found rare, undoubtedly valuable magic metal in robots whose primary role is self-destruction. This is like a Captain Planet villain who hijacks an oil taker to sink it and cause a big oil spill of the coast of Australia to damage the fragile ecosystem of the great barrier reef, instead of selling the oil in South America or China and making lots of money and not attracting the ire of five adolescents of questionable social adjustment with the power to command the elements and also summon a blue Superman knock-off.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Earthworm_Jim

[Celseus]

So, if Lotus can make entirely new frames and frame powers.

Why can't I customize my frames' powers ? Why do I have to use thousands years old designs ? Some of which being clearly completely useless in fighting against the current enemies, I'll add.

 

 

Why is the colour red, red? Why is air breathable? Why does a battery have a positive terminal and a negative terminal? Why can't we have electrons have a $ charge and a ! charge along with a + or - charge?

 

Furthermore, it's a game. Balance is an issue.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Tulzscha

[Celseus]

Yes, and if this material were to 'redirect' gravitons, that would mean that the component particles would be capable of doing this. If you have a particle that is acted upon by a graviton that responds by shunting it off in a different direction, chances are that graviton will likely then hit another particle in the alloy. Now you have an alloy which has a constantly shifting internal force of gravity. You're going to tell me something like that can remain structural integrity? The only way this would work is if the alloy in question were one particle thick and would increasingly risk breaking itself apart the more it became parallel to the force of gravity.

 

 

I think you misunderstand how matter stays together, you think matter stays together by each atom having it's own gravity pull which holds it close to other atoms. Which is why you keep insisting on your opinion. That's funny, and wrong.

 

Redirection of gravitons will have no effect on the elementary structural integrity of matter.

 

*Note, if gravity of each atom is why matter is the way it is, there should be no reason why you aren't a pile of scattered atoms at the center of  the earth's core right now. The earth's combined gravity > yours, that's for sure.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Celseus