The Eviscerators Megathread

[tmtke]

Again, the discussion moved from eviscerators and their bleed procs to the huge difference in difficulty new players facing on Earth vs. Venus/Mercury. Someone even started a new account to check it, and found that it is really annoying. Think about these: you have no high level gear, have no ranked mods (no serration, etc.), and have no credits/mats/blueprints to make some better equipment. I also tried it with lvl 30 loki (which is already better) with only abilities equipped, low tier weapons (mk-1 braton, viper, dual ether) also only modded with some common mods, and that experience was really annoying. The main problem were not the eviscerators, they are just the annoying ones, it was the overall difficulty. I am not a rusher. My aim was trained with q3a railgun. I do strategies, strafing around and so on. But if lancers are hitting me with bullets, and while finding cover a hellion knocks me down, the rest of the mob will tear me apart. Yes, I've finished the simple extermination mission, but lost 2 revives due to that I'm using high level gear most of the time and I wasn't aware enough. But new players can reach Earth fast, and they don't have half of the gear mentioned above.

[J-Pax]

There is a simple solution to the bleed problem, and it would make for a more tactical game play in terms of target recognition.

 

Make AI bleed procs ONLY happen if your shields are down.

 

Makes sense right? Can't cut flesh if there's a shield in front of it. See that Eviscerator? Best get to cover. Those sawblades will chew your shields out, but it'll give you time to either take him out or hastily get to cover.

 

 

 

Edit: Read someone saying they approved of the "heroic/nightmare" style 'heroic' enemies we face. I don't like these. I don't mind their functionality, I just dislike their MMO representation in this action based game. Feels too much like might and magick came and stuck it's finger in the game.

Edited February 14, 2014 by J-Pax

[ThePresident777]

There is a simple solution to the bleed problem, and it would make for a more tactical game play in terms of target recognition.

 

Make AI bleed procs ONLY happen if your shields are down.

 

Makes sense right? Can't cut flesh if there's a shield in front of it. See that Eviscerator? Best get to cover. Those sawblades will chew your shields out, but it'll give you time to either take him out or hastily get to cover.

 

 

 

Edit: Read someone saying they approved of the "heroic/nightmare" style 'heroic' enemies we face. I don't like these. I don't mind their functionality, I just dislike their MMO representation in this action based game. Feels too much like might and magick came and stuck it's finger in the game.

 

Agree on both points.

 

The enemy having Tenno abilities reduces the uniqeness and distinction of both.  It also attacks the suspension of disbelief required to play a 4 super soldiers vs. overwhelming odds game.  The Grineer should have more machines to make them more distinct and fun.  The upcoming Grineer super squads or whatever they are called also sound like less distinction between Grineer and Tenno.  I'm not opposed to small units of Grineer special forces or whatever we want to call them.  I'm not saying that the enemy should only take the form of a horde or boss.  I'm just saying to preserve the distinction between the Tenno and their enemies and maintain suspension of disbelief.  Be sensible.

Edited February 14, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Prios]

Except that if you read back in the thread, we've got the opposite problem... it's exceedingly difficult to convince new players to continue once they hit the brick wall that is Earth.

 

That's the people who give up and complain. I am insinuating that you aren't going to hear complaints from the ones who push through, or who find the challenge fun. However justified you are in fixing the squeaky wheel, take care to consider whether the other wheels might lose out.

 

I'll admit that frontier eviscerators could probably use a nerf, though. Seems like the easiest and less disruptive solution--just make Earth's particular flavor of flying death blade less deathy. Tone down the firing rate and/or ease up on the effect of the bleeding proc--maybe the forest environment rusts the blade and firing mechanism.

 

@Prios

It's good that you had that much room to maneuver without being against a wall, since Miter blades bounce.

And it's when you have 6-10 blades bouncing around a small room that things get hairy.

 

Small rooms are rare to nonexistent on Earth, so that's why. :P Also an unmodded braton prime kills the Earth eviscerators before they get that many shots off.

 

Elsewhere you might get hit a couple of times but if you're not on Earth, you're better equipped to cope. Plus, you really don't need 20 meters to maneuver. That was a very liberal estimate. When I was clipped at around 5 meters away, the very next shot thereafter missed.

 

And if they really are in an absurdly tiny room, well, don't fight them in that room. Go outside and run back and forth past the entrance with your gun held around head level.

 

I haven't been killed by an eviscerator in ages. Running sideways works. Have faith.

