[Poll] Should Mods Have Less Influence On Damage Output?

[ToeSama]

Do damage mod's need to be removed? No.

 

Do damage mods need to be altered? Very possible.

 

Does the damage system itself need to be rewritten AGAIN? Hell yes.

 

At this point, Warframe keeps making mods that serve no purpose because of it's own combat system. The greatest status ailment is death, and making things deader trumps any other options available due to how mods and damage work together. If guns weren't such crap without damage mods, damage mods weren't so overpowered to the point of necessity, and non damage boosting mods weren't such flaming piles of garbage due to damage being kerfunkled, weapon combat might actually be FUN in Warframe, and less of a press button to win sort of thing.

 

I'd vote for another weapon and damage overhaul before straight up removing damage mods. If damage itself changes, damage mods may end up finding a better balance with a better damage system. Especially if their overall need to make weapons work against higher level enemies was mitigated.

Edited February 28, 2014 by ToeSama

[MeduSalem]

It is something to work towards when improving your weapons.

 

I used to think the same last year. But ever since DE decided to introduce Trading, the Legendary Core fiasco and a bunch of others I greatly noticed that they've shortcutted a huge part of the game for many people: To work towards completion at mods. Nowadays players just tend to buy a Legendary core or a maxed out Serration or whatever and skip the whole part of collecting Credits and Fusion cores which would have allowed them to do it themselves and feel satisfaction about it. Nowadays people get maxed out stuff and annihilate everything right from the very beginning and wonder why there's no challenge.

Edited February 28, 2014 by MeduSalem

[BlackVortex]

http://strawpoll.me/1229887

 

Just something I've wanted to ask out of curiosity, see what some of the community thinks.

Basically what you want, is for DE to start nerfing mods every time they release new stackable mods, because in some way or another it might be imbalanced.

The thing is, nothing is imbalanced in this game considering each weapon has it's own ups and downs.

If I want to rush I wouldn't use a penta/ogris/stug, because that would just slow me down and there are even differences in normal version and prime versions, making one version of the weapon more viable for a different faction than the prime version of the weapon.

 

Besides that, high wave defense or interception or survival still benefits a lot from the additional damage and basically all other content is do-able with just 20% of the total possible damage you can do with most weapons. So the insane weapon strength is mostly for those modes and for pvp.

 

Also I would like to point out that just having all those mods required on just half of the maximum rank would already boost your total damage with about 1000%

 

In this game leveling up your mods is very rewarding especially at the lower levels and I think it should stay that way.

Edited February 28, 2014 by BlackVortex

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Yepp, that's why I wrote "if at all". There's still a little difference in it than to how it's done now. Level-ups are fixed. If the weapon hits 30 then that's about it. The Base-damage doesn't increase anymore. It is predictable. Mods are not, because they are stackable and DE always seems to have a favor to push out another damage related mod which basically means there's no limit on scaling damage.

 

[edit]

 

... Only mod-slots being the limitation and if it weren't for that, people would put even more damage related mods on the weapons instead of ever thinking about utility. :S

I guess weapon growth does future-proof a bit better.

 

 

We actually had this debate before. I think it depends entirely on implementation. Volt had a more interesting idea, though, related to weapon usage and power growth. It's hard to explain here, but you should give it a read: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/181670-de-why-i-give-up-on-warframes-balance/

 

I personally am all for either approach: Volt's or a weapon growth system of some kind, if only to mitigate the gap between weapon damage, but modded and unmodded. 

 

The observation right now is that some weapon DPS can go up to 31,000% higher, while others remain at 1,000% or so, and that's a terrible place to be in. At least, if Serration is nerfed into the ground, Multishot consumes the ammo shot, and elementals convert damage instead of adding them, we'll be able to balance difficulty to an extent.

 

Volt's is a more comprehensive solution. Mine's a stop-gap band-aid if they cannot implement harder mechanisms, which I'd adore. 

If absolutely nothing else, crit builds need to get obliterated.  They scale far too uniquely to be balanced against the rest of the mod pool.

 

The greatest status ailment is death, and making things deader trumps any other options available due to how mods and damage work together. If guns weren't such crap without damage mods, damage mods weren't so overpowered to the point of necessity, and non damage boosting mods weren't such flaming piles of garbage due to damage being kerfunkled, weapon combat might actually be FUN in Warframe, and less of a press button to win sort of thing.

