Melee 2.0: Shiny, But Useless Toy.

[NightBeats]

Yes. The new melee system that hasn't been released and you haven't tested yet will be useless. That's why Steve was able to beat a Pluto Exterminate mission with just a Skana. Which isn't viable at all with the current system. Because Melee 2.0 is utterly worthless. Right.

 

People are @(*()$ stupid.

[Nash]

New melee system will be useless. It can be "beautiful", "imbalanced", "glitchy" etc - but it will be useless in real game.

 

 

Let's make it clean - Warframe is TPS with simplified combat mechanics. Game balance designed for a gunfight, and also has other problems on its own.

 

Main problems:

1) Ranged weapon master race.

It's quite simple: Risk vs. Reward. Ranged weapons have a minimal risk, but highest reward. You can kill enemies one by one from cover, or kite infected without the slightest danger. Moreover, ranged weapon has the highest damage, can penetrate obstacles (modding) and has a large reserve of ammunition (it can be replenished during the mission).

 

2) Powers.

Press 4 to win. To be invisible. To be immortal. To wipe room. To control room. To be contined...

 

3) Game balance.

a) СС problems - inevitable and irresistible control effects.

b) Tank vs late game - insane damage from high level enemies can easy kill any tank. It's fight of glasscannons.

с) Lack of combat etiquette - enemies can freely attack you in crowds, without any hindrances.

 

 

 

What need to be done for REAL Melee 2.0:

1) Absolute block and parry system.

Not DMC, but Jedy Knight and Metal Gear Rising battle type.

 

a) Bullet deflection - when you hold melee weapon, all "light" ranged attacks reflected automaticly. If you attack, it's changed to damage reduction - signifcantly lowered ranged damage.

b) Absolute block - special block can hold any sort of attack, defend from any CC effect.

c) Parry and counter - time-stricted action. Can open enemy for deadly/very strong (for bosses and leaders) counterattack, return "heavy" projectile to sender.

 

"Light" = bullets, plasma projectiles, etc. - any "usual" shot.

"Heavy" = rockets, Milter's disks, etc.

"Irresistible" = sniper's shot - сan not be parried or reflected, blockable only.

 

2) Enemy diversity.

All fractions adopted to modern warfare. They create new armor, shields and tactics to counter gunfire. What's why Way of the Sword is still alive - Tenno sword can beat unbeateable.

 

 

3) HP, tanking and CC system rework.

a) Rework of defence - defence modules with better effect. Real tank must miltigate some damage even on high levels, even from most dangerous enemies.

b) Stricted CC - all control effects can be avoided or blocked. There isn't any "insta-AOE-knockdown" or "infinity-chain-of-stuns". Handspring for free.

 

"You just wanna faceroll Pluto/T3/Nightmare!"

I want a chance to use my sword against Grineer squad or pack of Ancients/Chargers. Without the risk of being killed on the spot/controlled to the death.

 

 

4) Stricked ammunition for ranged weapon.

Each weapon should be limited to 1-3 clips. Supply of ammunition should be significantly limited. Ammo drops must die.

On Defence/Survival Lotus give you ammo drops.

 

That's the way to balance everything without nerfs. Use your gun now, or keep ammo for future boss? Kill this crowd with rocket launcher or take down armored leader without melee battle? Choices and decisions.

 

 

5) Stricked powers.

CD's and "rage" concept - you can gain energy only for damage/kill, melee give more energy.

 

 

 

P.S. "It's too difficult, you want to destroy the fun!"

I want VIABLE melee - not just funny toy. And simple shooter with unlimited powers can't have viable melee - there is just no way. It's question of game balance - every "melee orientated game" must strict ranged weapons.

It seems you are forgeting this is Beta.

another thing you are forgetting is that there is a wide variety of mods; some needs to be worked and some needs to be included.