[Calayne]

I am going to repeat this again, for the sake of getting the point across:

 

 

 

YOU JINXED IT, BUDDY! LOL! I didn't meet the Ice Leader Eviscerator, though, but I met two Leaders in a row... Talk about S#&$ luck.

 

Here's what I ran with:

Proof of suckage: Revive 0|4

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, I got totally owned. I'm not gonna lie, I sucked pretty hard. Exterminate was okay. The enemies generally don't spawn out of nowhere, and you can predict where they're gonna come from, and how to attack. That was actually really, really easy. I got hit by an Eviscerator once, to try it out. Insta-bleed, on the first hit. 30 damage a tick, brought my 300 HP Excalibur to 119.

 

In this mode, the Elite Lancers are actually more dangerous: They deal about 30-40 damage per hit, I think, and go through shields pretty quick. They're somewhat accurate at range too, and take lots of cover. The eviscerators are impotent at range, and I took them down first very easily. I learned the hard way that you probably shouldn't compete DPS with an Elite Lancer, though. And that Helions should be looked out for, because them missiles track and knock down. I died.

 

The biggest problem came in the next mode, Sabotage. I brought a weak antitoxin, just to see if it's solo-able with little to no mods.

 

The beginning was fine, as the enemies generally performed just as in Exterminate mission did. The problems came after I inserted the antitoxin.

 

Grineer Helions, Eviscerators, Seekers and Elite Lancers just poured over from everywhere. This is the first encounter with a Leader: Elite Grineer Lancer Ice Leader. I went into its ice shield, tried to shoot it to death, but was out-gunned. I revived, and changed tactics. I slash dash it three times, and it finally dies. Eviscerators begin to close in, A Grineer Helion spams rocket, I get knocked down and one Eviscerator manages to get into spamming range (There is a sweet spot of about 5-10 meters when they begin spamming about five to six blades a second). I die. 

 

About now, I was getting pretty tired of their S#&$: Rolling mitigates damage but does not render you immune to knockdown from Blast, as I just found out. The bright side is, the damage reduction while rolling is actually pretty good! Unfortunately, I was still surrounded by Seekers and Elite Lancers. Fortunately, the Toxin injector is huge, and blocked most of the projectiles. I gun them down, and the timer finishes. By this time, I only have one revive left, so I run the Hell out of there. Slash Dash works wonders, and I manage to get a certain distance before bumping into another Eviscerator. He spams the blades, but I start rolling. I kill him, but some of the blades hit me mid-roll, and now I'm bleeding, and my 200+ HP from getting my &#! trashed by a Helion is now at 28.

 

Like a turtle, I let my shields grow back to 300 as I slowly crawl from corner to corner, killing eveything in the way.

 

Then.... THEN... Ice Leader Grineer Helion. Slash dash the bastard a few times, doesn't die. He spams rockets, I roll, but the blast knocks me down. Missile spam. Die. I spam slash dash again and he goes down, but by now, I have no revives left. I try to run to the extraction, just one map away. As I run past a rock, an Elite Lancer hiding behind a rock spams his Karak and I'm dead in a few seconds.

 

So. Mission Fail. 

 

I think I'm about average in terms of skill level, so this display kind of shows me that I need to "Get gud", but also that Earth is very unfriendly to solo-players. It's pretty challenging, I admit, and it's quite exciting. But bleed took out almost 200hp one proc, and most spell-casters never get that much without Vitality. Something is sincerely wrong with that. There is no way for you to dodge all the bullets AND the homing missiles, and those things knock you down quite often, and that isn't even considering the Leader classes yet. 

 

It seems pretty clear that DE either wants us to team up with people and just about destroy solo-ing chances for newbies, or Earth could use a little difficulty tweaking.

 

 

 

Now, I want you to think carefully about what you are using;

 

Prios, this is directed right at you: You are using things that beginners will never have. You are using a Braton Prime, which is 24 damage to Braton's 18 damage. That is about a 40% increase which, frankly, not all newbies will have because Serration is not given for free. While small, The Braton Prime also has a 10% status chance, while the Braton only has a 5%. 

 

And then you have the gall to say that you used your maxed-out Jat Kittag to take out Grineer just because shooting them is too slow?

 

Might I reiterate myself that newbies do not get that choice?

 

You come here and show boat, but you did not consider where this is, and who is being affected. This is not about you, and this is not about your primed gear, and I admit, maybe you are really just that good.

 

But not all the newbies will be like you. You can be an elitist, and be right: Yes, Eviscerators are challenging and need to be in this game. I concur. But this is far too early. This is throwing a baby to the lions and saying: "Hey, better start them early. They'll man right up after this."