These are my two favorite adjacent sentences I've seen on this forum in a long time.

 

 

1. The thing is, nothing is imbalanced in this game considering each weapon has it's own ups and downs.

 

2. Besides that, high wave defense or interception or survival still benefits a lot from the additional damage and basically all other content is do-able with just 20% of the total possible damage you can do with most weapons. So the insane weapon strength is mostly for those modes and for pvp.

1. This is hilariously false.  Give me one downside to the Soma.  Give me one upside to the Spectra.  Are those extreme cases?  Of course, but this game isn't remotely close to balanced.

 

2. And those mods get used on all other content in the game because people will instagib what they can instagib.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[VegetableBasket]

The question should really be: Do you value the longevity of the game or do you want to avoid the feeling of being invalidated in the case your work might have been for nothing in the case DE doesn't give you a legendary core for your max serration?

[Annnoth]

That's mind of the point of mods. To increase the strength of a weapon... It's the weapons fault for being OP if what your referring to is the high damage output.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

That's kind of the point of mods. To increase the strength of a weapon... It's the weapons fault for being OP if what your referring to is the high damage output.

Not necessarily.  Take crit builds for instance.  They scale wildly differently than normal rainbow builds, making their damage not show until when those weapons are fully modded.

 

Also, surely you can admit that the difference in DPS between a new weapon and a maxed weapon is absurd and precludes skill playing any realistic role.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[luanle21]

Whole mod system needs a rework, it is clunky and boring. Half of the mods are useless, and other half is almost god mode.

 

 

DE could make talents instead mods, utility and damage.

[Annnoth]

Not necessarily. Take crit builds for instance. They scale wildly differently than normal rainbow builds, making their damage not show until when those weapons are fully modded.

Also, surely you can admit that the difference in DPS between a new weapon and a maxed weapon is absurd and precludes skill playing any realistic role.

Again, that's the fault of the new weapons.

If a weapon had 1 damage and you out split chamber and serration on it the gun would deal ~3 damage. If it has a 5% crit rate and you put point strike on it you would have ~12.5% crot rate. BUT if you have 500 damage and you out serration and split changer you would deal ~4000 damage and if a gun had 50% crit rate and you put point trike on it you would have 125% crit rate.

mods go by percent multiplication meaning the better the gun is the more effective a mod will be. Less powerful guns = less powerful bonuses from the mods.

Edited February 28, 2014 by theharddrinkingapplejack

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Again, that's the fault of the new weapons.

If a weapon had 1 damage and you out split chamber and serration on it the gun would deal ~3 damage. If it has a 5% crit rate and you put point strike on it you would have ~12.5% crot rate. BUT if you have 500 damage and you out serration and split changer you would deal ~4000 damage and if a gun had 50% crit rate and you put point trike on it you would have 125% crit rate.

mods go by percent multiplication meaning the better the gun is the more effective a mod will be. Less powerful guns = less powerful bonuses from the mods.

I agree that gaps widen as level increases.  That said, if weapon A is 5% better than weapon B at rank 0, A will still only be 5% better than weapon B at rank 30 unless they use different builds or have different mechanics.

[Annnoth]

I agree that gaps widen as level increases. That said, if weapon A is 5% better than weapon B at rank 0, A will still only be 5% better than weapon B at rank 30 unless they use different builds or have different mechanics.

That's the point. Progression in terms of damage and usability is based on mods, this is the reason why they got rid of leveling allows you to spend skill points on weapons to make them better in alpha. It's boring and shows a lack of freedom. With mods I can have so many different builds that are useful and interesting even if I still use the usual required mods. Leveling up just allows you to put more mods in and even adds a small management minigame in trying to fit as much into your gun as you can.

I think you're missing the whole point the mods exist.

Edited February 28, 2014 by theharddrinkingapplejack

[Calayne]

I agree that gaps widen as level increases.  That said, if weapon A is 5% better than weapon B at rank 0, A will still only be 5% better than weapon B at rank 30 unless they use different builds or have different mechanics.

 

Indeed, but the way it is now, that 5% is usually much higher, and that percentage difference is also obscenely large.

 

But first, here's an example of why our crit mechanism is bonked: The Soma and Karak are excellent examples for comparison. The Karak has higher damage, but Soma has high crit chance and rate. They're both about the same in terms of play style.