Powers are one thing, but you are getting controlled by mobs lol you are obviously doing something wrong. You obviously need to stop maximizing your power strength, duration, etc and experiment with other mods. You aren't a real Warframe just another player watching people like mogamu and peoples choice gaming make their builds and copy from it. Though what can I say I'm just a Rhino Prime who can survive till lvl60+ mobs without Iron skin simply because I stopped being a filthy casual and Mastered my Warframe by adding Shields, HP, and Armor with HP Regeneration to my frame instead of the typical Blind rage + Focus efficiency Build used by most Rhinos. I bet your Dumb &#! Didnt even know that with the Retribution mod if you get hit by a melee attacker or a shooter at close range you could use a counter attack when they get stunned. Ha Melee 2.0 already in your goddamn face and I've been using it for a long time Enjoying my day to day warframe gamplay watching enemies butchers die as soon as they touch me and using my ankyros prime to break necks in the middle of combat no stealth required Simply because I chose to experiment. Meanwhile you over here complaining about Warframe needing to be changed, ya it needs to be worked on but remeber you create your gameplay not them.

 

Edited April 8, 2014 by FuIIFrontaI

[qthk]

Too long, sorry

 

 

[ScorchedIce]

Don't like it? go make your own game like that
Also what the F***, did you even watch the stream? why are you asking for things they DID add, you sh¡tlord?!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Hecadisth

[Kamal965]

Don't like it? go make your own game like that

Also what the F***, did you even watch the stream? why are you asking for things they DID add, you sh¡tlord?!

 

To be fair, this was posted before the stream happened. Like, ages before it.

[Mak_Gohae]

New melee system will be useless. It can be "beautiful", "imbalanced", "glitchy" etc - but it will be useless in real game.

 

 

Let's make it clean - Warframe is TPS with simplified combat mechanics. Game balance designed for a gunfight, and also has other problems on its own.

 

Main problems:

1) Ranged weapon master race.

It's quite simple: Risk vs. Reward. Ranged weapons have a minimal risk, but highest reward. You can kill enemies one by one from cover, or kite infected without the slightest danger. Moreover, ranged weapon has the highest damage, can penetrate obstacles (modding) and has a large reserve of ammunition (it can be replenished during the mission).

 

 

There are mods that make melee less risky, there are also maneuvers and abilities that help with that. If you are going to judge the system based on a specific player that wants absolutely nothing but the safest method of attack then you are going to pretty much base the game on exactly ONE single method of play. Which, needless to say, is extremely problematic.

 

The different methods of attack should be hefty enough to give people that to use that specific method the option to do it. That's all any player can ask. I remember early in close beta i use the afuris as main weapon and everyone laughed cause the eat ammo super quick and so on. So i modded for that and shot people in the face and it was fine.

 

As long as they let people have the option is fine. This is not supposed to replace anything else at all.

 

 

2) Powers.

Press 4 to win. To be invisible. To be immortal. To wipe room. To control room. To be contined...

 

3) Game balance.

a) СС problems - inevitable and irresistible control effects.

b) Tank vs late game - insane damage from high level enemies can easy kill any tank. It's fight of glasscannons.

с) Lack of combat etiquette - enemies can freely attack you in crowds, without any hindrances.

 

This is not supposed to be the best method of attack in every situation. If you press 4 to clear 5 enemies... that's you. But if 5 enemies can be cleared with melee then the option is there. If people are lazy people are lazy.

 

3a- There are mods that can counter CC

 

b- There is actually no tanking in this game, people pushing stats in a certain way does not actually mean that this type of play exist. This just means that you can mess with the system to make it appear like this is in the game. This game is basically a top-down shooter where you have to be evading the enemy putting yourself in a better position. The frames that can avoid damage just make that evading a bit easier.

 

c- like i said above, top-down shooter, all the enemies jut come at you and you are supposed to evade and counter.

 

 

What need to be done for REAL Melee 2.0:

1) Absolute block and parry system.

Not DMC, but Jedy Knight and Metal Gear Rising battle type.