 

They won't. They'll die. And in our case, new players will leave because of this frustration.

 

Start a new account if you don't trust yourself to be honourable enough to leave your ranked gear behind. You brought a monstrosity of a weapon, far more damaging than any newbies will have. I simply have to object, my friend. Leave it behind, use the recommended load out, and go do a Sabotage mission. In fact, make a run through Earth.

 

If you are as good as you say you are, this will be a cake walk, and you'll have made your point. Agreed?

 

Kiyryite, I would suggest you stop insulting the ability of your fellow Tenno. It is demeaning, rude and does your argument no good. You may take me up on the challenge as well, if you believe your skills will serve you better than ours did for us.

 

If you do take up the challenge, I'd like to repeat that the build is non-negotiable. No adding of other mods of any kind, not even utility, and keeping to the weapons recommended. In fact, I think I'm pretty generous with adding Serration there. Just to make it easy on the old-timers like us, yeah?

Edited February 14, 2014 by Calayne

[EnForest]

WHAT DIDI SAY!!!!!!!!!

Use vitality their proc doesn't last long enough to remove all you health with even a 75% to max vitality.

Did you even properly read my post?!?!?!?

and trust me if your armor is more than 15-30 the raw slash damage is a much bigger problem than the proc actually is, even with multiple eviscerators I'm the area, and if you were an light warframe (nyx, loki, nova, and etc) obviously you will die fast those that is why those type of warframes are so fast and remember to take cover when using and Non-tank warframe.

Am I surrounded by noobs? ---___--- ( please tell me I'm not)

 

Wild forum tough guy appears!

 

[KibaWesker]

I would be fine with the status effects bypassing shields if armor, steel fiber, or MODS that can be equipped can stop or reduce the chance. They would need to create new mods and give % resistances to proc damage or even reduced damage from procs but as it stands now i went in as frost on Phobos and I was hit ONCE by an eviscorator and the proc alone took my 1k health down to 200...thats rediculous. imagine if i got hit twice i would have LITERALLY bled out.

On that note; give sentinals the ability to "bandage" procs like bleed!

[taiiat]

But when you reach level 30 with maxed vitality and vigor your health will be 840 (or around that) and with the base armor of Valkyr and frost their blades should be doing relatively mediocre damage until endgame where they will do around medium to high damage

But if a Valkyr has maxed vitality and steel fibre they should be doing relatively NOTHING unless the damage tables have changed again.

And I've used my new zephyr on earth with my other new gear not maxed or even half levelled and I went in with a maxed vitality and I didn't have anyroblems with those eviscerators

wow, you're really missing something. 

 

"look with maxed gear i can do it so it's fine". and in response to people talking about players without maxed equipment, you say it's fine with it. 

 

use something else. don't equip Vitality, just use a frame with average stats, not the ones that have above average. hell, Loki is a choice too, you should experiment with Loki, as well as the many choices there are for frames with 100HP stats. 

 

also do run the match Solo so that you know you'll be the Host, no Ping to save you from some of the bullets. (seriously, it makes a considerable difference)

 

 

Back in my day we didn't even use cover, we didn't even use mice even, we just ran around and fought against gigantic dual-rocket-launcher-wielding cyberdemons using the keyboard and we liked it. You young people are all soft. Get me my prune juice.

so let's backtrack to Heretic, or HeXen, same universe. those A****** Disciples of D'Sparil that were the mainstay enemy people generally didn't like. they shot a wide spread of magic projectiles. they hurt. but it was fine, because the ranged projectiles in all of those older games, were also not particularly fast(the magic attacks from those Disciples were above average speed and damage). you could avoid them and not take too much damage against even a of those guys.

Iron Liches were probably the second most hated enemy(second only to Green Serpents, more specifically ones that D'Sparil himself is riding), because he took forever to take down. but well, his ranged attacks were still avoidable without significant issue, and if he did get you, it was probably the whirlwind which wasn't that bad. 

 

now, we compare that to Eviscerators, of the current 'filthy casual crowd who does not understand circle strafe'. the Sawblades travel quickly(very quickly compared to those 'super hardcore' games of old)deal DoT damage on most of the times you get hit, as well as having higher than average impact damage (which is fine). they also love those hallways and other smaller areas where they can shoot sawblades by the dozen that will often repeatedly hit you (contrary to crime movies, dodging those blades is like walking through a laser field, which is far from as easy as those movies make it out to be, and those lasers don't move!).

