Status Mods: Why Haven't They Been Increased Yet?

[NikolaiLev]

Melee Prowess.  Rifle aptitude.  Sure shot.  Mods that are dedicated to increasing status chance.  They've been around since damage 2.0 (a month or two) and were released in a state that made them utterly useless.  Providing usually an increase of 15% multiplicative status chance, these mods, on average, give about 1.5% status to a weapon (provided a base 10% status).

 

These mods would be useful if they gave ten times or so their current level of status percentage.  Shotgun savvy, at max rank, gives 30% which is slightly more useful.  But even still these mods are never worth using.

 

So why hasn't this been addressed?  Steel Charge has been (clumsily) fiddled around with, and yet what would be a very simple adjustment hasn't happened yet.

 

If Rifle Aptitude gave 150% status, it'd be worth using.  It wouldn't be overpowered, because procs compared to damage are questionable, but it would be useful.  I'm not saying Shotgun Savvy should give 300% (that should probably be toned down), but specific numbers aren't hard to tweak.

[Tsoe]

60% would be good , your going far to high with your 150%/300%

 

 

we have dedicated weapons for elemental proc,

 

so it make sense for the other one to be less proc efficient

 

but yeah 15% of 10% is kind of low

 

 

 

BEFORE daùage 2.0 we had like 100% proc chance on every weapons and that was a pure mess

Edited February 27, 2014 by Tsoe

[Namacyst]

If they would just work additively... lalala

[Llyssa]

This is on the "after melee 2.0" list. They're aware, they just want to have all of the basics in place before they start tweaking it.

[taiiat]

If Rifle Aptitude gave 150% status, it'd be worth using.  It wouldn't be overpowered, because procs compared to damage are questionable

there is a Damage bonus on a Status Effect hit. be careful there. 

 

besides, if a Braton can get 25% Status, that kind've... makes some other less universal Weapons far less useful since they would no longer have high Utility.

 

honestly, for Rifles, 75% sounds good. for pistols, i'd want it to be a bit lower.... but it needs to be higher than Pistol Pestilence for it to keep to it's definition of a Nightmare Mod. which means for balance Pistol Pestilence should probably go down to 40%, and Sure Shot to 50%. why? Triplex shot. we REALLY need to start working on the fact that Sidearms outclass Primaries in almost every aspect. they should be relatively equal. 

Melee Prowess should be like, 80%. due to how slowly they generally attack and the overall meh Status Chances Melee's have.

[SpilockT_T]

Soon (U13)

[WhisperByte]

DEvs currently don't care much about balance. I think/hope that DEvs will make effort to actually balance the game near the release. But for now just enjoy your collection-only mods or forget they even exist

[NikolaiLev]

60% would be good , your going far to high with your 150%/300%

 

 

we have dedicated weapons for elemental proc,

 

so it make sense for the other one to be less proc efficient

 

but yeah 15% of 10% is kind of low

 

 

 

BEFORE daùage 2.0 we had like 100% proc chance on every weapons and that was a pure mess

 

Consider that 150% would change a 10% into a 25%.  I don't see what the big deal is about that, for a mod that otherwise adds no damage and costs 9 drain.

 

If they would just work additively... lalala

 

This is an option.  It'd help out weapons that have pitiful status chance.

 

This is on the "after melee 2.0" list. They're aware, they just want to have all of the basics in place before they start tweaking it.

 

I don't see why they should wait.  This is not something that predicates upon melee 2.0 being implemented.

 

there is a Damage bonus on a Status Effect hit. be careful there. 

 

besides, if a Braton can get 25% Status, that kind've... makes some other less universal Weapons far less useful since they would no longer have high Utility.

 

honestly, for Rifles, 75% sounds good. for pistols, i'd want it to be a bit lower.... but it needs to be higher than Pistol Pestilence for it to keep to it's definition of a Nightmare Mod. which means for balance Pistol Pestilence should probably go down to 40%, and Sure Shot to 50%. why? Triplex shot. we REALLY need to start working on the fact that Sidearms outclass Primaries in almost every aspect. they should be relatively equal. 

Melee Prowess should be like, 80%. due to how slowly they generally attack and the overall meh Status Chances Melee's have.