 

a) Bullet deflection - when you hold melee weapon, all "light" ranged attacks reflected automaticly. If you attack, it's changed to damage reduction - signifcantly lowered ranged damage.

b) Absolute block - special block can hold any sort of attack, defend from any CC effect.

c) Parry and counter - time-stricted action. Can open enemy for deadly/very strong (for bosses and leaders) counterattack, return "heavy" projectile to sender.

 

"Light" = bullets, plasma projectiles, etc. - any "usual" shot.

"Heavy" = rockets, Milter's disks, etc.

"Irresistible" = sniper's shot - сan not be parried or reflected, blockable only.

 

I dont know what absolute block means but if you mean unlimited blocking.... nope. Enemies have to have a chance, specially when playing against people cause, you know, they be dumb.

 

a-Bullet deflection happens when you block, auto blocking can be done with a mod.

b- there are mods that give you chance to ignore cc.

c- there is a mod that if you block an enemy melee attack it knocks them down. And this promotes getting close because the tactic here is running at the enemy to get to melee range and making them attack you so you could counter it.

 

 

3) HP, tanking and CC system rework.

a) Rework of defence - defence modules with better effect. Real tank must miltigate some damage even on high levels, even from most dangerous enemies.

b) Stricted CC - all control effects can be avoided or blocked. There isn't any "insta-AOE-knockdown" or "infinity-chain-of-stuns". Handspring for free.

 

"You just wanna faceroll Pluto/T3/Nightmare!"

I want a chance to use my sword against Grineer squad or pack of Ancients/Chargers. Without the risk of being killed on the spot/controlled to the death.

 

There is no tanking in this game.

Anyway, what would be the point of CCs if they can be avoided or blocked? All you would need to do when you spot a CC enemy is to run towards it and make them use their attack so you could block it and be safe. Which is exactly what i mentioned above with the knockdown counter.  What you are basically doing is leaving the enemy with only one method of attack.

 

4) Stricked ammunition for ranged weapon.

Each weapon should be limited to 1-3 clips. Supply of ammunition should be significantly limited. Ammo drops must die.

On Defence/Survival Lotus give you ammo drops.

 

That's the way to balance everything without nerfs. Use your gun now, or keep ammo for future boss? Kill this crowd with rocket launcher or take down armored leader without melee battle? Choices and decisions.

 

I agree with this, back when there was less ammo it was more fun. People actually aimed for weak spots, sniper rifles came into actual play because 72 bullets could mean 72 deaths, and there was a point in using the item system. With the almost unlimited ammo we got now the game turned into what we see where tons of enemy poor out because that's how you counter so many bullets available.

 

5) Stricked powers.

CD's and "rage" concept - you can gain energy only for damage/kill, melee give more energy.

 

I agree with this too but the problem is that with the mod system you can push you stats in ways that override standards of play.

[letir]

Don't like it? go make your own game like that

Also what the F***, did you even watch the stream? why are you asking for things they DID add, you sh¡tlord?!

much hate

wow

[Elfhorys]

Don't like it? go make your own game like that

Also what the F***, did you even watch the stream? why are you asking for things they DID add, you sh¡tlord?!

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img833/7192/slwmh.jpg

Edited April 8, 2014 by Elfhorys

[TrockBronze]

Actually, historical examples of ninjas use everything available to them, including farming implements and tools, poisons, and even firearms.  

and Warframes aren't Ninja, they are Tenno and a Tenno can be anything, hence we have a pirate coming out, we already have a tank, a fairy king and so on, and yes a few ninja, but not everything has to be ninja.

[Speshii]

Deflecting bullets with a Skarna isn't space ninja enough for you?

man you have some issues, I was getting bored until I saw 2.0 in action.

you can still used guns or start chaining melee for some serious damage,

I was sold when I saw the back breaker finisher( had to change my pants for that one).

Hydroid I took an instant disliking to, bloody pirates what's next dinosaurs?

[Blueicyhydra]

LoL on this guy melee will scale even more than guns u know. This is from combos the higher ur combo is the higher ur dmg that means u can go up to infinity in dmg, but a gun has a cap to its max dps or dmg. So by going melee u could get like 100k dmg in one strike eventually and more but for a gun u will be stuck at a dps of like 20k or such.