 

the enemy is unique, and that is great. but since other than the blinking and flying(and the DoT) he's pretty similar to those Disciples, there's certainly something he isn't following. his projectiles are numerous, generally decently well aimed, and also cause Bleeding very often. which in other words, at close and medium range, he's superior to his allies, in most every way. his Weapon has better effect on target than the others do, as it's just basically superior. a Grakata or Hind pricks you many times, but that's all it does. the sawblades, deal considerable Damage, have extra Damage after the hit, and are still rather numerous, more numerous than shots from that Hind(not the Grakata or Karak, but those are pinprick guns, the Hind does much more Damage per hit). 

 

it's almost like the Eviscerator is a complete upgrade over the Elite Lancer. those 3 main traits he has going for him, are 3 things he generally has over his allies.

 

but really, the times when Eviscerators are that major problem, is in that cramped room where in the course of less than two seconds, you've probably been hit many times and are now bleeding. bleeding a lot, that is.

 

but, on the contrast, Eviscerators are 'useless' at long range, so there's our advantage. and that's a good tradeoff! but at that close range he's probably a little too effective.

i swear those sawblades home in on the player when they bounce, it feels like it. 

 

 

 

actually, you know, what if those sawblades were only able to cause Bleeding before they bounce? still providing plenty of a threat, but without a dozen blades hitting you two dozen or more times, and most of them stacking Bleeding.

[Zedera]

I'm fine with the CONCEPT of Eviscerators: annoying harasser enemies with bouncing sawblade weapons that can proc bleed. This is all part of their style and all good and fine.

 

I see the problem as being one of raw NUMBERS.

- Eviscerators have more HEALTH and deal more DAMAGE than their rarity would normally imply. Heavy Gunners are easier to take on than Eviscerators due to lower damage output, and despite having more health, the fact that they're bigger targets negates this to some degree.

- Their weapons fire so much FASTER than player-owned versions of the same weapon, raising player expectations when getting the Miter that aren't always met. And despite the lower bleed chance, the NUMBER of blades bouncing around from ONE eviscerator is enough to give a decently high bleed chance. Now, this wouldn't be too bad of a problem it weren't for the fact that

- Eviscerator Bleed is TOO DAMN HIGH. The DAMAGE from each bleed tick is deadly high.

 

Eviscerators took a numbers hit before, but just need to take another cut to their NUMBERS somewhere to bring them back in line with other enemies.

[Kiyryite]

I would be fine with the status effects bypassing shields if armor, steel fiber, or MODS that can be equipped can stop or reduce the chance. They would need to create new mods and give % resistances fos to proc damage or even reduced damage from procs but as it stands now i went in as frost on Phobos and I was hit ONCE by an eviscorator and the proc alone took my 1k health down to 200...thats rediculous. imagine if i got hit twice i would have LITERALLY bled out.

On that note; give sentinals the ability to "bandage" procs like bleed!

(1) frost can't get 1K health or even 900 for that mattter (unless you had phyique).

(2) one hit did that? That's how I know you over exaggerating.

[Prios]

Calayne. The title of this thread is "eviscerators." And wherever else this thread has gone, people are still largely talking about eviscerators, about how awful they are, about how to pull their teeth. My expedition was not about Earth's general difficulty, was not about you, and was not about your challenge. It sure as heck wasn't about me, either. It was about eviscerators, which I feared (and still fear) are going to be hit with a massive, indiscriminate nerf-bat that turns them into another boring loot-stuffed meatbag who just happens to have a scary-looking weapon.

 

I occasionally used the Jat on non-eviscerators, when no eviscerators were around, because those enemies were not eviscerators. My point was to demonstrate, for myself nearly as much as for others, that eviscerators themselves are actually pretty tame--compared to the other enemies on Earth/Phobos/Invasions, at least--if you know how to cope with them. As soon as I heard or saw an eviscerator, the Jat was off limits, even against the eviscerator's allies. I would then frantically eliminate those allies first whenever possible, or just plain keep away from them, because they posed much more of a threat than the eviscerator did.

 

Of course, as I stated in the post I made immediately before yours, I said "frontier eviscerators probably could use a nerf" and suggested lowering the bleed damage and/or fire rate. (So much for my dedication to the LEAVE EVISCERATORS ALONE cause; I guess I'm throwing the frontier variety under the bus.) Getting one-shotted by something while you're trying to figure it out is unfun, though it sounds more like players need to be given more preparation for Earth in general, that it's all too much, too soon.

 

I should have bought and used a standard Braton (preferably an Mk1) instead of a prime, yes. But if you can run circles around an eviscerator indefinitely without being hit (or dash back and forth between large thingies of cover), it just means it takes slightly longer to kill them. Like I said before: one eviscerator or three eviscerators, it's just a matter of time. (Well, okay, unless you run out of stamina.)