 

What happens is that both, even when fully optimized, deal very different scales of damage. The crit mechanism has to change. It should reward skilled gameplay, not bullet-hosing. Volt's idea of completely forgoing the current crit mechanism is well called for. 

 

In fact, the Karak has 300% higher damage in terms of pure phydical damage, if I recall correctly. Soma has 2x crit and 25% crit chance, meaning the Karak averages at 120 every 4 shots, and Soma averages at 50 damage every 4 shots. But as we all know, the Karak does not remain at 300% better compared to the Soma. In fact, many who wish to optimize pick the Soma over the Karak any day. Another completely doodoo scaling scenario.

 

So, that is the example for crits.

Against the 5% better of two damage-based weapons, it is true that they will be about 5% better than one another, but that number is usually much, much higher because of the way damage mods work. And that percentage that is much higher than 5% also causes the gap in damage to be amplified, no matter what weapon we use. A 15 damage weapon may be 50% higher than a 10 damage weapon, but when we multiply that with the typical 20 times damage increase, we have 300 - 200 = 100 damage difference. Okay, doesn't seem so bad at this stage. But as we go on, and the percentage increases, the gap grows larger and larger. Especially if resistances are taken into account. 

 

Applejack, the mods right now are not anywhere near customizing gameplay. They're simply adding numbers on top of numbers. This is not the point of mods, I believe. "Mods" in this sense implies that it modifies your gun with different functions, adding things to make it better, not turning your 9mm Glock into a tactical nuke rapid-firing from your hip. This is what it is now. There are no added features. Only added numbers. THIS is a lack of freedom. Because if you lose this arms race, you may as well not join high level gameplay at all.

[Annnoth]

Indeed, but the way it is now, that 5% is usually much higher, and that percentage difference is also obscenely large.

But first, here's an example of why our crit mechanism is bonked: The Soma and Karak are excellent examples for comparison. The Karak has higher damage, but Soma has high crit chance and rate. They're both about the same in terms of play style.

What happens is that both, even when fully optimized, deal very different scales of damage. The crit mechanism has to change. It should reward skilled gameplay, not bullet-hosing. Volt's idea of completely forgoing the current crit mechanism is well called for.

In fact, the Karak has 300% higher damage in terms of pure phydical damage, if I recall correctly. Soma has 2x crit and 25% crit chance, meaning the Karak averages at 120 every 4 shots, and Soma averages at 50 damage every 4 shots. But as we all know, the Karak does not remain at 300% better compared to the Soma. In fact, many who wish to optimize pick the Soma over the Karak any day. Another completely doodoo scaling scenario.

So, that is the example for crits.

Against the 5% better of two damage-based weapons, it is true that they will be about 5% better than one another, but that number is usually much, much higher because of the way damage mods work. And that percentage that is much higher than 5% also causes the gap in damage to be amplified, no matter what weapon we use. A 15 damage weapon may be 50% higher than a 10 damage weapon, but when we multiply that with the typical 20 times damage increase, we have 300 - 200 = 100 damage difference. Okay, doesn't seem so bad at this stage. But as we go on, and the percentage increases, the gap grows larger and larger. Especially if resistances are taken into account.

Applejack, the mods right now are not anywhere near customizing gameplay. They're simply adding numbers on top of numbers. This is not the point of mods, I believe. "Mods" in this sense implies that it modifies your gun with different functions, adding things to make it better, not turning your 9mm Glock into a tactical nuke rapid-firing from your hip. This is what it is now. There are no added features. Only added numbers. THIS is a lack of freedom. Because if you lose this arms race, you may as well not join high level gameplay at all.

I do have a decent but of freedom with modding. Sure, a lot of it is adding numbers but there are still some mods that you can mess around with. Like straight up fire rate and reload speed on the twin vipers, it's effective and awfully fun be it ammo consuming but that's why I use ammo mutator.

Or pure status on the grinlock so I can just keep proccing on enemies and seeing how badly I can weaken them.

Or just super magazine size with minigun type weapons for a blizzard of bullets

Or thunderbolt spam with bows

There is freedom, not as much as there should be but it's better than the stat system that was in the alpha. There's only no freedom if you are a DPS hog.