[Deidaku]

I'm still wondering why Letter13 hasn't locked this....

it's becoming like that other "I don't want new melee" thread

[KingTaro]

Made a video that I posted in the other thread demonstrating that melee can be very effective.

In this video, I'm demonstrating fast-slide, as I call it, in an invasion mission. You can clear an invasion in less than 5 min if you only use a melee weapon. But off course it's much more efficient to use ultimates here and there while clearing enemies on your path with you melee, preferably with a polearm or a staff.

 

 

This tactic works great in endless missions as well.

 

As you can see bellow, pretty much all the kills were done with the melee weapon.

 

 

 

 

[Dalu__Ka]

Why is this ridiculous thread still alive?

[Triburos]

Made a video that I posted in the other thread demonstrating that melee can be very effective.

In this video, I'm demonstrating fast-slide, as I call it, in an invasion mission. You can clear an invasion in less than 5 min if you only use a melee weapon. But off course it's much more efficient to use ultimates here and there while clearing enemies on your path with you melee, preferably with a polearm or a staff.

 

This tactic works great in endless missions as well.

Gotta go fast.

[Warriorrogue]

Why is this ridiculous thread still alive?

I dunno.

Hey letter, you closed the other one, we could do with you here!

[Vertutame]

Oh, have you try Melee 2.0 yet?

No?

 

So keep it to yourself.

I think it's okay for the guy to show his opinion and that make him more than a robot who keep playing it even it's getting boring.

[Charismo]

who keep playing it even it's getting boring.

 

Who does that?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Charismo

[TheGuyver]

Made a video that I posted in the other thread demonstrating that melee can be very effective.

In this video, I'm demonstrating fast-slide, as I call it, in an invasion mission. You can clear an invasion in less than 5 min if you only use a melee weapon. But off course it's much more efficient to use ultimates here and there while clearing enemies on your path with you melee, preferably with a polearm or a staff.

 

 

This tactic works great in endless missions as well.

 

As you can see bellow, pretty much all the kills were done with the melee weapon.

 

 

 

 

 

As impressive as this is, I would like to see it done as well without a rhino prime being used. I realize that it's a popular frame, but I feel that it's a bit of a crutch with that big of a shield and the defensive capabilities on the frame. While melee can be used effectively at the moment, it just seemed like a crutch for the basis of the video.

[Triburos]

As impressive as this is, I would like to see it done as well without a rhino prime being used. I realize that it's a popular frame, but I feel that it's a bit of a crutch with that big of a shield and the defensive capabilities on the frame. While melee can be used effectively at the moment, it just seemed like a crutch for the basis of the video.

To be fair, melee in it's current form is mainly viable for those who can buff their melee.

Rhino Prime's defense might be a crutch, but so would Loki and Ash with their invisibility, which is practically god mode. So that's a crutch as well. Sayrn to a lesser extent.

Hey, if you got a crutch, use it.

[KingTaro]

As impressive as this is, I would like to see it done as well without a rhino prime being used. I realize that it's a popular frame, but I feel that it's a bit of a crutch with that big of a shield and the defensive capabilities on the frame. While melee can be used effectively at the moment, it just seemed like a crutch for the basis of the video.

 

Indeed, in the current melee system, not every frame is capable of performing well using only melee.

But there are still quite a few frames that do great.

 

Rhino, Ash, Loki, Trinity and Valkyr would be your best choices for melee. But Zephyr, Mag, Volt, Frost and Saryn, perform very well as well.

Because, when you fast-slide, the enemies have a hard time hitting you.

[FuryEnder]

To everyone complaining about the heavy unit knockdowns, simply bait them into doing one, and then finish them!

It's simple, it's effective, and it solves your problem.

Instead of rushing blindly into combat expecting everything to go well, why don't you use a bit of strategy instead?

Also, Letter13 thread is too OP pls nerf kthxbai.

[Mak_Gohae]

To everyone complaining about the heavy unit knockdowns, simply bait them into doing one, and then finish them!