 

Obviously, if they have friends with assault rifles in large numbers who are flanking you, that makes things uglier. But that isn't an eviscerator problem, it's an Earth problem. Earth introduces elite lancers and hellions and the eviscerators and throws in the old standbys of shotgunners and towering assault troopers wielding miniguns, all at once. It would be awfully nice to introduce these elements more gradually, allowing Tenno to digest them, or to allow new players routes from Venus into other planets to prepare better. Or something.

 

 

Finally. Your repeated accusations that I was somehow "showboating," or "bragging," or demonstrating that Earth itself was a "cakewalk," are absolutely mind boggling. At first I was very angry, but now I realize that you may as well have accused me of being a yellow plastic chair, for all the sense it makes, and I certainly can't be angry about something so silly.

 

I specifically stated that I died more than once from assault rifle fire and that I found my experience with non-eviscerator enemies very dangerous and frustrating despite my admitted advantages; I moaned that elite lancers inflicted bleed procs and that most Earth combat required very conservative and timid play. How could anybody possibly interpret this as showboating or bragging?

 

In fact, this was the reason I did not go in with a complete naked build: I've tried to do so before on Phobos, and it was tremendously aggravating having my hiney torn apart by snarling vicious lancers while desperately looking for a hapless eviscerator to strafe and stomp on vindictively. Maybe I could complete your challenge, but I suspect that I'd be solely tempted to retreat back to Venus and look for more mods instead, and/or whine about the lack of players (one of my greatest talents).

 

Perhaps I confused you when I said my experience was "opposite" that of others on the thread. I was referring to those fixated on the supposed intractable terribleness of eviscerators largely to the exclusion of other foes, not to those talking about experiences with Earth in general being difficult. By "opposite," I meant that for me the squads of mooks (the lancers) were frightening monsters waiting for you to drop your guard for just one moment, while by contrast the eviscerators were like pit bulls with dementia and poor eyesight--potentially dangerous, but only if you're extremely distracted.

[Kiyryite]

wow, you're really missing something. 

 

"look with maxed gear i can do it so it's fine". and in response to people talking about players without maxed equipment, you say it's fine with it. 

 

use something else. don't equip Vitality, just use a frame with average stats, not the ones that have above average. hell, Loki is a choice too, you should experiment with Loki, as well as the many choices there are for frames with 100HP stats. 

 

also do run the match Solo so that you know you'll be the Host, no Ping to save you from some of the bullets. (seriously, it makes a considerable difference).

You are aware that back at the older times at warframe things were actually harder, grineer commanders, scorches, napalms and bombards could appear on planets as low as mercury and also remember that enemies and level grant lots more loot and EXP than they did before.

Also if you just strafe and move sometimes in different directions then they miss practically every shot and I've tried using a new (around level 5) and non reactor'ed. Frame on earth (it was a zephyr and the other time it was an ash, I didn't do it on earth to test the eviscerator thing just to try the new tile set while I upgrade my new frames) alongside new weapons (but I kept my Paris prime incase stalker came, didn't use it thought) it wasn't that hard.

[Prios]

"'filthy casual crowd who does not understand circle strafe'"

 

Hey, hey, come on, I don't have anything against "filthy casuals," my jokes about "kids these days" aside. I'm just saying maybe the Good News needs to be spread a bit more somehow.

 

I even think [REDACTED]* is a real game and defend its value fiercely, that's how awesome my casual cred is. That's right. I'm so elitist, I'm elitist about not being elitist.

 

*actual name of game obscured because this post is off-topic enough without adding a massive derailment trigger into the mix.

[Thaumatos]

(1) frost can't get 1K health or even 900 for that mattter (unless you had phyique).

(2) one hit did that? That's how I know you over exaggerating.

1.  Maybe he had physique, you fact-checked yourself

 

2.  Sounds like the only eviscerators someone's gone up against have been under level 10.  You enjoying your babyframe?

[Prios]

actually, you know, what if those sawblades were only able to cause Bleeding before they bounce? still providing plenty of a threat, but without a dozen blades hitting you two dozen or more times, and most of them stacking Bleeding.

 

Derp, sorry for spam posting, but having thought about it actually I think this idea is a really incredibly good one on many levels. I would actually say that after each bounce, the blades ought to have lessened bleed and do much less damage. For one thing it makes total intuitive sense that the cutting edges would be dulled after they've bounced off a wall, and for another thing the experience of being destroyed by an unpredictable, crazily-rebounding projectile does definitely qualify as more pointlessly unfun than anything else about evis.