Edited February 28, 2014 by theharddrinkingapplejack

[Drakontis]

The difficulty with changing the modding system, in my opinion, is that if you change how damage works. If you make it flat, then you have no way of scaling damage. Damage that doesn't scale is fine when you're playing the story mode of a standard FPS game (or even just the multiplayer of most FPS games, really), but it really tends to have negative effects on a lot of RPG's. The "I want my numbers bigger" aspect of RPGs seems to revolve around the fact that sometimes you want people to roam around certain content for a while. You WANT them to build up their arsenal in area A before moving to area B and we have that here in Warframe. You want them to build up their damage output a little before moving onto the next planet. You want them to build up their resistance to enemy damage output as well before moving to the next planet. If there is little to no scaling between when you hit the dirt the first time and when you take out a boss like Raptor or do a T3 Defense Key, then you can just skip ALL of the content in between and basically go from beginning to endmode with nothing in between. And that's a problem. And in fact, it's a problem right now ANYWAYS because people can just buy a max ranked mod, and I think that's flawed and should be taken out. We should only be able to trade base mods and not ranked ones in my opinion (and it's all I look for when it comes to trading mods which I haven't been able to do yet anyways.) 

Let's take Borderlands 1/2 as an example for a moment. When you start out, you are at level 1, you get level 1 weaponry. You scale up to around level 30 by the time you get to the boss the first time. You do this through quests and the basic combat. In fact, there is very little need to actually grind in this game to accomplish your goal. Now imagine if your level 1 weapon was JUST as effective as your level 30 weapon. There is no need to do any of the quests, you could just go straight from the starting area, drive your way to the endgame area and smack the boss in the face and skip every single reference, joke, neat unique weapon and everything else on the way there and it would be boring. 

Why does this relate to Warframe? Because you have the same problem when you remove scaling. You can already skip content right now if you really want to. Out of the way missions are basically optional side-quests (Apollodorus on Mercury for example) but this doesn't have much of an effect. Most of the game is spent moving your way towards a boss, key, or a reward from them. If you remove scaling, you skip any need to move through the solar system due to how the map works. You can just skip every planet you don't want to touch and that is somewhat flawed in my opinion. While you may not want to force a player into a certain play-style or force them to experience the content in a certain way, well, sometimes you HAVE to enforce a play-style or force them to experience the content in a certain way, otherwise, why make the game?

 

Flat or near flat damage rates are perfect for games that have no actual need to level up. These types of games are usually platformers (Mario), exploratory (Minecraft certainly increases your damage, but you can still kill a mob with a wooden sword no matter where you go, it just tends to take longer), or have a lot less exploratory areas (A lot of FPS games have no scaling, from DOOM all the way to Shadow Warrior, most of your scaling tends to be skill or a larger variety of weaponry). These games either have no need for scaling (Minecraft) or have no way for you to skip the content (Most Mario games for example, and basically every FPS game's narrative). With Warframe, we CAN skip levels. But should we be able to? And what is the benefit of taking out the need to actually go through the star chart in the order given in order to rank up our "needed" mods.

 

As players on the forums, a lot of us are looking at the issues on hand from the viewpoint of somebody who has "Finished" the game. We have all the high end gear, we have the maxed out mods, we have the experience to handle most situations that come our way, whether it's finding an easy way to kill a boss (Loki switching Raptor was the best) or just traversing a map, we know what we're doing. But the unfortunate truth is that we don't have content that is made for US yet. Yes, we have T3 keys, but those lose flavor after a while. Hell, I'm sitting here with every single prime weapon and I mostly play to Forma my existing gear or to play with the new gear. We don't have any good content that is scaled to our level, and in order to GET to ANY content that is scaled to our level, we have to wait through 20, 30 minutes of lower end stuff, just to get to the content that tests our mettle. Sure, Nightmare missions alleviate that gap a little, but they're still not enough. We are looking at the game from the viewpoint of your level 30 character on Borderlands and noticing a distinct lack of end boss because the developers haven't gotten there yet and THAT is the unfortunate truth of an unfinished game and we have to realize that. 

I think I rambled a bit too long, but here's the TL;DR

We're playing an unfinished game. High end players have nothing to challenge them yet. DE knows, DE is working on it. 

Scaling is in place to keep players from skipping straight to the few end-ish game content areas that we DO have. 

Scaling is an attempt to mold the player experience towards traversing the star chart instead of picking and choosing. 