 

Are you sure?  As far as I can tell, only certain procs do damage, like the fire proc and toxin proc.

 

And really, I don't see how a Braton having 25% status makes other weapons less useful.  Because this mod also applies to them, so they have even more utility.  It's also worth mentioning that the Braton is underpowered as it is.

 

DEvs currently don't care much about balance. I think/hope that DEvs will make effort to actually balance the game near the release. But for now just enjoy your collection-only mods or forget they even exist

 

Sadly, this is true.  Balance is only profitable in the long-term, and DE seems focused entirely on short-term profits rather than the long-term health of their game.

[taiiat]

Are you sure?  As far as I can tell, only certain procs do damage, like the fire proc and toxin proc.

 

And really, I don't see how a Braton having 25% status makes other weapons less useful.  Because this mod also applies to them, so they have even more utility.  It's also worth mentioning that the Braton is underpowered as it is.

 

some Status Effects have a Damage component, indeed. 

but getting a Status Effect of any kind appears to increase the Damage. most of the time.

 

well, the comparison there would make them comparitively less useful. less of a gap between the two. though, technically that's a good thing i guess.

[Phatose]

If they would just work additively... lalala

 

Additive bonus run into really large balance issues though.  A mod that gives +25% status chance additively is a tiny bonus for a low RoF weapon like Ogris or a sniper.  On something like the Afuris or Supra though?  It becomes a huge bonus. Becomes very difficult to account for in designing weapons, since every high RoF weapon becomes a potential proc machine, even if it had a proc rate of 0% to offset it's other strengths.

[NikolaiLev]

some Status Effects have a Damage component, indeed. 

but getting a Status Effect of any kind appears to increase the Damage. most of the time.

 

well, the comparison there would make them comparitively less useful. less of a gap between the two. though, technically that's a good thing i guess.

 

Status mods are less useful because they add such a little amount of damage.  They add utility, instead.  And since mods currently are expected to add nothing but huge amounts of damage, a status mod would need huge amounts of status % to be competitive.  Hence why it should be 150% or so at max rank.

 

Additive bonus run into really large balance issues though.  A mod that gives +25% status chance additively is a tiny bonus for a low RoF weapon like Ogris or a sniper.  On something like the Afuris or Supra though?  It becomes a huge bonus. Becomes very difficult to account for in designing weapons, since every high RoF weapon becomes a potential proc machine, even if it had a proc rate of 0% to offset it's other strengths.

 

It's true.  That's why they should simply be more effective, though still multiplicative.  A mod that gives 150% status would result in, say, a dual zoren only getting 5% status from 2%.

Edited March 2, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[taiiat]

Status mods are less useful because they add such a little amount of damage.  They add utility, instead.  And since mods currently are expected to add nothing but huge amounts of damage, a status mod would need huge amounts of status % to be competitive.  Hence why it should be 150% or so at max rank.

Status Effects are the most powerful thing in the game though... and are immune to Levels. such a drastic increase to Status Effects on the already 'best' Weapons, doesn't really help anything, only further breaks the disparity between Weapons that have a high Status Chance, and the low ones.

 

for Status Mods to go up that much, it'd need to be rolled out at the same time as tweaking all of the Status Chances on all of the Equipment in the game. without tweaking all of those at the same time it's just a bucket of trouble.

[Monolake]

I have a better question: why did they make Aviator? 

[NikolaiLev]

Status Effects are the most powerful thing in the game though... and are immune to Levels. such a drastic increase to Status Effects on the already 'best' Weapons, doesn't really help anything, only further breaks the disparity between Weapons that have a high Status Chance, and the low ones.

 

for Status Mods to go up that much, it'd need to be rolled out at the same time as tweaking all of the Status Chances on all of the Equipment in the game. without tweaking all of those at the same time it's just a bucket of trouble.

 

I disagree that status is the most powerful thing in the game.  That said, the best weapons need to be nerfed anyway, so that's not really a problem; it's just a matter of DE deciding balance is actually important.

 

Status percentages need tweaking already, but I don't feel flat out increasing status mods would be a big deal.  Right now they are never used by anyone with a sane mind.