[Neutralred]

That's right. I'm so elitist, I'm elitist about not being elitist.

Picturing a beret, keffiyeh and heavy-framed glasses right now. Or maybe Spider Jerusalem, given the 'filthy casuals' talk. (since there's no tone in text, i'll point out that this is a little good-natured ribbing)

 

You forgot to mention that Earth also introduces Bombards and Napalms, albeit thankfully on different mapsets. And Seekers, though they don't seem to do a lot of damage on Earth. Poor scaling works for us for a change! And yes, the elite lancers really do seem to hurt quite a bit. The theory that makes most sense to me is because the ones on Earth use Karaks instead of Hinds; they (fortunately) have less chance of bleed procs, but the impact damage really chews shields up.

 

I mainly dislike Earth's Eviscerators because it only takes one lucky shot to end you, and the nature of their weapon is for those shots to come in fast, furious, and from unexpected angles. Also, while their Miters do a fair bit of base damage, the actual hit is nowhere near as dangerous as the proc. I don't see how a bleed that far outdamages the initial strike is justified.

 

If you're looking for small enclosed spaces to get murdered in, try the Defense mission. (whose name I can't remember - damn) For some reason the design blocks line-of-sight to the Grineer approaches, and features the pod in the middle of a small arena surrounded by even smaller rooms and cover from which the Grineer can snipe and inside which Miters are utterly, utterly lethal. Or go and hold the lowest capture point at Eurasia - it's close quarters with a hole in the middle of the room, and enemies love to flank from the directions of both Delta and Bravo at the same time. The standard jungle tileset also features pipes and narrow passes between areas where unlucky spawns can be a preoblem.

 

And you're absolutely right in that getting one-shot by something you're still working out isn't fun. It's frustrating, especially when as a new player one might not have any idea of which of the new and wonderful enemies actually caused one to drop dead from full health and reasonable shields.

[Prios]

You forgot to mention that Earth also introduces Bombards and Napalms, albeit thankfully on different mapsets. And Seekers, though they don't seem to do a lot of damage on Earth. Poor scaling works for us for a change! And yes, the elite lancers really do seem to hurt quite a bit. The theory that makes most sense to me is because the ones on Earth use Karaks instead of Hinds; they (fortunately) have less chance of bleed procs, but the impact damage really chews shields up.

 

Bombards too, eh?

 

You know what, yeah, this clip from Independence Day springs to mind.

[Calayne]

Calayne. The title of this thread is "eviscerators." And wherever else this thread has gone, people are still largely talking about eviscerators, about how awful they are, about how to pull their teeth. My expedition was not about Earth's general difficulty, was not about you, and was not about your challenge. It sure as heck wasn't about me, either. It was about eviscerators, which I feared (and still fear) are going to be hit with a massive, indiscriminate nerf-bat that turns them into another boring loot-stuffed meatbag who just happens to have a scary-looking weapon.

 

I occasionally used the Jat on non-eviscerators, when no eviscerators were around, because those enemies were not eviscerators. My point was to demonstrate, for myself nearly as much as for others, that eviscerators themselves are actually pretty tame--compared to the other enemies on Earth/Phobos/Invasions, at least--if you know how to cope with them. As soon as I heard or saw an eviscerator, the Jat was off limits, even against the eviscerator's allies. I would then frantically eliminate those allies first whenever possible, or just plain keep away from them, because they posed much more of a threat than the eviscerator did.

 

Of course, as I stated in the post I made immediately before yours, I said "frontier eviscerators probably could use a nerf" and suggested lowering the bleed damage and/or fire rate. (So much for my dedication to the LEAVE EVISCERATORS ALONE cause; I guess I'm throwing the frontier variety under the bus.) Getting one-shotted by something while you're trying to figure it out is unfun, though it sounds more like players need to be given more preparation for Earth in general, that it's all too much, too soon.

 

I should have bought and used a standard Braton (preferably an Mk1) instead of a prime, yes. But if you can run circles around an eviscerator indefinitely without being hit (or dash back and forth between large thingies of cover), it just means it takes slightly longer to kill them. Like I said before: one eviscerator or three eviscerators, it's just a matter of time. (Well, okay, unless you run out of stamina.)

 

Obviously, if they have friends with assault rifles in large numbers who are flanking you, that makes things uglier. But that isn't an eviscerator problem, it's an Earth problem. Earth introduces elite lancers and hellions and the eviscerators and throws in the old standbys of shotgunners and towering assault troopers wielding miniguns, all at once. It would be awfully nice to introduce these elements more gradually, allowing Tenno to digest them, or to allow new players routes from Venus into other planets to prepare better. Or something.