Flat Damage is probably not a good choice for this game due to the nature of the game and the content and the ease with which you could skip content. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by Drakontis

[Ritchel]

mods arent OP, if they nerf attack mods there will be no added newer mobs / race that is tougher

 

all we need is tougher - high level - planets with big &#! mobs that promotes teamplay

[DJ_Redwire]

At the end of the day I would really like mods to be about adjusting mechanics to fit my preferences. If freeing up a slot or slots because I no longer have to depend on pure damage addition and/or multi-shot allows me to do that, then I'm all for it.

[ToeSama]

Scaling is an attempt to mold the player experience towards traversing the star chart instead of picking and choosing. 

Flat Damage is probably not a good choice for this game due to the nature of the game and the content and the ease with which you could skip content. 

 

This would be a thing if Warframe wasn't a clusterfluck of nonsense for a totally new player without aid. As of now, there's no concern to it, because those that can't skip content in such a way will be stuck in Mercury Vensu and Mars for potentially ages before finally getting what they need to move on.

 

These are my two favorite adjacent sentences I've seen on this forum in a long time.

 

I calls it likes I sees it XD

Edited February 28, 2014 by ToeSama

[Calayne]

I do have a decent but of freedom with modding. Sure, a lot of it is adding numbers but there are still some mods that you can mess around with. Like straight up fire rate and reload speed on the twin vipers, it's effective and awfully fun be it ammo consuming but that's why I use ammo mutator.

Or pure status on the grinlock so I can just keep proccing on enemies and seeing how badly I can weaken them.

Or just super magazine size with minigun type weapons for a blizzard of bullets

Or thunderbolt spam with bows

There is freedom, not as much as there should be but it's better than the stat system that was in the alpha. There's only no freedom if you are a DPS hog.

 

It can be better still. Because as it is now, everyone has to be a DPS hog. You try simply going into a T3 mission with one maxed Serration and no split-chamber. The fact that we have to rely on so many damage mods is utterly strange. Players in T3 range anywhere from ineffectual butt-licking to Reality-Tearing-World-Ender power levels. That is to say, there is a difference between someone who can't kill anyone at all just because he has less-than-stellar DPS, and those whose DPS is so high, he could play alone.

 

True, there is a choice in how you spec your weapons. But do you realise that is so heavily dependent on your gun that there is hardly any alternative? Our stats are so far away from one another, you can't possibly say "I like the Karak because it is a decent balance of damage and status". You'll say "Karak? Yeah, that DPS is sick", or "Soma? Yeah, that DPS is sick", or "Penta? Yeah, I blow myself up in one hit".

 

Fast hands, eagle eye, stabilizer, suppressor, metal auger, rifle aptitude and a few others are the right way to customize your gun. This is freedom. More magazine size? Naw, I prefer to reload faster. Higher zoom? Naw, I prefer better recoil control. Stacking damage mod upon damage mod like bacon over waffles is insane.

 

There is a choice now, no doubt: Either follow the DPS build, or die in T3. That's the choice. 

 

And to those who say we need these damage mods, I say unto you: We do not. We just need to balance the enemies. They can be harder than standard, but manageable to all, even without the most optimized damage builds. It would just be slightly more difficult, rather than impossible as it is now. But to balance the enemies, the first thing we need to balance is the way we deal and receive damage. We therefore start with mods. Specifically, damage mods, because this is the most pressing issue.

 

And as for damage scaling, no one says we shouldn't have progression. There's the fun of levelling things, of course. But the way it is now, it's just way too out of whack. Read Volt Cruelerz' stuff on that. He's got some pretty insightful changes. Seriously. The key issue in these type of discussions is predictability and the gap in power. That, and in most cases, choice. As I see it now, there really isn't many. All my Mod loadouts look almost the same from one weapon to another. What does that say about choice?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Calayne

[Drakontis]

This would be a thing if Warframe wasn't a clusterfluck of nonsense for a totally new player without aid. As of now, there's no concern to it, because those that can't skip content in such a way will be stuck in Mercury Vensu and Mars for potentially ages before finally getting what they need to move on.

 

That's probably due to the fact that it can take a new player a while to get mods like Serration and Hornet Strike, yes? When I first started, I'll admit, did not have that problem. But back then, we were dropping fewer cores and more ACTUAL MODS. It's somewhat unfortunate that we have to deal with that shift in the low end planets where we need MORE ACTUAL MODS and LESS CORES. Give new players a better chance at getting their basics, THEN throw cores into their faces until they bleeeeeed. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

That's the point. Progression in terms of damage and usability is based on mods, this is the reason why they got rid of leveling allows you to spend skill points on weapons to make them better in alpha. It's boring and shows a lack of freedom. With mods I can have so many different builds that are useful and interesting even if I still use the usual required mods. Leveling up just allows you to put more mods in and even adds a small management minigame in trying to fit as much into your gun as you can.