[taiiat]

Right now they are never used by anyone with a sane mind.

they aren't, no. but... for say, Rifles - a 250% Status increase on LatronP or Lanka - would give them a like, 120% Status Chance. 

but... that would still pale in the general scope compared to say, idunno, Soma, where 250% would be 45-50%.

 

even a Braton, would be a bit over 50%.

 

this is just way too much. all Status Chances would need to be modified to accomodate such Mods to keep things from being... crazy.

[NalkorRN]

60% would be good , your going far to high with your 150%/300%

 

 

we have dedicated weapons for elemental proc,

 

so it make sense for the other one to be less proc efficient

 

but yeah 15% of 10% is kind of low

 

 

 

BEFORE daùage 2.0 we had like 100% proc chance on every weapons and that was a pure mess

60% is great, know why? I got all the +60% Status Chance/Poison damage mods from Cicero Crisis and not only do they give far more bang for their buck, they top out at a mere 6 points!

 

Oh how I pity people who don't have Malignant Force and the other versions.

[NikolaiLev]

they aren't, no. but... for say, Rifles - a 250% Status increase on LatronP or Lanka - would give them a like, 120% Status Chance. 

but... that would still pale in the general scope compared to say, idunno, Soma, where 250% would be 45-50%.

 

even a Braton, would be a bit over 50%.

 

this is just way too much. all Status Chances would need to be modified to accomodate such Mods to keep things from being... crazy.

 

I never said 250% status.  I'd say 100% would be reasonable.

 

Remember, this is a dedicated mod that gives no damage.  It pales in comparison to Cicero and Tethra mods.  It really should be potent.

[taiiat]

it pales in comparison to Cicero and Tethra mods.  It really should be potent.

balance includes all things that are available, not only some of them.

 

Tethra having another Nightmare Mod like this scares me.

 

because... if we'll have one for each Element, that means you could load up 4 of them on say, Soma, and get a 40-45% Status Chance. while other Weapons, persay, Lanka, will cap out at 100% long before. but other Weapons can still grow with more of those Mods.

 

and ofcourse the first argument will be 'sacrificing Damage for Status'. but Status Effects are more potent than 500% more Damage... as soon as you stop killing Enemies at the flick of a wrist. 

 

and if that happens, where's the unique anymore in Weapons? every Weapon ignites, electrocutes, poisons/gases, freezes, confuses, staggers, knocks down, cuts Armor/HP - many times per second. hell, if we're going to reach that point, why don't we just apply all of the Status Effects to their spawning stats, and just remove Status Effects completely? it would be the same thing.

 

so all Enemies should spawn without Armor, without Shields, without Health, on fire, electrocuted, poisoned, frozen, confused and stunlocked. 

 

Status Effects become no longer something used Tactically, just something run of the mill that's more Common than Nano Spores or Alloy Plate.

no longer Status Chance, just Status. interesting, since we moved away from Elementals constantly applying effects with every single shot. well, we're going to end up back there soon.

 

>.>

[NikolaiLev]

because... if we'll have one for each Element, that means you could load up 4 of them on say, Soma, and get a 40-45% Status Chance. while other Weapons, persay, Lanka, will cap out at 100% long before. but other Weapons can still grow with more of those Mods.

 

and ofcourse the first argument will be 'sacrificing Damage for Status'. but Status Effects are more potent than 500% more Damage... as soon as you stop killing Enemies at the flick of a wrist. 

 

 

I can't agree with that.  Could you give your explanation for why status effects are more potent than raw damage?

 

Utility is nice, but the strongest CC is death.

[NalkorRN]

balance includes all things that are available, not only some of them.

 

Tethra having another Nightmare Mod like this scares me.

 

because... if we'll have one for each Element, that means you could load up 4 of them on say, Soma, and get a 40-45% Status Chance. while other Weapons, persay, Lanka, will cap out at 100% long before. but other Weapons can still grow with more of those Mods.

 

and ofcourse the first argument will be 'sacrificing Damage for Status'. but Status Effects are more potent than 500% more Damage... as soon as you stop killing Enemies at the flick of a wrist. 