 

 

Finally. Your repeated accusations that I was somehow "showboating," or "bragging," or demonstrating that Earth itself was a "cakewalk," are absolutely mind boggling. At first I was very angry, but now I realize that you may as well have accused me of being a yellow plastic chair, for all the sense it makes, and I certainly can't be angry about something so silly.

 

I specifically stated that I died more than once from assault rifle fire and that I found my experience with non-eviscerator enemies very dangerous and frustrating despite my admitted advantages; I moaned that elite lancers inflicted bleed procs and that most Earth combat required very conservative and timid play. How could anybody possibly interpret this as showboating or bragging?

 

In fact, this was the reason I did not go in with a complete naked build: I've tried to do so before on Phobos, and it was tremendously aggravating having my hiney torn apart by snarling vicious lancers while desperately looking for a hapless eviscerator to strafe and stomp on vindictively. Maybe I could complete your challenge, but I suspect that I'd be solely tempted to retreat back to Venus and look for more mods instead, and/or whine about the lack of players (one of my greatest talents).

 

Perhaps I confused you when I said my experience was "opposite" that of others on the thread. I was referring to those fixated on the supposed intractable terribleness of eviscerators largely to the exclusion of other foes, not to those talking about experiences with Earth in general being difficult. By "opposite," I meant that for me the squads of mooks (the lancers) were frightening monsters waiting for you to drop your guard for just one moment, while by contrast the eviscerators were like pit bulls with dementia and poor eyesight--potentially dangerous, but only if you're extremely distracted.

 

The title of the thread is indeed "Eviscerators". But the point I was trying to uphold was that Eviscerators are indeed a problem where bleed procs are concerned, and the main problem with that is that the Earth maps are ridiculously hard, in addition to a unit that fires 4-5 rounds a second that ricochet around the room and have a high chance of bleeding right through your shield, assuming you aren't entirely decapitated by the initial damage.

 

But yes, I concur, perhaps I may have misconstrued your context and intentions. But still, the issue is present, and the reason why I went on such a long tirade is simply because I mistakenly assumed your jesting about "Kids and their circle-strafing" as making light of their predicament. I apologize for that, then. Their predicament, by the way, is still a massive issue at the moment, seeing that the very subject of our topic is there.

 

However, I'm glad you agree that the bleed proc is rather obscene as well as the damage, and should be drastically reduced each bounce. Not to mention, you also agree that Earth is ridiculously hard, and it's not just the Eviscerator, and on this, we are on the same page.

 

I think the first shots fired are not the ones that get me the most. They occasionally do, as fighting groups tend to make the job of avoiding shots much more complicated. However, without the proposed changes of reducing bleed damage, proc chance and damage overall per bounce, it is indeed a matter of time: Unfortunately, a matter of time before we are eventually hit by one of the many ricocheting blades and dying subsequently.

 

But to me, even if on the topic of Eviscerators alone, it seems that there is an issue with the core mechanic by itself that the Eviscerators only exacerbated and made pronounced. The reason we feel they're broken is because of the bleed proc, which is massively obscene. It's an abomination, and we've all agreed to it. However, on the other end of the spectrum, we have Lancers and whatnot that give us absolutely no threat. We mow them down with little concern, and that is that, all while bleeding at 2-3 damage a tick.That seems to suggest that perhaps the bleed mechanic is the one that has a problem. 

 

When the damage you receive is multiplied almost three-fold and made to deal it regularly over a period of time (while stacking), we have a serious case of positive feedback. An unstable state, and one which we would not like to be in. Therefore, despite Eviscerators being the titular character, "Bleed" is the real moral of the story: It needs to be reworked.

 

However, I do admit I've gone slightly off topic in that regard. My previous posts were all focused on the plight of the new-comers on Earth, and it was not solely the Eviscerator's fault that it is. My bad. But that does not make the problem any less legitimate. It is, in fact, part of the issue we have here. 

 

Perhaps you have some other input to help this situation? The suggestion regarding the reduced damage per bounce is a good starting point, though I believe for Earth, at least, it will prove quite insufficient to keep our newbies both challenged and alive.

 

Edit: LoL. "Welcome to Earth". 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Calayne

[Redlove108]

I still dont' see the problem with Evis. Sure they can nearly drop any noob who decides to run solo but maybe this is where people realize "Hey I either get the skill needed to get through this or I play with a group." There is no way 1-2 Evis can take out a group in those big open maps that Earth has. Like that other guy said, I believe the Hellions are the worst!