I think you're missing the whole point the mods exist.

If you think there's variability, it's because you're electing to forego damage.  That's fine and your decision, but the fact is, most players are going to cram as much damage on there as they can.  Will all min-max as I've done?  No, of course not.  I've been spreadsheeting for months to try to maximize everything for the sake of balance discussions.

 

Level-up stats were removed from weapons during beta (U7) because "there's nothing that they did that mods couldn't do."  The devs saw them as redundant.  Mods are supposed to be ways to tweak our weapon, but instead, in actuality, they are our weapons.  Player growth isn't determined by mastery or anything else.  It's determined by the size of your mod collection.

 

-snip-

Removing leveling would be a poor decision, I agree.  The problem is player growth.  Let's consider the options of where all we could transfer power growth:

 

1. current system where damage scales with RNG*grind*weapon level due to mod collection size*quality

Pros: no work involved

Cons: does not allow balance because player growth is violent and unpredictable

 

2. weapon leveling

Pros: easy to do and the game used to have this functionality before U7

Cons: while no longer reliant on RNG*grind, it still is violently unpredictable because you never know where a player is going to be.  Functionally, this is almost the same as no levels at all.

 

3. remove all damage mods

Pros: very easy to perform and makes balance very easy because there is no damage scaling.

Cons: would cause an uproar like none other; removes any semblance of "RPG-ness" from the game and gets rid of "playing for funzies" where you go back and vaporize lower-leveled content just for the perverse sense of joy it causes

 

4. Mastery

Pros: intrinsically tied to long-term player progression, making it more predictable than its counterparts

Cons: hardest to implement

 

5. hybrid of some sort

Pros: none

Cons: really all a hybrid is going to do is inherit the negative qualities from its parent constituents

 

I vote option 4 and have a thread on the subject.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Drakontis]

If you think there's variability, it's because you're electing to forego damage.  That's fine and your decision, but the fact is, most players are going to cram as much damage on there as they can.  Will all min-max as I've done?  No, of course not.  I've been spreadsheeting for months to try to maximize everything for the sake of balance discussions.

 

Level-up stats were removed from weapons during beta (U7) because "there's nothing that they did that mods couldn't do."  The devs saw them as redundant.  Mods are supposed to be ways to tweak our weapon, but instead, in actuality, they are our weapons.  Player growth isn't determined by mastery or anything else.  It's determined by the size of your mod collection.

 

Removing leveling would be a poor decision, I agree.  The problem is player growth.  Let's consider the options of where all we could transfer power growth:

 

4. Mastery

Pros: intrinsically tied to long-term player progression, making it more predictable than its counterparts

Cons: hardest to implement

 

 

I vote option 4 and have a thread on the subject.

Unfortunately, with this, you have no scaling for new players, which means that ultimately, you have the same problem as not finding Serration in early game. Until you rank up the Mk1 Braton to x level, you're not going to get out of those first few planets. Not to mention the fact that building mastery requires you to either buy slots or recycle slots. Mastery is difficult to build when you start and at the end, you still have no content for high end folks. But it is an interesting idea. 

In the end, all systems are flawed in one way or another. Removing RNG for damage mods, however, is a great way to go, but hampers new players who don't have as much opportunity to get weapons that high end players do. 

[Annnoth]

It can be better still. Because as it is now, everyone has to be a DPS hog. You try simply going into a T3 mission with one maxed Serration and no split-chamber. The fact that we have to rely on so many damage mods is utterly strange. Players in T3 range anywhere from ineffectual butt-licking to Reality-Tearing-World-Ender power levels. That is to say, there is a difference between someone who can't kill anyone at all just because he has less-than-stellar DPS, and those whose DPS is so high, he could play alone.

True, there is a choice in how you spec your weapons. But do you realise that is so heavily dependent on your gun that there is hardly any alternative? Our stats are so far away from one another, you can't possibly say "I like the Karak because it is a decent balance of damage and status". You'll say "Karak? Yeah, that DPS is sick", or "Soma? Yeah, that DPS is sick", or "Penta? Yeah, I blow myself up in one hit".