It's simple, it's effective, and it solves your problem.

Instead of rushing blindly into combat expecting everything to go well, why don't you use a bit of strategy instead?

Also, Letter13 thread is too OP pls nerf kthxbai.

 

If you are really lazy just bring shade and run at them. After getting knocked down you automatically hide because you are not shooting. But with this tactic you need to keep the sentinel alive.

[Eruend]

You know, someone here asked "who in their right mind would jump into a crowd of 30 enemies and knife them?"

 

I have...

 

Several times.

 

And won.

 

Pre-melee 2.0

 

I also tend to take down entire rooms with my melee before my three allies can even line up their shots.

 

And no, flamethrower grineer aren't my bane. I'm theirs.

 

Not trying to toot my horn, just saying that most of the comments about guns being all mighty compared to swords are BS. People who bash melee here just don't know how to use it, or care to do so. Come melee 2,0, people will have fun with it. No ands ifs or buts about it, and that's all that matters. It's not about "who's the best", it's about what's fun. So stop all your useless prattling and just try it out. If you don't like it, stick to using guns. It's not like they'll vanish, and no one will belittle  you for avoiding melee.

 

The game is a TPS going hybrid into melee, and doing a far better job at it then people give it credit for. The twerps saying "you can't out-do guns with melee" keep forgetting that we're all cyber/mutant space ninjas in power armor. Your argument is invalid.

 

Long story short, cut the **** and just play the game.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Eruend

[Skoplio]

You know, someone here asked "who in their right mind would jump into a crowd of 30 enemies and knife them?"

 

I have...

 

Several times.

 

And won.

 

Pre-melee 2.0

 

I also tend to take down entire rooms with my melee before my three allies can even line up their shots.

 

And no, flamethrower grineer aren't my bane. I'm theirs.

 

Not trying to toot my horn, just saying that most of the comments about guns being all mighty compared to swords are BS. People who bash melee here just don't know how to use it, or care to do so. Come melee 2,0, people will have fun with it. No ands ifs or buts about it, and that's all that matters. It's not about "who's the best", it's about what's fun. So stop all your useless prattling and just try it out. If you don't like it, stick to using guns. It's not like they'll vanish, and no one will belittle  you for avoiding melee.

 

The game is a TPS going hybrid into melee, and doing a far better job at it then people give it credit for. The twerps saying "you can't out-do guns with melee" keep forgetting that we're all cyber/mutant space ninjas in power armor. Your argument is invalid.

 

Long story short, cut the **** and just play the game.

Coudln't agree more. All type of combat is viable in this game, with the lone exception of casting damage abilities in high levels. I've seen dudes clear rooms with sidearms faster than many people can with a primary. Also melee is good in this game, it just needed the block increase and strafe that they are introducing in u13. People saying, guns will always be better, well if the person has fun killing mobs in melee, and considering that guns can't block bullets and melee can, I think melee trades off pretty well range for the ability to block oncoming bullets, thus making a safe transition to the enemy, taking far less damage you would take with a gun and still be able to kill those mobs. And also, from the comments I read, few people have actually listened or even watched the last Devstream. First of all, there will be combos for melee, with which you can dispatch a group of enemies or a single heavier unit easily. Second, they removed those slow charge attacks that everybdoy used to spam, so now you have this charge mechanic that lets you channel your energy pool to increase your melee damage. Third, with the removing of charge attacks, there will only be normal attacks, which leads to frames being far more mobile than before, since the major problem of charge attacking was that while charging up, enemies could reduce you to a pulp if you're not careful. Fourth, new melee is going to help out warframes like Excalibur and especially Valkyr, who are melee based. Loki and Ash will be good as well if people choose to melee with them. I think the new Melee 2.0 will give melee lovers a chance at playing with only melee. One of the devs said that with the new system, he could pass all the levels in pluto with only a skana, which means that, given the skana is basically the weakest melee weapon in the game, better melee weapons are able to perform even more outstandingly.