 

and if that happens, where's the unique anymore in Weapons? every Weapon ignites, electrocutes, poisons/gases, freezes, confuses, staggers, knocks down, cuts Armor/HP - many times per second. hell, if we're going to reach that point, why don't we just apply all of the Status Effects to their spawning stats, and just remove Status Effects completely? it would be the same thing.

 

so all Enemies should spawn without Armor, without Shields, without Health, on fire, electrocuted, poisoned, frozen, confused and stunlocked. 

 

Status Effects become no longer something used Tactically, just something run of the mill that's more Common than Nano Spores or Alloy Plate.

no longer Status Chance, just Status. interesting, since we moved away from Elementals constantly applying effects with every single shot. well, we're going to end up back there soon.

 

>.>

Hey, that reminds me of Damage 1.0 where everything was a proc and rainbow builds were the norm!

 

So uhhh, what was Damage 2.0 supposed to fix again? Oh right, the overuse of Rainbow builds. Good job there DE, you totally know what you're doing!

 

Where the hell is that PGI signature you see all over the MWO forums? Anyone who plays knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[taiiat]

Utility is nice, but the strongest CC is death.

if an Enemy has infinite Health - which enemies in Warframe have - eventually your Weapon will take a very long time to just outright face bullet them to death.

 

at that point, you need Utility effects to control the Enemies. if your Machine Gun no longer kills that Enemy with 1 or 5 or 10 or 30 bullets, you'd better hope shooting at them will do something else useful.

otherwise by the time you kill one Enemy, the rest of them will have killed you.

[NikolaiLev]

Hey, that reminds me of Damage 1.0 where everything was a proc and rainbow builds were the norm!

 

So uhhh, what was Damage 2.0 supposed to fix again? Oh right, the overuse of Rainbow builds. Good job there DE, you totally know what you're doing!

 

Where the hell is that PGI signature you see all over the MWO forums? Anyone who plays knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Yeeeah, Damage 2.0 didn't do anything to Rainbow builds.  They don't realize the actual source problem; the fact that you need to build for damage, and element mods give you tons of damage.

 

 

if an Enemy has infinite Health - which enemies in Warframe have - eventually your Weapon will take a very long time to just outright face bullet them to death.

 

at that point, you need Utility effects to control the Enemies. if your Machine Gun no longer kills that Enemy with 1 or 5 or 10 or 30 bullets, you'd better hope shooting at them will do something else useful.

otherwise by the time you kill one Enemy, the rest of them will have killed you.

 

Enemies in Warframe do not have infinite health.  They do in fact die.

[taiiat]

Enemies in Warframe do not have infinite health.  They do in fact die.

there is no cutoff for Enemies. they continue to grow statistically until the end of the universe. since there's no upper limit, trying to fight those numbers is a losing battle.

in a specific instance, then only X Damage is needed to overwhelm any use Utility gives you, but since our Damage has an upper limit, and their survivability does not...

 

it's simply the nature of the game. it's the same story in a million other PvE games. they almost all have infinitely scaling 'challenges', while the player ultimately has an upper limit at any given time. the best way to reliably stand your ground against this, would be things that aren't affected by that scaling. you can knock down an Enemy that has 1HP just the same as one that has 1,000,000HP. in order to survive against the one with more HP, you'll need more than just a certain amount of Damage, because it has an upper limit. 

[Inez]

there is no cutoff for Enemies. they continue to grow statistically until the end of the universe. since there's no upper limit, trying to fight those numbers is a losing battle.

in a specific instance, then only X Damage is needed to overwhelm any use Utility gives you, but since our Damage has an upper limit, and their survivability does not...

 

it's simply the nature of the game. it's the same story in a million other PvE games. they almost all have infinitely scaling 'challenges', while the player ultimately has an upper limit at any given time. the best way to reliably stand your ground against this, would be things that aren't affected by that scaling. you can knock down an Enemy that has 1HP just the same as one that has 1,000,000HP. in order to survive against the one with more HP, you'll need more than just a certain amount of Damage, because it has an upper limit.

No one fights level 1000 enemies. Not sure what the point to your argument is.

You're arguing about theoretical battles that no one actually does.

[taiiat]

You're arguing about theoretical battles that no one actually does.

it already starts to apply at lv50, starting to, and absolutely applies around lv100.