Fast hands, eagle eye, stabilizer, suppressor, metal auger, rifle aptitude and a few others are the right way to customize your gun. This is freedom. More magazine size? Naw, I prefer to reload faster. Higher zoom? Naw, I prefer better recoil control. Stacking damage mod upon damage mod like bacon over waffles is insane.

There is a choice now, no doubt: Either follow the DPS build, or die in T3. That's the choice.

And to those who say we need these damage mods, I say unto you: We do not. We just need to balance the enemies. They can be harder than standard, but manageable to all, even without the most optimized damage builds. It would just be slightly more difficult, rather than impossible as it is now. But to balance the enemies, the first thing we need to balance is the way we deal and receive damage. We therefore start with mods. Specifically, damage mods, because this is the most pressing issue.

And as for damage scaling, no one says we shouldn't have progression. There's the fun of levelling things, of course. But the way it is now, it's just way too out of whack. Read Volt Cruelerz' stuff on that. He's got some pretty insightful changes. Seriously. The key issue in these type of discussions is predictability and the gap in power. That, and in most cases, choice. As I see it now, there really isn't many. All my Mod loadouts look almost the same from one weapon to another. What does that say about choice?

I actually have gone through T3's with low level gear. Because of the power Creep in this game it was pretty easy. Also this isn't solely warframes fault, look at any game with high level end game content. There is no freedom there, you a either do X or bust. I doubt I can be a priest in world of Warcraft who does other things except heals in massive end game raids, or in load out when I'm fighting high level players, sure the game has billions of weapon combos but at that point only 10 are useful.

End game in many games are like this, at a certain point you lose freedom because you have to do the most efficient thing not the most fun thing.

This point only applies to T3 void, everywhere else in the game which is what most people would play, this point doesn't apply because you don't have to be a DPS hog.

All this is from my personal experience with games, I'm sure there are games that have high level end games that don't require the most efficient tactic.

Edited February 28, 2014 by theharddrinkingapplejack

[Calayne]

Unfortunately, with this, you have no scaling for new players, which means that ultimately, you have the same problem as not finding Serration in early game. Until you rank up the Mk1 Braton to x level, you're not going to get out of those first few planets. Not to mention the fact that building mastery requires you to either buy slots or recycle slots. Mastery is difficult to build when you start and at the end, you still have no content for high end folks. But it is an interesting idea. 

In the end, all systems are flawed in one way or another. Removing RNG for damage mods, however, is a great way to go, but hampers new players who don't have as much opportunity to get weapons that high end players do. 

 

Weapons are actually much easier to get than mods. And we all started without Serration, anyways. 

 

Also, to respond to your statements, Volt actually said something to me about a similar question: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/181670-de-why-i-give-up-on-warframes-balance/?p=2128104

 

 

 

I actually have gone through T3's with low level gear. Because of the power Creep in this game it was pretty easy.

 

Define low level gear. :P

 

And were your team mates also using the same kind of low level gear?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Calayne

[Annnoth]

Weapons are actually much easier to get than mods. And we all started without Serration, anyways.

Also, to respond to your statements, Volt actually said something to me about a similar question: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/181670-de-why-i-give-up-on-warframes-balance/?p=2128104

Define low level gear. :P

And were your team mates also using the same kind of low level gear?

It was just me and 1 other person who used rank 15 flux rifles non potatoed to see how well it would go. Also check my post again, I added onto it. Edited February 28, 2014 by theharddrinkingapplejack

[shut]

Absolutely 100% yes. Mod scaling is a huge issue in this game, and has been for months.

 

Right now, new players are finding it mathematically impossible to do much more than tickle mid-leveled enemies like Alad V, while "veterans" can simply blow them apart in a matter of seconds. The new player feels useless. The veteran finds the fight unfulfilling.

In the end, neither player enjoyed the fight.

 

The effect of the mod system is, in its current state, reminiscent of Maplestory and Vindictus-- completely Stat2Win. The mod system in its current state causes the game to function as a series of stat walls, which should never be the case in any shooting game. There's a stupidly large gap between modded and unmodded weaponry, and it needs to be lowered.

 

 

This is a shooting game. It shouldn't be so damn stat-based.

Edited February 28, 2014 by SortaRandom