 

They move fast, fire those tracking missles you can't dodge. Hell I tried using a gaint boulder for cover and the Hellion missle's blast range was big enough to damage my shields from the other side! I don't know about you but if there is anything that should be nerfed it's the Hellions. Now mind you I used a Nyx for this and was I ever loving her speed. Yet those damn missles can track me where ever I go.  I actually started using mind control on them everytime one appeared which surprisingly has taunt me that Mind Control is useful because it can stop a heavy for me or my team whenever I choose. You can say that is a plus, but good lord I bet those Hellions have made many rage.

 

Now I will admit that Evis did end me a few times when I ran in there the first time with Nyx. It made me realize I'm rather squishy. I was too use to playing as Rhino prior. So I played smarter, started circle strafing. The moment I hear their saw blades firing I moved. It didn't matter where, so long as I moved and took him out fast.

 

At the moment I have a sorta love/hate relationship with bleed proc. Not because of Evis but because of other mobs getting their damn bleed procs on me. It seems like they got nothing else that lands only bleed procs and weaken. I never once noticed an impact proc on me. But regardless, the bleed procs is intriguing because it's changing how I play warframe. It's making me consider bringing heals and focus harder on key enemies.

 

In conclusion, I'd say it should stay as is. Yes new players are going to have a hell of a time but that'll just make them run with a group instead of solo it. Honestly, solo is more of a Vet thing than a newbie player. I play entirely different during solo than I do with a group. I have to use cover, time my abilities, let my shields recover. With a group? Ha.. I just run at everything and gun them down. My team mates got my back because even with randoms, they all want everything dead and will make sure of it.

[Neutralred]

Redlove108: guessing you missed the earlier posts from vets about how running missions with lowbies on Earth is a comedy of watching them fall over again and again? I don't blame you, this thread has become quite the behemoth. But rest assured, the problem exists in online play as well.

 

Wait a minute, doesn't group play adjust the number and rate of spawns? Might explain some of why folks trying the challenge aren't seeing many Evis.

 

On a tangential note, I absolutely love how Hellions can sometimes knock you out of cover through whatever you're covering behind. Woo.

[Twilight053]

+1, yes. I agree.

[ScorpDK]

A few possible ideas to make Eviscerators more balanced in all level ranges.

 

1 - No bleed effect should be applied if there's a shield between you and the projectile, simple as that. I agree that some other effects could still bypass the shield, such as blast, viral, toxic, gas, etc, because of obvious reasons (like blast being a shockwave that just blows you away...), but if nothing reaches your skin/armor, then why would you bleed?

 

2. the actual bleed damage should be based on the weapon that it is shot from, and be capped to a certain range of said damage (like, in low level zones, if the sawblade deals a 50 damage, the bleed probably should not exceed 100 damage) and not stack.

 

3. possibly add a mod called something like "Resilience", which reduces effectiveness of procs on the user by a set percentage; (like, 10-15% per rank, going up as high as 75%?) this means reducing the proc duration and damage/effect affecting the Tenno. You sacrifice a mod slot for the ability to, say, walk nearly unhindered through an enemy Frost Leader's snowglobe or only get staggered after taking several explosion rather than being swept off your feet by the first... Juggernaut style.

[XenosInfinity]

3. possibly add a mod called something like "Resilience", which reduces effectiveness of procs on the user by a set percentage; (like, 10-15% per rank, going up as high as 75%?) this means reducing the proc duration and damage/effect affecting the Tenno. You sacrifice a mod slot for the ability to, say, walk nearly unhindered through an enemy Frost Leader's snowglobe or only get staggered after taking several explosion rather than being swept off your feet by the first... Juggernaut style.

Whilst I still think Eviscerators tend to be too dangerous with backup compared to other standard enemies, I actually really like this idea. I'd use a mod like that. Being able to Juggernaut our way through enemy status effects might conflict a little with Iron Skin, but considering Rhino can have that up all the time without sacrificing a normal mod slot, I don't think it's much of a problem.

Maybe if it reduced our move speed or stamina a little so that we turned into a horrifying unstoppable monster rather than just rushing past everything with no fear of being slowed down.

[Neutralred]

The problem with tying a solution to a mod is that mod drops early-game are demonstrably poor, and lowbie frames - the ones most vulnerable to Evis bleeds - have limited mod slots to start with. I'd really rather that the mechanic was fixed, although a proc-protection mod for later-game would be nice as an addition.

[Linus914]

Wut?